Soul sleep

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ATP

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Born_Again said:
Yes, lets get back to the OP. But before we do....

Dispensationalism is a theological system that recognizes these ages ordained by God to order the affairs of the world. Dispensationalism has two primary distinctives: 1) a consistently literal interpretation of Scripture, especially Bible prophecy and 2) a distinction between Israel and the church in God's program.
I don't understand.
 

Phoneman777

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Born_Again said:
HAHAHA!! I didn't get it either. But I guess that's the definition.
Here's my definition of Dispensationalism: "After the Protestant Reformation began to lose steam, Protestants began to embrace the ideas of Jesuit Futurism that they had previously rejected for over 300 years after Jesuit Futurism was first sent out into the world in the time of Luther. John Nelson Darby became seduced with Jesuit Futurism and developed the unBiblical doctrine of Dispensationalism to explain why up is down and black is white with regard to Bible prophecy."
 

OzSpen

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Phoneman777 said:
Here's my definition of Dispensationalism: "After the Protestant Reformation began to lose steam, Protestants began to embrace the ideas of Jesuit Futurism that they had previously rejected for over 300 years after Jesuit Futurism was first sent out into the world in the time of Luther. John Nelson Darby became seduced with Jesuit Futurism and developed the unBiblical doctrine of Dispensationalism to explain why up is down and black is white with regard to Bible prophecy."
With respect, that is a distorted view of dispensationalism that is infused with incorrect Jesuit understanding.

I am not a dispensationalist, but Charles C Ryrie is a dispensationalist. Let's look to his understanding of dispensationalism.Ryrie says this about the scriptural basis for dispensationalism:
“The various forms of the word dispensation appear in the New Testament twenty times. The verb oikonomeō is used once in Luke 16:2 where it is translated ‘to be a steward.’ The noun oikonomos appears ten times (Luke 12:42; 16:1, 3, 8; Romans 16:23; 1 Corinthians 4:1, 2; Galatians 4:2; Titus 1:7; 1 Peter 4:10) and is usually translated ‘steward’ or ‘manager’ (but ‘treasure’ in Romans 16:23). The noun oikonomia is used nine times (Luke 16:2, 3, 4; 1 Corinthians 9:17; Ephesians 1:10; 3:2, 9; Colossians 1:25; 1 Timothy 1:4). In these instances it is translated ‘stewardship,’ ‘dispensation,’ ‘administration,’ ‘job,’ ‘commission.’ ”9

As Ryrie points out, there are three major dispensations in the Scriptures. “At least three dispensations (as commonly understood in dispensational teaching) are mentioned by Paul. In Ephesians 1:10 he writes of ‘an administration [dispensation, KJV] suitable to the fullness of the times,’ which is a future period here. In Ephesians 3:2, he designates the ‘stewardship [dispensation, KJV] of God’s grace,’ which was the emphasis of the content of his preaching, at that time. In Colossians 1:25-26 it is implied that another dispensation precedes the present one in which the mystery of Christ in the believer is revealed. It is important to notice that … there can be no question that the Bible uses the word dispensation exactly the same way as the dispensationalist does.”10
The fact that the Bible uses the word “dispensation” as a theological term only a few times is no problem. Theologians use the words “atonement” and “Trinity” even though these words do not occur in the New Testament.

Ryrie defines a dispensation as “a stewardship, an administration, oversight, or management of others’ property… . This involves responsibility, accountability, and faithfulness on the part of the steward.”11 Dispensationalism as a system in present-day discussions is most commonly associated with and stems from premillennialism because of the emphasis of premillenarians on normal, literal, grammatical interpretation, which points to a clear distinction between Israel and the church.12

Biblical Dispensations
As noted earlier, only three dispensations are discussed extensively in the Scriptures—the Law, grace (church), and the kingdom (the millennium)—though others are indicated in the Scriptures. For example The Scofield Reference Bible lists seven dispensations in the footnotes and then discusses each one subsequently in later footnotes. The seven are “Innocence (Gen. 1:28); Conscience or Moral Responsibility (Gen. 3:7); Human Government (Gen. 8:15); Promise (Gen. 12:1); Law (Ex. 19:1); Church (Acts 2:1); Kingdom (Rev. 20:4).”13 Wilmington, on the other hand, lists nine dispensations.
1. The dispensation of innocence (from creation of man to the fall of man); 2. The dispensation of conscience (from the fall to the flood); 3. The dispensation of civil government (from the flood to the disbursement of Babel); 4. The dispensation of promise or patriarchal rule (from Babel to Mount Sinai); 5. The dispensation of the Mosaic Law (from Mount Sinai to the upper room); 6. The dispensation of the bride of the Lamb, the Church (from the upper room to the Rapture); 7. The dispensation of the wrath of the Lamb—the tribulation (from the Rapture to the Second Coming); 8. The dispensation of the rule of the Lamb—the Millennium (from the Second Coming to the Great White Throne Judgment); 9. The dispensation of the new creation of the land—the world without end (from the Great White Throne Judgment throughout all eternity).14


That citation is from a leading dispensational promoter, bible.org of Dallas Theological Seminary, 'Reflections on Dispensationalism', by John F Walvoord.

Not a word here about the Jesuits as there shouldn't be.

Oz
 

Born_Again

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Yeah, I still don't get it. But oh well. :) What is it that they believe that puts a distinction between them and everyone else?
 

Guestman

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The churches have taught for centuries that the soul is something separate from the body, being immortal and readily confuse this with the spirit. The Bible clarifies the meaning of soul and spirit. The Hebrew word for soul is nephesh that literally means "breather". At Genesis 2:7, it says that "the Lord God (whose name is Jehovah) formed man out of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."(King James Version)

The apostle Paul wrote: "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul".(1 Cor 15:45, KJV) Thus, just from these two Scriptures, it can already be discerned that man does not have a soul but is one. To further grasp that the soul is us as person with all our desires, Deuteronomy 12 says that "when the Lord God shall enlarge thy border, as he hath promised thee, and thou shalt say, I will eat flesh, because thy soul longeth to eat flesh; thou mayest eat flesh, whatsoever thy soul lusteth after".(Deut 12:20, KJV)

Thus, the soul "eats" and breathes, and also has blood, for Jeremiah 2 says to those in Jerusalem, the city being portrayed as a "woman" in which "also in thy skirts is found the blood of the poor innocents".(Jer 2:34) Animals are souls also, for Numbers 31 says to "levy a tribute unto the Lord of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves (or herd),and of the asses (or donkeys), and of the sheep".(Num 31:28, KJV)

Hence, the soul is us as a person, which just as with Adam when Jehovah God put within him "breath" or active force (Hebrew ru'ach), he came to life as a "living soul", so we are a "living soul" that eats and breathes. The spirit or life force is what gives us life, for just as a computer can be complete but without a power source, it remains dead, so likewise we are dead without our life force or spirit.

James wrote that "indeed, just as the body without spirit (Greek pneuma) is dead, so also faith without works is dead".(James 2:26) Again it could be likened to a refrigerator that without its power supply is dead. Psalms 104 says that "if you (God) take away their spirit (Heb ru'ach), they die and return to the dust. If you send out your spirit (holy spirit or God's active force), they are created".(Ps 104:29, 30)

Life ceases when we lose our "spirit" or active force that enables us to be alive, just as unplugging an electrical appliance. On the other hand, just as Adam came to life when "breath" or life force was instilled within him, keeping alive through breath or breathing, so we too received "spirit" or life force directly from our parents when we were conceived in the womb, kept alive through breathing, for life only comes from life.
 

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Born_Again

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whitestone said:
(Joh 11:26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.

Believest thou this?
Yes, but that isn't what we are talking about, per say....
 

Guestman

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Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe in "soul sleep", that the soul is something mysterious apart from the body and is "asleep" upon death, for had there been any concerted effort by individuals, they could have readily seen that the soul is us as a person with all our desires, in which the Hebrew word for soul is nephesh that literally means "breather".


But many, and yes, I mean many do not seriously examine the Bible so as to draw an accurate understanding of some of its fundamental truths, but quickly keep in step with the churches of Christendom as what to accept. With a computer program, such as the ellis Ultra Bible Library, a person can type in the word "soul" in the search perimeter box and then can see within 15 minutes that the soul eats (Deut 12:20, KJV), that it has blood (Jer 2:34, KJV), that it can die (Eze 18:4, 20, KJV), that it can be destroyed (Matt 10:28; Acts 3:23, KJV)


Yet, the masses who attend the churches or are just "believers", still insist that the soul is something that separates from the body upon death and is immortal. But consider this: Since immortality is a gift from God only for the righteous who are "sealed with the promised holy spirit" (Eph 1:13) to become spirit "sons of God" (1 Cor 15:50-53), then how can the wicked who are said by the churches to "go to hell" have an "immortal soul" ?


Hence, most never give serious consideration or thought to what the Bible really teaches, but stay in the same "rut" that just about all others do, of just accepting whatever the churches dispense without question. Are they truly interested in accurate Bible truth or are they interested in doing what Proverbs 18:2 says, that "a stupid person takes no pleasure in understanding; He would rather disclose what is in his heart" ?


Churchgoers or believers often want to "disclose what is in their heart", or voice their own personal opinion on a Scriptural topic rather than ' take pleasure in understanding ' what the Bible really teaches. A "stupid" person (or "fool", KJV) does not highly evaluate discernment.


In his egotism, he does not wish to have depth of understanding at to what is true and what is not. So they take the stance of "don't rock the boat", or "leave things as they are". However, concerning the truth of a soul, when a person dies, they as once a "living soul" (Gen 2:7) then becomes a "dead soul" in which the life force or their spirit has left.(Lev 21:11, whereby the Hebrew naphshoth (plural for nephesh) is followed by meth, meaning "dead" or literally "dead souls"; see also Gen 7:22)
 

Ac28

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A dispensationalist is a person who sees in the scriptures that God treats Jews and Gentiles differently. He then studies to discover what these differences are,
 

kerwin

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ATP said:
Is 2 Cor 5:8 real proof between death and the first resurrection that when we die, we go to be with the Lord immediately.

2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

I believe this..

The False Doctrine of 'Soul Sleep'
...
I disagree with that interpretation because it implies Jesus used a false doctrine in his Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. An alternative interpretation that does not disagree with Jesus' description of what happens after death would have a possibility of being true depending on whether it cannot be disproved and is not dependent on an argument from ignorance to be proved.

There is also the argument from faith but that depends on if one has the true faith or not and its is tricky for humans to judge what is the true faith though they think they can..

In this case since Scripture is not broken I can say that that interpretation is flawed. The same evidence reveals the Tenet of Soul Sleep is also false though there are subtleties involved that may be true.
 

Angelina

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Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe in "soul sleep"
They believe in soul annihilation to be exact, which means that when we die the soul ceases to exist then the redeemed souls, will be re-created at a future time...Seems ridiculous when you think about it since our souls would have had all our experiences, values and traits we have experienced in that life time...which would also be annihilated with the said soul... :eek: so that particular soul would just be an empty vessel supposedly of some past believer....
 

kerwin

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Angelina said:
They believe in soul annihilation to be exact, which means that when we die the soul ceases to exist then the redeemed souls, will be re-created at a future time...Seems ridiculous when you think about it since our souls would have had all our experiences, values and traits we have experienced in that life time...which would also be annihilated with the said soul... :eek: so that particular soul would just be an empty vessel supposedly of some past believer....
Thank you for the information and I agree with your conclusion.
 

Phoneman777

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OzSpen said:
With respect, that is a distorted view of dispensationalism that is infused with incorrect Jesuit understanding.

I am not a dispensationalist, but Charles C Ryrie is a dispensationalist. Let's look to his understanding of dispensationalism.Ryrie says this about the scriptural basis for dispensationalism:

That citation is from a leading dispensational promoter, bible.org of Dallas Theological Seminary, 'Reflections on Dispensationalism', by John F Walvoord.

Not a word here about the Jesuits as there shouldn't be.

Oz
Oz, the reason you can't see that Dispensationalism is inseparably tied to Jesuit Futurism is that you believe the Jesuits got it right when they introduced Jesuit Futurism as an answer to the accusations leveled against the Papacy by Protestant Historicism, that Protestant Historicism was and is barking up the wrong tree, and that Jesuit Futurism finds its roots in the Bible. Dispensationalism demands that there will be:
  • a pre-trib Secret Rapture
  • a "second chance to get it right" for those "left behind"
  • a last 7 (or 3.5) years of tribulation
  • a one-man Antichrist
  • a rebuilt Jerusalem temple in which he will rule
  • a 7 year peace accord which will be broken resulting in Armageddon
Absolutely none of this garbage was taught anywhere by anyone until after the champions of true Biblical faith arose and began teaching Protestant Historicism, which holds that:
  • Christ Himself said He will not return in the "secret chambers". He will Rapture the saints at His glorious Second Coming, both events being simultaneous
  • there is no second chance when Christ returns to the earth
  • "He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week" has to do with Christ's 7 year confirmation of HIS covenant of grace, first in His Person and then by "them that heard Him" (Hebrews 2:3 KJV) - Satan makes no eschatologically relevant covenants with any one (Job 41:4 KJV)
  • Antichrist is a kingdom, not one man (Daniel 7:19-28 KJV)
  • the temple he will sit in and rule is the church, the "temple of God" (Paul and Peter continually refer to the church as such)
  • "in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifices and oblations to cease" refers to the 70th week which commenced when Christ was anointed by the Holy Spirit in Jordan and began His 3 1/2 year journey to the Cross which event caused the entire earthly sacrificial system to forever cease in the sight of God, seeing that Jesus died as the Supreme Sacrifice to which all others pointed for thousands of years, and then arose 3 days later to ascend as our High Priest - any building erected to resume that sacrificial system would be nothing more than a "middle finger in the face of God" by those who would dare make such an official public rejection of the Messiah who already came by the construction of such an abomination.
If you have found a way to divorce Dispensationlism from what Jesuit Futurism teaches as described by the above and anyone who has a competent knowledge of church history, please let me know. I am interested to read how you do it. Thanks.
 

OzSpen

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Phoneman777 said:
Oz, the reason you can't see that Dispensationalism is inseparably tied to Jesuit Futurism is that you believe the Jesuits got it right when they introduced Jesuit Futurism as an answer to the accusations leveled against the Papacy by Protestant Historicism, that Protestant Historicism was and is barking up the wrong tree, and that Jesuit Futurism finds its roots in the Bible.
This is a false accusation.
 

kerwin

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Phoneman777 said:
Oz, the reason you can't see that Dispensationalism is inseparably tied to Jesuit Futurism is that you believe the Jesuits got it right when they introduced Jesuit Futurism as an answer to the accusations leveled against the Papacy by Protestant Historicism, that Protestant Historicism was and is barking up the wrong tree, and that Jesuit Futurism finds its roots in the Bible. Dispensationalism demands that there will be:
  • a pre-trib Secret Rapture
  • a "second chance to get it right" for those "left behind"
  • a last 7 (or 3.5) years of tribulation
  • a one-man Antichrist
  • a rebuilt Jerusalem temple in which he will rule
  • a 7 year peace accord which will be broken resulting in Armageddon
Absolutely none of this garbage was taught anywhere by anyone until after the champions of true Biblical faith arose and began teaching Protestant Historicism, which holds that:
  • Christ Himself said He will not return in the "secret chambers". He will Rapture the saints at His glorious Second Coming, both events being simultaneous
  • there is no second chance when Christ returns to the earth
  • "He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week" has to do with Christ's 7 year confirmation of HIS covenant of grace, first in His Person and then by "them that heard Him" (Hebrews 2:3 KJV) - Satan makes no eschatologically relevant covenants with any one (Job 41:4 KJV)
  • Antichrist is a kingdom, not one man (Daniel 7:19-28 KJV)
  • the temple he will sit in and rule is the church, the "temple of God" (Paul and Peter continually refer to the church as such)
  • "in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifices and oblations to cease" refers to the 70th week which commenced when Christ was anointed by the Holy Spirit in Jordan and began His 3 1/2 year journey to the Cross which event caused the entire earthly sacrificial system to forever cease in the sight of God, seeing that Jesus died as the Supreme Sacrifice to which all others pointed for thousands of years, and then arose 3 days later to ascend as our High Priest - any building erected to resume that sacrificial system would be nothing more than a "middle finger in the face of God" by those who would dare make such an official public rejection of the Messiah who already came by the construction of such an abomination.
If you have found a way to divorce Dispensationlism from what Jesuit Futurism teaches as described by the above and anyone who has a competent knowledge of church history, please let me know. I am interested to read how you do it. Thanks.
That is not Dispensation which is only one tenet of a group of doctrines. It teaches God has given different dispensation during different ages since the world began. They may disagree with other Dispensationalists on every tenet you named.

I disagree with the Dispensation tenet but not necessary to some of the other tenets you cited.

I have not heart of Jesuit Futurism before.
 

Phoneman777

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Angelina said:
They believe in soul annihilation to be exact, which means that when we die the soul ceases to exist then the redeemed souls, will be re-created at a future time...Seems ridiculous when you think about it since our souls would have had all our experiences, values and traits we have experienced in that life time...which would also be annihilated with the said soul... :eek: so that
According to Genesis 2:7 KJV, the Soul exists only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life:

Body + Breath of Life = Living Soul
Body - Breath of Life = Dead Soul

Please allow me to state my position another way:

Bulb + Electric Current = Light comes into existence
Bulb - Electric Current = Light ceases to exist

...and this appears to be your position:

Bulb + Electric Current = Light comes into existence
Bulb - Electric Current = Light continues shining on some other unseen plane of existence

Now, which is more ludicrous?