Do you believe Jesus has given you the Holy Spirit?

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Johnlove

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truthquest said:
Johnlove, there is only one mentioned in the scriptures who was without sin and why do you think that is so?. Heb. 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.15 For we have not a high priest who cannot be touched with the feeling of our weaknesses; but was in all points tempted like we are, yet without sin.16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.....And yet, you say that you are without sin and out of all those mentioned in the scriptures, only Jesus was without sin. ....Only Jesus.

[SIZE=16pt]Is that not a straw man argument? Did I ever say that I have never sinned?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]I showed scripture that tells us that after one obeys the Holy Spirit, he or she will never sin again.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]You show me scripture that tells us a Christian will continue to sin, using the written Word of God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]People seem to want to feel righteousness even though they continue to not live God’s Word.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]That is a lie. If one does not live God’s Word, and that includes and means one is a sinner, he or she are of the devil, and the devil is not righteous. [/SIZE]
 

truthquest

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Johnlove said:
Johnlove, there is only one mentioned in the scriptures who was without sin and why do you think that is so?. Heb. 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.15 For we have not a high priest who cannot be touched with the feeling of our weaknesses; but was in all points tempted like we are, yet without sin.16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.....And yet, you say that you are without sin and out of all those mentioned in the scriptures, only Jesus was without sin. ....Only Jesus.

[SIZE=16pt]Is that not a straw man argument? Did I ever say that I have never sinned?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]I showed scripture that tells us that after one obeys the Holy Spirit, he or she will never sin again.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]You show me scripture that tells us a Christian will continue to sin, using the written Word of God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]People seem to want to feel righteousness even though they continue to not live God’s Word.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]That is a lie. If one does not live God’s Word, and that includes and means one is a sinner, he or she are of the devil, and the devil is not righteous. [/SIZE]
I don't know what a straw man argument is. Did I misunderstand you? I thought you have repeatedly said that you do not sin....and for how long? Forty years, was it?
 

Johnlove

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truthquest said:
I don't know what a straw man argument is. Did I misunderstand you? I thought you have repeatedly said that you do not sin....and for how long? Forty years, was it?
[SIZE=16pt]No you did not misunderstand me, I have not sinned for the last forty years, but I am eighty years old. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]For the first forty years I tried very hard to live a righteous life. Went to Church every day, and did all I could do to not sin.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]But no matter how hard I tried the devil would always win, and I would sin.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Then I was given the Holy Spirit, and Jesus started teaching me. God gave me the grace to defeat Satan/sin.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=16pt]That was the difference before receiving the Holy Spirit it was only me trying to be good. No one can defeat Satan/sin, without God doing the work for him or her.[/SIZE]
 

Wormwood

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Johnlove,

If you haven't sinned for 40 years, good for you. Yes we are called to be perfect. However, the Bible is very clear that Christian CAN sin and there is forgiveness in Christ. In fact, sin has no power over the Christian anymore that they must obey it. By the power of the Spirit, they can turn from sin and live a righteous life. However, this does not mean one HAS to live free from sin to prove they have the Holy Spirit. Nor does this mean that if one has the Holy Spirit that they are incapable of sinning. There are a host of Scriptures that prove this point, but I have a feeling you wouldn't listen if I quoted them all as you haven't responded to the previous verses I cited. So I wont bother quoting them unless you would like to look them up yourself.

So continue on living sinlessly. That is great. Keep up the good work. We should all strive to do so and by the power of the Holy Spirit can overcome any sin. However, if a Christian does sin, it is not evidence that they "belong to the Devil." That is a very unfair judgment to make....especially since it is not substantiated by Scripture. I mean, why would Jesus tell his followers to "be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect" if they could not help but to be perfect once they receive the Holy Spirit? Its like telling an egg to "be white." If a Christian must "be perfect" because they cannot do otherwise if the Holy Spirit dwells in them...it seems all the encouragements and challenges to flee sin and live holy lives is a waste of time. Don't you think?
 
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Johnlove

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Wormwood said:
Johnlove,

If you haven't sinned for 40 years, good for you. Yes we are called to be perfect. However, the Bible is very clear that Christian CAN sin and there is forgiveness in Christ. In fact, sin has no power over the Christian anymore that they must obey it. By the power of the Spirit, they can turn from sin and live a righteous life. However, this does not mean one HAS to live free from sin to prove they have the Holy Spirit. Nor does this mean that if one has the Holy Spirit that they are incapable of sinning. There are a host of Scriptures that prove this point, but I have a feeling you wouldn't listen if I quoted them all as you haven't responded to the previous verses I cited. So I wont bother quoting them unless you would like to look them up yourself.

So continue on living sinlessly. That is great. Keep up the good work. We should all strive to do so and by the power of the Holy Spirit can overcome any sin. However, if a Christian does sin, it is not evidence that they "belong to the Devil." That is a very unfair judgment to make....especially since it is not substantiated by Scripture. I mean, why would Jesus tell his followers to "be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect" if they could not help but to be perfect once they receive the Holy Spirit? Its like telling an egg to "be white." If a Christian must "be perfect" because they cannot do otherwise if the Holy Spirit dwells in them...it seems all the encouragements and challenges to flee sin and live holy lives is a waste of time. Don't you think?
[SIZE=16pt]Yes there is forgiveness, but Jesus made it possible to live without sinning. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]The Holy Spirit teaches, and gives one the grace to live God’s Word.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]When a person has received the knowledge of the truth from God, and is living God’s Commandments, he or she become temples of God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]When God makes a home in a person, then that home is protected from Satan/sin. The devil can’t enter God’s home, unless the person who has become God’s home, deliberately commits a sin.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Such a sin is an insult to the Holy Spirit, and is unforgivable.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Acts 5:1-11) the Fraud of Ananias and Sapphira-----------“[/SIZE]


[SIZE=16pt]I do not sin, but that does not give me any credit. There is no way to not sin unless God makes that possible.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]It is God’s work in and through one that protects him or her from Satan/sin.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]All I am doing is telling people that God made it possible for us to defeat Satan/sin.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]But it is God that makes that possible, and not us.[/SIZE]
 

justaname

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You are wrong Johnlove...

Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 1 John 4:15

We are sealed with the Holy Spirit upon belief until the day of redemption...I have presented the Scripture to support this...you have no Scripture to say the Holy Spirit ever leaves a believer.

Ananias' case of death does not support your theory.

I cometely agree God empowers us to defeat sin, and this is through faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ.

I completely admit though I do not believe you have not sinned in forty years. I have witnessed pride in your posts here. I have witnessed false teaching also. This is just what happened here on a blog or forum, so I am certain this is just the tip of the mountain of sin you deny and suppress in order to maintain your false teachings.

8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1 John 1:8-10

John wrote this to believers, those who have accepted Christ, and have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Christians. Our Advocate is for His children, He is not the advocate of those who do not believe, nor does He stop being our Advocate once we come to belief. He continues being our Advocate perpetually. This is also confirmed in Scripture.

Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. Hebrews 7:25

What I have witnessed through your posts is personal boasting about personal experience and an attempt to devalue those who struggle with sin in a transparent way with God and others.

When Jesus gives the model prayer He asks the Father to forgive our trespasses we have committed against Him.
Matthew 6:12

We are told to confess our sins. James 5:16

Paul gives an explanation of his personal struggle with sin in Scripture. Romans 7

And we are taught...There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ! Romans 8:1

This because our minds are set on things of the Spirit. Romans 8:5

And best of all...

If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. Romans 8:11
 
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Born_Again

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I think for someone to claim they are perfect is ignorant. Seriously, from what I'm reading here from some particular posts, essentially, we are all going to hell. Who are they to judge any of us on here? God is our judge. "I'm perfect!!! You're all going to hell!" I simply think those posts are self righteous and self serving. I held back as long as I could but repeatedly reading about how perfect someone thinks they are is ridiculous.

This got out of hand. That's just my personal feeling.......... :mellow: Go ahead, call me wrong. That's okay.
 
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Enquirer

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Johnlove said:
If one is forgiven of all unrighteousness are they not then sinless? Could they then be liars if they say they are sinless?
If one is forgiven of all unrighteousness they are not sinless, it simply means that your account before God has been cleared.
They have a clean slate before God.
And now if you do sin and ask forgiveness He wipes away the mark and you remain in right standing.

If we were under the OT, the High Priest would have to sacrifice an animal as a substitute in our place year after year,
because we sin year after year.
In the NT, Christ made one sacrifice for all time.

then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. And by that will we have
been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, Heb 10:9 12

That is the power of the blood of Christ.
It forgives sins that were and are committed, it does not remove your capacity to sin by changing your flesh.
Christ's blood deals with the fruit and not the root.

We have to renew our minds, as Paul said, "I crucify my flesh daily", it is a continuous struggle.
Go read Galatians 5: 16 - 17,

But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the
desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.

Paul is speaking of the constant struggle that Christians have on a daily basis which we experience between the flesh and the spirit.
And it is here where we fail.

So no, you CANNOT say that you are sinless even if you have been made right with God.
But you can remain in right standing if you confess your sins.
 

Johnlove

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justaname said:
You are wrong Johnlove...

Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 1 John 4:15
[SIZE=16pt]Let us look all of what John said in (1 John 4: 11-21).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](1 John 4: 11-21) “My dear friends, if God loved us so much, we too should love one another. No one has ever seen God, but as long as we love one another God remains in us and his love comes to its perfection in us. This is the proof that we remain in him and he in us, that he has given us a share in his Spirit. We ourselves have seen and testify that the Father sent his Son as Saviour of the world. Anyone who acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God remains in him and he in God. We have recognised for ourselves, and put our faith in, the love God has for us. God is love, and whoever remains in love remains in God and God in him.[/SIZE] Love comes to its perfection in us when we can face the Day of Judgement fearlessly, because even in this world we have become as he is. In love there is no room for fear, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear implies punishment and no one who is afraid has come to perfection in love. Let us love, then, because he first loved us.”

[SIZE=16pt]John said: “Anyone who acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God remains in him and he in God” But then John goes on to qualify that statement. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]John says: “Whoever remains in love remains in God and God in him. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Remains in love! Jesus told us how we prove we love him. Loving God is remaining in Love.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did” [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]([/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]John 14: 23) “Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Notice Jesus said anyone who loves him will keep his word. That is proof that one is in God. Also Jesus tells us he is not in those who do not keep his commandments. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](John 14:21) “Anybody who receives my commandments and keeps them will be one who loves me; and anybody who loves me will be loved by My Father, and I shall love him and show myself to him.” [/SIZE]
We are sealed with the Holy Spirit upon belief until the day of redemption...I have presented the Scripture to support this...you have no Scripture to say the Holy Spirit ever leaves a believer.
[SIZE=16pt]I proved you wrong with the above scripture, but do you believe one can be of the devil and of God at the same time? Do you really believe God will share his temple with the devil?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work” [/SIZE]
Ananias' case of death does not support your theory.

I cometely agree God empowers us to defeat sin, and this is through faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ.

I completely admit though I do not believe you have not sinned in forty years. I have witnessed pride in your posts here. I have witnessed false teaching also. This is just what happened here on a blog or forum, so I am certain this is just the tip of the mountain of sin you deny and suppress in order to maintain your false teachings.
[SIZE=16pt]You have a right to your opinion, and just remind you that Jesus is my judge. [/SIZE]
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[SIZE=14pt]Read the scripture below, and learn something.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt](1 John 1: 8-10) “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]and his word has no place in our lives.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]You need to see John was saying if one says he or she says they have never sinned they are liars. [/SIZE]

If one is forgiven of all unrighteousness are they not then sinless? Could they then be liars if they say they are sinless?

John later says:

[SIZE=14pt](1 John 3:3-9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]seen Him or known Him[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]. [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]My children do not let anyone lead you astray’ to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy’ to lead a sinful life is to belong the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.” [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt](1 John 3:8) “[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]John told us those who did not know God sinned and asked forgiveness and were forgiven, but once a person comes to know God he or she will not sin.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Scripture goes on to say that if a person who does know God uses their free will to sin there is no [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]repentance[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] for that person. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt](Hebrews 10:26-31) “[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]. [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt](Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. [/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”[/SIZE]
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[SIZE=16pt](1 John 2:1-2) “I am writing this, [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]my children[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt], to stop you sinning; but if anyone should sin, we have our advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, who is just; he is the sacrifice that takes our sins away, and not only ours, but the whole world’s.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Here John is talking to children/infants in Christ and telling them they have a just judge who will give each one a just judgment. Those who were righteous would receive a good reward. Those who were evil will get his or her just punishment.[/SIZE]
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1 John 1:8-10

John wrote this to believers, those who have accepted Christ, and have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Christians. Our Advocate is for His children, He is not the advocate of those who do not believe, nor does He stop being our Advocate once we come to belief. He continues being our Advocate perpetually. This is also confirmed in Scripture.

Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. Hebrews 7:25

What I have witnessed through your posts is personal boasting about personal experience and an attempt to devalue those who struggle with sin in a transparent way with God and others.

When Jesus gives the model prayer He asks the Father to forgive our trespasses we have committed against Him.
Matthew 6:12
[SIZE=16pt]Yes Jesus gave the disciples the Lord’s Prayer before they received the Holy Spirit, and he knew they would continue to sin until that. Peter proved that to be true.[/SIZE]
We are told to confess our sins. James 5:16
[SIZE=16pt]Do you know if James was referring to Spiritual Christians or not? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]It may have been understood by those who James was writing to that Spiritual Christians did not need to be forgiven of any sins.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Your assumption seems to say that was not the case, and then your assumption contradicts what Apostle John said and what Hebrews says.[/SIZE]
Paul gives an explanation of his personal struggle with sin in Scripture. Romans 7

And we are taught...There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ! Romans 8:1
[SIZE=16pt]Yes Paul in Romans seven tells us just how impossible it is for one to not sin. Then in Romans eight Paul tells us just how God made it possible to never sin again.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](Romans 8: 4) “He did this in order that the law’s just demands might be satisfied in us, who behave not as our unspiritual nature but as the Spirit dictates.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](Romans 8: 4-5) “This was so that the Law's requirements might be fully satisfied in us as we direct our lives not by our natural inclinations but by the Spirit.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Again what it means to be in Christ has been explained earlier in this post. [/SIZE]
This because our minds are set on things of the Spirit. Romans 8:5

And best of all...

If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. Romans 8:11
[SIZE=16pt]Yes and God does not dwell in a sinner.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]([/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]John 14: 23) “Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Sinning is not keeping God’s Word.[/SIZE]
 

Axehead

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Why would Paul find it necessary to write these words to the Church?


His admonition to the Church is to "put on the new man". In Eph_4:22, he instructs them to "put off the old man".
Eph_4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Eph_4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

If it were not possible for Christians to sin, why does Paul feel it necessary to instruct them to put away lying, to be angry but not to the point of sinning and not to give any place to the devil? What gives place to the Devil except sin? What is sin? Anything that is not of Christ.

Eph_4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
Eph_4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Eph_4:27 Neither give place to the devil.

Paul admonishes the Church to not steal anymore and to stop the corrupt communication that used to come out of their mouths, speaking only edifying things to others. Sin grieve's the Holy Spirit and Paul instructs to cease grieving the Holy Spirit. Put away all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamour and evil speaking.

Eph_4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
Eph_4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
Eph_4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Eph_4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
Eph_4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Paul would not be instructing the Church to stop sinning if it weren't possible for Christians to sin. Notice, Paul is not going on and on about those who are doing these things as not belonging to Christ, but rather he is admonishing them to put off and put away the things from their former conversation ( way of life).

Peter finds it necessary to remind the Church that they should not fashion themselves according to their former lusts which my implication, it is possible to do.
1Pet_1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

Axehead
 
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justaname

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Johnlove,

I will slow this way down for now concentrating on Scripture.

You have said that you proved me wrong with the above verse...yet John 14:21 speaks of God's love not the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Your haughty spirit precedes your false teachings...
This is Scripture....

13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 1:13-14

Scripture teaches we are sealed upon belief guaranteeing our inheritance until we acquire possession.

You teach if we are good enough for long enough we will then receive the Holy Spirit...

Then once we receive the Holy Spirit we will never sin again.

This is not what Scripture teaches. Scripture never proves Scripture wrong, nor does the Holy Spirit teach or correct in that manner. The Holy Spirit gently corrects in love.

Please speak to the Scripture and tell me where it is wrong. I am not asking for your interpretation of a different Scripture that you believe disproves this Scripture I presented. Speak to this particular Scripture.
 

Johnlove

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justaname said:
Johnlove,

I will slow this way down for now concentrating on Scripture.

You have said that you proved me wrong with the above verse...yet John 14:21 speaks of God's love not the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Your haughty spirit precedes your false teachings...
This is Scripture....

13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 1:13-14
[SIZE=16pt]You dare tell me I have a false spirit based on your understanding of the written Word of God?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Think about this your understanding of scripture was never taught in the Church Jesus Christ established.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]You believe that it took God almost sixteen hundred years to bring the true Gospel to his people.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Paul told us a sinner would never enter the kingdom of God.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](1 Corinthians 6:9-19) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.”[/SIZE]
Scripture teaches we are sealed upon belief guaranteeing our inheritance until we acquire possession.

You teach if we are good enough for long enough we will then receive the Holy Spirit...

Then once we receive the Holy Spirit we will never sin again.

This is not what Scripture teaches. Scripture never proves Scripture wrong, nor does the Holy Spirit teach or correct in that manner. The Holy Spirit gently corrects in love.

Please speak to the Scripture and tell me where it is wrong. I am not asking for your interpretation of a different Scripture that you believe disproves this Scripture I presented. Speak to this particular Scripture.
[SIZE=16pt]Your understanding of the bible makes what Jesus did here all seem like a waste of time.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]If what you believe were true, then Jesus would have had no need to teach the apostles how to live his Word. And then give us his Holy Spirit to make sure we understood his teaching.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Go tell someone who has not had Jesus teach him or her, those people will like what you believe, but I know from God that you are wrong.[/SIZE]
 

williemac

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Johnlove said:
[SIZE=16pt]Read who Jesus said would enter the kingdom of Heaven.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](Matthew 7:21-23) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Notice the people who Jesus was talking to were those who had been given the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Those people were not living God’s will, and he told them they would not enter into heaven.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Now read who Paul said would not enter Heaven.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](1 Corinthians 6:9-19) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Now ask yourself, why would God need to become man if he wanted sinners to live with him forever? If God wanted to live with sinners, he did not need to come hear to defeat Satan/sin.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work” [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Notice John tells us that Jesus came to destroy sin. [/SIZE]
Greetings, friend. Thank you for your reply. I have been away, but would like to reply to your comments made to me. I will limit it to these above.
Ist point : Jesus was not speaking to those who had the gifts of the Spirit but to those who only claimed to have them. His declaration was " I never knew you" . His promise was that He and the Father would come and make their home with us. This is fulfilled by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Therefore no one in that category is someone whom He 'never knew'. Never means never. It does not mean 'used to know you'. These are they who never had a relationship with Jesus. In one place, we see Him knocking at the door of the lukewarm church asking to come into them. They were neither hot, because of no indwelling, and neither cold, because they were followers of Jesus....but without His power or presence, being wretched, blind, poor, miserable, and naked. This is the point of Jesus' statement. John17:3 states that eternal life is knowing the Father and the Son. Those in your quote from Jesus could never have been given eternal life in the first place. It is given by faith. These in the passage were focused on their own works and accomplishments, not in His work and accomplishment. They were of works, not faith. The will of the Father is to believe on His Son. We do His will that way. The moral law was never part of that passage. It has to be understood in light of the gospel, not the law.

In relation to your next point, God most certainly does not want sinners in His presence. But His solution has nothing to do with our performance. It has to do with a new identity in Christ. His solution is to make us a new creation that does not nor cannot sin. This is a process that has not yet been completed, but has begun. He does not identify the born again believer according to any sin, but according to the righteousness and obedience of ONE MAN, (refer to Rom.5). Those who are judged by God are recognized according to their sin. Our promise from Jesus is that we will not come under such judgment (John 5:24). We cannot be identifed as sinners. This is because He is the One who is solving the sin issue. Do you really think that He is reduced to depending on us to solve it? That has been proven in the first covenant to be no solution at all. Man cannot change his own nature.

As for your last comment in this quote....agreed. Jesus came to destroy sin. But this is not what you are giving us. You are interpreting things in a way that puts the responsibility on the believer to be the one who destroys his own sin. What this amounts to is that you are telling us that we are given the task that man has failed in doing and that God said He would do.

I will remind you that the very first transgression was that of Lucifer when he determined to leave his God given role and take on his own role and agenda, which is described as sitting on the throne as God Himself. Well, my friend, here is one way we can committ the same transgression: we can attempt to do His job. We can attempt to take on His role. And this my friend is what you are proposing. You are telling us that it is our role to remove sin from our own lives. Furthermore, this is what you insinuate will justify us for eternal life. How in the world then can you also tell us that justification is by faith? Your way is that justification is by works. The tragedy is that you seem to be blind to this.
 

Johnlove

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williemac said:
Greetings, friend. Thank you for your reply. I have been away, but would like to reply to your comments made to me. I will limit it to these above. Ist point :
Jesus was not speaking to those who had the gifts of the Spirit but to those who only claimed to have them. His declaration was " I never knew you" . His promise was that He and the Father would come and make their home with us. This is fulfilled by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Therefore no one in that category is someone whom He 'never knew'. Never means never. It does not mean 'used to know you'. These are they who never had a relationship with Jesus. In one place, we see Him knocking at the door of the lukewarm church asking to come into them. They were neither hot, because of no indwelling, and neither cold, because they were followers of Jesus....but without His power or presence, being wretched, blind, poor, miserable, and naked. This is the point of Jesus' statement. John17:3 states that eternal life is knowing the Father and the Son. Those in your quote from Jesus could never have been given eternal life in the first place. It is given by faith. These in the passage were focused on their own works and accomplishments, not in His work and accomplishment. They were of works, not faith. The will of the Father is to believe on His Son. We do His will that way. The moral law was never part of that passage. It has to be understood in light of the gospel, not the law.

[SIZE=16pt]Other than your opinion, can one get confirmation in scripture of what you believe Jesus was telling us in that scripture?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Jesus told me that the scripture does not need any explanation. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]What Jesus said was the truth. Notice that scripture starts out.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](Matthew 7:21-23) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]A sinner is not doing the will of God.[/SIZE]
I

n relation to your next point, God most certainly does not want sinners in His presence. But His solution has nothing to do with our performance. It has to do with a new identity in Christ. His solution is to make us a new creation that does not nor cannot sin. This is a process that has not yet been completed, but has begun. He does not identify the born again believer according to any sin, but according to the righteousness and obedience of ONE MAN, (refer to Rom.5). Those who are judged by God are recognized according to their sin. Our promise from Jesus is that we will not come under such judgment (John 5:24). We cannot be identifed as sinners. This is because He is the One who is solving the sin issue. Do you really think that He is reduced to depending on us to solve it? That has been proven in the first covenant to be no solution at all. Man cannot change his own nature.

[SIZE=16pt]Your understanding of the bible makes what Jesus did here all seem like a waste of time.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]If what you believe were true, then Jesus would have had no need to teach the apostles how to live his Word. And then give us his Holy Spirit to make sure we understood his teaching.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Go tell someone who has not had Jesus teach him or her, those people will like what you believe, but I know from God that you are wrong.[/SIZE]
As for your last comment in this quote....agreed. Jesus came to destroy sin. But this is not what you are giving us. You are interpreting things in a way that puts the responsibility on the believer to be the one who destroys his own sin. What this amounts to is that you are telling us that we are given the task that man has failed in doing and that God said He would do.

[SIZE=16pt]You have not read many of my post if you believe what you just posted. Or you are making a straw man argument.[/SIZE]


williemac said:
I will remind you that the very first transgression was that of Lucifer when he determined to leave his God given role and take on his own role and agenda, which is described as sitting on the throne as God Himself. Well, my friend, here is one way we can committ the same transgression: we can attempt to do His job. We can attempt to take on His role. And this my friend is what you are proposing. You are telling us that it is our role to remove sin from our own lives. Furthermore, this is what you insinuate will justify us for eternal life. How in the world then can you also tell us that justification is by faith? Your way is that justification is by works. The tragedy is that you seem to be blind to this.
[SIZE=16pt]Again you have no understanding of my position. A Christian is one who has proved to God that he or she loves him, and who is a home of God’s. God makes sure that Satan/sin can’t enter that home.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]It is only through the grace of God that one can obey God’s commandments. And that is the only way one knows he or she is in God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did” [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]([/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]John 14: 23) “Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](John 14:21) “Anybody who receives my commandments and keeps them will be one who loves me; and anybody who loves me will be loved by My Father, and I shall love him and show myself to him.” [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]By the way I have seen Jesus. [/SIZE]
 

justaname

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Johnlove,

You have yet to speak anything to the Scripture I presented. Neither have I spoken to what I believe, except that you have proven yourself to have a haughty spirit. This is evident throughout all the threads you have started.

Let's redirect this again to the scripture at hand...

13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 1:13-14

Please self exulted one, illuminate this scripture for us all to comprehend.
 

Johnlove

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justaname said:
Johnlove,

You have yet to speak anything to the Scripture I presented. Neither have I spoken to what I believe, except that you have proven yourself to have a haughty spirit. This is evident throughout all the threads you have started.

Let's redirect this again to the scripture at hand...

13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 1:13-14
[SIZE=16pt]Do you read where it says in him?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Do you read scripture that tells us who is in Jesus? Well read the following scripture. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did” [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Jesus obey the Fathers Commandments, and that means Jesus did not sin.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]John tells us that in Jesus there is no sin.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Did you read where Paul says there is no inheritance for people who do wrong?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](1 Corinthians 6:9-19) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.”[/SIZE]
Please self exulted one, illuminate this scripture for us all to comprehend.
 

justaname

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I do read where it says "In Him"...lets look to what is being spoken about in the context of this actual letter as opposed to some cut and pasting of the Scriptures.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

​The "In Him" refers back to the context of God's sovereign choice, we are chosen in Him. Predestination and God's sovereignty is being expressed.
The "In Him" speaks to the redemption we have though Christ's blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, again through God's purpose.
The Father's kind intention is purposed "In Him".
The "In Him" refers to our inheritance we have obtained. (past tense)
The "In Him" refers to our dependence on God.

​Again our discussion is about when the Holy Spirit indwells, your attempt to change the subject will not be followed...this passage explains that after belief we are sealed, "having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory."

It says you were sealed "In Him" through belief.

You teach something different.
 

Johnlove

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justaname said:
I do read where it says "In Him"...lets look to what is being spoken about in the context of this actual letter as opposed to some cut and pasting of the Scriptures.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

​The "In Him" refers back to the context of God's sovereign choice, we are chosen in Him. Predestination and God's sovereignty is being expressed.
The "In Him" speaks to the redemption we have though Christ's blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, again through God's purpose.
The Father's kind intention is purposed "In Him".
The "In Him" refers to our inheritance we have obtained. (past tense)
The "In Him" refers to our dependence on God.

​Again our discussion is about when the Holy Spirit indwells, your attempt to change the subject will not be followed...this passage explains that after belief we are sealed, "having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory."

It says you were sealed "In Him" through belief.

You teach something different.
[SIZE=16pt]Is all that true? Who said all of that and to whom was it said?[/SIZE]
 

justaname

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Johnlove said:
[SIZE=16pt]Is all that true? Who said all of that and to whom was it said?[/SIZE]
Yes it is.

This is written by Paul through the Holy Spirit to believers in Ephesus.