Round Trip or One Way?

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ATP

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williemac said:
Spirit means breath and wind? The more accurate way to understand what something is, is to see how the word is used by the authors who use it rather than by trying to limit it to a definition. Lazerus had a finger and a tongue because Jesus said he did. He obviously had a body that was not the same as an earthly, physical one, because it did not feel the pain of being burned by fire, not unlike the four men who were cast into the furnace in Daniel. However, Lazerus was thirsty. That was the nature of his agony. This is common of unclean spirits who are cast out of a person, who Jesus said goes through dry places (Math.12:43). Dryness is a symptom of spiritual unfulfillment. A spiritual body does exist. And it is not like our present body.
Yes, spirit is translated breath and wind in Hebrew because God breathed the breath of life into us Gen 2:7. The rich man story has nothing to do with the afterlife. It is a story about the demise of the priesthood. He is using picture language that is familiar to the Pharisees. Also, Gehenna and the Lake of Fire is considered hellfire, not Hades.

williemac said:
As for 2Cor.5, there is no way you can prove from the text that it is speaking of the first resurrection. Paul does not mention resurrection in that passage. In fact, in your own version, it mentions being away from the body (absent). The resurrection is about receiving a new body.
Actually, it does. Both passages also mention immortality, being clothed and being swallowed up. Follow the bold..

1 Cor 15:50-54 NIV I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

2 Cor 5:1-10 NIV For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. 6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7For we live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

- ATP

williemac said:
As far as pagan ideas of consciousness after death, I advise you to refrain from calling the bible pagan. There are more than a few examples of conscoiusness after death, as I have shared. As for Eccl. 9:6, this is easily fulfilled in the second death where both body and soul are destroyed.
Eccl 9:6 is referring to all dead people including the second death. The title of Eccl 9 is "A Common Destiny for All".

Eccl 9:6 NIV Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.

williemac said:
But 1Thess:5:23 gives additional information about our makeup, that we consist of body, soul, and spirit. When we can find three words in a sentence, it is only proper grammar in understanding that the three are not the same as one another. So what is not just as plain about that passage?
But one is not in heaven or hell and the other dead in the grave. It doesn't work that way. The only reason we have a spirit and soul is because of the breath of life, and that is taken away at death Eccl 12:7. Spirit and soul cannot function without each other. The only difference between the two is their functions in this life.

williemac said:
As for Math.10:28, I advise you to read it more carefully and tell me how it is that one can kill the body but not the soul. FYI, it was a J.W. friend of mine that informed me that the word for hell in that passage is Gehenna, a reference to the lake of fire. This is where God will destroy both body and soul. As well, why did Jesus use the term "both" if they are one and the same?
The body and soul are different entities, but again the only reason we have a soul is because of the breath of life. And that is taken out at death Eccl 12:7.
 

Phoneman777

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williemac said:
This interpretaion from Gen. by the Watchtower is the result of an assumption that the passage is meant to be a comprehensive definition of mankind. The above translation proves otherwise in that it states that man became a living 'being'. The emphasis is not meant to be on the word 'became' but on the word 'living'. The point of the passage is that man came to life when God breathed into him.

To define us as being a soul is partially correct. The soul part of us is our mental identity. It in the Greek comes from "psyche". This means the mind. The soul lives in an earthen vessel. In 2Cor.5, Paul figuratively calls it a tent. In that passage he states that if this tent dies, we have another one. Here is the point. We have two bodies; a physical one a spiritual one. The soul needs a body to connect it with its envoirnment, whether here in this life or in the spirit realm after death.

Paul in that same passage said it is possible to be absent from the body. It appears to be a matter of stubbornness in hanging on to a conclusion from Gen. in order to miss the obvious things the bible says in later passages. Absent is a term that is not hard to understand. So what part of us becomes absent from our bodies? The soul. In Math.10:28, Jesus says not to fear those who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Again, the Watchtower puts a meaning to that which no one would come to from that sentence at face value. They simply make it fit their previous conclusion. In taking the Gen. passage so literally, they proceed to refuse to take anything else literally that conflicts with their unfortunate conclusion that the soul includes both body and mind. For example, Paul talks of the whole person being body, soul, and spirit (2Thess.5:23). So what is the spirit? From the three things mentioned in 2Cor.5, (two bodies and we who reside in them,) the spirit must be our spiritual body, the spiritual equivalent to our body of flesh.

There are two deaths in scripture. In the first one, the body dies but not the soul. And in the second one, in Gehenna (Math.10:28), BOTH are destroyed. Again, we have a word that cannot be taken any other way. Both means more than one. It means two things that are not the same thing.

So this is where I actually agree with the Watchtower, that the soul is not immortal. The soul can die. However, I believe that they have the time frame wrong. Their conclusion that the soul dies immediately in the first death denies all the places in scripture and even in near death testimonies, where there is a conscious expereince after death. The bible speaks of outer darkness, weeping and gnashing of teeth, torment (not the same thing as torture), etc.

The story of the rich man and Lazerus is also taken as nothing more than fiction by the Watchtower. They call it an illustration, what we refer to as a parable. However, all parables have in common a plausible scenario that is given to help us understand a spiritual one. There really can be a lost coin, a buried treasure. So how is it that Jesus breaks the pattern and gives a completely ficticious scenario of people alive in Hades? The answer: He doesn't. And neither is the story of the medium who brings back the prophet to speak to Saul. Samuel asks Saul why he would disturb his rest. The bible makes no attempt to invalidate this as a real event. It is only those who can't accept it because it conflicts with their doctrine, who insist this is not a real event.

I find it sad that a J.W. is forced to accept everything they are told even though they might insist that they can question what they are told. In the end they buy the answer they are given, no matter how incredulous it may be to both logic and scripture. I know this from countless meetings and discussions I have had with more than a few of them in the past.

As a side note, the comparison of death to sleep is interesting. I slept last night. My body was completely unconscious. But my subconscoius was working full time in my dreams.

BTW, my spell check is not working. My apology if there is a typo or two. cheers.
I have to admit that when I read your argument - that Jesus' other parables were based in real experience and so that demands that the Rich Man and Lazarus be a real experience - I found it very compelling because somewhere it is written "Consistency, thou art a jewel." *After further review* it seems that the idea of consistency that you believe supports your view actually overthrows it:

If Jesus meant for His account of the Rich Man and Lazarus to be taken literally, then He would be in violation of His own Scripture and exposed as a fraud, according to Isaiah 8:20 KJV. It would be most inconsistent for Jesus to claim His story in Luke 16 is based in reality after He had claimed the exact opposite about the dead in the rest of Scripture:

According to such Scripture, the dead know nothing, feel no emotions, have nothing anymore to do with us, possess no memories, knowledge, or wisdom, do not lay plans (Ecclesiastes 9:5-10 KJV)

...and in the Psalms:
  • do not praise God (Psalm 115:17 KJV) (Psalm 88:11 KJV)
  • possess no thoughts (Psalm 146:4 KJV)
  • are asleep (Psalm 13:3 KJV)
  • possess no memories (Psalm 88:12 KJV)
...and in Job:
  • will remain in the grave and not awake until the heavens be no more after His wrath is finished (Job 14:12 KJV) (Job 14:13 KJV)
  • will remain without a body in the grave until the resurrection (Job 17:13 KJV) (Job 19:26 KJV) (Job 14:14 KJV)
  • do not perceive the affairs of loved ones yet alive (Job 14:21 KJV)
...and through Paul:
  • receive a body only at the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:51-54 KJV)
But, if the Rich Man and Lazarus is indeed symbolic, then He remains in harmony with the rest of Scripture.
 

williemac

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Phoneman777 said:
I have to admit that when I read your argument - that Jesus' other parables were based in real experience and so that demands that the Rich Man and Lazarus be a real experience - I found it very compelling because somewhere it is written "Consistency, thou art a jewel." *After further review* it seems that the idea of consistency that you believe supports your view actually overthrows it:

If Jesus meant for His account of the Rich Man and Lazarus to be taken literally, then He would be in violation of His own Scripture and exposed as a fraud, according to Isaiah 8:20 KJV. It would be most inconsistent for Jesus to claim His story in Luke 16 is based in reality after He had claimed the exact opposite about the dead in the rest of Scripture:

According to such Scripture, the dead know nothing, feel no emotions, have nothing anymore to do with us, possess no memories, knowledge, or wisdom, do not lay plans (Ecclesiastes 9:5-10 KJV)

...and in the Psalms:
  • do not praise God (Psalm 115:17 KJV) (Psalm 88:11 KJV)
  • possess no thoughts (Psalm 146:4 KJV)
  • are asleep (Psalm 13:3 KJV)
  • possess no memories (Psalm 88:12 KJV)
...and in Job:
  • will remain in the grave and not awake until the heavens be no more after His wrath is finished (Job 14:12 KJV) (Job 14:13 KJV)
  • will remain without a body in the grave until the resurrection (Job 17:13 KJV) (Job 19:26 KJV) (Job 14:14 KJV)
  • do not perceive the affairs of loved ones yet alive (Job 14:21 KJV)
...and through Paul:
  • receive a body only at the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:51-54 KJV)
But, if the Rich Man and Lazarus is indeed symbolic, then He remains in harmony with the rest of Scripture.
You must have missed my comment on these passages, that they are a matter of the time frame. Jesus said in Math.10:28, that it is possible for the body to be killed but not the soul. In that same passage He continues to say that BOTH are destroyed in Gehenna, the lake of fire. This is when those passages of your sharing will be fulfilled. There is no conflict.
There is a scrptural based separation between physical body and soul. In 2Cor.5, Paul said we HAVE a spiritual body that we live in after the physical one is dead...not we WILL have. This was the state of Lazerus and the rich man. If the soul includes both body and mind, then Paul was confused in his teaching that it is possilbe for "us" to live in a tent (body). If one part is living inside the other, they are not the same part. They are not one thing, but two. Live with it, my friend. It is obvious.
The resurrected body is not the same. It is an entirely different one than either mentioned in 2Cor.5. It is the same kind that Jesus had when He was raised. He could function both in the physical realm and the spiriutal realm in that body (passing through walls, appearing and disappearing, etc). The truth is that there was only one dimension in the days of Eden. Now there are two, when God separated mankind from the garden. But in the new heaven and earth it will go back to just one. (symbolized by the New jerusalem comng down to earth). Therefore the body we live in will be compatible with that one realm. This is the point of the resurrection. It's purpose is to complete the process. Resurrection is not about coming back to life, it is about coming back to a former place.
Death will indeed happen for some as you describe from scripture. But that does not occur until the final judgment. In John 6:50,51, Jesus gives two possible destinies: to die or live forever. Are you sure you will live forever? Can you say you expect to live forever? I can. What do you say?
 

williemac

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ATP said:
He is not saying that. Re-read post 61.
OK, I re-read it. Paul said we have it. He is using figurative language. The building we have is an eternal house in heaven if our earthly one is destroyed. But I would like to address this comment of yours from that post " The only reason we have a spirit and soul is because of the breath of life,"
The passage you refer to is in Genesis. It shows a sequence of creation of man. First God formed him from the dust of the ground. Then He breathed into this lifeless body and it came to life. Man became a "living" being,(a "living" soul.). This is not a definition, but rather a description. Man is defined as spirit, soul, and body. When the breath of life is taken away, the body, which originally came to life, will die. Therefore as I shared from Math.10:28, Jesus advised not to fear those who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul. In plain language of today, if a man shoots me, my body will indeed die. But he has no ability to kill my soul. Killing the one does not automatically make the other one dead also. I don't know how much more plain the language can get in that passage to demonstrate this fact. Sure, the breath of life is taken from the body at that point. But not the soul. Only God can do that. That is why we are told to fear Him and not anyone else. And as the passage indicates, this will not take place until the final judgment. If you do your homework as my long ago J.W. friend did, you will find what she found, that hell in that passage comes from the word "Gehenna". A specific reference to the lake of fire.

The sequence of death is as follows. In the first death, the natural body dies only. In the second death, BOTH body and soul are destroyed.
 

ATP

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williemac said:
Killing the one does not automatically make the other one dead also.
You're just forgetting one thing brother. Immortality.

Only God is immortal, and immortality is a gift given to believers at the first resurrection. 1 Cor 15:50-54 NIV.

Immortal / adjective
1. not mortal; not liable or subject to death; undying: our immortal souls.
2. not liable to perish or decay; imperishable; everlasting.
3. perpetual; lasting; constant: an immortal enemy.

Mortal / adjective
1. subject to death; having a transitory life: all mortal creatures.
2. of or relating to human beings as subject to death; human: this mortal life.
3. belonging to this world.
4. causing or liable to cause death; fatal: a mortal wound.

The word perish, decay and death only relates to nonbelievers..

John 3:16 NIV For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Acts 2:27 NIV because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, you will not let your holy one see decay.
Rev 20:14 NIV Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

The word imperishable and everlasting only relates to believers..

Matt 25:46 NIV "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

1 Cor 15:50-54 NIV I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

Immortality is a gift, given to us by the Father..

Gen 3:21-24 NIV The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

1 Tim 6:16 NIV who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

williemac said:
The sequence of death is as follows. In the first death, the natural body dies only. In the second death, BOTH body and soul are destroyed.
I agree here. Eternal conscious torment is not biblical.
 

williemac

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ATP said:
You're just forgetting one thing brother. Immortality.

Only God is immortal, and immortality is a gift given to believers at the first resurrection. 1 Cor 15:50-54 NIV.

Immortal / adjective
1. not mortal; not liable or subject to death; undying: our immortal souls.
2. not liable to perish or decay; imperishable; everlasting.
3. perpetual; lasting; constant: an immortal enemy.

Mortal / adjective
1. subject to death; having a transitory life: all mortal creatures.
2. of or relating to human beings as subject to death; human: this mortal life.
3. belonging to this world.
4. causing or liable to cause death; fatal: a mortal wound.

The word perish, decay and death only relates to nonbelievers..

John 3:16 NIV For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Acts 2:27 NIV because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, you will not let your holy one see decay.
Rev 20:14 NIV Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

The word imperishable and everlasting only relates to believers..

Matt 25:46 NIV "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

1 Cor 15:50-54 NIV I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

Immortality is a gift, given to us by the Father..

Gen 3:21-24 NIV The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

1 Tim 6:16 NIV who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.


I agree here. Eternal conscious torment is not biblical.
My friend. Ar first you tell me that I'm forgetting only God is immortal and then you agree with me when I say that man is not immortal (re:eternal conscious torment). Your post has totally ignored what I have been sharing about the two biblical versions of death. The first is where only the physical body dies, but not the soul. The second is where they are both destroyed. This does not conflict in any way, shape, or form, the truth of man's mortality. The soul, being a separate part of us from the body, is mortal and can die. But as per the commentary from Jesus Himself in Math.10:28, the two don't automatically die together. In relation to this life and age, a person can die and be considered dead, because his life on earth has ended and he has nothing more to do or say concerning it. This is physical death. But what about the soul?

Jesus has spoken of an outer darkness. He has spoken of weeping and gnashing of teeth. As well, there are caseloads of examples where men of God died and went to rest with their fathers. Even Samuel, when brought back by a medium to speak with Saul, complained about his rest being disturbed. If this kind of rest is unconscious, then the mere mention of it is redundant and unnecessary.

So as I shared before, the story of the rich man and Lazerus must be taken as real. It defies all logic and prior example for Jesus to just make up a scenario that He would have known to be impossible. Even the lesson from it would defy any reasonable use. The lesson is that even if a person should come back from the dead to warn certain men, they would not listen. If this was total fiction, then what would be the point or even the topic of the warning? Think about it.
 

ATP

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williemac said:
So as I shared before, the story of the rich man and Lazerus must be taken as real. It defies all logic and prior example for Jesus to just make up a scenario that He would have known to be impossible. Even the lesson from it would defy any reasonable use. The lesson is that even if a person should come back from the dead to warn certain men, they would not listen. If this was total fiction, then what would be the point or even the topic of the warning? Think about it.
If the rich man story is taken as real, then let's take a look at some questions..

1. If this story is not about the demise of the priesthood, then why does verse 19 use priestly garments to describe the rich man with purple clothing and fine linen? (Luke 16:19 NIV “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.)

2. Why does Jesus use Hades as hellfire in only this passage and the rest of the Bible uses Gehenna and the Lake of Fire as hellfire? Is it possible that He could be using Hades as figurative picture language here? (Luke 16:23 NIV In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.)

3. If the rich man died his spirit would have to be in hell. Spirit is translated breath and wind in Hebrew and Greek. So how would breath and wind obtain a finger and a tongue? (Luke 16:24 NIV So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’)

4. We see here in Luke 16:24-31 NIV that the rich man is having a personal conversation in hell. Even though he died he is aware of things, but Eccl 9:5 and Eccl 9:10 specifically states that the dead know nothing and they can neither plan or have knowledge or wisdom. (Eccl 9:5 NIV For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.) (Eccl 9:10 NIV Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.)

Luke 16:24-31 NIV So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ 25“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ 27“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ 30“ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”
 

Phoneman777

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williemac said:
You must have missed my comment on these passages, that they are a matter of the time frame. Jesus said in Math.10:28, that it is possible for the body to be killed but not the soul. In that same passage He continues to say that BOTH are destroyed in Gehenna, the lake of fire. This is when those passages of your sharing will be fulfilled. There is no conflict.
There is a scrptural based separation between physical body and soul. In 2Cor.5, Paul said we HAVE a spiritual body that we live in after the physical one is dead...not we WILL have. This was the state of Lazerus and the rich man. If the soul includes both body and mind, then Paul was confused in his teaching that it is possilbe for "us" to live in a tent (body). If one part is living inside the other, they are not the same part. They are not one thing, but two. Live with it, my friend. It is obvious.
The resurrected body is not the same. It is an entirely different one than either mentioned in 2Cor.5. It is the same kind that Jesus had when He was raised. He could function both in the physical realm and the spiriutal realm in that body (passing through walls, appearing and disappearing, etc). The truth is that there was only one dimension in the days of Eden. Now there are two, when God separated mankind from the garden. But in the new heaven and earth it will go back to just one. (symbolized by the New jerusalem comng down to earth). Therefore the body we live in will be compatible with that one realm. This is the point of the resurrection. It's purpose is to complete the process. Resurrection is not about coming back to life, it is about coming back to a former place.
Death will indeed happen for some as you describe from scripture. But that does not occur until the final judgment. In John 6:50,51, Jesus gives two possible destinies: to die or live forever. Are you sure you will live forever? Can you say you expect to live forever? I can. What do you say?
If you stick to the blueprint of life, then all other verses are easily understood:

"God formed man of the dust of the ground (Body), and breathed into his nostrils the Breath of Life (Spirit), and man (Hb. "Dust of the ground") became a Living Soul." Genesis 2:7 KJV

"And so the dust shall return to the earth as it was and the spirit shall return to the God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV

According to these verses, a "Soul" exists only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Spirit and the soul passes out of existence when the union is broken.

All Jesus is saying is that the First Death is not the "destruction" of the soul (though it passes out of existence according to the above verses) for it will rise again to a "Second Life" in one or the other resurrections, and it is only then that a wicked soul will suffer "destruction" in the Second Death, or a permanent state of non-existence from which there will be no resurrection.

ATP said:
If the rich man story is taken as real, then let's take a look at some questions..

1. If this story is not about the demise of the priesthood, then why does verse 19 use priestly garments to describe the rich man with purple clothing and fine linen? (Luke 16:19 NIV “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.)

2. Why does Jesus use Hades as hellfire in only this passage and the rest of the Bible uses Gehenna and the Lake of Fire as hellfire? Is it possible that He could be using Hades as figurative picture language here? (Luke 16:23 NIV In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.)

3. If the rich man died his spirit would have to be in hell. Spirit is translated breath and wind in Hebrew and Greek. So how would breath and wind obtain a finger and a tongue? (Luke 16:24 NIV So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’)

4. We see here in Luke 16:24-31 NIV that the rich man is having a personal conversation in hell. Even though he died he is aware of things, but Eccl 9:5 and Eccl 9:10 specifically states that the dead know nothing and they can neither plan or have knowledge or wisdom. (Eccl 9:5 NIV For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.) (Eccl 9:10 NIV Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.)

Luke 16:24-31 NIV So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ 25“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ 27“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ 30“ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”
You are correct, ATP, if Jesus meant to teach that the Rich Man and Lazarus was not a parable to be interpreted, then the events He portrays in that story are in violation of the other Scriptures that He Himself inspired the other Bible writers to say about the state of the dead, including what Job said about his "change" (mortal body to immortal body - 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 KJV) that would come when the Lord would call him forth from the grave (Jesus' voice calls forth the dead at the Second Coming- John 5:28-29 KJV).
 

ATP

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Phoneman777 said:
You are correct, ATP, if Jesus meant to teach that the Rich Man and Lazarus was not a parable to be interpreted, then the events He portrays in that story are in violation of the other Scriptures that He Himself inspired the other Bible writers to say about the state of the dead, including what Job said about his "change" (mortal body to immortal body - 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 KJV) that would come when the Lord would call him forth from the grave (Jesus' voice calls forth the dead at the Second Coming- John 5:28-29 KJV).
We know that Luke 16:19 described clothing of the rich,
but can we prove the priesthood also lived in luxury? The answer is yes.
The priesthood is equated to living in luxury and wealth..

The priesthood lived in luxury well beyond that of the average man. They supported their lavish lifestyles with a temple tax which every Jew was required to pay. Richard Horsley in his book “The Message and the Kingdom” describes what archeologists have discovered about the living conditions of the priesthood.

“…impressive archeological remains of their Jerusalem residences show how elegant their life style had become. In spacious structures unhesitantly dubbed ‘mansions” by the archeologists who uncovered them in the 1970’s, we can get a glimpse of a lavish life in mosaic floored reception rooms and dining rooms with elaborate painted and carved stucco wall decorations and with a wealth of fine tableware, glassware, carved stone table tops, and other interior furnishings and elegant peristyles.”

The priests lived lavish lifestyles while the average Jewish peasant struggled to survive. The temple taxes combined with taxes imposed by Herod and Rome were literally threatening the existence of the Jewish people. The people of the land were carrying a burden they could scarcely bear or tolerate. Palestine had become a powder keg waiting to ignite.
 

Phoneman777

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ATP said:
We know that Luke 16:19 described clothing of the rich,
but can we prove the priesthood also lived in luxury? The answer is yes.
The priesthood is equated to living in luxury and wealth..

The priesthood lived in luxury well beyond that of the average man. They supported their lavish lifestyles with a temple tax which every Jew was required to pay. Richard Horsley in his book “The Message and the Kingdom” describes what archeologists have discovered about the living conditions of the priesthood.

“…impressive archeological remains of their Jerusalem residences show how elegant their life style had become. In spacious structures unhesitantly dubbed ‘mansions” by the archeologists who uncovered them in the 1970’s, we can get a glimpse of a lavish life in mosaic floored reception rooms and dining rooms with elaborate painted and carved stucco wall decorations and with a wealth of fine tableware, glassware, carved stone table tops, and other interior furnishings and elegant peristyles.”

The priests lived lavish lifestyles while the average Jewish peasant struggled to survive. The temple taxes combined with taxes imposed by Herod and Rome were literally threatening the existence of the Jewish people. The people of the land were carrying a burden they could scarcely bear or tolerate. Palestine had become a powder keg waiting to ignite.
Absolutely. The Rich Man represents the Jewish people led by the priesthood who daily ate sumptuously at the table of God filled with the blessings, covenants, promises, and lively oracles while Lazarus represents the outsider Gentile "dogs" desiring the falling crumbs like the woman who begged Jesus to heal her demon possessed daughter as she plead, "Truth Lord, yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their master's table!" These foolish Jews were casting aside the blessings and allowing them to fall off the table as they shut out the Gentiles from God, but the "tables were turned" on them when the Comforter came to those who accepted the same Messiah that the Jews rejected and are now tormented by the "wrath (which) has come upon them to the uttermost", according to Paul, as one atrocity after the other has marked the existence of the Jewish people since.