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This should probably be discussed in a new thread, but personally I don't think the church should be preaching on social issues from the pulpit, or telling the public what their stance is. I think that they should have a stance, and be steadfast, but telling everyone else what the stance is without being able to have conversations about why it's justified doesn't help anything. That should be a "if you care enough about it, come talk to us about it."heretoeternity said:The religious organizations which are referred to as "churches", have become "social clubs" and not houses of worship of God...they do not take a stand on any of the pressing social issues of the day, as these issues are in conflict with the Bible, the Holy word of God. They seem to want to pick the "safe" topics, so as not stir up controversy......why not stir the pot? The "christian" churches should quit being limp wristed and start to use a "fire and brimstone" approach to the Bible, and society in general...(thats what sells "tickets")....as Jesus said in Revelation He does not like the "lukewarm" church...but alas the "churches" today seem more concerned with not offending anyone, especially the government because they have become too comfortable with their Sec 501 tax exempt arrangements...time to break loose from that deal with satan, and started addressing real issues of the day.
I love church history and have studied it from Pentecost until now. I have read over 40 books on the subject and have an eight volume set on the church written by Philip Schaff which I have heard is one of the best tomes on the subject.Wormwood said:Pom, church leaders are people Jesus loves, too. Don't forget that.
I'd enjoy articles like this much more if they gave any meaningful suggestions. It seems everyone has a list of reasons as to why church is so terrible and pastors are so disconnected. What I don't see are lists of practical, helpful ways churches can be more effective. I guess its easier to criticize and tear down than encourage and build up.
A very good link.Angelina said:Great read!... ^_^
Dear Church, Here’s Why People Are REALLY Leaving You
By John Pavlovitz ~ Church Leaders
You think it’s because “the culture” is so lost, so perverse, so beyond help that they are all walking away.
You believe that they’ve turned a deaf ear to the voice of God; chasing money, and sex, and material things.
You think that the gays and the Muslims and the Atheists and the pop stars have so screwed up the morality of the world that everyone is abandoning faith in droves.
But those aren’t the reasons people are leaving you.
http://www.churchleaders.com/outreach-missions/outreach-missions-articles/244545-dear-church-heres-people-really-leaving.html
The truth is Jesus is calling all men to Himself, He has being doing that for years, as for the middleman, who needs Church when you have Jesus, God and teh Holy spirit, but than again if you dont have them i suppose you would need church.aspen said:Hmm...I have a different theory. I think people are leaving church because Protestants/Evangelicals teach their people that church is not important/fallible/should be constantly questioned and tested against the Bible. The over emphasis on this idea has encouraged people to bypass the middleman (church) and go to the source (Bible). Church is viewed as having no purpose outside Catholicism-sorry. Stripping the altars has consequences.
Joh 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.What then is the flock to do? Who will guide?
Amen, pray for fellowship, and if you don't have any, make some (lead someone to Christ and begin to disciple them). But, in the meantime, when you don't have fellowship, throw yourself upon the Lord. Afterall, Christians in prison, only have the Lord so He is more than sufficient if you have no choice but to go it alone. Just don't compromise and bow down to the abominations of men.mjrhealth said:Joh 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
Joh 10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
Joh 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Joh 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
Joh 10:6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
Joh 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
Joh 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
Jesus, it really is that simple.
1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
In All His Love
I would like to clarify a few points about what I'm trying to say.Personally, I think preaching should be exegetical. I dont know how someone can preach exegetically through the NT and not address current social issues and take a particular stand on them in one form or another. Certainly we need to allow for freedom on debatable matters and not try to tell people how they should think. Yet, many matters are quite clear in Scripture and I dont know how you preach honestly through texts likeRomans 1:18ff or Matt. 5:31-32 for example, and not make a clear statement on a social issue. Personally, I am not in favor of the type of inductive preaching that throws some bible principles at people and allows them to come to their own conclusions. If the Bible affirms a position, we should do the same. And if an unbeliever is in the audience, I think they appreciate the fact that the Bible is being explained and expounded on...even if they disagree. Most people dont come to church to be coddled. They want to hear a word from God that impacts their lives. The prophets challenged their culture and I think those who proclaim the truth of God regularly often speak with a similar voice to a culture that is often rejecting what is right. Obviously a level of caution and humility needs to be exercised, but that doesnt mean we cannot be bold.
Because issues that are "emotionally charged" exist, and people have "muddied" the interpretation of how scripture talks about these issues (things like gay marriage with matthew vines and all that...) a pastor cannot readily expound and deal with the issue "end-to-end" in one sermon (atleast I don't think I could do it with all the questions people would have.). The issues that are plainly seen as black and white with little emotionally charged debate are easily addressed at a pulpit. But the issues that take more synthesis are not well-suited for a lecture environment because people will undoubtedly have questions about what they've heard and what other pastors have told them.Certainly we need to allow for freedom on debatable matters and not try to tell people how they should think. Yet, many matters are quite clear in Scripture and I dont know how you preach honestly through texts likeRomans 1:18ff or Matt. 5:31-32 for example, and not make a clear statement on a social issue.
You can still teach sound biblical truth, but normally churches teach in patterns that allow both unbelievers the ability to understand what is going on, and already-believers to learn new things about God. I've never heard of a pastor who thought that homiletics and how to present the material wasn't a challenge to them because you can only go to certain depths theologically before you lose people.I think it's too difficult to do from a pulpit since there's no real interactive discussion, and both groups are present. I think that there are better ways to bring up social issues than to do it from there.
True, but the pulpit may be a good place to start that conversation. The fact is, many Christians do not attend outside studies other than the service on Sunday morning. While we would love to have everyone in a Bible study class, most churches only have about 20-40% participation in outside studies. Unfortunately, most of the people who may need to hear about the biblical teaching on controversial cultural issues are usually the ones not attending these Bible studies. Personally, I don't think the preacher has to go into great exegetical depth on such matters. Usually, those depths only aid the already convinced. Those who are not open or are hostile to the issue are usually not that willing to study it in depth.Because issues that are "emotionally charged" exist, and people have "muddied" the interpretation of how scripture talks about these issues (things like gay marriage with matthew vines and all that...) a pastor cannot readily expound and deal with the issue "end-to-end" in one sermon (atleast I don't think I could do it with all the questions people would have.). The issues that are plainly seen as black and white with little emotionally charged debate are easily addressed at a pulpit. But the issues that take more synthesis are not well-suited for a lecture environment because people will undoubtedly have questions about what they've heard and what other pastors have told them.
The reason why I think these things should be addressed from the pulpit is because many "already-believers" are becoming confused on these issues and are more swayed by culture than the teachings of the Bible. They need someone to stand up and say what the Bible says on an issue in a loving manner. As I said, if we don't, then even the already-believers will start to reach the conclusions the culture is peddling. Usually our culture tries to hijack such ideas through religious guise. We need to be able to confront those issues and undermine ideas that lead people into activities that dishonor God and lead them from Christ. I think 1 John is a perfect example of a book of the Bible that is lovingly but forcefully addressing a contemporary issue about false doctrines and why it is so important that the fellowship of believers be able to discern truth from error.You can still teach sound biblical truth, but normally churches teach in patterns that allow both unbelievers the ability to understand what is going on, and already-believers to learn new things about God. I've never heard of a pastor who thought that homiletics and how to present the material wasn't a challenge to them because you can only go to certain depths theologically before you lose people.