Round Trip or One Way?

pom2014 · Mar 9, 2015

Neh 2, 13; 3:13-14; 12:31 mentions the gate of dung in Hebrew the rubbish pit during the second temple period where the filth of the city was consumed with fire. The metaphor is applied to gehenna due to the abhorrent burning of people by worshiping moloch.

Jesus used this allegory to teach the idea of all that is unrighteous, rubbish, will be burnt like the fires in the garbage pit outside the city.

This is again a teaching aide to guide Jews he's speaking with to understand the lesson.

The lake of fire is an allegory to that pit.

ATP · Mar 9, 2015

pom2014 said:
Neh 2, 13; 3:13-14; 12:31 mentions the gate of dung in Hebrew the rubbish pit during the second temple period where the filth of the city was consumed with fire. The metaphor is applied to gehenna due to the abhorrent burning of people by worshiping moloch.

Jesus used this allegory to teach the idea of all that is unrighteous, rubbish, will be burnt like the fires in the garbage pit outside the city.

This is again a teaching aide to guide Jews he's speaking with to understand the lesson.

The lake of fire is an allegory to that pit.

Note 1: It is true that Gehenna can be a reference to the Valley of Hinnom, which is located near Jerusalem. "Gehenna" is not actually a Greek word, but it is a transliteration of a Hebrew word that literally means "Hinnom Valley." The transliterated word is found in the Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Bible, but is not found in the common Greek literary works. When we move to the New Testament, we must determine whether the use of the word gehenna is referring to the physical valley near Jerusalem or to the broader idea of a place of punishment. If the translator uses the phrase "Valley of Hinnom" when the idea of a place of punishment was meant, it is likely that people in other cultures, not knowing the valley's horrible past, will only think of the physical location and not the concept it represents.

Note 2: The place is not the physical Hinnom Valley. Jesus said it was a place where only God had the power to cast a man (Luke 12:5). If this was the literal Hinnom Valley, anyone could put a person there. Jesus also said not to fear men who can only kill the body, but to fear God who could put both the body and soul into gehenna. Again, Jesus is not making a reference to a physical place because no physical place can contain a man's soul. Jesus also refers back to the passage in Isaiah 66:24 and states that gehenna is a place where the fire is not quenched and the decay never ends. The physical Valley of Hinnom is not eternal. Hence, we conclude that Jesus is not speaking of a physical place but using the term gehenna to refer to the place of eternal punishment. In English, this place is known by the name Hell. Why was gehenna transliterated into the Greek instead of being translated? My guess is that the Greek culture did not have a word that referred to a place of eternal punishment, hence the Hebrew term was borrowed.

Note 3: The lake of fire wasn't even thought of until John penned it down in Revelation, hence the Hebrew term being borrowed.

Born_Again · Mar 9, 2015

I have mentioned this before, but if in fact we do go into a state of "Soul Sleep" then essentially wouldn't we die and by our perception, immediately wake to the rapture? So upon death we see His second coming and face judgment?

pom2014 · Mar 9, 2015

Born.

This is precisely what happens. Time is a construct of the human mind. God does not count time as he's beyond it.

So when we lie in wait for the calling we are removed from the time that living men experience. Hence for the dead the resurrection is as if they had just died a moment before.

To count time in the grave would again be evil and God cannot do evil.

This is also why there are no ghosts of men, because to wander trapped in the world would be God being unfaithful to us. Again something he cannot do.

Born_Again · Mar 9, 2015

Okay, Thank you! It seemed to be only logical to me if time is irrelevant in the Kingdom.

pom2014 · Mar 9, 2015

Honestly time doesn't exist.

Only man counts it. The animals don't and God sees the creation and where we are now as but moments apart.

Even in the scale of the cosmos man only existed in the past hour.

What seems like millions of years to man is but a breath to God.

Its about perspective.

Born_Again · Mar 9, 2015

I would agree. When Jesus said His father would return soon, to Him it is soon, because like you said, man measures time.

Phoneman777 · Mar 9, 2015

pom2014 said:
And so the soul can go back into the person again. But can no way go to heaven at death.

Giving up the ghost means that the body cannot support the soul. The body is merely a container. A form of physical animation for this world.

But to go to heaven invalidates revelation, the resurrection and the goodness of God.

To sleep in Jesus, is like the safety of Abrahams bosom as Jesus remarked of Lazarus. But still the soul rests here on earth not on heaven.

Since the "soul" can only exist as a consequence of a body combined with God's Spirit (Genesis 2:7 KJV), then when at death God's Spirit returns to him and the body returns to the dust (Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV), the "soul" ceases to be.

lforrest said:
I was following along up till #3.

The body + spirit = soul concept is good. However your assuming the process is reversible, so that when the spirit departs from the body the soul ceases to exist. This would mean that one who kills the body would also be killing the soul, but this is contrary to Matthew 10:28.

I can't offer an alternative view though. To me the relation between the human body, soul, and spirit is so mysterious.

In the first death, the soul is not "killed", because it is said to "sleep", meaning that the death of the soul is not the end of the story. "As in Adam all die, so in Christ all shall be made alive" means everu soul will be resurrected to a second life where at that time we will either be granted eternal life or condemned to a Second death which is when the soul is in fact "killed", or condemned to suffer an eternal, perpetual death from which there will be no resurrection (Jeremiah 51:57 KJV).

brrrilliantsteve · Mar 31, 2015

Hi, I was reading this thread with interest last week and was impressed with the honest questioning. Then I was reading for my bible study next week and came across something...

Why don't we just ask Jesus? (what happens to the soul.)

Matthew 26:38 "My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even unto death...".

Phoneman777 · Apr 1, 2015

brrrilliantsteve said:
Hi, I was reading this thread with interest last week and was impressed with the honest questioning. Then I was reading for my bible study next week and came across something...

Why don't we just ask Jesus? (what happens to the soul.)

Matthew 26:38 "My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even unto death...".

Yes, and His brother James agrees in James 5:29 KJV.

ATP said:
Seriously??? So the proof you are looking for is that they should be able to talk to you after they die?? Grasping at straws are we?

Please read again. How are you missing this? There is additional evidence that the soul leaves the body at death. Several of the resurrection stories in the Bible describe the soul as returning to the body. This implies, of course, that the soul had left in the first place. First, there is the example of Elijah raising the widow’s son from the dead. “And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again. 22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived” (1 Kings 17:21-22). This passage specifically says that the child’s soul “came into him again.”

Also read 2 Tim 4:6 For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time for my departure is near.

What I mean is that after their resurrection, not a single person had anything to say about what was happening when they died. Lazarus didn't come out of the tomb and say, "Man, Jesus, why did you drag me back down to this rotten place?". The reason why not a single resurrected person had anything to say about what they were experiencing while they were dead is because, "The dead know not anything."

ATP · Apr 1, 2015

Phoneman777 said:
Yes, and His brother James agrees in James 5:29 KJV.

What I mean is that after their resurrection, not a single person had anything to say about what was happening when they died. Lazarus didn't come out of the tomb and say, "Man, Jesus, why did you drag me back down to this rotten place?". The reason why not a single resurrected person had anything to say about what they were experiencing while they were dead is because, "The dead know not anything."

I agree with you.
My beliefs on soul sleep have changed since 2/2/15.

James 5:29?

JimParker · Apr 2, 2015

Born_Again said:
<<...how does one explain if someone can recall things that did not involve them or happened years before they were born?>>

Imagination.

I not only had past life recollections but also future life recolections. Then I answered Jesus call to follow Him and all that BS went away.

The battlefield of salvation and perdition is the mind.

Phoneman777 · Apr 12, 2015

ATP said:
I agree with you.
My beliefs on soul sleep have changed since 2/2/15.
James 5:29?

Just seeing if you were paying attention. (you're not buying that, are you? LOL) I meant James 5:20 KJV

ATP · Apr 12, 2015

Phoneman777 said:
Just seeing if you were paying attention. (you're not buying that, are you? LOL) I meant James 5:20 KJV

I do believe our soul sleeps until the first resurrection...

The only reason we are alive now is because of the breath of life. When we die the breath of life is taken away.

1. God formed man from the dust
2. God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life
3. Only then did the man become a living being

Gen 2:7 NIV Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

1. and the dust returns to the ground it came from
2. and the breath of life returns to God who gave it

Eccl 12:7 NIV and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Phoneman777 · Apr 15, 2015

ATP said:
I do believe our soul sleeps until the first resurrection...

The only reason we are alive now is because of the breath of life. When we die the breath of life is taken away.

1. God formed man from the dust
2. God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life
3. Only then did the man become a living being

Gen 2:7 NIV Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

1. and the dust returns to the ground it came from
2. and the breath of life returns to God who gave it

Eccl 12:7 NIV and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Amen, "If He sets His heart upon man; if He gathers unto Himself His Spirit and His breath, then all flesh shall perish together and man shall again turn into dust." - Job

williemac · Apr 16, 2015

This interpretaion from Gen. by the Watchtower is the result of an assumption that the passage is meant to be a comprehensive definition of mankind. The above translation proves otherwise in that it states that man became a living 'being'. The emphasis is not meant to be on the word 'became' but on the word 'living'. The point of the passage is that man came to life when God breathed into him.

To define us as being a soul is partially correct. The soul part of us is our mental identity. It in the Greek comes from "psyche". This means the mind. The soul lives in an earthen vessel. In 2Cor.5, Paul figuratively calls it a tent. In that passage he states that if this tent dies, we have another one. Here is the point. We have two bodies; a physical one a spiritual one. The soul needs a body to connect it with its envoirnment, whether here in this life or in the spirit realm after death.

Paul in that same passage said it is possible to be absent from the body. It appears to be a matter of stubbornness in hanging on to a conclusion from Gen. in order to miss the obvious things the bible says in later passages. Absent is a term that is not hard to understand. So what part of us becomes absent from our bodies? The soul. In Math.10:28, Jesus says not to fear those who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Again, the Watchtower puts a meaning to that which no one would come to from that sentence at face value. They simply make it fit their previous conclusion. In taking the Gen. passage so literally, they proceed to refuse to take anything else literally that conflicts with their unfortunate conclusion that the soul includes both body and mind. For example, Paul talks of the whole person being body, soul, and spirit (2Thess.5:23). So what is the spirit? From the three things mentioned in 2Cor.5, (two bodies and we who reside in them,) the spirit must be our spiritual body, the spiritual equivalent to our body of flesh.

There are two deaths in scripture. In the first one, the body dies but not the soul. And in the second one, in Gehenna (Math.10:28), BOTH are destroyed. Again, we have a word that cannot be taken any other way. Both means more than one. It means two things that are not the same thing.

So this is where I actually agree with the Watchtower, that the soul is not immortal. The soul can die. However, I believe that they have the time frame wrong. Their conclusion that the soul dies immediately in the first death denies all the places in scripture and even in near death testimonies, where there is a conscious expereince after death. The bible speaks of outer darkness, weeping and gnashing of teeth, torment (not the same thing as torture), etc.

The story of the rich man and Lazerus is also taken as nothing more than fiction by the Watchtower. They call it an illustration, what we refer to as a parable. However, all parables have in common a plausible scenario that is given to help us understand a spiritual one. There really can be a lost coin, a buried treasure. So how is it that Jesus breaks the pattern and gives a completely ficticious scenario of people alive in Hades? The answer: He doesn't. And neither is the story of the medium who brings back the prophet to speak to Saul. Samuel asks Saul why he would disturb his rest. The bible makes no attempt to invalidate this as a real event. It is only those who can't accept it because it conflicts with their doctrine, who insist this is not a real event.

I find it sad that a J.W. is forced to accept everything they are told even though they might insist that they can question what they are told. In the end they buy the answer they are given, no matter how incredulous it may be to both logic and scripture. I know this from countless meetings and discussions I have had with more than a few of them in the past.

As a side note, the comparison of death to sleep is interesting. I slept last night. My body was completely unconscious. But my subconscoius was working full time in my dreams.

BTW, my spell check is not working. My apology if there is a typo or two. cheers.

Phoneman777 · Apr 16, 2015

williemac said:
This interpretaion from Gen. by the Watchtower is the result of an assumption that the passage is meant to be a comprehensive definition of mankind. The above translation proves otherwise in that it states that man became a living 'being'. The emphasis is not meant to be on the word 'became' but on the word 'living'. The point of the passage is that man came to life when God breathed into him.

To define us as being a soul is partially correct. The soul part of us is our mental identity. It in the Greek comes from "psyche". This means the mind. The soul lives in an earthen vessel. In 2Cor.5, Paul figuratively calls it a tent. In that passage he states that if this tent dies, we have another one. Here is the point. We have two bodies; a physical one a spiritual one. The soul needs a body to connect it with its envoirnment, whether here in this life or in the spirit realm after death.

Paul in that same passage said it is possible to be absent from the body. It appears to be a matter of stubbornness in hanging on to a conclusion from Gen. in order to miss the obvious things the bible says in later passages. Absent is a term that is not hard to understand. So what part of us becomes absent from our bodies? The soul. In Math.10:28, Jesus says not to fear those who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Again, the Watchtower puts a meaning to that which no one would come to from that sentence at face value. They simply make it fit their previous conclusion. In taking the Gen. passage so literally, they proceed to refuse to take anything else literally that conflicts with their unfortunate conclusion that the soul includes both body and mind. For example, Paul talks of the whole person being body, soul, and spirit (2Thess.5:23). So what is the spirit? From the three things mentioned in 2Cor.5, (two bodies and we who reside in them,) the spirit must be our spiritual body, the spiritual equivalent to our body of flesh.

There are two deaths in scripture. In the first one, the body dies but not the soul. And in the second one, in Gehenna (Math.10:28), BOTH are destroyed. Again, we have a word that cannot be taken any other way. Both means more than one. It means two things that are not the same thing.

So this is where I actually agree with the Watchtower, that the soul is not immortal. The soul can die. However, I believe that they have the time frame wrong. Their conclusion that the soul dies immediately in the first death denies all the places in scripture and even in near death testimonies, where there is a conscious expereince after death. The bible speaks of outer darkness, weeping and gnashing of teeth, torment (not the same thing as torture), etc.

The story of the rich man and Lazerus is also taken as nothing more than fiction by the Watchtower. They call it an illustration, what we refer to as a parable. However, all parables have in common a plausible scenario that is given to help us understand a spiritual one. There really can be a lost coin, a buried treasure. So how is it that Jesus breaks the pattern and gives a completely ficticious scenario of people alive in Hades? The answer: He doesn't. And neither is the story of the medium who brings back the prophet to speak to Saul. Samuel asks Saul why he would disturb his rest. The bible makes no attempt to invalidate this as a real event. It is only those who can't accept it because it conflicts with their doctrine, who insist this is not a real event.

I find it sad that a J.W. is forced to accept everything they are told even though they might insist that they can question what they are told. In the end they buy the answer they are given, no matter how incredulous it may be to both logic and scripture. I know this from countless meetings and discussions I have had with more than a few of them in the past.

As a side note, the comparison of death to sleep is interesting. I slept last night. My body was completely unconscious. But my subconscoius was working full time in my dreams.

BTW, my spell check is not working. My apology if there is a typo or two. cheers.

If the JW teach that the "Body + Breath = Living Soul", then they are correct because that is exactly what Scripture teaches - that a Living Soul only exists as a consequence of the union of a body and breath of life (Genesis 2:7 KJV).

If they teach "Body - Breath = Dead Soul" which has ceased to exist, they are also correct by means of the aforementioned reason. The plain interpretation of Genesis 2:7 KJV needs no alteration, only our pagan ideas of "consciousness in death" that are contrary to Scripture: "The living know that they shall die but the dead know not anything." (Ecclesiastes 9:6 KJV) This teaching will safeguard anyone from demonic impersonation of our loved ones who are asleep, awaiting the resurrection, aka "the blessed hope". I hope to see you there!

ATP · Apr 16, 2015

williemac said:
This interpretaion from Gen. by the Watchtower is the result of an assumption that the passage is meant to be a comprehensive definition of mankind. The above translation proves otherwise in that it states that man became a living 'being'. The emphasis is not meant to be on the word 'became' but on the word 'living'. The point of the passage is that man came to life when God breathed into him.

To define us as being a soul is partially correct. The soul part of us is our mental identity. It in the Greek comes from "psyche". This means the mind. The soul lives in an earthen vessel. In 2Cor.5, Paul figuratively calls it a tent. In that passage he states that if this tent dies, we have another one. Here is the point. We have two bodies; a physical one a spiritual one. The soul needs a body to connect it with its envoirnment, whether here in this life or in the spirit realm after death.

Paul in that same passage said it is possible to be absent from the body. It appears to be a matter of stubbornness in hanging on to a conclusion from Gen. in order to miss the obvious things the bible says in later passages. Absent is a term that is not hard to understand. So what part of us becomes absent from our bodies? The soul. In Math.10:28, Jesus says not to fear those who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Again, the Watchtower puts a meaning to that which no one would come to from that sentence at face value. They simply make it fit their previous conclusion. In taking the Gen. passage so literally, they proceed to refuse to take anything else literally that conflicts with their unfortunate conclusion that the soul includes both body and mind. For example, Paul talks of the whole person being body, soul, and spirit (2Thess.5:23). So what is the spirit? From the three things mentioned in 2Cor.5, (two bodies and we who reside in them,) the spirit must be our spiritual body, the spiritual equivalent to our body of flesh.

There are two deaths in scripture. In the first one, the body dies but not the soul. And in the second one, in Gehenna (Math.10:28), BOTH are destroyed. Again, we have a word that cannot be taken any other way. Both means more than one. It means two things that are not the same thing.

2 Cor 5 usually gets taken out of context. It is actually speaking of the first resurrection.

Notice that 1 Cor 15:50-54 and 2 Cor 5:1-10 both speak of the first resurrection, immortality and being swallowed up.

1 Cor 15:50-54 NIV I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

2 Cor 5:1-10 NIV For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. 6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7For we live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

williemac said:
So this is where I actually agree with the Watchtower, that the soul is not immortal.

Only God the Father is immortal. Immortality is a gift given to us at the first resurrection.

1 Tim 6:16 NIV who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

williemac said:
The story of the rich man and Lazerus is also taken as nothing more than fiction by the Watchtower. They call it an illustration, what we refer to as a parable. However, all parables have in common a plausible scenario that is given to help us understand a spiritual one. There really can be a lost coin, a buried treasure. So how is it that Jesus breaks the pattern and gives a completely ficticious scenario of people alive in Hades? The answer: He doesn't. And neither is the story of the medium who brings back the prophet to speak to Saul. Samuel asks Saul why he would disturb his rest. The bible makes no attempt to invalidate this as a real event. It is only those who can't accept it because it conflicts with their doctrine, who insist this is not a real event.

If the rich man went to hellfire and his body was in the grave and his spirit was in hellfire,
then how does a spirit obtain a finger and a tongue.
Spirit means "breath" and "wind", how does breath and wind obtain these things.
Luke 16:24 NIV So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

- ATP

Phoneman777 · Apr 16, 2015

ATP said:
2 Cor 5 usually gets taken out of context. It is actually speaking of the first resurrection.

Notice that 1 Cor 15:50-54 and 2 Cor 5:1-10 both speak of the first resurrection, immortality and being swallowed up.

1 Cor 15:50-54 NIV I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

2 Cor 5:1-10 NIV For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. 6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7For we live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Only God the Father is immortal. Immortality is a gift given to us at the first resurrection.

1 Tim 6:16 NIV who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

If the rich man went to hellfire and his body was in the grave and his spirit was in hellfire,
then how does a spirit obtain a finger and a tongue.
Spirit means "breath" and "wind", how does breath and wind obtain these things.
Luke 16:24NIV So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

- ATP

Exactly ATP. Among the several glaring inconsistencies in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus (which eliminates any possibility for it being a literal account of two dead men) is the fact that these two are in possession of bodies prior to having been resurrected, either by someone like Elijah, Paul, or by Jesus at His Second Coming.

The fact that the Rich Man is able to speak, know things, remember things, and feel emotion is the opposite of what many Scriptures plainly say regarding the inability of the dead to experience these things.

williemac · Apr 16, 2015

ATP said:
2 Cor 5 usually gets taken out of context. It is actually speaking of the first resurrection.

Notice that 1 Cor 15:50-54 and 2 Cor 5:1-10 both speak of the first resurrection, immortality and being swallowed up.

If the rich man went to hellfire and his body was in the grave and his spirit was in hellfire,
then how does a spirit obtain a finger and a tongue.
Spirit means "breath" and "wind", how does breath and wind obtain these things.
Luke 16:24 NIV So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

- ATP

Spirit means breath and wind? The more accurate way to understand what something is, is to see how the word is used by the authors who use it rather than by trying to limit it to a definition. Lazerus had a finger and a tongue because Jesus said he did. He obviously had a body that was not the same as an earthly, physical one, because it did not feel the pain of being burned by fire, not unlike the four men who were cast into the furnace in Daniel. However, Lazerus was thirsty. That was the nature of his agony. This is common of unclean spirits who are cast out of a person, who Jesus said goes through dry places (Math.12:43). Dryness is a symptom of spiritual unfulfillment. A spiritual body does exist. And it is not like our present body.

As for 2Cor.5, there is no way you can prove from the text that it is speaking of the first resurrection. Paul does not mention resurrection in that passage. In fact, in your own version, it mentions being away from the body (absent). The resurrection is about receiving a new body.

Phoneman777 said:
If the JW teach that the "Body + Breath = Living Soul", then they are correct because that is exactly what Scripture teaches - that a Living Soul only exists as a consequence of the union of a body and breath of life (Genesis 2:7 KJV).

If they teach "Body - Breath = Dead Soul" which has ceased to exist, they are also correct by means of the aforementioned reason. The plain interpretation of Genesis 2:7 KJV needs no alteration, only our pagan ideas of "consciousness in death" that are contrary to Scripture: "The living know that they shall die but the dead know not anything." (Ecclesiastes 9:6 KJV) This teaching will safeguard anyone from demonic impersonation of our loved ones who are asleep, awaiting the resurrection, aka "the blessed hope". I hope to see you there!

I already addressed Genesis 2:7 by advising that one should take into consideration all the places in scripture that are relevant to this subject. Yes, God breathed into the body He created and the body came to life. It became a living being, or soul. But 1Thess:5:23 gives additional information about our makeup, that we consist of body, soul, and spirit. When we can find three words in a sentence, it is only proper grammar in understanding that the three are not the same as one another. So what is not just as plain about that passage?
As far as pagan ideas of consciousness after death, I advise you to refrain from calling the bible pagan. There are more than a few examples of conscoiusness after death, as I have shared. As for Eccl. 9:6, this is easily fulfilled in the second death where both body and soul are destroyed. As for Math.10:28, I advise you to read it more carefully and tell me how it is that one can kill the body but not the soul. FYI, it was a J.W. friend of mine that informed me that the word for hell in that passage is Gehenna, a reference to the lake of fire. This is where God will destroy both body and soul. As well, why did Jesus use the term "both" if they are one and the same?

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