Round Trip or One Way?

Phoneman777 · Jan 31, 2015

The majority of Christians believe it's possible for people to return to a place they've never departed. As irrational as it sounds, this belief is the foundation for a distortion of the truth of what happens when we die. A brief look at three texts which will explain the “before, during, and after” of man and will reveal why the “Blessed Hope” is so aptly name.

#1 BEFORE

“Wherefore I praised the dead which are already dead more than the living which are yet alive. Yea, better is he than both they, which hath not yet been, who hath not seen the evil work that is done under the sun.” (Ecclesiastes 4:2-3 KJV)

Here we see that before man begins, he simply doesn't exist, plain and simple. Please discard any ideas about “pre-existing souls that God injects into the bodies of His creatures to make them alive” to the trash bin of error. It simply isn't so.

#2 DURING

“The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground (Body), and breathed into his nostrils the Breath of Life (Spirit), and man became a Living Soul. (Genesis 2:7 KJV)

Body + Spirit = Living Soul.

Here we see that man was not “given” a Soul, but that he IS a Soul. A Soul begins to exist at the moment the two components of it, which are the Spirit and the Body, are joined together. The human mind – the “I”, “Me”, “Ego”, “Self”, etc. – with its thoughts, emotions, memory, knowledge, wisdom, personality, intuition, and all other aspects of it, is properly identified with the Soul – not the Spirit – because the mind obviously did not exist apart from or prior to the existence of the Soul.

It is through FALSELY identifying these aspects of the human mind with the “Spirit” instead of the “Soul” that the distortion of the truth of the afterlife is accomplished, as revealed in # 3.

#3 AFTER

“Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the Spirit shall return unto God Who gave it.” (Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV)

Body – Spirit = Dead Soul.

According to James 2:26 KJV, the body without the Spirit is dead. The Spirit returns to God, the Body returns to the earth. Since every aspect of our existence originated and existed solely down here and since at no time during our existence have we ever departed from the heavenly courts up there, how is it that it is claimed that "we" return to God at death? How can "we" return to a place from which we have never departed? Can "we" return to the Sun? Or to the Moon? (well, maybe if you're John Glenn or one of those guys) Then how can "we" return with the Spirit to God?

Again, it is through falsely identifying the human mind with the Spirit, which does indeed return to God at death, instead of properly identifying it with the Soul, which is utterly dependent on the union of the Body and the Spirit for it to exist. And since this union is broken at death, the undesired, unpopular, though unavoidable conclusion is that the Soul ceases to exist at death – aka Annihilation. Suddenly, all those verses in the Bible which point to death as a state of insensibility where there is not the existence of love, hatred, knowledge, wisdom, emotion, reasoning, and even praise and worship makes sense.

This is why Paul called the coming of Jesus and the resurrection He brings with Him the “Blessed Hope” and why he directs us to comfort the bereaving saints with words of that Blessed Hope, and not with words that our beloved dead are in the presence of God.

Born_Again · Jan 31, 2015

I'm not saying I believe in reincarnation, but how does one explain if someone can recall things that did not involve them or happened years before they were born? I do support some claims of that... I haven't personally had that but there is a particular era I feel homesick for though my grandparents were children during this era. Just curious if it is entirely possible in any way shape or form that a soul can be sent back but as someone else, for the purpose of serving the Lord in that era? We are all meant to serve a purpose on earth for the Lord, but is it possible he sends someone back later, based on performance the first time around LOL Just a hypathical. <<<<--- There is no way I spelled that right.

lforrest · Jan 31, 2015

I was following along up till #3.

The body + spirit = soul concept is good. However your assuming the process is reversible, so that when the spirit departs from the body the soul ceases to exist. This would mean that one who kills the body would also be killing the soul, but this is contrary to Matthew 10:28.

I can't offer an alternative view though. To me the relation between the human body, soul, and spirit is so mysterious.

ATP · Jan 31, 2015

Phoneman777 said:
Body + Spirit = Living Soul.

I understand what you're trying to get across, believe me. But isn't the soul a spiritual entity also. As in the spirit and soul are both invisible entities.

Phoneman777 said:
Again, it is through falsely identifying the human mind with the Spirit, which does indeed return to God at death, instead of properly identifying it with the Soul, which is utterly dependent on the union of the Body and the Spirit for it to exist.

Yeah, but the soul is dependent on the body and spirit in our mortal bodies on this old earth.
Our flesh doesn't have personality, it is simply the shell that holds our personality.
When the body gives up the spirit/soul, these spiritual entities go back to God, to be with the Lord.

Phoneman777 · Jan 31, 2015

lforrest said:
I was following along up till #3.

The body + spirit = soul concept is good. However your assuming the process is reversible, so that when the spirit departs from the body the soul ceases to exist. This would mean that one who kills the body would also be killing the soul, but this is contrary to Matthew 10:28.

I can't offer an alternative view though. To me the relation between the human body, soul, and spirit is so mysterious.

Hi, friend, we know "as the Body without the Spirit is dead..." so why would we conclude that the Soul is not also, especially with both the OT and NT testifying that Souls die?

That said, the "destruction" of the Soul in hell Jesus spoke of carries with it an obvious connotation of permanence, but the Soul that ceases to be in the First Death has not suffered that permanent death. It will rise again in the resurrection, which is why Jesus considered the First Death only a "sleep", because He knew "as in Adam all die, so in Christ all shall be made alive." It is only the Second Death that the lost Soul is "destroyed" in that it will suffer a death from which there will be no Resurrection.

Phoneman777 · Feb 1, 2015

ATP said:
I understand what you're trying to get across, believe me. But isn't the soul a spiritual entity also. As in the spirit and soul are both invisible entities.

Yeah, but the soul is dependent on the body and spirit in our mortal bodies on this old earth.
Our flesh doesn't have personality, it is simply the shell that holds our personality.
When the body gives up the spirit/soul, these spiritual entities go back to God, to be with the Lord.

There is no such thing as a "spirit/soul". These are TWO SEPARATE THINGS as proven by:

1) the sword of Hebrews 4:12 KJV which can separate the one from the other
2) the fact that, as in the numerous cases in Scripture which declare the Spirit returns to God at death, Jesus' Spirit returned to God UPWARD while His Soul went DOWNWARD to the grave.

Again, if the Soul cannot exist unless the Spirit and the Body are united, how can we expect that the Soul continues to exist after the Spirit and the Body are separated?

ATP · Feb 1, 2015

There is additional evidence that the soul leaves the body at death. Several of the resurrection stories in the Bible describe the soul as returning to the body. This implies, of course, that the soul had left in the first place. First, there is the example of Elijah raising the widow’s son from the dead. “And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again. 22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived” (1 Kings 17:21-22). This passage specifically says that the child’s soul “came into him again.” - ATP

Phoneman777 · Feb 2, 2015

True, but the word for Soul also means "life" which exists only as a consequence of the union of the Spirit and the body. It's interesting that of the 12 miracle resurrections in Scripture, not a single one of these people had even one word to say about what was happening to them while dead. This is because you and I, the living, know that they shall die but the dead know not anything.

Trekson · Feb 2, 2015

phoneman, Your words: ") the fact that, as in the numerous cases in Scripture which declare the Spirit returns to God at death, Jesus' Spirit returned to God UPWARD while His Soul went DOWNWARD to the grave."

prove this by scripture please

ATP · Feb 2, 2015

Phoneman777 said:
It's interesting that of the 12 miracle resurrections in Scripture, not a single one of these people had even one word to say about what was happening to them while dead.

Seriously??? So the proof you are looking for is that they should be able to talk to you after they die?? Grasping at straws are we?

Please read again. How are you missing this? There is additional evidence that the soul leaves the body at death. Several of the resurrection stories in the Bible describe the soul as returning to the body. This implies, of course, that the soul had left in the first place. First, there is the example of Elijah raising the widow’s son from the dead. “And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again. 22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived” (1 Kings 17:21-22). This passage specifically says that the child’s soul “came into him again.”

Also read 2 Tim 4:6 For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time for my departure is near.

Phoneman777 · Feb 3, 2015

Trekson said:
phoneman, Your words: ") the fact that, as in the numerous cases in Scripture which declare the Spirit returns to God at death, Jesus' Spirit returned to God UPWARD while His Soul went DOWNWARD to the grave."

prove this by scripture please

JESUS' SPIRIT WENT UP
When Jesus died, He said, "Into Thy hands I commend My spirit" which is not symbolic, but literal according to these authors:
Job (Job 34:14-15 KJV)
The "Preacher" (Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV)
David (Psalm 146:4 KJV)
Luke (Acts 7:56-59 KJV)

JESUS SOUL WENT DOWN
Peter says David prophesied of God would "not leave (Jesus) soul in hades", which is down here, not up there. (Acts 2:25-27 KJV)

ATP said:
Seriously??? So the proof you are looking for is that they should be able to talk to you after they die?? Grasping at straws are we?

Please read again. How are you missing this? There is additional evidence that the soul leaves the body at death. Several of the resurrection stories in the Bible describe the soul as returning to the body. This implies, of course, that the soul had left in the first place. First, there is the example of Elijah raising the widow’s son from the dead. “And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again. 22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived” (1 Kings 17:21-22). This passage specifically says that the child’s soul “came into him again.”

Also read 2 Tim 4:6 For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time for my departure is near.

"Soul" also means "life" which simply means "life" returned to "lifelessness". Certainly, you don't believe that John's vision in Revelation 16:3 KJV means that he saw the "disembodied souls" of sharks and whales ascending to heaven? A "Soul" is simply a "living creature" which is the union of a body and the breath of life.

ATP · Feb 3, 2015

Phoneman777 said:
"Soul" also means "life" which simply means "life" returned to "lifelessness".

How can life return to lifelessness?

Phoneman777 said:
Certainly, you don't believe that John's vision in Revelation 16:3 KJV means that he saw the "disembodied souls" of sharks and whales ascending to heaven?

Well, since the Bible is silent on this matter we should not add or take away from scripture.

Phoneman777 said:
A "Soul" is simply a "living creature" which is the union of a body and the breath of life.

But if a soul can't exist without the body, then how did it depart and return again?

1 Kings 17:21-22 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again. 22And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.

Phoneman777 · Feb 4, 2015

ATP said:
How can life return to lifelessness?

Well, since the Bible is silent on this matter we should not add or take away from scripture.

But if a soul can't exist without the body, then how did it depart and return again?

1 Kings 17:21-22 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again. 22And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.

What I mean is that life returned to a lifeless BODY. When the Spirit of Life enters a body, the soul comes into existence. Upon departure, the soul "sleeps", or goes out of existence. Upon re-entrance, the soul comes back into existence. When the wicked suffer the Second Death, they shall "sleep a perpetual sleep and not wake" (Jeremiah 51:57 KJV) which is the permanent departure of the Spirit from the body.

Why did you not address my question about Revelation 16:3 KJV, which says "every LIVING SOUL died in the sea"? Certainly, John is not talking about humans dying in the sea because our survival is not dependent upon sea conditions, as in the case of sea creatures. Nor would a human die if he suddenly found himself swimming in a sea of coagulated blood - he'd just climb ashore or back into his boat.

John is referring to sea creatures dying, but surely you couldn't possibly believe that whales and dolphins have a "soul" which flies away at death, could you?

As you can see, John disagrees with what you claim is a "soul" and agrees with what I've been saying all along: that whales, dolphins, lions, etc, like humans, are "living souls" that exist as a consequence of the union of a body and the Spirit of Life and these souls die when that union is broken.

ATP · Feb 5, 2015

Phoneman777 said:
Upon departure, the soul "sleeps", or goes out of existence.

When the soul leaves the body, where does it go to sleep?

Phoneman777 said:
When the wicked suffer the Second Death, they shall "sleep a perpetual sleep and not wake" (Jeremiah 51:57 KJV) which is the permanent departure of the Spirit from the body.

If they shall sleep forever and not awake then why does Rev 20:5 exist. Why do you believe Jer 51:57 is speaking about after the second death?

Phoneman777 said:
Why did you not address my question about Revelation 16:3 KJV..

Because scripture is silent in regards to the souls of animals, cat's dogs etc..

Phoneman777 · Feb 6, 2015

ATP said:
When the soul leaves the body, where does it go to sleep?
Sleep is just a symbol for the temporary death of the living soul, but the Second Death is the permanent death of the living soul of the wicked.

If they shall sleep forever and not awake then why does Rev 20:5 exist. Why do you believe Jer 51:57 is speaking about after the second death?
The Second Coming and the Rapture are simultaneous and begin the thousand years reign of the saints with Jesus in heaven while the wicked sleep until afterward when they are raised, judged, and executed.

Because scripture is silent in regards to the souls of animals, cat's dogs etc..
Actually, Scripture is most vocal in claiming that the sea creatures that die due to the coagulated blood are "living souls". (Revelation 16:3 KJV)

ATP · Feb 7, 2015

Phoneman777 said:
Sleep is just a symbol for the temporary death of the living soul, but the Second Death is the permanent death of the living soul of the wicked.

I really want to make up my mind on this.
So you're saying in 1 Kings 17:21-22, the soul departs the body and goes to be with the Lord and sleeps?
Where does the soul sleep?
Asleep and sleep are words all throughout the Bible so, I just don't understand where they sleep.

Born_Again · Feb 7, 2015

ATP said:
I really want to make up my mind on this.
So you're saying in 1 Kings 17:21-22, the soul departs the body and goes to be with the Lord and sleeps?
Where does the soul sleep?
Asleep and sleep are words all throughout the Bible so, I just don't understand where they sleep.

This has been a great point of debate. It has been said by others that we "sleep" upon our natural or Earthly death. And we awake on Judgment day. From there we are either joined with Him or suffer a spiritual death which is condemnation. I cant recall where, but it does say in scripture (NT) that time is essentially irrelevant to the Kingdom of Heaven. So, could we assume that when we die, that we instantly awake to judgment day? Or, since we are "asleep" do we cease to exist for that time so we have no idea how much time has actually passed? This may very well be one of the mysteries we wont know until God himself shows us.... Thoughts?

ATP · Feb 7, 2015

Born_Again said:
This has been a great point of debate. It has been said by others that we "sleep" upon our natural or Earthly death. And we awake on Judgment day. From there we are either joined with Him or suffer a spiritual death which is condemnation. I cant recall where, but it does say in scripture (NT) that time is essentially irrelevant to the Kingdom of Heaven. So, could we assume that when we die, that we instantly awake to judgment day? Or, since we are "asleep" do we cease to exist for that time so we have no idea how much time has actually passed? This may very well be one of the mysteries we wont know until God himself shows us.... Thoughts?

Consider the powerful evidence in Acts 7:54-59 concerning the murder of Stephen... "When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord. And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

Now do you really think that the Apostle Stephen, who was literally being stoned to death for preaching the Gospel [who is seeing the heaven's opened right before his very eyes and the Lord standing on the right hand of the Father]... do you really think that Stephen just went into unconsciousness in the grave? Of course not! Stephen went to Heaven to be with the Lord. - ATP

Born_Again · Feb 7, 2015

ATP said:
Consider the powerful evidence in Acts 7:54-59 concerning the murder of Stephen... "When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord. And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

Now do you really think that the Apostle Stephen, who was literally being stoned to death for preaching the Gospel [who is seeing the heaven's opened right before his very eyes and the Lord standing on the right hand of the Father]... do you really think that Stephen just went into unconsciousness in the grave? Of course not! Stephen went to Heaven to be with the Lord. - ATP

Okay. I wont refute that. Would you say then you have made up your mind on this? Has that answered your question? You have put forth some seemingly solid evidence that the soul does not sleep, rather goes to it's destination.

ATP · Feb 8, 2015

Born_Again said:
Okay. I wont refute that. Would you say then you have made up your mind on this? Has that answered your question? You have put forth some seemingly solid evidence that the soul does not sleep, rather goes to it's destination.

Yeah, but what are all those scriptures about sleeping? Does "sleep" mean something else. I just don't get it.

If Stephen literally saw the heavens open up then why would he be asleep in Jesus?

1 Thess 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

Round Trip or One Way?

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