Eternal torment and emotional conflict

KingJ,

I think we are getting off topic with the OP but I believe that it is also essential to speak about the true nature of salvation to you and to those who are reading this thread.

It is irrelevant which word came first whether “world” or “whosoever” but rather, what matters is how we understand the meaning of John 3:16 or any other scripture texts.

People in the churches for the past 100 yrs. or so are taught that Jesus paid for the sins of each and everyone in the world and those who will believe are the only ones to be saved. The problem with this type of idea is that it is contrary to Ephesians 2:9. “Believing”, “faith in”, “confessing”...etc., are works that man performs, and will not bring anyone an inch of iota closer to salvation! Romans 3:10-11 declares, “there is none righteous, there is none that doeth good, and there is none that seeks after God”. If there is none righteous and none that seeks after God, who then can believe on the Lord Jesus? NONE and THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS!

The call to believe on Jesus goes out into the world but according to Romans 3:10-11 no one will believe. But wonderfully, in John 6:44 God did open the spiritual eyes and ears of those who will believe and gave these to the Lord Jesus.

Proverbs 8:36 is merely stating a truism that those who hate God places themselves under the curse of death, and is only a figure of speech, and has nothing to do with loving death.

The Bible is one cohesive whole from Genesis to Revelation. The Gospel should be seen on very page of Scripture, and if we don't see it is because our understanding is faulty, and not because it is not there.

Questions:
1. If you truly know the meaning of Prov. 8:36, what death is in view?
2. How many sins did Jesus take away from a believer at the moment of salvation?
3. Which part of man's being was initially saved upon salvation?

The last two questions pertains to OSAS.

To God Be The Glory

Jun2u said:

2. How many sins did Jesus take away from a believer at the moment of salvation?
3. Which part of man's being was initially saved upon salvation?

The last two questions pertains to OSAS.

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2. Past, present and future
3. Soul, spirit and body

ATP,

2. That's correct. All of the believer's sins have been washed away by Jesus and the proof is in
2 Corinthians 5:8, also the gates of hell shall not prevail.

3. Your answer to question 3 however is only half true. Only in his soul existence does a believer
become saved at the moment of salvation. His body returns to the dust upon death and will not
be saved until he is given a resurrected body on the last day. Unless he is still alive when Jesus
returns.

We see Paul's anguish when he cried in Romans 7:24:

“O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?”

He knew that his body will keep on sinning long after he was saved. Ro. 7:23, 25

Jun2u said:

ATP,

2. That's correct. All of the believer's sins have been washed away by Jesus and the proof is in
2 Corinthians 5:8, also the gates of hell shall not prevail.

3. Your answer to question 3 however is only half true. Only in his soul existence does a believer
become saved at the moment of salvation. His body returns to the dust upon death and will not
be saved until he is given a resurrected body on the last day. Unless he is still alive when Jesus
returns.

We see Paul's anguish when he cried in Romans 7:24:

“O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?”

He knew that his body will keep on sinning long after he was saved. Ro. 7:23, 25

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I agree. Good scripture.

Jun2u said:

KingJ,

It is irrelevant which word came first whether “world” or “whosoever” but rather, what matters is how we understand the meaning of John 3:16 or any other scripture texts.

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Proper language comprehension skills is not irrelevant.

When ''World'' precedes ''whomsoever'' the scope of world is not excluded to only believers. But, should the ''whomsoever'' precede ''world'' the scope of world is limited by the whomsoever. This is the most popular Christian verse, we must get it right and be 'dead' nervous of twisting it.

People in the churches for the past 100 yrs. or so are taught that Jesus paid for the sins of each and everyone in the world and those who will believe are the only ones to be saved. The problem with this type of idea is that it is contrary to Ephesians 2:9. “Believing”, “faith in”, “confessing”...etc., are works that man performs, and will not bring anyone an inch of iota closer to salvation! Romans 3:10-11 declares, “there is none righteous, there is none that doeth good, and there is none that seeks after God”. If there is none righteous and none that seeks after God, who then can believe on the Lord Jesus? NONE and THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS!

Click to expand...

What Paul is saying is that nobody can save themselves. We are all sinners. Along the lines of 1 John 1:8. This does not speak of our hearts intent though. Example Rom 7:15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. If you lookup the texts that Paul is quoting, especially the second half of his quote you will find that it was directed at the wicked. It was never directed at Abraham, Moses, Noah, Jonah..etc.

Our ''love'' is genuine when we HATE what is evil and cling to what is good Rom 12:9. Albeit we are ....in sin / doing what we hate. Perhaps the best OT verse describing the heart condition God wants from us is Psalm 51:17 My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart you, God, will not despise.

Try and understand that there were people with sin in Abrahams bosom and people with sin in Hades. What separated them? Clearly it was that those in Hades loved the darkness John 3:19 and those in paradise repented / came to the light Psalm 51:17...albeit they were all in the darkness. Salvation that we had NOTHING to do with / could do NOTHING to receive was when Jesus took all those in Abraham's bosom / those like us BAC's today who hate what is evil.... to heaven / reconciled us with God.

You really condemning to hellfire ....Abraham, Moses, Noah, all the elders, 70 some other prophets, high priests and heck all those like Lazarus in Abraham's bosom...if Jesus never died?

What of James 4:8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

Matt 16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.

Gospel OT = Repent
Gospel NT = Repent + Good news

But wonderfully, in John 6:44 God did open the spiritual eyes and ears of those who will believe and gave these to the Lord Jesus.

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You have to try understand that there is a process to being saved. You are quoting the final part. The steps involved are:

1. God is knocking at the door to all our hearts Rev 3:20.
2. We draw close to God James 4:8 by following verses like James 1:27, Psalm 51:17 and Rom 12:9.
3. God judges heart and mind Jer 17:10.
4. When we pass, God comes in, Holy Spirit reveals to us that a man who walked the earth 2000 years ago is in fact God 1 Cor 12:3 / we become new creations 2 Cor 5:17.

Proverbs 8:36 is merely stating a truism that those who hate God places themselves under the curse of death, and is only a figure of speech, and has nothing to do with loving death.

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You are dodging this verse. It is saying that death is a state of being that they love. Much like this verse Col 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the un-circumcision of your flesh.

Stop imagining annihilation and just read them as they are written .

The Bible is one cohesive whole from Genesis to Revelation. The Gospel should be seen on very page of Scripture, and if we don't see it is because our understanding is faulty, and not because it is not there.

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I could not agree more.

What Calvinists do is ...they take 1. God is omniscient + 2. God is omnipotent = God made all people for hell but saves some for heaven = evil God

Instead of ....1. God is omniscient + 2. God is omnipotent + 3. God is good Psalm 136:1 + 4. there is no evil in God 1 John 1:5 + 5. the cross (limited omnipotence) = free will = good God.

Questions:
1. If you truly know the meaning of Prov. 8:36, what death is in view?
2. How many sins did Jesus take away from a believer at the moment of salvation?
3. Which part of man's being was initially saved upon salvation?

Click to expand...

1. God is like a rich man who wants to bless us. But many choose poverty. Poverty however is in the eye of the beholder and from God's vantage point the word that best describes that is death. Meaning, life in heaven / God's presence is really something great to look forward to. Not ''God mercilessly annihilates them''.

2. Scripture does say He took our sins away and removed them as far as the East is from the West. But what you have to consider with that verse is the simple reality that we stay the human race in heaven. Does scripture say we become ''angels'' or ''monkeys'' ? I see it more as Jesus covers all our sins. We don't ever lose our free will to get upset with each other. Free will to ignore God for the day.. ^_^ . Scripture that says 'Jesus will bear the mark on His hand' points in that direction.

We are just sanctified along the lines of James 5:20. Accepting Jesus > any harmful thing we can do in the future.

3. We will know we are saved when we sit face to face with Jesus. Only a fool thinks he has made it now 1 Cor 10:12. On that day scripture tells us we will put on immortality, so the specifics just seem too pedantic to discuss now.

I have 2 questions I really want you to answer for me please:

1. Why do you serve a God that you believe is partial (evil), removes your memories (hides evil), forces you to love Him (evil) and is merciless with the enemy (annihilation)?

Partial = OSAS for us living NT vs name blotted out OT Ex 32 + everyone en route to hell... but you and some others are chosen for eternal bliss.

2. What would your sentence to the wicked be? Just consider this....If the righteous are '''barely'' saved 1 Pet 4:18 ...the difference between that person and the one that goes to hell is ....eternal bliss vs annihilation.... .

Our brains can help us to escape God's judgment 1 Cor 11:31. So...surely they can help us judge an appropriate sentence for a sin 1 Cor 6:2. So how do you not judge the fate the enemy deserves as > Geneva convention? Especially when the message we received from God is: 1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all and Matt 5:44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.

Critical_Thinker said:

Does the teaching of eternal torment and the idea of your loved ones being tortured forever cause a conflict within your conscience?

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It used to when I believed it.

Hell is Eternal - ATP Notes

Note 1: It is true that Gehenna can be a reference to the Valley of Hinnom, which is located near Jerusalem. "Gehenna" is not actually a Greek word, but it is a transliteration of a Hebrew word that literally means "Hinnom Valley." The transliterated word is found in the Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Bible, but is not found in the common Greek literary works. When we move to the New Testament, we must determine whether the use of the word gehenna is referring to the physical valley near Jerusalem or to the broader idea of a place of punishment. If the translator uses the phrase "Valley of Hinnom" when the idea of a place of punishment was meant, it is likely that people in other cultures, not knowing the valley's horrible past, will only think of the physical location and not the concept it represents.

Note 2: The place is not the physical Hinnom Valley. Jesus said it was a place where only God had the power to cast a man (Luke 12:5). If this was the literal Hinnom Valley, anyone could put a person there. Jesus also said not to fear men who can only kill the body, but to fear God who could put both the body and soul into gehenna. Again, Jesus is not making a reference to a physical place because no physical place can contain a man's soul. Jesus also refers back to the passage in Isaiah 66:24 and states that gehenna is a place where the fire is not quenched and the decay never ends. The physical Valley of Hinnom is not eternal. Hence, we conclude that Jesus is not speaking of a physical place but using the term gehenna to refer to the place of eternal punishment. In English, this place is known by the name Hell. Why was gehenna transliterated into the Greek instead of being translated? My guess is that the Greek culture did not have a word that referred to a place of eternal punishment, hence the Hebrew term was borrowed.

Note 3: Gehenna, being associated with these ideas, appropriately served as a symbolic designation for the place of suffering to which evil persons will be consigned following the Lord’s return.

Note 4: When the Lord affirmed that God will “destroy” both body and soul in Gehenna (Mt. 10:28), he employed the word apollumi (used about 92 times in the New Testament). It is translated by such terms as “destroy,” “perish,” “loss,” and “lost.” The term does not suggest the sense of annihilation.

Note 5: In every instance where the word apollumi is found in the New Testament, something other than annihilation is being described. Regarding apollumi, the idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being." http://www.misselbrook.org.uk/Parsing.aspx?PNum=11165

Note 6: The lake of fire wasn't even thought of until John penned it down in Revelation.

Hell is not eternal - ATP Notes

However, once we apply such limiting criteria, what we immediately find is that the range of meaning that was present in the entire apoleia word group is now filtered out entirely, and one clear emphasis of meaning remains. This is because in every single instance of the word apollumi where these criteria are met – The example is in the Synoptic Gospels, the active voice is used and the word clearly refers to the actions of one person or agent against another, the term apollumi – setting aside Matthew 10:28 – always refers to the literal killing of a person, with not a single exception. I will list just seven representative examples, but the reader is encouraged to check this for themselves:

In Matthew 2:13, Herod wants to kill the baby Jesus.
In Matthew 12:14 the Pharisees conspired together about how they might kill Jesus.
In Matthew 21:41 (story of the wicked tenants) the vineyard owner kills the wicked tenants.
In Matthew 27:20, the elders and chief priests urge the people to have Barabbas released and Jesus killed.
In Mark 3:6, the Pharisees plot to kill Jesus.
In Mark 9:22, the parents of a boy with an unclean spirit tell Jesus that the spirit often throws the boy into water or into a fire, trying to kill him.
In Luke 6:9, Jesus asks if it is lawful on the Sabbath to save life or kill.

In each and every other instance where all these criteria are met, the meaning is the same. There literally is no semantic range in these cases. Some claims in biblical interpretation are matters of opinion and open to question, but this is not one of them. This is a feature of the raw data itself – what we think it implies however may be questioned. But at minimum, it is clear that to take a meaning that arises from a significantly different usage of apollumi – a different voice, or a different body of literature, or a different context (e.g. where we are no longer looking at the actions of one person or agent against another), and to insist that we should attribute that meaning to a use of the word that conforms to the pattern described here, at very least requires a very robust defence. The mere fact that the wider apoleia word group is capable of expressing such meanings under different conditions (e.g. ruin, lose etc) cannot be the reason that we should find that meaning in Matthew 10:28, for this would be a perfect example of the illegitimate totality transfer. However theologically inconvenient it may be for defenders of the traditional doctrine of the eternal torments of hell, this is an instance where the exegetical evidence is very heavily against them, and there is no apparent escape route via an appeal to semantics.