Those who are unspiritual are not walking in the Spirit, but are walking in the flesh.Johnlove said:
Happy thanksgiving!
Do you believe Jesus has given you the Holy Spirit?
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Happy thanksgiving!
[SIZE=16pt]They were baptized in Jesus name, and were not yet spiritual. That had to be because they were part of the Christian Community. [/SIZE]evangelist-7 said:
[SIZE=16pt]To be spiritual one has to have the indwelling of God. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]And again all you posted to me is your opinion. Notice in the following scripture Jesus tells us what one has to do to have the indwelling of God.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](John 14: 23) “Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](John 14: 21) “Anybody who receives my commandments and keeps them will be one who loves me; and anybody who loves me will be loved by My Father, and I shall love him and show myself to him.” [/SIZE]
Wormwood
Chaps
Johnlove,
I do not think it is wise to discount a clear promise in the Scriptures due to an unusual situation where the Gospel was preached in Samaria for the first time. If you knew the Scriptures, you would know that there are three unusual bestowals of the Holy Spirit with signs in the book of Acts that correspond to the command of Jesus. Jesus said they would preach the Gospel in Jerusalem and Judea, Samaria and the uttermost parts of the world. The Holy Spirit falls during Pentecost on the disciples in Jerusalem. The Holy Spirit is bestowed with the laying on of hands when he is first preached in Samaria, and he falls in a similar manner in Acts 10 when the Gospel is first preached to the Gentiles in Acts 10. These are not normative situations, but are signs to show God's acceptance of Samaritans and Gentiles. Finding exceptions in narratives to discount clear proclamations in the Bible that are given to "all who are far off" is unwise.
I do not think it is wise to discount a clear promise in the Scriptures due to an unusual situation where the Gospel was preached in Samaria for the first time. If you knew the Scriptures, you would know that there are three unusual bestowals of the Holy Spirit with signs in the book of Acts that correspond to the command of Jesus. Jesus said they would preach the Gospel in Jerusalem and Judea, Samaria and the uttermost parts of the world. The Holy Spirit falls during Pentecost on the disciples in Jerusalem. The Holy Spirit is bestowed with the laying on of hands when he is first preached in Samaria, and he falls in a similar manner in Acts 10 when the Gospel is first preached to the Gentiles in Acts 10. These are not normative situations, but are signs to show God's acceptance of Samaritans and Gentiles. Finding exceptions in narratives to discount clear proclamations in the Bible that are given to "all who are far off" is unwise.
You are misquoting scripture. Jesus said that those who love Him will keep His word. You changed "word" to "commandments" to justify your ideology that the Holy Spirit is not given until one has cleaned up his behavior. The bible says otherwise. In every case where we see people receive the Spirit in Acts, it was simply by the hearing of faith. There was no mention of them jumping any behavioral hoops. In fact, Paul used that exact term in his letter to the Galatians in asking them if they received the Spirit by the works of law or by the hearing of faith. You are insisting that it is by the works of law. You are in error. Paul did not give both equal status. It was one or the other. Paul also told the Corinthians that we have received the Spirit of God that we might know the things freely given by God (1Cor.2:12). In Rom.8:32, we find that all things come to us freely through Christ. This is also confirmed in the 5th chapter of Romans, where both life and righteousness are called free gifts. In your world, righteousness is not a gift. In your world it is a conscious decision, which is rewarded by the indwelling of the Spirit. There's nothing free about that.Johnlove said:
But you have made this error, I assume through someone teaching you. What is missing is the understanding that once a person has come to the cross, his old man is considered to be crucified with Christ. A detailed study will reveal that the sin in us is attributed to the old man. However in the new birth we have been given a new spirit, born from God, which is our new man, which is created according to God in true righteousness and holiness (Eph.4:24).
As well, if you examine Rom.7, you will find that Paul because of his mindset in agreement with the law, no longer connected his identitiy with his sin. And this is the part that has escaped your comprehension. Because we have been crucified with Christ already for our sin and because we have a new nature within us, our eternal identity before God has also changed. We are no longer identifed according to our own behavior. We are identifed by grace, through faith, and through the new creation, as eternal and righteous. And it is all due to the righteousness and obedience of ONE MAN> (Rom.5:18,19).
And this is how and why in John 5:24, Jesus could make the incredible promise that those who hear His word and believes in HE who sent Him,....get this....HAS everlasting life....shall NOT come into judgement(unto condemnation)...and HAS passed from death to life. Back to the first point I made. Jesus said he who hears My word. What word? Try John 3:16 for starters. Try John 6:50,51 for starters. Want to be seen keeping His word? Try believing it for starters. As for keeping His commandments....1John3:23...." and this is His commandment; that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another as He has given us commandment".
In no way, shape, or form are we under a system by which we are justified by way of keeping the commandments of law.
As for His indwelling, my initial evidence 33 years ago was the giving of the gift of tongues. But my continuing evidence is in the assurance and guarantee of my inheritance, and the knowledge of that which is freely given by God. I do not produce any evidence from my own resources. It is within me as part and parcel of the free gift.
@ Johnlove ... if you don't have the Holy Spirit you are not saved, Paul said so in Romans 8:9,Johnlove said:
You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ
does not belong to him.
So if you don't have the Holy Spirit you're NOT part of God's family, and having said let's look at your statement;
[SIZE=16pt]"Yes you show me where anyone who still sinned had the indwelling of God."[/SIZE]
Let me respond to your statement like this, John said in 1 John 1:1:8 - 10 and 1 John 2:1
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive
us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the
Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
Who is John talking to believers or unbelievers ?
Believers of course ... and he is telling them that if any of you say that they have no sin the truth is not in you.
Why is he saying that ?
Because he knows that we as Christians do in fact sin.
Furthermore, if we as Christians do sin - and we all do so daily some to a lesser or greater degree - does God then remove his
Holy Spirit from us ?
No ... we confess our sins and God forgives us as John states in 1 John 1:9 and 1John 2:1.
So in conclusion;
"Yes you show me where anyone who still sinned had the indwelling of God."
Go look in the mirror ... you sin and God's Spirit is still with you.
The only person who can claim to be without sin is Jesus.
[SIZE=16pt]I answered this already, but will give you an even longer answer.[/SIZE]Enquirer said:
[SIZE=14pt](1 John 1: 8-10) “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]and his word has no place in our lives.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]You need to see John was saying if one says he or she says they have never sinned they are liars. [/SIZE]
If one is forgiven of all unrighteousness are they not then sinless? Could they then be liars if they say they are sinless?
John later says:
[SIZE=14pt](1 John 3:3-9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]seen Him or known Him[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]. [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]My children do not let anyone lead you astray’ to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy’ to lead a sinful life is to belong the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.” [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](1 John 3:8) “[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]John told us those who did not know God sinned and asked forgiveness and were forgiven, but once a person comes to know God he or she will not sin.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Scripture goes on to say that if a person who does know God uses their free will to sin there is no [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]repentance[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] for that person. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](Hebrews 10:26-31) “[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]. [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. [/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”[/SIZE]
Furthermore, if we as Christians do sin - and we all do so daily some to a lesser or greater degree - does God then remove his
Holy Spirit from us ?
No ... we confess our sins and God forgives us as John states in 1 John 1:9 and 1John 2:1.
So in conclusion;
"Yes you show me where anyone who still sinned had the indwelling of God."
[SIZE=16pt]Yes you have your assumptions, but they do not agree with the written Word of God.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](1 John 3:9) “No one, who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Ask yourself did Jesus sin. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](Romans 6: 11) “In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. ... “[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Paul told us we are to be dead to sin. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]To believe what you have been taught to believe you need to change what scripture says, or in some other way ignore much of scripture. [/SIZE]
Wormwood
Chaps
Johnlove,
No one agrees with you. More than that, the church has never taught such nonsense that once someone becomes a Christian they will never sin again. Paul opposed Peter to his face for his sin of bigotry and favoritism. Paul was in an argument about Barnabas that he later repented about. There is not one verse in the NT that suggests that a Christian will never sin. The verses you are quoting are talking about being dead to the bondage and penalty of sin, but it never says a true Christian will never sin. 1 John 3:9 has to do with false teachers that taught that if someone knew the secret knowledge bestowed by Christ, then they could do whatever they wanted with their flesh because the only thing that mattered was "gnosis" and spirit. 1 John 3:9 is a present participle if I recall correctly and is indicating that Christians will not live in perpetual sin as these false teachers were leading others toward.
Again, stop trying to teach and stop trying to claim you are free from any sin. You are loading people down with burdens and doing nothing to relieve them. According to what you have written on this site, it seems only those who have personal visits with Jesus, hear his voice, and never ever sin can really be called a disciple. Of course, you boast in your supposed experiences of all these things so as to lift yourself up as the only true believer with the Holy Spirit, who, just so happens to be taught only by the HS and cannot be corrected by anyone else. Your arrogance and delusions are baffling.
No one agrees with you. More than that, the church has never taught such nonsense that once someone becomes a Christian they will never sin again. Paul opposed Peter to his face for his sin of bigotry and favoritism. Paul was in an argument about Barnabas that he later repented about. There is not one verse in the NT that suggests that a Christian will never sin. The verses you are quoting are talking about being dead to the bondage and penalty of sin, but it never says a true Christian will never sin. 1 John 3:9 has to do with false teachers that taught that if someone knew the secret knowledge bestowed by Christ, then they could do whatever they wanted with their flesh because the only thing that mattered was "gnosis" and spirit. 1 John 3:9 is a present participle if I recall correctly and is indicating that Christians will not live in perpetual sin as these false teachers were leading others toward.
Again, stop trying to teach and stop trying to claim you are free from any sin. You are loading people down with burdens and doing nothing to relieve them. According to what you have written on this site, it seems only those who have personal visits with Jesus, hear his voice, and never ever sin can really be called a disciple. Of course, you boast in your supposed experiences of all these things so as to lift yourself up as the only true believer with the Holy Spirit, who, just so happens to be taught only by the HS and cannot be corrected by anyone else. Your arrogance and delusions are baffling.
[SIZE=16pt](1 John 3:5-6) John said if one sins they have never known Jesus.[/SIZE]Wormwood said:
[SIZE=16pt](1 John 2:6) John says to be in Jesus one has to walk as Jesus walked. Do you believe Jesus sinned? [/SIZE]
Wormwood
Chaps
"Sins" is a present participle (is sinning). It is describing the person who lives in perpetual sin. We are called to live holy and godly lives. Someone who lives a lifestyle of sin and claims to be a Christian is a liar. That is the point of the text. It is not teaching that a Christian will never sin or that if someone stumbles they do not have the Holy Spirit.
Born_Again
Well-Known Member
Wow. So after all of that, was I right or wrong in my question? I was my feeling that the Holy Spirit dwells in those who walk with Christ. What about an anointing? Surely the Holy spirit must dwell in them then....
[SIZE=16pt]Thanks for your opinion. Who taught you what you believe John was telling us?[/SIZE]Wormwood said:
[SIZE=16pt]Does it sound like John was saying a life style of sinning in the following verses? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](1 John 3:9)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](1 John 2:6)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]If one sins at all are they walking as Jesus walked. Or are they acting as Jesus acted?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Jesus personally taught me that a Christian no longer commits sin. That does not mean a life style of sin.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Hebrews says any sins not a life style of sins.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](Hebrews 10:26-31)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Now you have your opinion, and most likely your version of the English translation of the bible that you may use to confirm your opinion.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]I do not accept your version of the bible if it does not agree with those universally accept by the Church.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]So you and I can never agree, and we should accept our differences and agree to not discuss God with each other. Is that OK with you? [/SIZE]
Romans 7 is nice to examine, but have you come grips yet with Romans 6?williemac said:
In the space of 8 verses (16-23), Paul warns the Roman Christians 3 times
sin results in death.
Do you believe he meant physical death or spiritual death?
Paul did not found the church(es) at Rome.
Perhaps, Paul was unsure if the leaders had taught that wonderful truth:
"the wages of sin is death"
Or, was he actually warning those Roman believers that wonderful truth:
"the wages of sin is death"
John_14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
John_14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
1Jn_3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
"The whole function of the vessel is to receive something. Now get this clear: the vessel never becomes the liquid, nor the liquid the vessel. I add this because we humans are so proud that there creeps into us the idea that we can be deified. That is blasphemy. There is no such thing as self-deification, except that of Satan, the pseudo-God, and what we share with him. The divine can dwell in the human, but forever the human is the human and the divine the divine. God has said, "I will not give my glory to another." That is the vital importance of the vessel illustration: we are forever the container; He is that which we contain. That relationship never changes." (Norman Grubb, The Key to Everything. Fort Washington: Christian Literature Crusade. 1960.)
1Cor_6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
1Cor_6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
1Cor_6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
"Union with Christ is the central truth of the whole doctrine of salvation. ...There is no truth, therefore, more suited to impart confidence and strength, comfort and joy in the Lord than this one of union with Christ." (John Murray,Redemption: Accomplished and Applied.)
Axehead
John_14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
1Jn_3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
"The whole function of the vessel is to receive something. Now get this clear: the vessel never becomes the liquid, nor the liquid the vessel. I add this because we humans are so proud that there creeps into us the idea that we can be deified. That is blasphemy. There is no such thing as self-deification, except that of Satan, the pseudo-God, and what we share with him. The divine can dwell in the human, but forever the human is the human and the divine the divine. God has said, "I will not give my glory to another." That is the vital importance of the vessel illustration: we are forever the container; He is that which we contain. That relationship never changes." (Norman Grubb, The Key to Everything. Fort Washington: Christian Literature Crusade. 1960.)
1Cor_6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
1Cor_6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
1Cor_6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
"Union with Christ is the central truth of the whole doctrine of salvation. ...There is no truth, therefore, more suited to impart confidence and strength, comfort and joy in the Lord than this one of union with Christ." (John Murray,Redemption: Accomplished and Applied.)
Axehead
I have come to grips with the entire scope of Paul's teachings as they relate to one another. I must insist that there can be no contradictions between one doctrine and another. Paul called this leaven. We cannot mix opposite concepts together as though they have compatibility. So in regards to the wages of sin, I addressed this in my post. The old man is dead. We did not get away with our sin nature. God is not keeping mankind. He is doing away with mankind and creating a new species. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. Therefore, God's answer to the sin in man was to administer the justice required. He killed us. He did it through the sacrifice of His Son, and those who accept His offering and His plea to reconciliation are given an entirely new nature and the old man of sin is declared dead, although the physical death has not yet occured...for a good reason. . For this treasure is for now in an earthen vessel (2Cor.4:7). The sin nature s contained in the flesh. The new nature is contained in our new spirit man, which has been born of His seed, born of the Spirit of Christ. This new man is called "Christ in you". It is that which Jesus referred to as the new wineskin. The new wine is the Holy Spirit, Who comes and dwell within us, bringing the presence of the Father and the Son. This is a seperate reality from the new birth.evangelist-7 said:
I will offer an educated opinion and conclusion that if the wages of sin are still in play for the born again believer, then the death that Jesus died for us was merely a down payment and has no eternal value. You really ought to think that one through. Rom. 6 is not a warning to behave in order to maintain salvation and justification. If it was, Paul is contradicting the very chapters before and after this one. Rom. 6 is an exhortation to behave according to our new nature and not our old one. This is why I mentioned Rom.7. Paul in no way was under the delusion that we can walk a perfectly sinless life in this body. That is not the intent of his exhortation in Rom.6. Keep in mind that the law was not tolerant. If a person failed on any one point he became guilty of the whole law. Therefore if one is depending on his good behavior to remain right with God, he enters into a category that requires no variance at all...24/7, 365. We have been spared from this kind of scrutiny under the new covenant. Enter the promise of Jesus in John 5:24. If you think your version of Rom.6 supercedes what Jesus assured in that verse, then there's no more use even discussing this. Jesus said we would not come under judgment. Now, we know there is a judgment seat of Christ, and Jesus knew that too. So the judgement He was referring to had to have been the OTHER one at the Great White Throne....the one that confirms the destiny of the lost.
I know I have given you a lot to chew on, and for sure you are not motivated to change your position, for that would likely mean leaving your present church. I feel for you, You are locked in a performance relationship with the Father. Not even our own children are subject to such a burden. When they misbehave we discipline them. This is called chastening. Jesus assures us that all whom He loves, He rebukes and chastens. You have left no room for this in your doctrinal stance. All you have us looking forward to is condemnation to eternal death, making the blood of Jesus no more powerful than the blood of bulls and goats. Good luck with that.
FHII
Well-Known Member
- Apr 9, 2011
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Johnlove said:
[SIZE=medium]Wow! Look, I have some disputes with what Wormwood wrote too, but I have to lay that aside based on what you wrote.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]First off, I’m amazed anyone quotes 1 John as proof we have to stop sinning (in any way you want to put it). Reason being, it’s not a big secret how to deal with verses 3:9 and 2:6. Yes, real nice verses to support the “stop sinning” campaign. But it’s funny to see people hiding from the highly obvious verses like 1 John 1:8, which says “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves. Even the NIV says that. I don’t advocate sin, but if we do sin, we do have an advocate in Jesus Christ. That’s from 1 John 2:1. So appearently, there is hope (thank the Lord) for anyone who sins…. Yes, even if they still sin. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Next…. Ahh, ole Hebrews 10:26! One of the most loved verses of folks who love to put their righteousness on display before men! The verse in the NIV says, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left.” That’s all well and good, except for verse 25, which says we must not give up meeting together. This is talking about attending Church, and thus, the “deliberately keep on sinning” is talking about ONE particular sin, which is skipping Church. It’s NOT talking about all sins. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]If you want to debate that, fine. We will start at verse 1 of that chapter and it will be very clear that 1. grace covers all sins of the flesh, 2. if grace doesn’t cover past, present and future sins, it is no better than animal sacrifice, 3. verse 25 is speaking of Church meetings in the form of coming together for worship, fellowship in Christ and learning, and 4. If you skip Church even once, you have forsaken (as the KJV puts it), you swerved and shrunk (as the NIV puts it). [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Bottom line is, if you are going to go to 1 John 3:9, 1 John 2:6 and Hebrews 10:26, then be prepared to deal with what the rest of the verses say. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]So here’s a thought…. Next time this spirit talks to you, ask him about Hebrews 10:1-25. Ask him about 1 John chapter 1 and 2. And ask the Holy Spirit to guide you in ALL Truth, not just the truth about Hebrews 10:26. And while you and this spirit are talking[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium](whom you believe to be Jesus personally talking to you), Ask him about 1 John 4:1. If he or you get defensive about it, then one of you is of the Devil. If both of you agree that it doesn’t apply to you, then you are both of the Devil. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]And also, I am a staunch KJV guy, but I have kept true to my word in that I’ll go to other versions to prove a point. I have only quoted the Bible YOU chose. Furthermore, if you say, “well that’s just your opinion of what it means”, no. Let’s line it up verse by verse and go by what it says. [/SIZE]
Bold words, Williemac. Amen! I agree and stand with you in what you said. What'd you do? Read the Bible or something like that?williemac said:
[SIZE=medium]Even the NIV says that. I don’t advocate sin, but if we do sin, we do have an advocate in Jesus Christ. That’s from 1 John 2:1. So appearently, there is hope (thank the Lord) for anyone who sins…. Yes, even if they still sin. [/SIZE]FHII said:
[SIZE=medium]Next…. Ahh, ole [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]If you want to debate that, fine. We will start at verse 1 of that chapter and it will be very clear that 1. grace covers all sins of the flesh, 2. if grace doesn’t cover past, present and future sins, it is no better than animal sacrifice, 3. verse 25 is speaking of Church meetings in the form of coming together for worship, fellowship in Christ and learning, and 4. If you skip Church even once, you have forsaken (as the KJV puts it), you swerved and shrunk (as the NIV puts it). [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Bottom line is, if you are going to go to 1 John 3:9, 1 John 2:6 and Hebrews 10:26, then be prepared to deal with what the rest of the verses say. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]So here’s a thought…. Next time this spirit talks to you, ask him about Hebrews 10:1-25. Ask him about 1 John chapter 1 and 2. And ask the Holy Spirit to guide you in ALL Truth, not just the truth about Hebrews 10:26. And while you and this spirit are talking[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium](whom you believe to be Jesus personally talking to you), Ask him about 1 John 4:1. If he or you get defensive about it, then one of you is of the Devil. If both of you agree that it doesn’t apply to you, then you are both of the Devil. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]And also, I am a staunch KJV guy, but I have kept true to my word in that I’ll go to other versions to prove a point. I have only quoted the Bible YOU chose. Furthermore, if you say, “well that’s just your opinion of what it means”, no. Let’s line it up verse by verse and go by what it says. [/SIZE]
Bold words, Williemac. Amen! I agree and stand with you in what you said. What'd you do? Read the Bible or something like that?
[SIZE=16pt]You had better understand that if one deliberately commits any sin he or she are of the devil.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]That is scripture, and no scripture will contradict what John said.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Your brave words mean nothing, your understanding of other verses can’t contradict what John said.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]John said to be in Jesus one had to walk/act as Jesus walked and acted. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]You think that you can use scripture to say John was wrong?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Don’t give me this like you know scripture, to me you don’t understand any of it. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](Matthew 5:48) “Even the pagans do as much, do they not? You must therefore be perfect just as your heavenly Father is perfect.” [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did” Jesus obeyed his Father in heaven. We are to obey as Jesus did.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work” [/SIZE]
FHII
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Johnlove said:
Ok. Have you deliberately committed sin? I don't mean in your past years, I mean today.
No, Scripture will not contradict what John said, but you don't grasp the full meaning of what he said, nor have you acknowledge ALL that he said. He did say we cannot sin and gain the kingdom, but he also said we all sin and we all have an advocate who takes care of our shortcomings. You continuously deny these facts about the Bible, which you believe we don't need to follow because Jesus personally is teaching you.
I don't have "brave words", I have what the Bible says whether it be the NIV or KJV. You quote the NIV but reject it at the same time. I stand on the written Word and make no apoligies for doing so. You stand on what Jesus told you personally in a dream, or however your received it. I say dream because you mentioned it in another post.
My understanding doesn't contradict the words of John. All of them. That is the Book of John, John I, John II and John III. Furthermore, it doesn't contradict the rest of the Bible. If it does, please show me and I'll humbly correct it. It has happened before, but not too often. I'm not saying John is wrong, I'm saying that what he said is correct. But I look at all of what he said, not just one or two verses which I conviently isolate, like you are doing.
Now, what about your understanding? What proof do you have that it is real? I am ready to go into the rest of the WORD of God, now where do you want to go to prove your understanding is correct?
I try the spirits by the written Word. What do you try them by? "to you, I don't understand any of it."? Fine... Doesn't matter to me what you think. I'm more concerned with if it's right and if God says it's right. I can't go by that little Jesus voice in your head or mine.... I go by "IT IS WRITTEN".
Fail-proof!
Wormwood
Chaps
Who taught you? Because the Church for 2000+ years has never believed this to mean one can never sin. So, I have 2000 years of Christian teaching and believers throughout history that say you are wrong. But I am sure you have Jesus teaching you directly so that goes against what Christians have believed for 2000+ years right? Are you telling me that you are the only one with the Holy Spirit and that all the prominent teachers throughout Church history are wrong? I just want to be clear here.Johnlove said:
Actually, Hebrews 10 is referring to a specific sin...the sin of rejecting Jesus. If you look at the context you will see that is clearly the case.
Nothing in the context here suggests that someone who says a single harsh word in frustration or tells a single lie is forever condemned. The verses both BEFORE and AFTER the verse you are quoting clearly are talking about those who waver from the truth and someone who sets aside the covenant by which they were bought and tramples the cross in rejection of Christ after accepting it.
Johnlove, you can tell me all day long you play tic tac toe with Jesus and the heavenly host of angels and chat about doctrine and hermeneutics all day long. Your claims mean nothing. We have the inspired Word of God that both of us agree are the very words of God. You continually twist God's words to make them say very different things than what they are teaching. So, no, I don't believe Jesus told you anything because it does not match with what the Bible says or what saints have believed for 2000 years. Now, I know you think your personal word is worth far more than 2000 years worth of believers, or what the context of the Bible clearly portrays...but if you want to convince me, you are going to have to show me from the Word, and not from "Jesus told me so" types of ridiculous comments.
I am consulting the Greek text on my understanding of how these words are used. I will not agree to watch you twist the Scriptures and say nothing. If you are going to post your opinions about the Bible publicly, you need to be ready to be challenged when your views are a clear distortion of what the Bible says.
Perhaps we can peruse just this little bit (above) for now ...williemac said:
Okay, I have lots of verses that supercede John 5:24.
Let's go down the road of doing the will of the Father,
and obeying His commandments.
I'll just present one, and see how you do with it:
Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord’,
shall enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."
No doubt you will say that the BAC has believed, and thus has
done the will of the Father and managed to get born-again,
and will live happily ever after.
Presto magnifico! ... Brilliant.
Courtesy of heretoeternity ...
Sin is transgression of God's law according to Apostle John in 1st John
...and he goes on to say "those who say they know Him and keep not
His commandments are liars and the truth is not in them"
...so it is wise to bear these in mind when referring to "sin" and what is is.
'Tis quite clear to me that most BACs these days
do not wish to consider the whole counsel of God.
IMO, God's free gift of grace provides eternal life to the believer,
IF he/she maintains his/her faith to the very end, plus other
requirements which have been dutifully stipulated in the NT.
Yes, all of God's promises throughout Scripture have always been conditional.
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