The last trumpet and the 7 trumpets of wrath are not the same. Believers are not appointed to wrath.Phoneman777 said:
Soul sleep
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n2thelight has a good question since all you did was answer with denial and not with an argument revealing flaws in Phoneman777's argument.Heb 13:8 said:
That would be destroyed and recreated not sleep and rise.Phoneman777 said:
To make something from nothing is recreation and the soul is the result of the union between a creation and an non-created thing for God's breath was not created.
Phoneman777
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Yes, the seven are not the same as the last. The seventh trumpet marks the end of Christ's High Priestly ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary and commences His reign as Eternal King - when He takes off His Priestly robes and puts on His Kingly robes and begins the journey back to Earth in His Second Coming. As He descends to an Earth in chaos, the "LAST TRUMP" shall be blown by Him which raises the dead righteous to life in the First Resurrection.Heb 13:8 said:
Yes, believers are not appointed to wrath, though they will most certainly be here in the midst of that wrath, just as:
- Noah and his family remained safe within the midst of the catastrophic Deluge while God protected them in the Ark
- Daniel remained safe in the midst of the lion's den while God protected him from harm.
- The Three Hebrew Worthies remained safe in the midst of the Fiery Furnace while God protected them from burning.
- Israel remained safe in the midst of the 7 Last Plagues while God protected them from them.
Phoneman777
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Phoneman777
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n2thelight said:
It's not that complicated guys. Rev 6:16-17 wrath is referring to trumpets and bowls in Rev 8 etc..and rapture is in Rev 7:9. Read below..kerwin said:
Question: Who do you believe the great multitude are and the armies of heaven are, coming down from heaven dressed in fine linen. Thank you.Phoneman777 said:
Rev 7:9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
Rev 19:1 After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,
Rev 19:8-9 Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.” (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.) 9Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”
Rev 19:14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.
That is redefining a word. Scripture means what it states; not what you want it to.Phoneman777 said:
The first death does not kill the soul is disagreement with your implications.
It is at the second death the soul is destroyed. Beware the second death.
I do not think we will come to an agreement on this issue. Thank you for your time.
I was just referring to poor debate form as I am not sure of the details. Frankly, I do not see them as much importance since Revolutions was written many years after many fell asleep in Christ. It does reassure believers as well as teach that the just will inherit life and the unjust will perish from this earth. The later makes this a world of sin so their end is well deserved. It also a warning but few of the elect, if any, need it since they have already been warned by the Spirit. It serves more to condemn those that will not heed its warning.Heb 13:8 said:
I know enough to know the timing of the rapture is a tricky issue it is not know necessary to salvation. That may well make it an area where opinion is acceptable since God has not revealed the whole truth about it but just what he needed to for other purposes.
Soul sleep theory is propagated by Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists.
The sect now known as the Jehovah’s Witnesses was started by Charles Taze Russell, who was born in 1852 and worked in Pittsburgh as a haberdasher. He was raised a Congregationalist, but at the age of seventeen he tried to convert an atheist to Christianity and ended up being converted instead—not to outright atheism, but to agnosticism. Some years later he went to an Adventist meeting, was told that Jesus would be back at any time, and got interested in the Bible.
The leading light of Adventism had been William Miller, a flamboyant preacher who predicted that the world would end in 1843. When it didn’t, he "discovered" an arithmetical error in his eschatological calculations and said it would end in 1844. When his prediction again failed, many people became frustrated and withdrew from the Adventist movement, but a remnant, led by Ellen G. White, went on to form the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
It was this diminished Adventism which influenced Russell, who took the title "Pastor" even though he never got through high school. In 1879, he began the Watch Tower—what would later be known as the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, the teaching organ of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. In 1908 he moved its headquarters to Brooklyn, where it has remained ever since.
Before he got his religious career well underway, Russell promoted what he called "miracle wheat,"
which he sold at sixty dollars per bushel. He claimed it would grow five times as well as regular wheat. In fact, it grew slightly less well than regular wheat, as was established in court when Russell was sued. Later he marketed a fake cancer cure and what he termed a "millennial bean" :blink: (which a wag has said probably got that name because it took a thousand years to sprout).
History of the JW's <<read more here
How can anybody trust their doctrines???? And being around for only 100 years...
The sect now known as the Jehovah’s Witnesses was started by Charles Taze Russell, who was born in 1852 and worked in Pittsburgh as a haberdasher. He was raised a Congregationalist, but at the age of seventeen he tried to convert an atheist to Christianity and ended up being converted instead—not to outright atheism, but to agnosticism. Some years later he went to an Adventist meeting, was told that Jesus would be back at any time, and got interested in the Bible.
The leading light of Adventism had been William Miller, a flamboyant preacher who predicted that the world would end in 1843. When it didn’t, he "discovered" an arithmetical error in his eschatological calculations and said it would end in 1844. When his prediction again failed, many people became frustrated and withdrew from the Adventist movement, but a remnant, led by Ellen G. White, went on to form the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
It was this diminished Adventism which influenced Russell, who took the title "Pastor" even though he never got through high school. In 1879, he began the Watch Tower—what would later be known as the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, the teaching organ of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. In 1908 he moved its headquarters to Brooklyn, where it has remained ever since.
Before he got his religious career well underway, Russell promoted what he called "miracle wheat,"
which he sold at sixty dollars per bushel. He claimed it would grow five times as well as regular wheat. In fact, it grew slightly less well than regular wheat, as was established in court when Russell was sued. Later he marketed a fake cancer cure and what he termed a "millennial bean" :blink: (which a wag has said probably got that name because it took a thousand years to sprout).History of the JW's <<read more here
How can anybody trust their doctrines???? And being around for only 100 years...
It's not propagated by anyone.kepha31 said:
The Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek.
The Greek translation for spirit is wind or breath.
We do not exist as wind or breath in heaven without bodies.
It's not tricky at all, otherwise that day would surprise us like a thief.kerwin said:
The Lord comes as a thief to nonbelievers. Believers will not be surprised on that day. We can actually know the day and the hour from the idiom here. The day of rapture is the Day of the Lord on the Feast of Trumpets in the latter half of the 70th week, and the hour is at sunset at the twinkling of an eye - http://www.torahcalendar.com/SUNSET.asp
Matt 24:37-39 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
1 Thess 5:1-10 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.
Nonbelievers
1. As it was in the days of Noah
2. people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage
3. and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away
4. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape
5. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night.
Believers
1. Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you
2. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief
3. You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.
4. So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober.
5. But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.
6. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
7. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.
Please, I hear too much of this nonsense and not enough on living by the Spirit.Heb 13:8 said:
Believers do not care when the day or hour comes but for they know that it can come at any time and so always watch their life and doctrine so they may found spotless (2 Peter 3:14) when it does come. Those that think knowing the day and hour are important have the wrong priorities and need to learn how to put on the new man created like God in true righteousness and holiness less(Ephesians 4:24) they be found naked on that day. (Revelations 16:15)
You are misinterpreting those words as your interpretation of them does not disagree with these:
Matthew 24:36.
At the least, "Not in darkness" means one is asking, seeing, and knocking for the goal of walking according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh. (Galatians 5 combined with Jesus' words in Matthew 7:7)
I was raised a Seventh Day Adventist but do not know if they got the idea correct. The do not believe the soul stop existing after death.Heb 13:8 said:
Soul rest may be more correct but I have not looked enough to hazard a guess beyond saying the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus speaks of an actual place and it infers a conversation can take place between the dead.
Soul sleep is not in the Bible; it was invented around the 19th century. There is no evidence of this interpretation in existence before then. It is not accepted by Protestants, Catholics or Orthodox, just sects with nefarious origins.Heb 13:8 said:
Phoneman777
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The "armies of heaven" are the angels coming with Jesus at His Second Coming. The 'great multitude' are the redeemed in heaven AFTER Jesus comes back to take them there.Heb 13:8 said:
Phoneman777
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The doctrine of "consciousness in death" is not in the Bible. It was invented by Satanic paganism and dragged into Christianity by the RCC. The Bible knows NOTHING of this doctrine. The wisest man who ever lived settled the issue around 1,000 years before Christ when he wrote the following:kepha31 said:Soul sleep is not in the Bible; it was invented around the 19th century. There is no evidence of this interpretation in existence before then. It is not accepted by Protestants, Catholics or Orthodox, just sects with nefarious origins.
"THE LIVING KNOW THAT THEY SHALL DIE, BUT THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING." ECCLESIASTES 9:6 KJV
According to the doctrine of "consciousness in death", the dead know lots of things. They have knowledge of the past, present, future, even secrets like where Uncle Joe buried his coffee can full of $1,000 bills, where Aunt Jane lost her favorite necklace, even where murder victims lie hidden. These are not revelations of our dearly departed loved ones, these are from "the spirits of DEVILS working miracles which go forth to deceive the world". It should not surprise us that so many refuse to accept the plain words of Scripture that death is the cessation of life, not a continuation of it. They are deceived of the devil.
I believe the Greek text over any century man made imagination. How will kepha exist as wind? Is it magic. Thanks.kepha31 said:
Underline: Look again. Rev 7:9 comes before trumpets and bowls. The armies of heaven is the body of Christ and also angels. They were in heaven before Jesus landed on earth..Phoneman777 said:
Rev 7:9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
Rev 19:1 After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,
Rev 19:8-9 Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.” (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.) 9Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”
Rev 19:14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.
Soul sleep came from Charles Taze Russell's imagination in the early 1900's. Original Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew can be mangled beyond recognition. see 2 Peter 1:20Heb 13:8 said:
If I am wrong, you should have no problem identifying who, when and where it was taught it before then. You can't. It's a novel post-enlightenment invention.
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