Dear Church, Here’s Why People Are REALLY Leaving You

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JPPT1974

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Praying for people to come back to Christ. As it is through our actions. Not words that get people back to Christ. Slowly but hopefully slowly.
 

heretoeternity

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The religious organizations which are referred to as "churches", have become "social clubs" and not houses of worship of God...they do not take a stand on any of the pressing social issues of the day, as these issues are in conflict with the Bible, the Holy word of God. They seem to want to pick the "safe" topics, so as not stir up controversy......why not stir the pot? The "christian" churches should quit being limp wristed and start to use a "fire and brimstone" approach to the Bible, and society in general...(thats what sells "tickets")....as Jesus said in Revelation He does not like the "lukewarm" church...but alas the "churches" today seem more concerned with not offending anyone, especially the government because they have become too comfortable with their Sec 501 tax exempt arrangements...time to break loose from that deal with satan, and started addressing real issues of the day.
 
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Doug_E_Fresh

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heretoeternity said:
The religious organizations which are referred to as "churches", have become "social clubs" and not houses of worship of God...they do not take a stand on any of the pressing social issues of the day, as these issues are in conflict with the Bible, the Holy word of God. They seem to want to pick the "safe" topics, so as not stir up controversy......why not stir the pot? The "christian" churches should quit being limp wristed and start to use a "fire and brimstone" approach to the Bible, and society in general...(thats what sells "tickets")....as Jesus said in Revelation He does not like the "lukewarm" church...but alas the "churches" today seem more concerned with not offending anyone, especially the government because they have become too comfortable with their Sec 501 tax exempt arrangements...time to break loose from that deal with satan, and started addressing real issues of the day.
This should probably be discussed in a new thread, but personally I don't think the church should be preaching on social issues from the pulpit, or telling the public what their stance is. I think that they should have a stance, and be steadfast, but telling everyone else what the stance is without being able to have conversations about why it's justified doesn't help anything. That should be a "if you care enough about it, come talk to us about it."
 
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Born_Again

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Dear Church,

Here is why I may be leaving you.... I read that my denom, or at least a variation of it, has decided to accept gay marriage..... So, when I ask my pastor on Sunday about it.... his answer will make the difference.

Doug,

If I'm understanding you correctly, I may agree.... I think I do, :)
 

Wormwood

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Doug,

Not sure I agree. I mean, I do to a point. However, if we completely ignore social issues, what does that say about the church? Are we here simply to get people into heaven without impacting and dealing with the culture of today? If we don't speak out about cultural issues, where else will they hear a biblical perspective on such issues? Certainly not from CNN or the local cinema. I agree that we should not ONLY speak about social issues and do our preaching from the newspaper. However, we should have a Bible in one hand and a newspaper in the other. In fact, I think most of Paul's letters in the NT were directly addressing social issues such as idolatry, sexual sins, divorce, Judiazing, head covering, family life, government, etc.
 

katabole

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As you all know there is the story in John's Gospel of the woman caught in adultery and brought to Jesus. Did Jesus excuse the woman's sin? No! In fact, He told her not to sin again. Instead of being an example of the "non-judgmental" Jesus that is constantly portrayed in the media these days, it is yet another story of the hypocrisy of the scribes and Pharisees. What is clear from the context is that Jesus was talking about people making personal judgments against others, when their own behavior was much more seriously compromised than the persons they were judging. However, in other preaching, Jesus made it clear that He especially had a problem with the hypocrisy of the Jewish religious leaders of His time. In addition, since Jesus had told her not to sin again, He would be certainly be accused of being "judgmental" by many people of our time.

If Jesus wanted people to not be "judgmental" or judge other people's sin, He certainly did not take His own advice. In fact, Jesus often told people how to behave and specifically told them not to sin. If Jesus really did not want people to be judgmental, why was He that way Himself?

"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." John 7:24

Notice that the verse does not tell us not to judge at all, but to judge according to righteousness. If we cannot verify the truth about an accusation, we should keep our mouths shut, which is the essence of His other famous statement on judging, Judge not less you be judged. In other words, do not judge hypocritically. However, such critiques are not personal attacks, but are usually related to a defense of the Christian faith.

People who make the claim that Christians or Christian churches are judgmental are really referring to Christians' judgment between right and wrong. However, every person (with the possible exception of those who are judged to be criminally insane) on earth, make judgments between right and wrong every day, in order to make decisions about how to live one's life. Of course, the reasons why people say that Christians are judgmental is because they disagree with the moral judgments we make because the moral judgments we make are based directly on the words of Jesus Christ and are not based on any subjective personal opinion as morality is by non-Christians.

The Bible commands people of faith (both Christians and Jews) to make moral judgments. The Old Testament tells us to warn those who practice wicked things to turn from their evil ways. Jesus asked people why they would not judge what was the right thing to do in Luke 12:57 and instructed believers to admonish those brothers who practice sin. (Matt 18:15; Luke 17:3; Rev 2:2 and Rev 2:20). Paul reprimanded the Church at Corinth for not judging sin within their assembly. In fact, the Church is directed to condemn and remove sin from among its ranks first and foremost.

Although many people say that they don't think that others should make moral judgments, they soon change their mind when somebody does something immoral against them. The constitutions of many Western democratic nations, for ex. the USA, is based upon three branches of government, one of which is assigned to judge the morality of behaviors. The judicial branch of the United States government decides the morality of the actions of its citizens and punishes those who break those moral laws. Murder, assault, rape, fraud, theft, and numerous other behaviors are judged as being immoral. The idea that "you cannot legislate morality" is clearly false, since our legislative branches of government can and do make laws against a host of behaviors that have been declared as unacceptable. In fact, in the state of California, not only are laws made against moral behaviors, but laws are made to force businesses to train people not to commit certain immoral behaviors.

Christians are often accused of being judgmental. I know that has happened to many of us. However, what most people consider to be judgmental is merely telling others what the Bible says are unacceptable moral behaviors. Christians tell others what the Bible says about behavior because we are commanded to do so, so that others may lead morally acceptable lives and be delivered from evil. I do know that is difficult when we live in a culture these days that does not understand the word repent. However, we are specifically commanded not to judge the behavior of individuals for whom we do not have absolute certainty of the truth regarding their actions. The Christian Church is to remove sin from within its own ranks first and foremost before condemning the actions of outsiders.

When the Church fails to do this; when it fails to make a stand against abortion or gay marriage for example, and as has happened in many cases already, it will lose its saltiness, it will bring in worldliness, idolatry and false teachings and the Church will itself, be under God's punishment IMHO.
 
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marksman

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Wormwood said:
Pom, church leaders are people Jesus loves, too. Don't forget that.

I'd enjoy articles like this much more if they gave any meaningful suggestions. It seems everyone has a list of reasons as to why church is so terrible and pastors are so disconnected. What I don't see are lists of practical, helpful ways churches can be more effective. I guess its easier to criticize and tear down than encourage and build up.
​I love church history and have studied it from Pentecost until now. I have read over 40 books on the subject and have an eight volume set on the church written by Philip Schaff which I have heard is one of the best tomes on the subject.

At one time I devoted two years solid in studying the life of the church. Canvassing all sorts of views on the matter I believe that the main reason for the churches demise is that the foundations are wrong. Unless you have a firm foundation built according to the plan regardless of what it is the building is not going to last.

I believe to solve a problem your starting point is the word of God. Doing that means you prevent yourself from making the word of God support your experience as opposed to making your experience support the word of God as it should.

If we use the word of God to build "His" church, not ours, we wil find that the organisational structure will have to change dramatically. First, the torn veil indicated that God had removed the barrier to a relationship with him which introduced the priesthood of all believers. Prior to the Cross, only the High Priest could go into the Holy of Holies and do business with God on behalf of the Jewish nation. Now every believer can do this. That means the clergy/laity divide is not of God. It is a man made imposition to allow control of the people in the congregation.

Second, prior to the Cross, the religious domain was lead and controlled by men who were given titles and positions. Under the New Covenant the church was led by men who were appointed from within the fellowship as Elders. That was a servant ministry without titles or position. The apostolic, prophetic, evangelistic, shepherding and teaching roles were ministries, not positions so there were no titles given, only a recognition of their anointing by God.

Third the adjudicator and administrator of the church was the Holy Spirit. He organised the gifts and gifting and what should happen when in the meeting.

In most cases, all three have been laid to rest by the church to enable man to take over those roles and the organisation of "His" church. As a result it has ceased to be "His" church and it has become our church. Jesus said he would build "His" church, not ours so we should not expect God to lead us into the way of victory as he has no say in what happens.
 
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Doug_E_Fresh

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Wormwood,

Let me elaborate a little. :)

2 kinds of people come to church: believers, and non-believers. People who believe can be held accountable to the same standard, non-believers cannot. Believers dealing with social issues need to be armed with their newspaper in one hand, and an apologetic in the other. Churches have the responsibility of being relevant and providing education for that apologetic. For non-believers, they will not understand the reasoning behind why I say something is wrong because they do start with the same foundation of right and wrong, or authority. How we interact with non-believers on social issues needs to be done through that apologetic, not through the explanation to the christian about how to come to a right way of thinking about the social issue.

Because of this, I think it's too difficult to do from a pulpit since there's no real interactive discussion, and both groups are present. I think that there are better ways to bring up social issues than to do it from there.

I hope all that makes sense, if it doesn't let me know and I'm sorry it took so long to respond. College finals are killing me softly.
 

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Angelina said:
Great read!... ^_^

Dear Church, Here’s Why People Are REALLY Leaving You
By John Pavlovitz ~ Church Leaders

You think it’s because “the culture” is so lost, so perverse, so beyond help that they are all walking away.
You believe that they’ve turned a deaf ear to the voice of God; chasing money, and sex, and material things.
You think that the gays and the Muslims and the Atheists and the pop stars have so screwed up the morality of the world that everyone is abandoning faith in droves.

But those aren’t the reasons people are leaving you.

http://www.churchleaders.com/outreach-missions/outreach-missions-articles/244545-dear-church-heres-people-really-leaving.html
A very good link.

Church leaders are not receptive to correction. They are proud, arrogant and intractable. Many are simply vacuous scoundrels who occupy space and accept a salary.
When I asked a high ranking leader of the Episcopal church about this his reply was, "why can't you understand that this is just a job?"

No one can correct them and so people leave.
I've known far too many who are too proud to accept criticism. They do not guide the flock - they milk them.

And the answer seems to be NOT to correct those who teach false doctrine or who are puffed up with pride, but to suppress those who suggest, however politely, that they have wandered from the path of spiritual guidance and scholarship. I know. I've seen that happen too.

What then is the flock to do? Who will guide?

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 

mjrhealth

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aspen said:
Hmm...I have a different theory. I think people are leaving church because Protestants/Evangelicals teach their people that church is not important/fallible/should be constantly questioned and tested against the Bible. The over emphasis on this idea has encouraged people to bypass the middleman (church) and go to the source (Bible). Church is viewed as having no purpose outside Catholicism-sorry. Stripping the altars has consequences.
The truth is Jesus is calling all men to Himself, He has being doing that for years, as for the middleman, who needs Church when you have Jesus, God and teh Holy spirit, but than again if you dont have them i suppose you would need church.
 

Axehead

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When you understand that the Church is the Body of Christ, we all need the Body of Christ. But, we don't need the religious system where Christ is not welcome. A member of the Body of Christ is not meant to dwell alone. Pray that the Lord lead you to like-minded brethren that love the Lord with all their heart, soul, mind and strength. There are many who have left the religious system but not left Christ. The full expression of Jesus Christ is through His Body. A head must have a body and vice versa. The members of the Body who have kept a pure heart and the testimony of Jesus are out there.

But, I do know how you feel and it does bring suffering to see what religion has turned Christianity into. Even Jeremiah, was desiring just a few men in the wilderness who were faithful to God.

Jer 9:1 Oh that my head were waters, and mine eyes a fountain of tears, that I might weep day and night for the slain of the daughter of my people!
Jer 9:2 Oh that I had in the wilderness a lodging place of wayfaring men; that I might leave my people, and go from them! for they be all adulterers, an assembly of treacherous men.
 

mjrhealth

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What then is the flock to do? Who will guide?
Joh 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
Joh 10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
Joh 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Joh 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
Joh 10:6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
Joh 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
Joh 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Jesus, it really is that simple.

1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

In All His Love
 

Axehead

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mjrhealth said:
Joh 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
Joh 10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
Joh 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Joh 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
Joh 10:6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
Joh 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
Joh 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Jesus, it really is that simple.

1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

In All His Love
Amen, pray for fellowship, and if you don't have any, make some (lead someone to Christ and begin to disciple them). But, in the meantime, when you don't have fellowship, throw yourself upon the Lord. Afterall, Christians in prison, only have the Lord so He is more than sufficient if you have no choice but to go it alone. Just don't compromise and bow down to the abominations of men.
 

Wormwood

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Doug,

I understand where you are coming from. I think I would just disagree that the pulpit is primarily a platform to speak to unbelievers or speak generically to believers and unbelievers. Personally, I think preaching should be exegetical. I dont know how someone can preach exegetically through the NT and not address current social issues and take a particular stand on them in one form or another. Certainly we need to allow for freedom on debatable matters and not try to tell people how they should think. Yet, many matters are quite clear in Scripture and I dont know how you preach honestly through texts like Romans 1:18ff or Matt. 5:31-32 for example, and not make a clear statement on a social issue. Personally, I am not in favor of the type of inductive preaching that throws some bible principles at people and allows them to come to their own conclusions. If the Bible affirms a position, we should do the same. And if an unbeliever is in the audience, I think they appreciate the fact that the Bible is being explained and expounded on...even if they disagree. Most people dont come to church to be coddled. They want to hear a word from God that impacts their lives. The prophets challenged their culture and I think those who proclaim the truth of God regularly often speak with a similar voice to a culture that is often rejecting what is right. Obviously a level of caution and humility needs to be exercised, but that doesnt mean we cannot be bold.
 

Doug_E_Fresh

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Wormwood,

I agree with you 100% on this:

Personally, I think preaching should be exegetical. I dont know how someone can preach exegetically through the NT and not address current social issues and take a particular stand on them in one form or another. Certainly we need to allow for freedom on debatable matters and not try to tell people how they should think. Yet, many matters are quite clear in Scripture and I dont know how you preach honestly through texts likeRomans 1:18ff or Matt. 5:31-32 for example, and not make a clear statement on a social issue. Personally, I am not in favor of the type of inductive preaching that throws some bible principles at people and allows them to come to their own conclusions. If the Bible affirms a position, we should do the same. And if an unbeliever is in the audience, I think they appreciate the fact that the Bible is being explained and expounded on...even if they disagree. Most people dont come to church to be coddled. They want to hear a word from God that impacts their lives. The prophets challenged their culture and I think those who proclaim the truth of God regularly often speak with a similar voice to a culture that is often rejecting what is right. Obviously a level of caution and humility needs to be exercised, but that doesnt mean we cannot be bold.
I would like to clarify a few points about what I'm trying to say.

Exegetical teaching just means the you're applying Biblical interpretation to your life, rather than interpreting your life into the Bible (Eisegetical). So it should always be done this way. So this is why I agree with everything you're saying.

Second point:

Certainly we need to allow for freedom on debatable matters and not try to tell people how they should think. Yet, many matters are quite clear in Scripture and I dont know how you preach honestly through texts likeRomans 1:18ff or Matt. 5:31-32 for example, and not make a clear statement on a social issue.
Because issues that are "emotionally charged" exist, and people have "muddied" the interpretation of how scripture talks about these issues (things like gay marriage with matthew vines and all that...) a pastor cannot readily expound and deal with the issue "end-to-end" in one sermon (atleast I don't think I could do it with all the questions people would have.). The issues that are plainly seen as black and white with little emotionally charged debate are easily addressed at a pulpit. But the issues that take more synthesis are not well-suited for a lecture environment because people will undoubtedly have questions about what they've heard and what other pastors have told them.
Issues like this are why:

I think it's too difficult to do from a pulpit since there's no real interactive discussion, and both groups are present. I think that there are better ways to bring up social issues than to do it from there.
You can still teach sound biblical truth, but normally churches teach in patterns that allow both unbelievers the ability to understand what is going on, and already-believers to learn new things about God. I've never heard of a pastor who thought that homiletics and how to present the material wasn't a challenge to them because you can only go to certain depths theologically before you lose people.
 

Wormwood

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Because issues that are "emotionally charged" exist, and people have "muddied" the interpretation of how scripture talks about these issues (things like gay marriage with matthew vines and all that...) a pastor cannot readily expound and deal with the issue "end-to-end" in one sermon (atleast I don't think I could do it with all the questions people would have.). The issues that are plainly seen as black and white with little emotionally charged debate are easily addressed at a pulpit. But the issues that take more synthesis are not well-suited for a lecture environment because people will undoubtedly have questions about what they've heard and what other pastors have told them.
True, but the pulpit may be a good place to start that conversation. The fact is, many Christians do not attend outside studies other than the service on Sunday morning. While we would love to have everyone in a Bible study class, most churches only have about 20-40% participation in outside studies. Unfortunately, most of the people who may need to hear about the biblical teaching on controversial cultural issues are usually the ones not attending these Bible studies. Personally, I don't think the preacher has to go into great exegetical depth on such matters. Usually, those depths only aid the already convinced. Those who are not open or are hostile to the issue are usually not that willing to study it in depth.

You can still teach sound biblical truth, but normally churches teach in patterns that allow both unbelievers the ability to understand what is going on, and already-believers to learn new things about God. I've never heard of a pastor who thought that homiletics and how to present the material wasn't a challenge to them because you can only go to certain depths theologically before you lose people.
The reason why I think these things should be addressed from the pulpit is because many "already-believers" are becoming confused on these issues and are more swayed by culture than the teachings of the Bible. They need someone to stand up and say what the Bible says on an issue in a loving manner. As I said, if we don't, then even the already-believers will start to reach the conclusions the culture is peddling. Usually our culture tries to hijack such ideas through religious guise. We need to be able to confront those issues and undermine ideas that lead people into activities that dishonor God and lead them from Christ. I think 1 John is a perfect example of a book of the Bible that is lovingly but forcefully addressing a contemporary issue about false doctrines and why it is so important that the fellowship of believers be able to discern truth from error.
 

pom2014

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Yet the churches do not address their own issues when they address from the pulpit.

The usual suspects of gays, adultery and the world's view on morality are the bread and butter.

But never have I heard them say anything about the sin within the church unless they have booted the said sinner and now are just bad mouthing them.

Never once have a heard them ever say anything remarriage while the spouse still lives, no talk of the gossip (unless it is about the minister's wife), no bringing up at all the yoking of unrighteous mammon and the church.

So the pulpit is really only for wagging a finger while their voice is filled with evangelical glee.

Hence why it is time to leave the heretics.
 
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Axehead

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I see more and more Christians, leaving the Institutional Church and meeting in homes.

Matt_18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

The "blurred edges" of Christianity are being removed, everyday. Especially, with the latest SCOTUS ruling. Churches, Church schools, Church hospitals will now have their tax exempt status tested via same sex marriage challenges. Things will become more "black and white", as to who is a Christian and who is not.

Federal Government should stay out of the marriage business and let the States handle it, but "State's rights (Federalist Papers) has been under assault for some time now as the 10 square miles of Washington, D.C., seeks to control the entire United States.

1st Amendment is over with.


Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.