Dear Church, Here’s Why People Are REALLY Leaving You

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mjrhealth

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How about in Christ at church. Church is full of people who actually want to hear of and learn about Christ. It is the perfect mission field.
That is an assumptiom, sometimes we need to ask, would you, Jesus is with everyone, even those who have turned their backs on Him, but He has no reason to be a part of mens religion. I once had a friend who told me of a number of visions she Had where Jesus would start to walk into teh church than leave, yet she still went, why well she reckoned it was teh only place she could worship, and went wether He was there or not. In he case it was disobedience. There is only one head of the church, His church and that is Christ and we should all be under Him, no one else.
 

Lady Daffodil

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There is no doubt in my mind that there are churches like the ones described in the article. I am thankful that the church I attend (in my opinion, anyway) isn't guilty of any of these things. Our pastor doesn't use "churchy" language, or put himself above his congregation; instead of "preaching at us" he talks to us. He's a very humble person and admits he isn't perfect. We accept all people no matter what they've done in the past or how they dress. All are welcome. We support a mission in Haiti and every year people in the church go over to help our missionary out. I'm not criticizing that the person said in the article, I'm just saying that there are churches out there that do what a church is supposed to do.
 

Wormwood

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Many of these comments are so sad. Nothing but Western individualism at play and the notion that its all about me and God and despising "organized" religion and church staff. Wake up folks. The Church is not a government social program. Most of those "paid staff" spend dozens of hours each week teaching the Bible, counseling those who struggle, and visiting the sick. But, by all means, lets just get rid of all that and turn our churches into food pantries. That will bring people to Christ....smh.
 

Barrd

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Part of the problem, imho, is that pastors are not free to preach what they believe...they are being paid to preach church doctrine. Thus, if that denomination believes (for instance) in "Paradise", as in the rich man and Lazarus, from the parable Jesus tells in Luke 19:16-31, then the paid pastor, whether he believes it or not, will preach about "Paradise" and "Abraham's bosom".

Thus, you have Catholics preaching about the perpetual virginity of Mary, you have charismatics knocking people over with a touch, you have Mormons preaching that god used to be a man on another planet and you can be a god yourself one day...you have all kinds of people preaching what their congregations are paying them to preach...whether they believe it or not.

It's called "pouring oil on itching ears"...and it pays the bills. People come to hear what they want to hear, and go away feeling good about themselves...until one day they wake up and realize what a huge sack of bantha poo doo it all truly is.

(Sorry...my gang has resurrected their old Star Wars collection...)

They want a real, intimate connection with the Lord...and they are not finding it in the church.
So, they walk away from it.
 

Wormwood

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Huh? No, most pastors preach what they believe, and they happen to teach in a particular denomination because they believe the core beliefs of that particular group. Its not like there is some auction for pastors somewhere and they just blindly show up to churches and decide to preach a particular doctrine in order to receive a paycheck. Usually, they grow up in a denomination or catholic setting, decide to go to a school that teaches those beliefs because that is their background...and when they graduate, they go and teach at one of those churches. Every once and a while, a person will go to a school, find out they dont believe the core teachings of that group and then go to a different school and get connected with a place where they can teach in accordance to their own beliefs.

Yes, some leave church because they are unfulfilled (certainly there are churches that are not teaching the Scriptures). However, many leave the church because THEY are the ones with itching ears and they dont want someone telling them things they dont want to hear. We live in an age of people who want to be their own priest, prophet, pastor and head elder. They want no authority over them because that prohibits them from the complete and total autonomy to do whatever they want whenever they want. We live in an age that despises authority and claims the individuals own stomach as the chief determining force behind all personal, moral and religious decision-making.
 

Barrd

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Wormwood said:
Huh? No, most pastors preach what they believe, and they happen to teach in a particular denomination because they believe the core beliefs of that particular group. Its not like there is some auction for pastors somewhere and they just blindly show up to churches and decide to preach a particular doctrine in order to receive a paycheck. Usually, they grow up in a denomination or catholic setting, decide to go to a school that teaches those beliefs because that is their background...and when they graduate, they go and teach at one of those churches. Every once and a while, a person will go to a school, find out they dont believe the core teachings of that group and then go to a different school and get connected with a place where they can teach in accordance to their own beliefs.

Yes, some leave church because they are unfulfilled (certainly there are churches that are not teaching the Scriptures). However, many leave the church because THEY are the ones with itching ears and they dont want someone telling them things they dont want to hear. We live in an age of people who want to be their own priest, prophet, pastor and head elder. They want no authority over them because that prohibits them from the complete and total autonomy to do whatever they want whenever they want. We live in an age that despises authority and claims the individuals own stomach as the chief determining force behind all personal, moral and religious decision-making.
Yeah, that's what I used to think, too.
Problem is, I've actually talked to a few who have admitted exactly what I said in my post...they are preaching the party line, because it pays the mortgage and helps put the kids through school...

Btw, I actually am one of the leaders of a small house church...in a way, you could say that I am my own priest, prophet, pastor, and head elder....well, me and a group of about eight others, not counting our kids, who are also allowed to preach.
We claim the Bible as the chief determining force behind all personal, moral, and religious decision making.
 

OzSpen

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Wormwood said:
Many of these comments are so sad. Nothing but Western individualism at play and the notion that its all about me and God and despising "organized" religion and church staff. Wake up folks. The Church is not a government social program. Most of those "paid staff" spend dozens of hours each week teaching the Bible, counseling those who struggle, and visiting the sick. But, by all means, lets just get rid of all that and turn our churches into food pantries. That will bring people to Christ....smh.
Wormwood,

I think you are way too harsh in your assessment of what people have written in this thread. Take a read of Matt 25:31-46 (ESV).

Oz
 

Wormwood

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Oz,

I don't think I am being harsh. Most of the critiques are on "churches" and not Christians. People want to blame pastors and "organized" religion. Personally, I think the rejection of "organized" religion is motivated by our cultures ravenous desire for individual autonomy. Yet, we see in the NT a call for submission to others, the appointment of elders, and "organized" times of teaching and worship. Now, I am not discounting the fact that there are bad churches and bad pastors. However, I am just tired of hearing people beat up the church as if it's all the fault of church leaders. From my experience, most people leave church because they want it to be a club where the "paid staff" wait on them hand and foot and if they don't feel like they are being coddled then they take their membership elsewhere or just leave church altogether (usually to make room for boating, camping, and sports activities for the family). Certainly this is not always the case, but it is the case quite often. Moreover, Oz, as you know seminary and biblical education is often a very good thing. Yet there is no end to people (especially on this board) who do nothing but mock and malign those who dedicate years of their lives to prayer and the study of Scripture in formal school settings. They call them Pharisees and other sorts of nasty names as if the two are even comparable. I read blog after blog on the Internet that chides pastors and blames all problems in church decline on them. I just think Christians need to start looking in the mirror. Christians need to quit blaming the guys who have dedicated their lives to studying and teaching the Bible and take some responsibility in the ways they have allowed the hedonism and idolatry of individualism to usurp their thinking about God and His Church. The purpose of the Church is not to make people feel good or win their approval. It is to teach people to die to themselves and sacrificially serve others so they can be built up in the faith. It seems to me that pastors are some of the few people who actually do this and most are getting used up and burnt out by a culture of people who demand to be pleased and coddled lest they cast their vote to use their time camping because "the church isn't meeting my needs." Last I checked, that wasn't the purpose of the Church. Okay...rant over :)
 

Barrd

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Wormwood said:
Oz,

I don't think I am being harsh. Most of the critiques are on "churches" and not Christians. People want to blame pastors and "organized" religion. Personally, I think the rejection of "organized" religion is motivated by our cultures ravenous desire for individual autonomy. Yet, we see in the NT a call for submission to others, the appointment of elders, and "organized" times of teaching and worship. Now, I am not discounting the fact that there are bad churches and bad pastors. However, I am just tired of hearing people beat up the church as if it's all the fault of church leaders. From my experience, most people leave church because they want it to be a club where the "paid staff" wait on them hand and foot and if they don't feel like they are being coddled then they take their membership elsewhere or just leave church altogether (usually to make room for boating, camping, and sports activities for the family). Certainly this is not always the case, but it is the case quite often. Moreover, Oz, as you know seminary and biblical education is often a very good thing. Yet there is no end to people (especially on this board) who do nothing but mock and malign those who dedicate years of their lives to prayer and the study of Scripture in formal school settings. They call them Pharisees and other sorts of nasty names as if the two are even comparable. I read blog after blog on the Internet that chides pastors and blames all problems in church decline on them. I just think Christians need to start looking in the mirror. Christians need to quit blaming the guys who have dedicated their lives to studying and teaching the Bible and take some responsibility in the ways they have allowed the hedonism and idolatry of individualism to usurp their thinking about God and His Church. The purpose of the Church is not to make people feel good or win their approval. It is to teach people to die to themselves and sacrificially serve others so they can be built up in the faith. It seems to me that pastors are some of the few people who actually do this and most are getting used up and burnt out by a culture of people who demand to be pleased and coddled lest they cast their vote to use their time camping because "the church isn't meeting my needs." Last I checked, that wasn't the purpose of the Church. Okay...rant over :)
What sparked my own move away from the church was when the pastor decided that he would close the church because Christmas fell on a Sunday that year. Now, I was one of a group of ladies who had planned to put on a huge Christmas dinner and invite our poor and our homeless in this area to come. We had a group that planned to talk to these folks about programs available in our community to help them. We even had a tree with gifts for the kids.
Fortunately, we were able to move our Christmas to our Civic Center.

In my humble opinion, the church should be more interactive. People need to feel as if they are a part of something. Heaven knows, there is plenty of work to be done. The pastor just needs to learn how to delegate. Call together a group whose responsibility it is to teach Bible classes at the jail, or visit the old folks' home, or the hospital, or perhaps bring the Lord's Supper to someone who, for whatever reason, cannot come to church, like my friend David, who was paralyzed from the waist down, and who died of staff infection that he got at the hospital.

One church in my area (and I wish I'd thought of it!) got a bunch of teen age boys together with a couple of lawn mowers, and they went through town, mowing lawns for people who, for whatever reason, could not do it themselves. As a widow whose sons were still in grade school, I got my lawn mowed by these wonderful kids. Afterwards, the church treated the boys to ice cream. Imagine coming home and finding your lawn neatly mowed!

It's all well and good to talk about how we ought to have more appreciation for the learned men who share the gospel with us every Sunday morning...and you are right, Wormwood.

But it works both ways. Our learned men need to have more appreciation for the simple folks who offer their hands and their hearts to the church. Give those idle hands something to do, and you will fill those empty hearts...
 

OzSpen

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Wormwood said:
Oz,

I don't think I am being harsh. Most of the critiques are on "churches" and not Christians. People want to blame pastors and "organized" religion. Personally, I think the rejection of "organized" religion is motivated by our cultures ravenous desire for individual autonomy. Yet, we see in the NT a call for submission to others, the appointment of elders, and "organized" times of teaching and worship. Now, I am not discounting the fact that there are bad churches and bad pastors. However, I am just tired of hearing people beat up the church as if it's all the fault of church leaders. From my experience, most people leave church because they want it to be a club where the "paid staff" wait on them hand and foot and if they don't feel like they are being coddled then they take their membership elsewhere or just leave church altogether (usually to make room for boating, camping, and sports activities for the family). Certainly this is not always the case, but it is the case quite often. Moreover, Oz, as you know seminary and biblical education is often a very good thing. Yet there is no end to people (especially on this board) who do nothing but mock and malign those who dedicate years of their lives to prayer and the study of Scripture in formal school settings. They call them Pharisees and other sorts of nasty names as if the two are even comparable. I read blog after blog on the Internet that chides pastors and blames all problems in church decline on them. I just think Christians need to start looking in the mirror. Christians need to quit blaming the guys who have dedicated their lives to studying and teaching the Bible and take some responsibility in the ways they have allowed the hedonism and idolatry of individualism to usurp their thinking about God and His Church. The purpose of the Church is not to make people feel good or win their approval. It is to teach people to die to themselves and sacrificially serve others so they can be built up in the faith. It seems to me that pastors are some of the few people who actually do this and most are getting used up and burnt out by a culture of people who demand to be pleased and coddled lest they cast their vote to use their time camping because "the church isn't meeting my needs." Last I checked, that wasn't the purpose of the Church. Okay...rant over :)
Wormwood,

Yes it was somewhat of a rant. And you didn't even bother to address what I wrote. In case you forgot, here it is again:
I think you are way too harsh in your assessment of what people have written in this thread. Take a read of Matt 25:31-46 (ESV).

The Barrd's comment in #149 is much closer to the mark with its practical Christianity.

Oz
 

Wormwood

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Oz,

I didnt address the verse because I dont really know what you are driving at. Yes, Jesus will separate the sheep from goats and we cannot always tell which are which. Does this give "Christians" a right to speak ill of those who are leaders in their local churches or condemn local gatherings of believers because things do not always go their way? I am not criticizing Bard. I understand she felt compelled for various reasons to leave her local church and felt they were not doing enough. Okay. But at what point do we stop pointing the finger at the local pastors and start looking at ourselves in the mirror for the reason Christianity is failing to reach the next generation in our age?

The problem is that many in our culture think "church" is what takes place on Sunday. This is utter nonsense. Yes, church needs to be interactive...and most churches have ample opportunity to get active (people working with youth, preaching, teaching, Sunday school classes, women's groups, men's groups, worship groups, children's programs, senior's groups, singles groups, and on and on and on). Last I checked, the local pastor generally does not run all these classes or programs. At the church I attend, we are constantly struggling to get people to step up to teach a Sunday school class, volunteer for nursery rotation or visit shut-ins. Most people want to attend or make use of these programs, but do not want to invest themselves in them. These are often the same ones that are quick to critique when that program isnt being run the way they expect it to. Moreover, these events/programs are just there to build believers up so they can go about being the "church" in their workplace and community the other 5-6 days of the week. Sundays and Wednesdays are not "the church" so just because there isnt time for all 100-1,000 people to stand up and speak their mind in the local morning sermon/singing time is not preventing people from being "involved" or "active."

We live in an age of arrogant entitlement where people want everything to go exactly as they expect it. They demand service and grace from their leaders, but aren't so eager to give it when those leaders make a mistake or do something in a way that is not how others think it should be done. So many "Christian" today spend a great amount of time criticizing and maligning their church and governmental leaders, but little to no time praying for them. Of all those complaining about such leaders, my guess is that almost none of them spend any time actually wrestling in prayer on behalf of that individual. It is as though the moment someone gets the title priest, pastor or preacher, the Christian rules of grace, love and forgiveness no longer apply.

In sum, yes, I know Jesus is going to separate the wheat from the chaff. I just think that much of the outrage we hear from people who are leaving and spurning the local church is not the righteous indignation that it is peddled as. Rather, it is often little more than arrogance, selfishness and a calloused heart that refuses to give grace and forgiveness. The church is the bride of Christ. We should love her, serve her and DEFEND her in a day and age when the world is constantly attacking her. Why join the ranks of the ungodly? No, not all who attend church are Christian. Sadly enough, not all pastors are truly Christian. This should cause us tears and heartache as we determine to get involved even more to help and pray for the local churches so they can be a light in our communities rather than deride them along with a world that is always searching for a reason to dismiss Jesus Christ.

Did you know that the average pastor serves at the local church for 3 or less years and then leaves ministry, never to return again? Think about that! Someone just spent half a decade preparing to be a church leader and with great zeal and excitement they jump into the local church to teach, guide and help the church reach the community. Within three years they have quit and determine never to lead in a church again. What a sad commentary! And it usually all boils down to a bunch of adults acting like 5 year olds and complaining and leaving over dates, times, music, ministries, and how people ought to do things the way they demand to have it done. I have a feeling many with these divisive, critical and unforgiving attitude (both in and outside of the local church) will be among those "goats" in your reference. Thus, the problem is not the pastor or the structure. The problem is people. Just as it was in Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Laodicea, etc. We need to stop looking for someone to pin all the problems on and start looking to be a people who determine to be a part of the solution.
 
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OzSpen

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Wormwood said:
Oz,

I didnt address the verse because I dont really know what you are driving at. Yes, Jesus will separate the sheep from goats and we cannot always tell which are which....
Wormwood,

Take a read of what you wrote in #143:
Many of these comments are so sad. Nothing but Western individualism at play and the notion that its all about me and God and despising "organized" religion and church staff. Wake up folks. The Church is not a government social program. Most of those "paid staff" spend dozens of hours each week teaching the Bible, counseling those who struggle, and visiting the sick. But, by all means, lets just get rid of all that and turn our churches into food pantries. That will bring people to Christ....smh (emphasis added by Oz).
You don't want the church to be doing what the Govt does in its social program or by turning churches into food pantries. I said you were way too harsh in this kind of judgment because of exactly what Jesus said in Matt 25:31-46 (ESV). Look at Matt 25:34-40 (ESV) especially:
34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
Judgment of Christian believers will include what they did for those needing clothes, food, who were sick and in prison. This message flies in the face of what you said about social programs and food pantries. It's not an either/or. The evangelical Christian church not only proclaims the Gospel, which it must do, but also is engaged in ministry in these kinds of practical ways to the disadvantaged. I didn't invent this theology. It is stated clearly here in Matt 25 by Jesus himself.

As for your statement, 'Jesus will separate the sheep from goats and we cannot always tell which are which', we know that Jesus had a different view: 'By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?' (Matt 7:16 NIV). We most assuredly will be able to know which are which, sheep from the goats. In context Jesus is talking about how to recognise false prophets.

James 2:18 (ESV) extends this to all who have Christian faith: 'But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works'. And James gave examples of what these good works entailed:
14 What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone? 15 Suppose you see a brother or sister who has no food or clothing, 16 and you say, “Good-bye and have a good day; stay warm and eat well”—but then you don’t give that person any food or clothing. What good does that do?
17 So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless (James 2:14-17 NLT).
That's why I considered your assessment against 'social' good works and 'food pantries' was way too harsh when compared with the biblical requirement.

Oz
 
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OzSpen

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Wormwood,

Did you know that the average pastor serves at the local church for 3 or less years and then leaves ministry, never to return again? Think about that! Someone just spent half a decade preparing to be a church leader and with great zeal and excitement they jump into the local church to teach, guide and help the church reach the community. Within three years they have quit and determine never to lead in a church again.
It doesn't seem to occur to churches and those training pastors that the pastoral role that has been invented for today does not resemble what is in Scripture for the pastor-teacher (Eph 4:11-16).

Oz
 

Barrd

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OzSpen said:
Wormwood,

Yes it was somewhat of a rant. And you didn't even bother to address what I wrote. In case you forgot, here it is again:
I think you are way too harsh in your assessment of what people have written in this thread. Take a read of Matt 25:31-46 (ESV).

The Barrd's comment in #149 is much closer to the mark with its practical Christianity.

Oz
Why, thank you, Oz.
 

Wormwood

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I see what you are trying to say, Oz. I think you misunderstood me. I was responding a bit tongue-in-cheek to a previous comment that implied that churches would be better of just firing all the staff and feeding the hungry. I am not against caring for the poor. My point is, there are lots of government programs that do this, but that is not what advances the gospel. Preaching, teaching and discipleship is what advances the gospel and both paid and volunteer church leaders are key elements in this education and training of men and women in the faith. By all means, lets feed the poor. But if no one is there to evangelize, teach or build up those people in the faith, what good is the free meal? People draw well-fare checks when times are tough, and none of the people are coming to know Jesus though the provision of money or food stamps. That is not the primary role of the church. Jesus did not tell us to go and make soup kitchens of all buildings... Again, not against care for the poor. It's a needed thing close to the heart of God and something all Christians should care about. However, the absurd comments about getting rid of pastors and turning churches into soup kitchens is utter nonsense and just displays the kind of garbage supposed Christians throw at church leaders that implies that they are eating up funds and preventing the poor from being fed with their lavish pay checks. Utter nonsense. You can stop the witch hunt now :)

Oz, I find your comments to be insulting and ridiculous. We don't live in the first century and the Bible provides no exact handbook of how everything should function in the local church (hence all the denominational debates on ecclesiology). Let's not pretend that current local churches or their pastors are in opposition to the Scriptures on how leadership and church services should function. Again, really get tired of all the accusations that local churches are actually the enemy that is preventing the poor from being fed or has structured its leadership and services in a way as to prevent God's will and gifts from functioning. There are a lot of godly churches out there and godly pastors. I can't believe how quick Christians are to slander and attack their own brothers and sisters who day and night serve, teach, encourage, visit and counsel the hurting and struggling. The local church is not your enemy, Christians. Our job is to love, encourage, and build up the church...not to judge and condemn it. Newsflash, the local church and pastors are not perfect. But guess what, neither are you. Let's give them the same grace we desire God to give each of us. There are a lot of churches and pastors out there baptizing people continually, feeding the poor, doing outreach to communities, visiting the sick and elderly, doing outreach to 3rd world countries, and training believers to be bold and effective witnesses that are full of faith in their community. Why would we attack such a thing? Most pastors have "salaries" that place them below the poverty line. They don't do it for money, and yet they are insulted by other believers because they are paid and made to feel like they are preventing the poor and hurting from being cared for by their paycheck. Give me a break. A dear friend of mine is a pastor. He works tirelessly every day to teach, preach, and minister to the hurting in his community. He is organizing believers to do outreach and evangelism in their community. They do monthly "big serve""" events to care for the poor in their community. He cares for the mentally ill and councils the suicidal. He has six children and a wife and they live in a meager1,200 square foot, 3 bedroom house. His whopping pay qualifies his kids for Medicaid. Meanwhile, Christian doctors, lawyers, bankers, CEO's etc make 100x more than him and are off taking cruises, sitting on beaches. But, by all means, let's head hunt the local pastors and churches. We should be ashamed of ourselves. This is not the spirit of Christ that inspires such devouring of other sheep, especially leaders who love the Lord and give themselves to teaching and training others to give their lives to serving Jesus.
 

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Wormwood said:
I see what you are trying to say, Oz. I think you misunderstood me. I was responding a bit tongue-in-cheek to a previous comment that implied that churches would be better of just firing all the staff and feeding the hungry. I am not against caring for the poor. My point is, there are lots of government programs that do this, but that is not what advances the gospel. Preaching, teaching and discipleship is what advances the gospel and both paid and volunteer church leaders are key elements in this education and training of men and women in the faith. By all means, lets feed the poor. But if no one is there to evangelize, teach or build up those people in the faith, what good is the free meal? People draw well-fare checks when times are tough, and none of the people are coming to know Jesus though the provision of money or food stamps. That is not the primary role of the church. Jesus did not tell us to go and make soup kitchens of all buildings... Again, not against care for the poor. It's a needed thing close to the heart of God and something all Christians should care about. However, the absurd comments about getting rid of pastors and turning churches into soup kitchens is utter nonsense and just displays the kind of garbage supposed Christians throw at church leaders that implies that they are eating up funds and preventing the poor from being fed with their lavish pay checks. Utter nonsense. You can stop the witch hunt now :)

Oz, I find your comments to be insulting and ridiculous. We don't live in the first century and the Bible provides no exact handbook of how everything should function in the local church (hence all the denominational debates on ecclesiology). Let's not pretend that current local churches or their pastors are in opposition to the Scriptures on how leadership and church services should function. Again, really get tired of all the accusations that local churches are actually the enemy that is preventing the poor from being fed or has structured its leadership and services in a way as to prevent God's will and gifts from functioning. There are a lot of godly churches out there and godly pastors. I can't believe how quick Christians are to slander and attack their own brothers and sisters who day and night serve, teach, encourage, visit and counsel the hurting and struggling. The local church is not your enemy, Christians. Our job is to love, encourage, and build up the church...not to judge and condemn it. Newsflash, the local church and pastors are not perfect. But guess what, neither are you. Let's give them the same grace we desire God to give each of us. There are a lot of churches and pastors out there baptizing people continually, feeding the poor, doing outreach to communities, visiting the sick and elderly, doing outreach to 3rd world countries, and training believers to be bold and effective witnesses that are full of faith in their community. Why would we attack such a thing? Most pastors have "salaries" that place them below the poverty line. They don't do it for money, and yet they are insulted by other believers because they are paid and made to feel like they are preventing the poor and hurting from being cared for by their paycheck. Give me a break. A dear friend of mine is a pastor. He works tirelessly every day to teach, preach, and minister to the hurting in his community. He is organizing believers to do outreach and evangelism in their community. They do monthly "big serve""" events to care for the poor in their community. He cares for the mentally ill and councils the suicidal. He has six children and a wife and they live in a meager1,200 square foot, 3 bedroom house. His whopping pay qualifies his kids for Medicaid. Meanwhile, Christian doctors, lawyers, bankers, CEO's etc make 100x more than him and are off taking cruises, sitting on beaches. But, by all means, let's head hunt the local pastors and churches. We should be ashamed of ourselves. This is not the spirit of Christ that inspires such devouring of other sheep, especially leaders who love the Lord and give themselves to teaching and training others to give their lives to serving Jesus.
Wormwood,

Regarding the content of your first paragraph. You are obviously writing as a person from the first world where there are lots of programs for the poor - provided by government. Try that perspective in Myanmar, the Philippines, India, the Central African Republic, Somalia or Peru. However, the passage I mentioned from Matt 25:31-46 demonstrates that this IS the role of the church. Of course the church MUST preach and teach the Gospel, but genuine faith without good words is useless and unfruitful (James 2).

What was insulting and ridiculous about my comments in this post? You stated: 'I can't believe how quick Christians are to slander and attack their own brothers and sisters who day and night serve, teach, encourage, visit and counsel the hurting and struggling'. I did NOT engage in slandering anyone. Don't you think your response to me is way over the top? That is an unfair judgment on what I wrote.

You claimed, 'Why would we attack such a thing?' I didn't. I simply spoke of a job description for pastor-teachers that I don't find in Scripture. Your hyperbole of a response is an unreasonable retort.

May you have a good day after your totally unnecessary attack on me.

Oz
 

mjrhealth

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Why are people leaving church,is not that hard to answer. They want Jesus and all they get is church. A few years a go I had some JWs come to my house, last time they visited. They thanked me for all the times I invited them in, and said not many let them in. So i told them, all you have to offer them is your religion, go and find Christ.. when you can offer them Christ they will listen. Church is no different. Sad thing is as my dad and i discussed this weekend, is that when they do come out, they are not prepared, because the "church" is failing to equip them with a walk with Jesus. It is as Jesus said.

Mat_23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

or

Joh 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
Joh 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

There is only one way in, and church cant get you in there.
 

Beloved212

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Lots of opinions to this topic, thank you. The article was very interesting. Not sure how to go with this one.
 

Dcopymope

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I'm pretty certain the decline of the church is the main reason why I'm having a hard time finding anybody that actually knows how to pray, for things such as healing sickness, getting rid of demons, and corporate prayer for the body of Christ as a whole, assuming that even still exists. Hell this probably is the reason why most Christians will barely even read a chapter in the Bible for themselves. A lot of them can't even tell you who Abraham was. While the decline of the faith can be considered a good thing as its one thing that ushers in the end times, its not good for the "body of Christ" (don't think it exists).
 

OzSpen

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Dcopymope said:
I'm pretty certain the decline of the church is the main reason why I'm having a hard time finding anybody that actually knows how to pray, for things such as healing sickness, getting rid of demons, and corporate prayer for the body of Christ as a whole, assuming that even still exists. Hell this probably is the reason why most Christians will barely even read a chapter in the Bible for themselves. A lot of them can't even tell you who Abraham was. While the decline of the faith can be considered a good thing as its one thing that ushers in the end times, its not good for the "body of Christ" (don't think it exists).
Dcopymope,

I'm somewhat confused by some of your emphases here:
  1. Do you attend a church that believes in supernatural ministry through prayer? I'm thinking of your comment about not finding people who can pray for healing and casting out demons.
  2. Does your church not have a corporate prayer meeting for anyone to attend?
  3. How do you know people can't read a chapter in the Bible for themselves? Are they telling you this?
  4. Have you tried asking them about Abraham and this has led you to this conclusion about their ignorance of Abraham?
  5. Are you really questioning whether 'the body of Christ' exists on earth today? How do you deal with this Scripture? 'Now I say to you that you are Peter (which means 'rock'), and upon this rock I will build my church, and all the powers of hell will not conquer it' (Matt 16:18 NLT).
You seem to be having a negative experience with the church. Do you mind sharing where in the world you live and with which church you are associated so that I can gain a better grasp on what is happening to the church in your region?

Blessings,
Oz