Daniel 9:24-27

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Trekson

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Hi Retro, While I appreciate your time and attention to our conversation, I think (25 pages!!!) is a little much! No wonder it took six days to reply! I will do what I can but I will break it up into two parts. The first one will be a little scattered tackling the easiest and shortest parts first. Please reply in kind. The second part will take longer and I don't know how soon I can accomplish it. I'm just saying that it will probably take more time for me to reply then it did for you to write it but I'll do my best.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Trekson.

Trekson said:
Hi Retro, While I appreciate your time and attention to our conversation, I think (25 pages!!!) is a little much! No wonder it took six days to reply! I will do what I can but I will break it up into two parts. The first one will be a little scattered tackling the easiest and shortest parts first. Please reply in kind. The second part will take longer and I don't know how soon I can accomplish it. I'm just saying that it will probably take more time for me to reply then it did for you to write it but I'll do my best.
Yeah, sorry about that. I didn’t know any other way than to just attack the whole thing; there’s such a disparity. I lost my post a couple of times, trying to do it all in the “post reply” window. There were a couple of days too busy to get back to it. I knew that it would be a bit much and even apologized ahead of time in the first attempt for the length. Didn’t remember to include the apology in the final attempt, which I did in Word first. Take your time; I know it may not be quick in coming.
 

Trekson

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Hi Retro, Regarding Heb. 11:1 – “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen” Your words: “Faith is NOT hoping for things or not seeing things; it’s SUBSTANCE and EVIDENCE! What “substance?” Simply the actual parchment, vellum, papyri, paper or electronic media and the ink with which the Bible was written! What “evidence?” All the records that follow in the 11th chapter and more.”

I’m really beginning to question whether you have any “heart” knowledge of God or nor. I think you need to get out of your head knowledge because as you write it shows that you don’t even have the basic knowledge of scripture that most Sunday School kids learn by the time they’re six or seven. The highlighted part is EXACTLY what faith is. FAITH is the “substance and evidence” here, not the written word. Many claim the bible is a bunch of lies, the written words of the bible don’t prove or disprove that. It is only by the unseen “spiritual” aspects of Christianity do we “hold these truths to be self-evident”. I can’t “see” God, yet I have faith that He exists. I don’t “see or touch love” yet I know it exists. If something could be proven by the written word, there would be no need of faith. The written word would suffice.

Your words: “Look, we don’t BLINDLY follow our God.”

In the beginning of our walk with Him, that is EXACTLY what we do! Only as we grow in Him and see His word working in our lives do we change in little ways from faith to knowledge, but without blind faith to start we would never learn the knowledge of His reality.

Your words: “It’s EASY to have faith.”

Not really, if it was as easy as you say, everyone would be doing it. There is more than one level of faith. I can have faith that when I switch on my lights, they will come on, but it doesn’t always work. I can have faith that when I go out to start my car in the morning, it will start, but again that doesn’t always happen. However, trusting in someone you can’t see or hear (in normal ways) or even prove to another person that He exists takes faith to a whole ‘nother “leaping off a cliff” level!

Your words: “we can still learn to TRUST GOD!”

What you said was true, however, faith and trust are two different things. Faith leads to trust only when the faith has been proven justified.
Your words: So, when we read something like Romans 9 through 11, one should understand that the “all Israel” in 11:26 is Paul talking about all the children of Israel, not the Goyim or the Gentiles – all the other nations of the earth. Why? Because of the CONTRAST! These “all Israel” are not contrasted to the Gentiles who do not believe but to the Gentiles who DID believe:”

Yes and no. It’s not all Israel in general, the contrast is between believing Israel and believing Gentile. An unbelieving Israelite has zero standing with God just as an unbelieving Gentile doesn’t! Come judgment day, I dare say an unbelieving Philistine has a better chance than an unbelieving Jew because “where there is no law, there is no sin”. What is unbelief? It’s simply a lack of faith. Faith in God is what we all are justified by. Without it there is no justification available to anyone be they Jew or Gentile.

Your words: “Therefore, the “all Israel” DOES NOT INCLUDE the believing Gentiles!”

That is true but neither does it include unbelieving Jews. If a Jew doesn’t have a relationship with God they are no more Israel than an ancient South African Nubian.

Rom. 4:13-14 – “For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect.”

I consider the following the most important discussion we have had to date and to me, I’m sorry if this offends you, it shows your total lack of understanding of the basics of Christianity.

Your words: “IF your definition of “salvation” is “God’s justification of an individual” or the “new birth,” then your INTERPRETATION of the passage is going to be one way, BUT if you define “salvation” as a “national rescue,” your INTERPRETATION of that SAME PASSAGE is going to give you an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT VIEW! It’s not “God’s Word” that disagrees with my understanding; it’s YOUR INTERPRETATION of God’s Word that disagrees with my understanding! Your INTERPRETATION of God’s Word SLANTS your view of ALL Scripture! And again, your interpretation is based upon your DEFINITIONS of these key, fundamental words! You may not even have clear definitions for these words, but in your mind and word usage, you have subconscious definitions at least that manifest themselves in what you say and how you act. They are probably the result of years of teaching and preaching from others, but that’s the dilemma! It’s VERY HARD to break away from teachings that have been made traditional for a person! YOU DON’T KNOW THAT YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT YOU DON’T KNOW! It’s really a “Catch-22!” That’s why I call it a “paradigm shift!” It’s really going to take a lot of work to change if you’ve been subjected to that form of teaching all your life as a believer!”

I’m really scratching my head here. A “national” rescue is nowhere in sight in the definition of salvation. Neither is “personal deliverance from sin”. Where in the world did you get that idea? Here’s what you need to know. The physical, in all its aspects, is totally irrelevant. The bible deals mostly, especially in the NT, with the spiritual (which does not mean air, if you had a heart knowledge of God you would recognize this). More on this later but if you happen to be any part of John Rood’s cult or the HRM (Hebrew Roots Movement), then you, my friend, are on a seriously wrong track!!!

ALL of us, be we Christian or Messianic, upon Salvation are saved (rescued/delivered) from one thing and one thing alone and that is eternal death and damnation.

John 3:16 – “ For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (contrasted with “perish” = eternal death!)

1 John 3:14 – “…we have passed from death unto life…” Our physical lives don’t matter!

Matt. 10:28 – “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”


Salvation is just the beginning. We don’t get “delivered” from sin itself, we get delivered from a “life” of sin. So the next step is “forgiveness of sins” committed, NOT deliverance from all sin! Upon receiving salvation and forgiveness, we are a new creation with a new beginning. We are “justified” in the sight of God, in other words, it is “just as if I’d” never sinned! We will still sin because we will never become “sinless” this side of eternity, but as we grow in Christ, we will “sin less” than we used to.

I don’t know any other way to say this except by being blunt. What you “see” in the scriptures you mentioned, and what you think “I see” is totally wrong and it’s no LOL matter!

Your words: “LOL!!! Again, you are misusing the word “spiritual.” “Spiritual” does NOT mean “non-physical!”

This really isn’t a laughing matter. You are so far off course, it may be too hard to correct. You show you have no understanding, but how could you when you deny the very thing, “the spiritual nature,” that gives us this understanding.

1 Co. 2:11-14 – “For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

How can one “discern” the truth if they deny the spiritual nature within themselves which is a VERY non-physical thing??!!! You act like the belief in the spirit is “foolishness” so this verse suits you well! So, if one is not utilizing their spiritual nature they should question everything they believe that is NOT based on the revelations of the Holy Spirit. The next verse seems to apply to you as well based on your post in general.

2 Tim. 3:5 – “Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.”

The “power” of a believer comes from their “spiritual” nature, which you deny. Then we have this passage: Rom. 8:4-6 – “That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.”

The definition of the word “spiritually” in the Strong’s Gr. 4153 is NON-PHYSICAL! So again, if you don’t believe in the non-physical aspects of our spiritual nature, can one even be assured of salvation?? Here’s another interesting thing from the Strong’s. Under the def. for G4152 “pneumatikos” it says to compare with G5591 which is “psuchikos”. Here we read that G4152 is a “contrast” word that compares our “higher, renovated nature” (spiritual) from the lower G5446 bestial nature (natural). This “higher, renovated nature” is the very “spiritual nature” which you deny. Let me take a page from your book and toss out some more scripture for you to dwell on.

Eph. 4:23 – “And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;”

Col. 1:9 – “For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding.”

Gal. 5:17-18 – “For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.”

The spiritual warfare that we as believers are called to do is a “non-physical” type of warfare. It takes place in the spiritual realm, similar to what was described in Dan. 10:13. It is done by prayer, intercession and faith as well as the “spiritual” armor we wear as described in Eph. 6:10-17. This “spiritual” armor is also a “non-physical” thing. Finally we have:

Gal. 5:25 – “If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.”

So, how do you walk in the spirit, when you deny its very existence? I’m not the one that has no understanding of what is meant by spiritual. That, my friend, is you!

Your words: “Furthermore, Yeshua` said that he was NOT a “spirit!” Bare grain may be physical but then so are the plants that spring from that grain!”

You know as well as I do, that the word “spirit” there meant a “ghost”! But then again, maybe you don’t. You see when one walks in the spirit and reads the words of the bible with spiritual guidance, one learns that quite often what the words actually say, is far different from what the words really mean, but one has to be on that spiritual level, that you say doesn’t exist, to understand that because those types of meanings are “spiritually discerned”!

Regarding certain aspects of the “spirit”, you said: “Now, would YOU like to tell me just what do these verses mean, since you don’t like my understanding of them?” *

I would say look at the other definitions in the Strong’s for each word.
G4151 – vital principle, mental disposition (superhuman), Christ’s spirit, divine
G4152 – non-carnal, ethereal, (divinely) supernatural, regenerate
G4153 – non-physical, divinely

Does it mean what you say in Genesis? Yes, but the translation to Greek most of the time has zero to do with air or wind and everything to do with the “spiritual” nature of Christianity.

*Okay, I see now your question wasn’t about the spirit verses, but I’ll still leave my response, however, on the Is., Joel and Zech. passages, I’ll answer later on the “Resurrection” post you started about them.

Your words: “Just look up the definition of “catholic,” would you? It’s exasperating for someone to deny a simple definition that’s been true for at least one and a half millennia!”

Yes, I see one of the defs. is “universal”, but as I ascribe the word “catholic” to the religion, it does not mean “universal” to me. However, when I look up the word “universal” it DOES NOT have as a definition, “catholic”, it says, def. 2 “relating to, involving or affecting all those belonging to a given class or group”, which is what I mean, so I am using the word correctly!

Your words: “And when is the last time that YOU considered that these parables were the CHRIST’S parables, that is, they were the MESSIAH’S parables?... But, they were NOT already living in it! They had the Messiah present who could have GIVEN them the Kingdom of God, but they chose to REJECT the Messiah of God! You are just plain WRONG that the Kingdom of God is “a spiritual kingdom, not a physical one!” First of all, you have another assumed, erroneous definition of that word “spiritual”; that is, it is a “non-physical” kingdom! Nothing could be farther from the truth.”

I’ll take you back to your words: “'That the “Kingdom of God,” or “God’s Kingdom,” is the same as that over which David and Shlomoh (Solomon) ruled, literal on this earth in the near future, not ethereal in some “heaven” far away in the present”

Obviously, it’s not the “same”.

Your words: “Second, there you go again with “spiritual!” Can you begin to understand how much I HATE how that word is abused?”

Perhaps, it’s your natural man at war with your spiritual man because once you realize the truth of what I’m trying to explain, it will “rock your world” and your “natural” man is very fearful of that. It will change much of your outlook, you may find some error to your way of thinking and your “natural” man just bristles at the possibility you could be totally wrong in your viewpoint. You, my friend, are in a spiritual battle as we speak and I pray that Christ’s and your “spirit” will be overcomers.

Your words: “When Yeshua` ascended into the sky, no longer was that offer of the Kingdom in place! It was rescinded! Instead, they were left “DESOLATE!”

Yes, and despite what you claim a little later, that offer was extended to the Gentiles because of their rejection. Your verse:
Matt. 21:42-43 – “Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”

Your words: “These verses are NOT implying that the Kingdom of God once ruled by David the King would be given to another people – a different nation! He is talking about another time in the future when Israel will be formed again! That would be the “nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” That’s why it wasn’t “nations” (plural); it was “nation” (singular)”

Poppycock!! All believers combined create a “holy” nation because we are ONE in Him regardless of how many actual nations we come from. We are citizens of a NEW nation!! I’m sorry you’re going to have to face this reality but it really is NOT “all” about Israel!! Yes, they have a future but the past is past.

1 Peter 2:9-10 – “ But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; 10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”

Your words: “However, what YOU need to understand is that this “world-wide Kingdom” won’t happen overnight or instantaneously! It will GROW from being the smallest of Kingdoms into a Kingdom that engulfs the world!”

This doesn’t ring true if, as you stated in the past, that “all” of Israel will be resurrected to become part of this kingdom. It would start out very large, imo. If you add all the resurrected Christians throughout history, it will probably begin as the largest nation ever.

Your words regarding Luke 4: “However, He didn’t say that the whole prophecy was fulfilled, just the portion that He read. Indeed, the prophecy goes on…”

That’s correct and, imo, the same as Dan. 9. Can you show me a scripture that declares 70AD was the fulfillment of Dan.9? No, you can’t. It is just the opinion of some men. A small portion of Dan. 9 may have been fulfilled but certainly not all as in the case of Luke 4.

Your words: “It’s WRONG to take fulfilled prophetic Scripture out of context and make it look like it’s UNFULFILLED prophecy! It’s deceptive, and it’s a LIE! Furthermore, it confuses people about how prophecy works. When GOD’S prophets spoke His words, the test of a valid prophet of God was that their prophecies would come true 100% of the time! IF those prophecies had more than one fulfillment, then HOW IN THE WORLD can a person determine whether that prophecy has truly been fulfilled or not?

You answered your own question. 100% accuracy, not 98% or 99%...100% and that’s why I don’t believe 70AD was a fulfillment of Dan. 9. My bible says there were 44 prophetic passages that Christ fulfilled with His life and death. If 43 of them were fulfilled but let’s say Christ was born in Rome instead of Bethlehem, would He still be the Messiah? My opinion would be NO! It’s not up to us to “figure out” if a prophecy has been fulfilled or not. It’s up to the Holy Spirit to show us because a “spiritual” fulfillment could be in sight instead of a “physical” one and that is why so many Jews didn’t recognize Christ for who He was. They were expecting a “physical” deliverer, not a ‘spiritual” one!

Your words: “It’s just like taking Romans 10:13 for “personal deliverance from sin.” That verse is NOT about a person’s justification from God. HOWEVER, there are OTHER verses that fit that subject much better, like 2 Corinthians 5:21 and Yeshua`s own parable in Luke 18:9-14. Romans 10:13 is a quotation from Joel 2:32 which is part of the prophecy about the national deliverance of Israel.”

First highlighted part: In my 50+ years of being a Christian I have NEVER heard salvation described as “personal deliverance from sin” so you’re absolutely correct to say that would be a bad interpretation of Rom. 10:13. ALL of the teachings in the NT are for the “ONE” in Christ. The united Jewish and Gentile believers who have accepted Him as Lord and Messiah! From the beginning of history the salvation of the Gentile nations has always been part of God’s plan.

Those who believe His plan to consist of Plan A salvation of the Jews, then oops, go to plan B, salvation of the Gentiles, are wrong in their understanding. It’s Plan A, pt. 1, salvation of the Jews, pt.2 salvation to the rest of the world. To repeat myself, a “national rescue” is nowhere in sight! All of us are “saved” from eternal death and damnation, period!

Second highlighted part: You’re right about the origination but wrong in the context. Joel 2:12 – 27 are indeed about Judah’s and the “children of Zion’s” last opportunity for eternal salvation. It’s NEVER national “rescue” and ALWAYS “spiritual salvation”, to the members of the Jewish nation, as I will show.

However, Joel 2:28-32 are about events before the Day of the Lord.

Joel 2:28-32 – “And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

(Peter proclaims in Acts 2:16-21 that the red part was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost!)

30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

(We know the green part is speaking of the signs that precede the Day of the Lord)

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: (“saved” in Acts 2:21)

(the blue part was the last part of Acts 2:21, thus affirming it was NOT speaking of a “national” rescue but a “spiritual” one. This is cut off just like Christ did in Luke 4, leaving the latter part of vs. 32 unsaid. At the time Peter was speaking, that road to “spiritual” salvation was JUST for the Jews. It didn’t open up to the Gentiles until after Peter had his vision concerning Cornelius. Now let’s take a look at the latter half of the verse.)

for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.”

It’s my opinion, the first part of this latter half is speaking of Zech. 9:9 and that “deliverance” was the spiritual offer of salvation that Christ came to bring to the Jews first. The “remnant” here, in the context of the day of the Lord, I believe to be the 144,000+ of Revelation which are mentioned immediately after the signs of Rev. 6. The word “remnant” to me always entails a “minority”, never a majority as you believe the word “all” implies in Romans.
 

ATP

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Not sure why this topic is discussed so much. It's not like anyone is gonna solve the puzzle soon.

Dan 12:4 But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge."
 

Retrobyter

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Shabbat shalom, ATP.

ATP said:
Not sure why this topic is discussed so much. It's not like anyone is gonna solve the puzzle soon.

Dan 12:4 But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge."
Obviously, you’ve not been following along. Furthermore, we’re IN the “time of the end,” and have been since the first century!

Hebrews 9:24-26
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world (Greek: aioonoon = “ of the age”) hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
KJV


Besides, this conversation has mutated far beyond the typical rhetoric of the topic's title.

Perhaps, you will enjoy the conversation....
 

ATP

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Retrobyter said:
Shabbat shalom, ATP.


Obviously, you’ve not been following along. Furthermore, we’re IN the “time of the end,” and have been since the first century!

Hebrews 9:24-26
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world (Greek: aioonoon = “ of the age”) hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
KJV


Besides, this conversation has mutated far beyond the typical rhetoric of the topic's title.

Perhaps, you will enjoy the conversation....
It's not the first time I've discussed Dan 9 on a forum. For every 20 people posting there's 20 different views.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Trekson.

I’m going to lump certain points together into one, because as I see it, they are all related:

The nature of FAITH: (Heb. 11:1)

Your words: 'I’m really beginning to question whether you have any “heart” knowledge of God or not. I think you need to get out of your head knowledge because as you write it shows that you don’t even have the basic knowledge of scripture that most Sunday School kids learn by the time they’re six or seven. The highlighted part is EXACTLY what faith is (i.e., Faith IS hoping for things and not seeing things). FAITH is the “substance and evidence” here, not the written word. Many claim the bible is a bunch of lies, the written words of the bible don’t prove or disprove that. It is only by the unseen “spiritual” aspects of Christianity do we “hold these truths to be self-evident”. I can’t “see” God, yet I have faith that He exists. I don’t “see or touch love” yet I know it exists. If something could be proven by the written word, there would be no need of faith. The written word would suffice.'

Your words: 'In the beginning of our walk with Him, that is EXACTLY what we do (i.e. we DO blindly follow our God)! Only as we grow in Him and see His word working in our lives do we change in little ways from faith to knowledge, but without blind faith to start we would never learn the knowledge of His reality.'

Your words: 'Not really, if it (having faith) was as easy as you say, everyone would be doing it. There is more than one level of faith. I can have faith that when I switch on my lights, they will come on, but it doesn’t always work. I can have faith that when I go out to start my car in the morning, it will start, but again that doesn’t always happen. However, trusting in someone you can’t see or hear (in normal ways) or even prove to another person that He exists takes faith to a whole ‘nother “leaping off a cliff” level!'

Your words: 'What you said (we can still learn to TRUST GOD) was true, however, faith and trust are two different things. Faith leads to trust only when the faith has been proven justified.'

To all of this I simply say this: Perhaps the “faith” that you THINK you have is not the same as the “faith” of the Scriptures. The Hebrew word “emuwnaah” and the Greek word “pistisDO mean “trust” more than they mean “faith,” as you define it! It’s not about “us”; it’s all about “GOD!” That’s important to understand because to have biblical “faith,” one must learn to look AWAY from oneself and turn to the LORD! One must find all of his strength in GOD! From the time that one is first justified by GOD, he or she must learn that there is NOTHING in oneself to be good enough to merit GOD’S favor! Why do you think there is such a link between these two words?

Faith in GOD = Trust in GOD
Faithful = Trustworthy = Constant
Faithfulness = Trustworthiness = Consistency
Faithless = Untrustworthy = one who can’t be counted on
GOD is faithful = GOD is trustworthy = one can count on GOD!
To be faithful = To trust = To count on consistently!

The WHOLE point is that we can COUNT ON GOD!
Consider the whole family of Hebrew words based on the “alef-meim-nun” spelling: These words are ALL spelled the same (with the addition of a “hei” in feminine words) in the Hebrew alefbet! Only the vowel sounds, and the vowel pointing attached when written, change!

OT:525 'aamown (aw-mone'); from OT:539, probably in the sense of training; skilled, i.e. an architect [like OT:542]:
KJV - one brought up.


OT:526 'Aamown (aw-mone'); the same as OT:525; Amon, the name of three Israelites:
KJV - Amon.


OT:529 'eemuwn (ay-moon'); from OT:539; established, i.e. (figuratively) trusty; also (abstractly) trustworthiness:
KJV - faith (-ful), truth.


OT:530 'emuwnaah (em-oo-naw'); or (shortened) 'emunaah (em-oo-naw'); feminine of OT:529; literally firmness; figuratively security; morally fidelity:
KJV - faith (-ful, -ly, -ness, [man]), set office, stability, steady, truly, truth, verily.


OT:539 'aaman (aw-man'); a primitive root; properly, to build up or support; to foster as a parent or nurse; figuratively to render (or be) firm or faithful, to trust or believe, to be permanent or quiet; morally to be true or certain; once (Isa 30:21; interchangeable with OT:541) to go to the right hand:
KJV - hence, assurance, believe, bring up, establish, fail, be faithful (of long continuance, stedfast, sure, surely, trusty, verified), nurse, (-ing father), (put), trust, turn to the right.


OT:540 'aman (Aramaic) (am-an'); corresponding to OT:539:
KJV - believe, faithful, sure.


OT:541 'aaman (aw-man'); denominative from OT:3225; to take the right hand road:
KJV - turn to the right. See OT:539.


OT:542 'aamaan (aw-mawn'); from OT:539 (in the sense of training); an expert:
KJV - cunning workman.


OT:543 'aameen (aw-mane'); from OT:539; sure; abstract, faithfulness; adverb, truly:
KJV - Amen, so be it, truth.


OT:544 'omen (oh-men'); from OT:539; verity:
KJV - truth.


OT:545 'omnaah (om-naw'); feminine of OT:544 (in the specific sense of training); tutelage:
KJV - brought up.


OT:546 'omnaah (om-naw'); feminine form of OT:544 (in its usual sense); adverb, surely:
KJV - indeed.


OT:547 'omenaah (om-me-naw'); feminine active participle of OT:544 (in the original sense of supporting); a column:
KJV - pillar.


OT:548 'amaanaah (am-aw-naw'); feminine of OT:543; something fixed, i.e. a covenant. an allowance:
KJV - certain portion, sure.


OT:549 'Amaanaah (am-aw-naw'); the same as OT:548; Amanah, a mountain near Damascus:
KJV - Amana.


'emunah. See OT:530.

OT:550 'Amnown (am-nohn'); or 'Amiynown (am-ee-nohn'); from OT:539; faithful; Amnon (or Aminon), a son of David:
KJV - Amnon.


OT:551 'omnaam (om-nawm'); adverb from OT:544; verily:
KJV - indeed, no doubt, surely, (it is, of a) true (-ly, -th).


OT:552 'umnaam (oom-nawm'); an orthographical variation of OT:551:
KJV - in (very) deed; of a surety.


(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

It’s not about having a “spiritual hope” in GOD; the English word “hope” has lost its original meaning. Today, it’s a word meaning “a feeling of expectation and desire for a certain thing to happen”. We use it to say, “Cross your fingers, I sure do HOPE that it will happen, (but I’m not sure it will).”

However, it used to mean “confidence” or “assurance!” That’s why we sing the song, “Blessed Assurance!” It’s all about having a concrete CONFIDENCE in GOD! It’s coming to the point where one can KNOW with SURETY - with ASSURANCE - that GOD will provide! THAT’S what “FAITH” is! Don’t confuse “faith” with “blindly obeying GOD'S commands.” That’s the FEAR of GOD ... having a healthy RESPECT for GOD, enough to do what one is supposed to do out of that respect for GOD! And, when one does what GOD commands, then GOD will step in and do for that one what HE will - what HE chooses to do. Obedience to GOD will lead to a right relationship with GOD, but it is CONFIDENCE in GOD that is called “FAITH” in the Bible.
This is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT!!! It’s one of the FIRST things a new believer should be taught!
Habakkuk 2:4
4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
KJV

Rom 1:17
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
KJV

The Greek translation of the Hebrew text of Habakkuk (Chabaqquwq) 2:4, “V-tsadiyq be’emuwnaatow yichyeh,” is “ho de dikaios ek pisteoos zeesetai” in Romans 1:17. This “pisteoos" is the genitive, feminine singular noun form of “pistis":

NT:4102 pistis (pis'-tis); from NT:3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:
KJV - assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.



(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Please understand that these two words, be'emuwnaatow and pisteoos, are related enough that they were so translated in Scripture!

Now, the children of Israel did not hold it in their hearts, which got them into trouble later, but for a time, however brief, ALL ISRAEL KNEW that their GOD was THE God and that there was no other like Him, when they witnessed first-hand GOD’S parting of the Red Sea, their rescue from imminent destruction, and the subsequent destruction of Pharaoh and his armies! It so moved them, that Mosheh sang a song in praise to GOD, and all Israel learned and sang that song (with the help of Miryam, Mosheh’s sister) on the road up from the Red Sea!

Exodus 14:5-31
5 When the king of Egypt was told that the people had fled, Pharaoh and his servants had a change of heart toward the people. They said, “What have we done, letting Isra’el stop being our slaves?” 6 So he prepared his chariots and took his people with him — 7 he took 600 first-quality chariots, as well as all the other chariots in Egypt, along with their commanders. 8 Adonai made Pharaoh hardhearted, and he pursued the people of Isra’el, as they left boldly. 9 The Egyptians went after them, all the horses and chariots of Pharaoh, with his cavalry and army, and overtook them as they were encamped by the sea, by Pi-Hachirot, in front of Ba‘al-Tz’fon. 10 As Pharaoh approached, the people of Isra’el looked up and saw the Egyptians right there, coming after them. In great fear the people of Isra’el cried out to Adonai 11 and said to Moshe, “Was it because there weren’t enough graves in Egypt that you brought us out to die in the desert? Why have you done this to us, bringing us out of Egypt? 12 Didn’t we tell you in Egypt to let us alone, we’ll just go on being slaves for the Egyptians? It would be better for us to be the Egyptians’ slaves than to die in the desert!” 13 Moshe answered the people, “Stop being so fearful! Remain steady, and you will see how Adonai is going to save you. He will do it today — today you have seen the Egyptians, but you will never see them again! 14 Adonai will do battle for you. Just calm yourselves down!”
15 Adonai asked Moshe, “Why are you crying to me? Tell the people of Isra’el to go forward! 16 Lift your staff, reach out with your hand over the sea, and divide it in two. The people of Isra’el will advance into the sea on dry ground. 17 As for me, I will make the Egyptians hardhearted; and they will march in after them; thus I will win glory for myself at the expense of Pharaoh and all his army, chariots and cavalry. 18 Then the Egyptians will realize that I am Adonai, when I have won myself glory at the expense of Pharaoh, his chariots and his cavalry.”
19 Next, the angel of God, who was going ahead of the camp of Isra’el, moved away and went behind them; and the column of cloud moved away from in front of them and stood behind them. 20 It stationed itself between the camp of Egypt and the camp of Isra’el — there was cloud and darkness here, but light by night there; so that the one did not come near the other all night long.
21 Moshe reached his hand out over the sea, and Adonai caused the sea to go back before a strong east wind all night. He made the sea become dry land, and its water was divided in two. 22 Then the people of Isra’el went into the sea on the dry ground, with the water walled up for them on their right and on their left.
23 The Egyptians continued their pursuit, going after them into the sea — all Pharaoh’s horses, chariots and cavalry. 24 Just before dawn, Adonai looked out on the Egyptian army through the column of fire and cloud and threw them into a panic. 25 He caused the wheels of their chariots to break off, so that they could move only with difficulty. The Egyptians said, “Adonai is fighting for Isra’el against the Egyptians! Let’s get away from them!”
26 Adonai said to Moshe, “Reach your hand out over the sea, and the water will return and cover the Egyptians with their chariots and cavalry.” 27 Moshe reached his hand out over the sea, and by dawn the sea had returned to its former depth. The Egyptians tried to flee, but Adonai swept them into the sea. 28 The water came back and covered all the chariots and cavalry of Pharaoh’s army who had followed them into the sea — not even one of them was left. 29 But the people of Isra’el walked on dry ground in the sea, with the water walled up for them on their right and on their left.
30 On that day, Adonai saved Isra’el from the Egyptians; Isra’el saw the Egyptians dead on the shore. 31 When Isra’el saw the mighty deed that Adonai had performed against the Egyptians, the people feared Adonai, and they believed in Adonai and in his servant Moshe.

CJB


Exodus 15:1-21
15:1 Then Moshe and the people of Isra’el sang this song to Adonai:


“I will sing to Adonai, for he is highly exalted:
the horse and its rider he threw in the sea.


2 Yah is my strength and my song,
and he has become my salvation (rescue).
This is my God: I will glorify him;
my father’s God: I will exalt him.
3 Adonai is a warrior;
Adonai is his name.


4 Pharaoh’s chariots and his army
he hurled into the sea.
His elite commanders
were drowned in the Sea of Suf.
5 The deep waters covered them;
they sank to the depths like a stone.

6 Your right hand, Adonai, is sublimely powerful;
your right hand, Adonai, shatters the foe.
7 By your great majesty you bring down your enemies;
you send out your wrath to consume them like stubble.

8 With a blast from your nostrils the waters piled up —
the waters stood up like a wall,
the depths of the sea became firm ground.
9 The enemy said, ‘I will pursue and overtake,
divide the spoil and gorge myself on them.
I will draw my sword; my hand will destroy them.’
10 You blew with your wind, the sea covered them,
they sank like lead in the mighty waters.

11 Who is like you, Adonai, among the mighty?
Who is like you, sublime in holiness,
awesome in praises, working wonders?

12 You reached out with your right hand:
the earth swallowed them.
13 In your love, you led the people you redeemed;
in your strength, you guided them to your holy abode.

14 The peoples have heard, and they tremble;
anguish takes hold of those living in P’leshet (Philistia, the land of the Philistines, and source of the word “Palestine");
15 then the chiefs of Edom (Esau’s children) are dismayed;
trepidation seizes the heads of Mo’av (Lot’s children);
all those living in Kena‘an are melted away.
16 Terror and dread fall on them;
by the might of your arm they are still as stone
until your people pass over, Adonai,
till the people you purchased pass over.


17 You will bring them in and plant them
on the mountain which is your heritage,
the place, Adonai, that you made your abode,
the sanctuary, Adonai, which your hands established.


18 Adonai will reign forever and ever.

19 For the horses of Pharaoh went with his chariots
and with his cavalry into the sea,
but Adonai brought the sea waters back upon them,
while the people of Isra’el walked on dry land
in the midst of the sea!”



20 Also Miryam the prophet, sister of Aharon, took a tambourine in her hand; and all the women went out after her with tambourines, dancing, 21 as Miryam sang to them:


“Sing to Adonai, for he is highly exalted!
The horse and its rider he threw in the sea!”

CJB


THAT’S how to have “faith in GOD!” - TRUST in GOD! And, THAT is GOD'S rescue! GOD'S “SALVATION!"

Now, when I said, “It’s EASY to have faith” - to TRUST in a GOD like that, it IS easy when your focus is on such a GOD by whom you SEE SUCH EVIDENCE! I didn’t say, however, that it would be intuitive or natural. The children of Israel followed Mosheh (Moses) out into the desert blindly and obediently, but they had no faith in GOD at that time, except in what they saw GOD do TO the Egyptians in the 10 plagues. It wasn’t until GOD stepped in and they experienced His DELIVERANCE FOR themselves that they started to see that they could trust such a GOD. And, while few at the time actually understood it, the beginnings of trust in GOD were formed.

Now, when I said, ‘So, when we read something like Romans 9 through 11, one should understand that the “all Israel” in 11:26 is Paul talking about all the children of Israel, not the Goyim or the Gentiles – all the other nations of the earth. Why? Because of the CONTRAST! These “all Israel” are not contrasted to the Gentiles who do not believe but to the Gentiles who DID believe,'

you said, 'Yes and no. It’s not all Israel in general, the contrast is between believing Israel and believing Gentile. An unbelieving Israelite has zero standing with God just as an unbelieving Gentile doesn’t! Come judgment day, I dare say an unbelieving Philistine has a better chance than an unbelieving Jew because “where there is no law, there is no sin”. What is unbelief? It’s simply a lack of faith. Faith in God is what we all are justified by. Without it there is no justification available to anyone be they Jew or Gentile.'

Simply put, you are wrong. The contrast is between believing Israel and believing Gentile? Really?! Is that why Paul said,

Romans 11:23-25
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.


KJV

and

Romans 11:28
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.


KJV?

Who is Paul talking about if not about the "UNBELIEVING children of Israel?” He is CERTAINLY NOT talking about the “BELIEVING children of Israel!"

Next, when I said, ‘Therefore, the “all Israel” DOES NOT INCLUDE the believing Gentiles!’ and
you said, 'That is true but neither does it include unbelieving Jews. If a Jew doesn’t have a relationship with God they are no more Israel than an ancient South African Nubian.

Rom. 4:13-14 – “For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect,”'

how can that be? Again, you are wrong. First, this is NOT what Paul meant in Romans 4:13-14. He was simply talking about the promise of Yitschaq (Isaac) not being based on any law in the Torah, but was based upon Avraham’s trust in God’s promise. One does not just follow a set of rules to become an heir of the world; one simply trusts God’s promises. However, a Jew, who is one born of Yhudah (Judah), and is therefore born of Yisra’eel (Israel), and is therefore born of Yitschaq (Isaac) who was born of Avraham (Abraham) by his TRUST in GOD’S promise, IS still therefore part of God’s promise! The words are “the promise ... was not to Avraham ... through the law, but through the righteousness of faith" or TRUST!


The nature of SALVATION vs. JUSTIFICATION:

You said,I consider the following the most important discussion we have had to date and to me, I’m sorry if this offends you, it shows your total lack of understanding of the basics of Christianity.'

I said: 'IF your definition of “salvation” is “God’s justification of an individual” or the “new birth,” then your INTERPRETATION of the passage is going to be one way, BUT if you define “salvation” as a “national rescue,” your INTERPRETATION of that SAME PASSAGE is going to give you an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT VIEW! It’s not “God’s Word” that disagrees with my understanding; it’s YOUR INTERPRETATION of God’s Word that disagrees with my understanding! Your INTERPRETATION of God’s Word SLANTS your view of ALL Scripture! And again, your interpretation is based upon your DEFINITIONS of these key, fundamental words! You may not even have clear definitions for these words, but in your mind and word usage, you have subconscious definitions at least that manifest themselves in what you say and how you act. They are probably the result of years of teaching and preaching from others, but that’s the dilemma! It’s VERY HARD to break away from teachings that have been made traditional for a person! YOU DON’T KNOW THAT YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT YOU DON’T KNOW! It’s really a “Catch-22!” That’s why I call it a “paradigm shift!” It’s really going to take a lot of work to change if you’ve been subjected to that form of teaching all your life as a believer!'

Then, you said, 'I’m really scratching my head here. A “national” rescue is nowhere in sight in the definition of salvation. Neither is “personal deliverance from sin”. Where in the world did you get that idea? Here’s what you need to know. The physical, in all its aspects, is totally irrelevant. The bible deals mostly, especially in the NT, with the spiritual (which does not mean air, if you had a heart knowledge of God you would recognize this). More on this later but if you happen to be any part of John Rood’s cult or the HRM (Hebrew Roots Movement), then you, my friend, are on a seriously wrong track!!!
ALL of us, be we Christian or Messianic, upon Salvation are saved (rescued/delivered) from one thing and one thing alone and that is eternal death and damnation.

The answer to this should be obvious. When I said that some believe “salvation is personal deliverance from sin,” I was basically saying what you said at the end of this paragraph, that “salvation is personal rescue or deliverance from eternal death and damnation,” for “the wages of sin is death.” (Rom. 6:23).

I’m saying that both of those definitions, whichever you prefer, are WRONG! They misappropriate the word “salvation,” the noun form of the verb “to be saved!"

The word “saved” (Greek: sootheesetai = “shall be saved") in Romans 10:13, comes from “delivered” (Hebrew: yimaaleeT = “shall be delivered") in Joel 2:32 (Yo’el 3:5 in the Tanakh):
Romans 10:13
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
KJV


Joel 2:32
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
KJV


and “yimaaleeT” is a form of the word “maalaT”:
OT:4422 maalaT (maw-lat'); a primitive root; properly, to be smooth, i.e. (by implication) to escape (as if by slipperiness); causatively, to release or rescue; specifically, to bring forth young, emit sparks:
KJV - deliver (self), escape, lay, leap out, let alone, let go, preserve, save, speedily, surely.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Furthermore, Yo’el's prophecy continues:
Joel 3:1-2
1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with (judge) them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
KJV


So, why did Paul use THIS verse in Romans 10:13? Go back a few verses:

Romans 10:1-15
10:1 Brothers, my heart’s deepest desire and my prayer to God for Isra’el is for their salvation; 2 for I can testify to their zeal for God. But it is not based on correct understanding; 3 for, since they are unaware of God’s way of making people righteous and instead seek to set up their own, they have not submitted themselves to God’s way of making people righteous. 4 For the goal at which the Torah aims is the Messiah, who offers righteousness to everyone who trusts. 5 For Moshe writes about the righteousness grounded in the Torah that the person who does these things will attain life through them. (Lev. 18:5) 6 Moreover, the righteousness grounded in trusting says:
“Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend to heaven (ouranos, the “sky")?’” (Deut. 30:12)—
that is, to bring the Messiah down — 7 or,
“‘Who will descend into Sh’ol? (the abyss or abussos, that is “without bottom")’” (Deut. 30:13)—
that is, to bring the Messiah up from the dead. 8 What, then, does it say?
The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart.” (Deut. 30:14)—
that is, the word about trust which we proclaim, namely, 9 that if you acknowledge publicly with your mouth that Yeshua is Lord (Master; Messiah) and trust in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be delivered. 10 For with the heart one goes on trusting and thus continues toward righteousness, while with the mouth one keeps on making public acknowledgement and thus continues toward deliverance. 11 For the passage quoted says that everyone who rests his trust on him will not be humiliated (disappointed). (Isa. 28:16) 12 That means that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile — Adonai is the same for everyone, rich toward everyone who calls on him, 13 since everyone who calls on the name of Adonai will be delivered. (Joel 2:32)
14 But how can they call on someone if they haven’t trusted in him? And how can they trust in someone if they haven’t heard about him? And how can they hear about someone if no one is proclaiming him? 15 And how can people proclaim him unless God sends them? — as the Tanakh puts it, “How beautiful are the feet of those announcing good news about good things!” (Isa. 52:7)
CJB

Romans 10:1-15
1 Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them.” (Lev. 18:5) 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?’” (Deut. 30:12) (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 "or 'Who will descend into the deep?’” (Deut. 30:13) (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” (Deut. 30:14) that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame (disappointed).” (Isa. 28:16) 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile — the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (Joel 2:32)
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” (Isa. 52:7)
NIV

Two different things are in sight here:

"believing/trusting --> justification" and
"confessing --> salvation!”

It’s JUSTIFICATION (by God) to which most refer to when they say “salvation.” But, the “salvation” here is talking about the “RESCUE” when the Messiah returns! The problem has been that Christians don’t know that there’s a difference between the two! While they are hinged together in the Return of the Master Yeshua`, they are technically NOT THE SAME THING!

John 3:16 – “ For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (contrasted with “perish” = eternal death!)
1 John 3:14 – “…we have passed from death unto life…” Our physical lives don’t matter!
Matt. 10:28 – “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”
Salvation is just the beginning. We don’t get “delivered” from sin itself, we get delivered from a “life” of sin. So the next step is “forgiveness of sins” committed, NOT deliverance from all sin! Upon receiving salvation and forgiveness, we are a new creation with a new beginning. We are “justified” in the sight of God, in other words, it is “just as if I’d” never sinned! We will still sin because we will never become “sinless” this side of eternity, but as we grow in Christ, we will “sin less” than we used to.'

First of all, please rest assured that I know I’ve been justified by God. I’ve said, “God, be merciful to me a sinner." I have come to Him and pleaded for His mercy and His grace, and He has done for me what I could not do for myself; that is, He has allowed His Son to be my sin and destroyed it on the Roman execution stake with His sacrifice. Then, He made me to be His Son’s righteousness - or rather, His own righteousness in His Son - and I have "traded places with God," as Paul described in 2 Corinthians 5. Thus, I have been "reconciled to God through the Messiah" Yeshua`s sacrificial death. I fully TRUST Him to do what He promised He would do; that is, to declare me “righteous” in spite of my sin, just as He declared Yeshua` to be “sin” for me in spite of His righteousness. It wasn’t a fair trade, but it was a just one.

Luke 18:9-14
9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

KJV

Pros Korinthious B 5:18-19

18 Ta de panta ek tou Thou tou katallaxantos heemas heautoo dia Christou kai dontos heemin teen diakonian tees katallagees,

19 hoos hoti Theos een en Christoo kosmon katallassoon heautoo, mee logizomenos autois ta paraptoomata autoon kai themenos en heemin ton logon tees katallagees.

The Greek New Testament (UBS)

18 Ta = 18 The
de = but
panta = all-things
ek = out-from
tou = of-the
Theou = God
tou = of-the
katallaxantos = mutually-exchanger (an aorist, active participle treated as genitive, masculine and singular)
heemas = us
heautoo = to-Himself
dia = through
Christou = Messiah
kai = and
dontos = has-given
heemin = to-us
teen = the
diakonian = service
tees = of-the
katallagees, = mutual-exchange,
19 hoos = 19 how
hoti = that
Theos = God
een = was
en = in
Christoo = Messiah
kosmon = a-world-system
katallassoon = mutually-exchanging
heautoo, = to-Himself
mee = not
logizomenos = calculating/considering/reckoning
autois = to-them
ta = the
paraptoomata = trespasses/sins
autoon = of-them/their
kai = and
themenos = having-put
en = in
heemin = us
ton = the
logon = word/message/subject
tees = of-the
katallagees. = mutual-exchange.

18 The but all-things out-from of-the God of-the mutually-exchanger us to-Himself through Messiah and has-given to-us the service of-the mutual-exchange,
19 how that God was in Messiah a-world-system mutually-exchanging to-Himself not calculating/considering/reckoning to-them the trespasses/sins of-them/their and having-put in us the word/message/subject of-the mutual-exchange.

18 But all the things [are] out of God who has mutually exchanged us to Himself through Messiah and has given to us the service of the mutual exchange,
19 how that God was in Messiah mutually exchanging a world-system to Himself not calculating/considering/reckoning their trespasses/sins to them and having put in us the word/message/subject of the mutual exchange.

2 Corinthians 5:21
21 For he (God) hath made him (the Messiah) to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him (the Messiah).


KJV

Just as He became our sin for us in spite of His righteousness, we become His righteousness in spite of our sin! We become TROPHIES to God for what the Messiah has accomplished!

Malachi 3:16-17
16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.


KJV

Isaiah 61:1-10
1 The Spirit of the LORD God is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;


2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.
5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.
7 For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them.
8 For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.
9 And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the LORD hath blessed.
10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.


KJV

And, be VERY CAREFUL when pulling things from the four Gospels and treating them as though you knew what they were talking about. These are accounts of Yeshua`s ministry TO THE JEWS and TO THE HOUSEHOLD OF ISRAEL, NOT to the Goyim (Gentiles) and the rest of the world! He was presenting Himself to Israel as the Messiah of God, their rightful King!

Matthew 10:5-8
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying,
Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand (i.e., within your grasp).
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

KJV

Matthew 15:22-28
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said,
I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said,
It is not meet (right) to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her,
O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
KJV


(This woman was an "EXCEPTION to the rule” as an object lesson to Israel, just as Rahab the Jericho prostitute and Ruth the foreign Moabitess were.)

So, I have to say it again, because STILL you aren’t listening: “Salvation” is the WRONG WORD when it comes to justification by God!

“Salvation,” ESPECIALLY in prophecy, is about God’s Messiah RESCUING national Israel when He returns to earth! It may SEEM like He is talking about justification, but that’s only because that is EVER as we have heard it from every preacher, evangelist, missionary, and teacher we’ve ever had in our churches! HOWEVER, there is an underlying current of information in the NT that we never get BECAUSE it is so glossed over! You want to waste your time on fictional, “spiritual,” allegorical interpretations of Scripture, that’s up to you, but if you REALLY want a challenge, find the REAL underlying information by looking at the quoted passages from the OT! Relying on God to be sure those Scripture passages were used in the same way that they were originally written, i.e., that they were not just “texts used out of context for pretexts," how Paul used those verses in the NT will be precisely as they were used in the OT. He will have quoted them for their meaning within their own contexts.

Now, I don’t know a “John Rood” but I know of a “Michael Rood.” The only “John Rood” I know is “John C. Rood” under President George W. Bush:

"John C. Rood (born 1968) was Acting Undersecretary of State for Arms Control and International Security.” - Wikipedia

No, I don’t agree with Michael Rood (talk show host of “A Rood Awakening”) on several matters and as far as the Hebrew Roots Movement is concerned, if ANYONE believes that justification by God comes by anything other than the Sacrifice of the Lamb of God, then it is unbiblical. The Scriptures are clear that God’s justification of a person comes solely through the grace of God. I believe in keeping the Torah because I believe that it is better for a person to do so; however, nothing that we do can merit God’s favor! And, NO ONE is justified by keeping the Torah! Nevertheless, it is still a good idea to keep Torah because it is healthier for a person’s body and mind to keep it.

You said, 'I don’t know any other way to say this except by being blunt. What you “see” in the scriptures you mentioned, and what you think “I see” is totally wrong and it’s no LOL matter!'

If I have misrepresented what YOU believe, then I sincerely apologize. However, if you are saying that what I see in the Scriptures is totally wrong, then “Houston, we have a major malfunction."


The nature of SPIRITUAL:

Your words: 'This really isn’t a laughing matter. You are so far off course, it may be too hard to correct. You show you have no understanding, but how could you when you deny the very thing, “the spiritual nature,” that gives us this understanding.'

Oh, really? Let’s look at a better way to understand each of these passages:

You said,
'1 Co. 2:11-14 – “For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
How can one “discern” the truth if they deny the spiritual nature within themselves which is a VERY non-physical thing??!!! You act like the belief in the spirit is “foolishness” so this verse suits you well! So, if one is not utilizing their spiritual nature they should question everything they believe that is NOT based on the revelations of the Holy Spirit.'

You’re not reading the passage with understanding! The “spirit of man” only knows the “things of a man!” It’s the "Ruach haQodesh Elohiym” ("the Holy Spirit of God") who knows the "things of God!” Thus, it is not OUR “spiritual nature” that is within us; it is GOD HIMSELF within us who freely gives us all these things! I do NOT deny either the existence of the Ruach haQodesh nor His power, but it’s nothing that WE can wield!

You said, 'The next verse seems to apply to you as well based on your post in general.
2 Tim. 3:5 – “Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.”
The “power” of a believer comes from their “spiritual” nature, which you deny.' T

OF COURSE I deny a “spiritual nature!” THAT is NOT from where we derive our power! We get “our" power DIRECTLY from GOD! It’s HIS power, not OURS! Even David knew that as a boy!
1 Samuel 17:34-37, 43-47
34 And David said unto Saul, Thy servant kept his father's sheep, and there came a lion, and a bear, and took a lamb out of the flock:
35 And I went out after him, and smote him, and delivered it out of his mouth: and when he arose against me, I caught him by his beard, and smote him, and slew him.
36 Thy servant slew both the lion and the bear: and this uncircumcised Philistine shall be as one of them, seeing he hath defied the armies of the living God.
37 David said moreover, The LORD that delivered me out of the paw of the lion, and out of the paw of the bear, he will deliver me out of the hand of this Philistine. And Saul said unto David, Go, and the LORD be with thee.
...

43 And the Philistine said unto David, Am I a dog, that thou comest to me with staves? And the Philistine cursed David by his gods.
44 And the Philistine said to David, Come to me, and I will give thy flesh unto the fowls of the air, and to the beasts of the field.
45 Then said David to the Philistine, Thou comest to me with a sword, and with a spear, and with a shield: but I come to thee in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom thou hast defied.
46 This day will the LORD deliver thee into mine hand; and I will smite thee, and take thine head from thee; and I will give the carcases of the host of the Philistines this day unto the fowls of the air, and to the wild beasts of the earth; that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel.
47 And all this assembly shall know that the LORD saveth not with sword and spear: for the battle is the LORD'S, and he will give you into our hands.
KJV


You said, 'Then we have this passage:
Rom. 8:4-6 – “That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.”
The definition of the word “spiritually” in the Strong’s Gr. 4153 is NON-PHYSICAL! So again, if you don’t believe in the non-physical aspects of our spiritual nature, can one even be assured of salvation??'

Well, I believe that the Ruach haQodesh is non-physical. But again, “spiritually minded” are the Greek words “froneema tou pneumatos” which literally translates to “an inclination/purpose of the Spirit.” Furthermore, it is contrasted within this verse and the next to “froneema tees sarkos,” “an inclination/purpose of the flesh.” Neither “pneumatikos” (NT:4152) nor “pneumatikoos” (NT:4153) are in these verses.
NT:5427 phroneema (fron'-ay-mah); from NT:5426; (mental) inclination or purpose:
KJV - (be, be carnally, be spiritually) mind (-ed).

NT:5426 phroneoo (fron-eh'-o); from NT:5424; to exercise the mind, i.e. entertain or have a sentiment or opinion; by implication, to be (mentally) disposed (more or less earnestly in a certain direction); intensively, to interest oneself in (with concern or obedience):
KJV - set the affection on, (be) care (-ful), (be like-, be of one, be of the same, let this) mind (-ed), regard, savour, think.

NT:5424 phreen (frane); probably from an obsolete phraoo (to rein in or curb; compare NT:5420); the midrif (as a partition of the body), i.e. (figuratively and by implication, of sympathy) the feelings (or sensitive nature; by extension [also in the plural] the mind or cognitive faculties):
KJV - understanding.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

You said, 'Here’s another interesting thing from the Strong’s. Under the def. for G4152 “pneumatikos” it says to compare with G5591 which is “psuchikos”. Here we read that G4152 is a “contrast” word that compares our “higher, renovated nature” (spiritual) from the lower G5446 bestial nature (natural). This “higher, renovated nature” is the very “spiritual nature” which you deny. Let me take a page from your book and toss out some more scripture for you to dwell on.
Eph. 4:23 – “And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;”
Col. 1:9 – “For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding.”
Gal. 5:17-18 – “For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.”'

The definition from “psuchikos” (G5591 or NT:5591) is the author trying to put these words in some sort of fabricated order: From lowest to highest, Strong (or the author of the dictionary) is saying that “phusikos” (NT:5446) is lower than “psuchikos” (NT:5591) which is lower than “pneumatikos” (NT:4152). “Phusikos,” btw, is the word from which we get our word “physical,” and “psuchikos” is where we get our words “psychic” and “psychology.” The word “phusikos” is ONLY found in three locations: Romans 1:26; 1:27; and 2 Peter 2:12. The word “psuchikos” is ONLY found in six locations: 1 Corinthians 2:14; 15:44 (twice), 15:46; James 3:15; and Jude 19. And, I’ve already shown you how the three in 15:44 and 46 compare with "pneumatikos."

You said, 'The spiritual warfare that we as believers are called to do is a “non-physical” type of warfare. It takes place in the spiritual realm, similar to what was described in Dan. 10:13. It is done by prayer, intercession and faith as well as the “spiritual” armor we wear as described in Eph. 6:10-17. This “spiritual” armor is also a “non-physical” thing. Finally we have:
Gal. 5:25 – “If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.”
So, how do you walk in the spirit, when you deny its very existence? I’m not the one that has no understanding of what is meant by spiritual. That, my friend, is you!'

As I’ve already said, I do NOT deny the Ruach haQodesh nor His power nor the things He provides, and SHAME ON YOU for suggesting that I would fall in that category simply because I don’t believe that this is talking about some “spiritual, non-physical thing!” A “spirit” can also mean an “attitude,” referring to the abstract subjects rather than the concrete subjects. That doesn’t make them less physical in how they apply to a person’s life. It just makes them apply in PRINCIPLE rather than specific, physical instances.

Your words: 'You know as well as I do, that the word “spirit” there meant a “ghost”! But then again, maybe you don’t. You see when one walks in the spirit and reads the words of the bible with spiritual guidance, one learns that quite often what the words actually say, is far different from what the words really mean, but one has to be on that spiritual level, that you say doesn’t exist, to understand that because those types of meanings are “spiritually discerned”!'

And just what, pray tell, IS a “ghost?” Isn’t it a being, real or imagined, that dissipates on the “WIND?"

You said, 'I would say look at the other definitions in the Strong’s for each word.
G4151 – vital principle, mental disposition (superhuman), Christ’s spirit, divine
G4152 – non-carnal, ethereal, (divinely) supernatural, regenerate
G4153 – non-physical, divinely

Does it mean what you say in Genesis? Yes, but the translation to Greek most of the time has zero to do with air or wind and everything to do with the “spiritual” nature of Christianity.

I’m trying to tell you that I HAVE and those other definitions raise more questions than they answer! The better response is as I’ve said: psuchee is the combination of the sooma and the pneuma. The words “psuchikos” and “pneumatikos” are merely adjective forms of these words “psuchee” and “pneuma."

Your words: 'Okay, I see now your question wasn’t about the spirit verses, but I’ll still leave my response, however, on the Is., Joel and Zech. passages, I’ll answer later on the “Resurrection” post you started about them.'

Fine. I look forward to that.

Your words: 'Yes, I see one of the defs. is “universal”, but as I ascribe the word “catholic” to the religion, it does not mean “universal” to me. However, when I look up the word “universal” it DOES NOT have as a definition, “catholic”, it says, def. 2 “relating to, involving or affecting all those belonging to a given class or group”, which is what I mean, so I am using the word correctly!'

To my claim that the Kingdom of God is not a “non-physical kingdom,” you said, 'I’ll take you back to your words: “'That the “Kingdom of God,” or “God’s Kingdom,” is the same as that over which David and Shlomoh (Solomon) ruled, literal on this earth in the near future, not ethereal in some “heaven” far away in the present.”
Obviously, it’s not the “same”.'

Oh! "Obviously!” NONSENSE! They are INDEED the same! Just do the research!

When I said, 'Second, there you go again with “spiritual!” Can you begin to understand how much I HATE how that word is abused?’ your words were: 'Perhaps, it’s your natural man at war with your spiritual man because once you realize the truth of what I’m trying to explain, it will “rock your world” and your “natural” man is very fearful of that. It will change much of your outlook, you may find some error to your way of thinking and your “natural” man just bristles at the possibility you could be totally wrong in your viewpoint. You, my friend, are in a spiritual battle as we speak and I pray that Christ’s and your “spirit” will be overcomers.'

I shouldn’t have to respond to such a ridiculous accusation. I am not in a “spiritual battle” as my spirit communes with the Ruach haQodesh and I am quite confident and at peace with what He has shown me. I don’t CARE to go back to that way of thinking because it itself denies the power of the Ruach haQodesh!

You said,
'Your words: “When Yeshua` ascended into the sky, no longer was that offer of the Kingdom in place! It was rescinded! Instead, they were left “DESOLATE!”
Yes, and despite what you claim a little later, that offer was extended to the Gentiles because of their rejection. Your verse:
Matt. 21:42-43 – “Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”

Your words: “These verses are NOT implying that the Kingdom of God once ruled by David the King would be given to another people – a different nation! He is talking about another time in the future when Israel will be formed again! That would be the “nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” That’s why it wasn’t “nations” (plural); it was “nation” (singular)”
Poppycock!! All believers combined create a “holy” nation because we are ONE in Him regardless of how many actual nations we come from. We are citizens of a NEW nation!! I’m sorry you’re going to have to face this reality but it really is NOT “all” about Israel!! Yes, they have a future but the past is past.
1 Peter 2:9-10 – “ But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; 10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”'


Now, I’m warning YOU: You are treading on VERY DANGEROUS GROUND because you are suggesting “Replacement Theology,” the anti-biblical interpretation of a few, certain verses to suggest that God has taken the Kingdom away from Israel (in essence, MAKING GOD A LIAR TO THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL, to whom He promised that Kingdom) and giving it to some false entity called “the Church!” Believers in the Messiah Yeshua` (which includes all the Gentiles who’ve been grafted in) are grafted into the NATION OF ISRAEL! All believers are adopted into the family of God, which did NOT start at Pentecost but started MUCH earlier than that! Thus, all believers are a SUBSET of the nation Israel as it existed under David! Why do you think family is so important to the Jews?!

The past is NOT just the past! It is the FUTURE! In the Resurrection, these children of Israel who have died WILL BE BACK!

You said,
'Your words: “However, what YOU need to understand is that this “world-wide Kingdom” won’t happen overnight or instantaneously! It will GROW from being the smallest of Kingdoms into a Kingdom that engulfs the world!”
This doesn’t ring true if, as you stated in the past, that “all” of Israel will be resurrected to become part of this kingdom. It would start out very large, imo. If you add all the resurrected Christians throughout history, it will probably begin as the largest nation ever.'

Actually, while there will be many people alive at the time, with their bodies recreated anew, there won’t be as many living in the borders of Israel as you might think. Furthermore, Israel will expand almost immediately after the great battle when our Lord returns, for immediately after the battle will come the aftermath of the war tribunal! During that time, Yeshua` will take over the lands of those nations living around Israel that (1) first belonged to the children of Israel, such as Syria and Jordan and Lebanon and the Gaza Strip and the Sinai Peninsula and the West Bank, and (2) were conquered during the great battle! Remember: MANY WILL DIE in that battle, killed by the Messiah Himself! Their lands and property shall be Yeshua`s spoil! So, yes, there will be a “growth spurt” immediately after the Rescue. However, after that, the nation will grow more slowly as the Messiah subdues His enemies one by one, as described in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28, over the course of a thousand years:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV


One must understand that this succinct summary of future history can be harmonized with Revelation 20:
Revelation 20:1-15
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
KJV


The rest I’ll discuss later.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Trekson.

Finally, I’m continuing on....


Regarding certain aspects of the “spirit”, I said: “Now, would YOU like to tell me just what do these verses mean, since you don’t like my understanding of them?
You said, 'I would say look at the other definitions in the Strong’s for each word.
G4151 – vital principle, mental disposition (superhuman), Christ’s spirit, divine
G4152 – non-carnal, ethereal, (divinely) supernatural, regenerate
G4153 – non-physical, divinely
Does it mean what you say in Genesis? Yes, but the translation to Greek most of the time has zero to do with air or wind and everything to do with the “spiritual” nature of Christianity.
*Okay, I see now your question wasn’t about the spirit verses, but I’ll still leave my response, however, on the Is., Joel and Zech. passages, I’ll answer later on the “Resurrection” post you started about them
.'

Okay, I’ll look for them there. However, you must be careful solely using Strong’s definitions. That book is NOT the only source of definition for these words. In fact, one must often look at the context of the usage of these words to be sure that they were translated correctly in light of everything else that is written in each context. See, translators today tend to have their own preconceived notions about what is being said in a particular passage and will slant their translation accordingly. Even the translators of the KJV had some preconceived notions that were short of the true meaning for certain passages. The good thing about the KJV over some of the other translations is that the translators endeavored to translate the Scriptures word-for-word, as close as possible. This gives the reader a better view of the Greek (and Hebrew) that was actually used prior to translation.

To my words regarding Luke 4: “However, He didn’t say that the whole prophecy was fulfilled, just the portion that He read. Indeed, the prophecy goes on…”,
you said, 'That’s correct and, imo, the same as Dan. 9. Can you show me a scripture that declares 70AD was the fulfillment of Dan.9? No, you can’t. It is just the opinion of some men. A small portion of Dan. 9 may have been fulfilled but certainly not all as in the case of Luke 4.'

NO!!! You haven’t been reading correctly! I’ve never said that all of Dan. 9 was fulfilled by 70 AD! To the contrary, Yeshua` SPLIT the seventieth Seven in HALF! By leaving them “desolate” (Matt. 23:38), He POSTPONED the second half of the Seven until a later time in history, after the Great Tribulation (approx. 2000 years), the Time of “Ya`aqov’s Trouble!” While MOST of the seventy Sevens were fulfilled by His first coming, the latter half will not be fulfilled until AFTER His SECOND coming!

My words: “It’s WRONG to take fulfilled prophetic Scripture out of context and make it look like it’s UNFULFILLED prophecy! It’s deceptive, and it’s a LIE! Furthermore, it confuses people about how prophecy works. When GOD’S prophets spoke His words, the test of a valid prophet of God was that their prophecies would come true 100% of the time! IF those prophecies had more than one fulfillment, then HOW IN THE WORLD can a person determine whether that prophecy has truly been fulfilled or not?

Your words: 'You answered your own question. 100% accuracy, not 98% or 99%...100% and that’s why I don’t believe 70AD was a fulfillment of Dan. 9. My bible says there were 44 prophetic passages that Christ fulfilled with His life and death. If 43 of them were fulfilled but let’s say Christ was born in Rome instead of Bethlehem, would He still be the Messiah? My opinion would be NO! It’s not up to us to “figure out” if a prophecy has been fulfilled or not. It’s up to the Holy Spirit to show us because a “spiritual” fulfillment could be in sight instead of a “physical” one and that is why so many Jews didn’t recognize Christ for who He was. They were expecting a “physical” deliverer, not a ‘spiritual” one!'

First of all, it was more like ten times as many prophecies fulfilled by the life, death, and resurrection of the Messiah.
Secondly, there are “NESTED prophecies”; that is, prophecies WITHIN prophecies! If prophecy A = prophecy B + prophecy C, then prophecies B and C are “nested” within prophecy A. It doesn’t matter whether prophecy A is complete or not for prophecy B or C to be complete with 100% accuracy! We only know that when prophecies B and C are BOTH complete (with 100% accuracy each), then prophecy A will be complete (ALSO with 100% accuracy)! Don’t make the mistake of thinking that, just because prophecy C is incomplete, that prophecy A is not 100% accurate as far as it goes with the complete fulfillment of prophecy B (with 100% accuracy)! It is merely INCOMPLETE!

To my statement, ‘It’s just like taking Romans 10:13 for “personal deliverance from sin.” That verse is NOT about a person’s justification from God. HOWEVER, there are OTHER verses that fit that subject much better, like 2 Corinthians 5:21 and Yeshua`s own parable in Luke 18:9-14. Romans 10:13 is a quotation from Joel 2:32 which is part of the prophecy about the national deliverance of Israel,’ in which you singled out the highlighted portions,
You said, ‘First highlighted part: In my 50+ years of being a Christian I have NEVER heard salvation described as “personal deliverance from sin” so you’re absolutely correct to say that would be a bad interpretation of Rom. 10:13. ALL of the teachings in the NT are for the “ONE” in Christ. The united Jewish and Gentile believers who have accepted Him as Lord and Messiah! From the beginning of history the salvation of the Gentile nations has always been part of God’s plan.

To that much, I say I stand corrected. It’s not accurate to say that it’s “personal deliverance from sin” but rather that some say that it’s “personal deliverance from the CONSEQUENCES of sin.” Whatever one may call it, the verse has NOTHING TO DO WITH “PERSONAL DELIVERANCE!
Secondly, I would AGREE with you that ‘ALL of the teachings in the NT are for the “ONE” in the Messiah.’ That’s what being a Messianic Jew is all about! However, there are logically three different, possible ways for the “believing children of Israel” and the “believing Goyim (Gentiles)” to become the “ONE”:

First, the “believing children of Israel” could become a part of the “believing Goyim,”

Second, the “believing Goyim” could become a part of the “believing children of Israel,” and

Third, the “believing children of Israel” and the “believing Goyim” could together become a new entity – a new nation, separate and distinct from either of the original two.

(There is also a fourth choice, namely that none of the three are right and that neither group “becomes” ANYTHING and that the “ONE” is accomplished by something else entirely. However, there is nothing in Scripture that suggests such a “fourth choice.”)

To date, Christians (who are primarily the “believing Goyim”) believe that it must be either the first choice (forcing the children of Israel to deny their heritage and become “Christians”) or the third choice (Replacement Theology), that we all become a NEW “Israel” which supersedes the original “Israel.”

I believe that Scripture supports the SECOND choice!

See, we both have to admit that we don’t know what the “good olive tree” represents exactly in Romans 11. We have our suspicions and our beliefs that we know what the “olive tree” is, but it is not defined within the text of Romans. So, we must look instead to the PREDICATES used within the chapter, and this is enough to discover the correct choice above:

Romans 11:23-29
23 And they (the childen of Israel) also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
KJV


We must see that whatever this “good olive tree” is, it belonged originally to the “children of Israel,” as they are the “NATURAL branches” and it was “THEIR own olive tree.” They are also “BELOVED” because of their fathers or because of the Patriarchs. Thus, all the clues point to the fact that the “good olive tree” represents the original nation called “the Children of Israel.” Thus, to be grafted into that “good olive tree” is to be grafted into that original nation called “the Children of Israel,” which was both when the nation was ruled by YHWH alone (with Mosheh, or “Moses,” being His mouthpiece) or by YHWH through a king (as with David, who acknowledged that YHWH was actually the true ruler).

Your words: ‘Those who believe His plan to consist of Plan A salvation of the Jews, then oops, go to plan B, salvation of the Gentiles, are wrong in their understanding. It’s Plan A, pt. 1, salvation of the Jews, pt.2 salvation to the rest of the world. To repeat myself, a “national rescue” is nowhere in sight! All of us are “saved” from eternal death and damnation, period!

Repeat yourself all you want. There IS a national rescue seen within the prophecies of the Tanakh (the OT)! Are you really so blind as to think that Ezekiel 36 could be talking about anybody other than the children of Israel?! Look, I AGREE with you that inclusion of the Goyim (Gentiles) is not an afterthought (a plan B)! However, that doesn’t mean that God won’t keep His promises, as originally promised, to the nation Israel, Israel’s (or Jacob’s) children!

Ezekiel 36:1-28
1 Also, thou son of man, prophesy unto the mountains of Israel, and say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD:
2 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because the enemy hath said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession:
3 Therefore prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that ye might be a possession unto the residue of the heathen, and ye are taken up in the lips of talkers, and are an infamy of the people:
4 Therefore, ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, to the desolate wastes, and to the cities that are forsaken, which became a prey and derision to the residue of the heathen that are round about;
5 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea, which have appointed my land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey.
6 Prophesy therefore concerning the land of Israel, and say unto the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I have spoken in my jealousy and in my fury, because ye have borne the shame of the heathen:
7 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I have lifted up mine hand, Surely the heathen that are about you, they shall bear their shame.
8 But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come.
9 For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown:
10 And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded:
11 And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
12 Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men.
13 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because they say unto you, Thou land devourest up men, and hast bereaved thy nations;
14 Therefore thou shalt devour men no more, neither bereave thy nations any more, saith the Lord GOD.
15 Neither will I cause men to hear in thee the shame of the heathen any more, neither shalt thou bear the reproach of the people any more, neither shalt thou cause thy nations to fall any more, saith the Lord GOD.
16 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:
19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.
21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
KJV


Do the research! You will find that the cities of the “mountains of Israel” are located in what is now called the “West Bank!” That is GOD’S land and He has given it to Israel for THEIR inheritance!

Your words: ‘Second highlighted part: You’re right about the origination but wrong in the context. Joel 2:12 – 27 are indeed about Judah’s and the “children of Zion’s” last opportunity for eternal salvation. It’s NEVER national “rescue” and ALWAYS “spiritual salvation”, to the members of the Jewish nation, as I will show.
However, Joel 2:28-32 are about events before the Day of the Lord.


Joel 2:28-32 – “And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

(Peter proclaims in Acts 2:16-21 that the red part was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost!)

30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.


(We know the green part is speaking of the signs that precede the Day of the Lord)

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: (“saved” in Acts 2:21)

(the blue part was the last part of Acts 2:21, thus affirming it was NOT speaking of a “national” rescue but a “spiritual” one. This is cut off just like Christ did in Luke 4, leaving the latter part of vs. 32 unsaid. At the time Peter was speaking, that road to “spiritual” salvation was JUST for the Jews. It didn’t open up to the Gentiles until after Peter had his vision concerning Cornelius. Now let’s take a look at the latter half of the verse.)

“for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

It’s my opinion, the first part of this latter half is speaking of Zech. 9:9 and that “deliverance” was the spiritual offer of salvation that Christ came to bring to the Jews first. The “remnant” here, in the context of the day of the Lord, I believe to be the 144,000+ of Revelation which are mentioned immediately after the signs of Rev. 6. The word “remnant” to me always entails a “minority”, never a majority as you believe the word “all” implies in Romans.

That’s an interesting theory, but it is forced and not accurate because it splits the thoughts apart as though they were unrelated; however, they definitely ARE related! You’re also looking at the prophecies as though they were/will be one-time EVENTS or MILESTONES in history; however, they are more than events; they are the beginning points of PERIODS or TIMESPANS! The actions involved in these prophecies are not actions that occur once and are over; they began in the past and continue through today! Thus, each new set of actions are ADDED to the last set! They are ACCUMULATIVE!

The “remnant” is simply a word that means the “remainder” or the “rest” of the people. It’s not just the “144,000+”; it’s the REST of the children of Israel!

And, I have to say it again, because STILL you aren’t listening: “Salvation” is the WRONG WORD when it comes to justification by God! “Salvation,” ESPECIALLY in prophecy, is about God’s Messiah RESCUING national Israel when He returns to earth! It may SEEM like He is talking about justification in certain verses that we use all the time, but that’s only because that is EVER as we have heard it from every preacher, evangelist, missionary, and teacher we’ve ever had in our churches! HOWEVER, there is an underlying current of information in the NT that we never get BECAUSE it is so glossed over! If you want to waste your time on fictional, “spiritual,” allegorical interpretations of Scripture, that’s up to you, but if you REALLY want a challenge, find the REAL underlying information by looking at the quoted passages from the OT! Relying on God to be sure that those Scripture passages were used in the same way that they were originally written, i.e., that they were not just “texts used out of context for pretexts,” one should look at the surrounding text of the quoted passage and transfer the point of the passage in its context to the place in the NT where that verse was quoted!

For instance, look at how Paul quoted Joel 2:32 in Romans 10:13! Look at the context of Joel 2:32! Christians have been using Romans 10:13 as a key verse in the “Romans Road of Salvation,” when it is not talking about justification at all! Granted, a “nation will be born in a day” when Yeshua` returns, but that will be because they will finally recognize Yeshua`s GOD-given authority and right to rule! It is SUBSEQUENT to the return of the King and His Kingdom! That’s what Paul meant in Romans 11 (the very next chapter, btw!):

Romans 11:25-31
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

KJV
 

ATP

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When does the word "covenant" ever apply to the Antichrist, is my question.

Dan 9:27 NIV He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."
 

Cooter

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Wing as used in the passage is a reference to a "Wing" of the Temple. There was but one. The Chamber of Hewn stones was the chamber in which the grand Sanhedrin met. It was on the North side of the temple; and it was built half inside and half outside of the main temple structure - hence a "Wing." This passage is a reference to the unjust trial of Jesus which occurred in this wing. The AoD was the unjust condemnation of Jesus. What greater Abomination could there be in all of history than this.
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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Rev 13:14-17.

It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.

Wing can also be interpreted figuratively like the King James translators did. I prefer "quickly" another attribute of a wing. This marries nicely with 'as a flood' in Daniel 11:40.
As abomination refers to idolatry rather than human injustice, Revelation marries with 2Th chapter 2 and Jesus' Words in Mt 24;15 concerning the abomination of Daniel. Jesus said it would be in the "Holy Place" and that is defined in Exodus 26:33 as being IN the Temple.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Cooter.

Cooter said:
Wing as used in the passage is a reference to a "Wing" of the Temple. There was but one. The Chamber of Hewn stones was the chamber in which the grand Sanhedrin met. It was on the North side of the temple; and it was built half inside and half outside of the main temple structure - hence a "Wing." This passage is a reference to the unjust trial of Jesus which occurred in this wing. The AoD was the unjust condemnation of Jesus. What greater Abomination could there be in all of history than this.
<Sigh.> You and Marcus are good examples of “in one ear and out the other.” The Hebrew word “k’naf” (translated as “overspreading” in the KJV and as “wing [of the temple]” in the NIV, for example) is referring to the stretched out feathers of a wing! Also, the word is the first word in a noun construct state in which the second noun is the plural word “shiquwtsiym” (translated as “abominations”). Thus it is properly translated as the "spreading-wing of abominations.” It’s talking about the COMPOUNDING of abominations! And, Marcus is right; properly, the word “shiquwtsiymDOES frequently refer to idolatry; however, what is idolatry if not substituting ANYTHING for God or God’s choice, say, for the Messiah?! By rejecting the Messiah of God, they rejected GOD’S choice for their King! And, THAT is what Matthew 23 describes!
 

Straightshot

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Response to the OP

"As a result of their rejection, the 70th week has been delayed"

Correct .... the 70th week is still pending as we speak

And it is Jesus Christ who will confirm His covenant with Israel during the same .... the other prince will come to desecrate [Daniel 9:24-27]

The Lord's discourse about the time of the end was not about 70 AD, but the coming 70th week decreed for Israel [Matthew 24; Luke 21:20-36] related prophecies [Jeremiah 30; Ezekiel 38; 39; Daniel 12; Joel 2; 3; Micah 5; Zechariah 12; 13; 14; Revelation 12:6; 12:14-17]

Many confuse the Gentile "church" of both a few early Israelites and saved Gentiles .... this replacement theology is a ruse and not true .... and Daniel 9 is all about his people, national Israel [Romans 11]