The Church age and the rapture.

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rant

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I would rather present this as further evidence for a Pre Trib Rapture of the Church. To show that there is plenty of Scriptural support for the Rapture of the Church coming before the Seven year Tribulation. The Book of Revelation in chapters 4 & 5 have some very enlightening verses in them as it concerns, the Rapture of the Church, the Heavenly scene, and the Judgment that follows. Most bible commentaries would agree that chapter 3 closes out the Church age, as it is seen in history. Then to start chapter 4, it says, "AFTER THIS (or after the Church age) I looked, and, behold, a DOOR opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a TRUMPET TALKING with me; which said, COME UP hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter". So after the Church age, it is (John the Beloved) who sees what will happen after the Church is caught up!In Rev 4:1 John the Beloved, sees a DOOR opened in Heaven. In the Gospel of John 10:1 Jesus talks about the DOOR into the Sheepfold...then in verse 9, Jesus says, He is the DOOR, and in verse 11, Jesus says he is the Good Shepard. It is interesting that it is the same Greek word for, DOOR (yura thura) that is used in Rev 4:1 as John used for the Door into the sheepfold in John 10:1. John is caught up through the DOOR into the Sheepfold, and John sees everything as a Type of the Church in Chapter 4. In John 10:3 Jesus says,.."and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out"...for the sheep know his voice. John is caught up through the Sheepfold Door as he hears a voice of a Trumpet. This is a beautiful picture of the Rapture of the church as it is shown in, 1 Cor 15:51-52, 1 Thess 4:16-18 and Heb 12:18-23, Rev 1:10-11.The word, Church or Churches, mysteriously disappears from the Revelation after 3:22 and is not mentioned again until Rev 22:16 and then, it only references back to what the Angel was going to tell John in the first 3 chapters concerning "these things in the Churches". Too many people are trying to put the Church into all of Revelations when the fact is the Church is NOT mentioned or seen on earth during the Seven Seals of Judgment. Don Mills
 

Jonous

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I would rather present this as further evidence for a Pre Trib Rapture of the Church. To show that there is plenty of Scriptural support for the Rapture of the Church coming before the Seven year Tribulation. The Book of Revelation in chapters 4 & 5 have some very enlightening verses in them as it concerns, the Rapture of the Church, the Heavenly scene, and the Judgment that follows. Most bible commentaries would agree that chapter 3 closes out the Church age, as it is seen in history. Then to start chapter 4, it says, "AFTER THIS (or after the Church age) I looked, and, behold, a DOOR opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a TRUMPET TALKING with me; which said, COME UP hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter". So after the Church age, it is (John the Beloved) who sees what will happen after the Church is caught up!
Amen to that brother! In fact I was studying this exact passage last night, in a book a pastor has written trying to explain the events of Revelation. I think it is not a coincidence I was reading this yesterday and today I see your post
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After John is being described the spiritual situation/condition of the 7 and today the various churches/dogmas of the last days, then he (church-bride) is taken up to heaven at the hearing of the trumpet-like voice saying "Come up hither", and watches what follows.The two prophets later on will hear the same voice calling them and people will see them being taken up high."And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them." Apoc. 11:12And of course the fact that there is no reference to the church after that, as you very well said.Praise God.
 

jkdjr25

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Amen to that brother! In fact I was studying this exact passage last night, in a book a pastor has written trying to explain the events of Revelation. I think it is not a coincidence I was reading this yesterday and today I see your post
smile.gif
After John is being described the spiritual situation/condition of the 7 and today the various churches/dogmas of the last days, then he (church-bride) is taken up to heaven at the hearing of the trumpet-like voice saying "Come up hither", and watches what follows.The two prophets later on will hear the same voice calling them and people will see them being taken up high."And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them." Apoc. 11:12And of course the fact that there is no reference to the church after that, as you very well said.Praise God.
I agree completely. Its nice to see some more pre-Trib rapture believers too.
smile.gif
 

rant

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Hi smart people,if those non pre trib rapture peoples hearts are rigth with Jesus they are coming too ,what a shock for them think about it.
 

whirlwind

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I would rather present this as further evidence for a Pre Trib Rapture of the Church. To show that there is plenty of Scriptural support for the Rapture of the Church coming before the Seven year Tribulation.
There is no 7 year tribulation. There is no rapture of the church before or after the tribulation.....there is no rapture. When Christ comes at His 2nd Advent everyone will be changed but He is coming here.
The Book of Revelation in chapters 4 & 5 have some very enlightening verses in them as it concerns, the Rapture of the Church, the Heavenly scene, and the Judgment that follows. Most bible commentaries would agree that chapter 3 closes out the Church age, as it is seen in history. Then to start chapter 4, it says, "AFTER THIS (or after the Church age) I looked, and, behold, a DOOR opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a TRUMPET TALKING with me; which said, COME UP hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter". So after the Church age, it is (John the Beloved) who sees what will happen after the Church is caught up!
John and John only, was taken IN THE SPIRIT to heaven to be shown what would happen in the end of days. This IS NOT THE CHURCH. The trumpet talking was not one of the 7 trumpets of God. It was a voice that sounded like a trumpet...it was NOT one of the seven trumpets!Please do not take the word of man....read it for yourself. There is no reason for me or Kriss or Jag to continue to argue with you about this....we have done what is required of us. We have planted the seed of truth. We continue because others reading this may be influenced by what you are saying.
In Rev 4:1 John the Beloved, sees a DOOR opened in Heaven. In the Gospel of John 10:1 Jesus talks about the DOOR into the Sheepfold...then in verse 9, Jesus says, He is the DOOR, and in verse 11, Jesus says he is the Good Shepard. It is interesting that it is the same Greek word for, DOOR (yura thura) that is used in Rev 4:1 as John used for the Door into the sheepfold in John 10:1. John is caught up through the DOOR into the Sheepfold, and John sees everything as a Type of the Church in Chapter 4. In John 10:3 Jesus says,.."and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out"...for the sheep know his voice. John is caught up through the Sheepfold Door as he hears a voice of a Trumpet. This is a beautiful picture of the Rapture of the church as it is shown in, 1 Cor 15:51-52, 1 Thess 4:16-18 and Heb 12:18-23, Rev 1:10-11.
Gosh, I hate to say this but what a bunch of tripe! A door is a door, whether it is to heaven, or a sheepfold or to Christ. It is the way to God. It has nothing to do with rapture. John DOES NOT SEE EVERYTHING AS A TYPE OF CHURCH. He is, as explained by GOD, taken in the spirit so he can see what will be, write of it and hopefully save those who love Christ in the end of days with his warnings. A church was not mentioned. Rapture was not mentioned. You are being deceived by a man.Of course His sheep hear His voice but that has NOTHING to do with rapture. It is not a "beautiful picture of the Rapture of the church." Where in the world did the writer get that idea? 1 Corinthians 15:52 is NOT rapture. Paul is describing what will happen when Christ returns at His 2nd Advent. Please read it yourself!1 Thessalonians 4:16 is NOT rapture. Paul is talking about where the dead are. His next letter completely negates any idea about it being a rapture. Please read it yourself!Hebrew 12:18-23 is NOT about rapture. Please read it yourself!Revelation 1:10-11 Please read it yourself! There is nothing there about rapture.
The word, Church or Churches, mysteriously disappears from the Revelation after 3:22 and is not mentioned again until Rev 22:16 and then, it only references back to what the Angel was going to tell John in the first 3 chapters concerning "these things in the Churches". Too many people are trying to put the Church into all of Revelations when the fact is the Church is NOT mentioned or seen on earth during the Seven Seals of Judgment. Don Mills
Not only does the word Church "mysteriously disappear" but the word rapture, "mysteriously" NEVER APPEARS. Mysteriously Christ NEVER MENTIONS ANY SEMBLANCE OF A RAPTURE - NEVER! His disciples ask Him about the end of days and He goes into great detail about what is expected and no where in three gospels does He mention that anyone, including a whole group of folks calling themselves.....The Church, are going to fly away. Instead he tells them what will happen to them...........Please read it and stop listening to men!When the apostles asked Him about the end of days He began by saying:Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them. "Take heed that no man deceive you.Mark 13:5 And Jesus answering them began to say, "Take heed lest any man deceive you:Luke 21:8 And He said, "Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in My name, saying, 'I am Christ,' and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.He began all three gospels with that warning and you are taking the word of a man peddling a pack of lies. Please read those three chapters yourself....all of the chapter, for in them He tells you what is expected of you in the end of days. Do you think He would have left something like the rapture out of that?.........Whirlwind
 

jkdjr25

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I don't particularly feel like arguing with you either. I do think you are wrong and I've stated my case in defense of the Rapture at least ten times now. You may choose not to believe, but don't talk down to someone just because they think differently than you.I've explained my reasoning and I think rant and Jonous feel the same way. I've yet to hear anything aside from scripture verses being tossed about from your side of the argument. I'm not saying that the scriptures aren't relevant, I'm saying that any idea must logically line up with the Bible. I believe that the Rapture does this, for reasons stated in another thread.
 

Jordan

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For those who has no eyes to see, no ears to hear... It is pointless since we can't reach you guys, only YHWH's only begotten Son, Yahshua.John 7:18 - He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.Jag
 

jkdjr25

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Superjag,Never make the mistake of assuming that I'm not a Christian. Actually don't make that mistake about Jonous or rant either.I am bought and saved by the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe in the resurection of Him and His Holy Name. YOU are not my arbiter nor are you the judge of my salvation and I rebuke any attempt made by any man who tries to be.We have ears to hear, we just don't believe in YOUR intrepration of events. I believe that the Bible is the inerrant, infallible, perfect word of the Living God. I believe what it tells me to believe and I am what it says I am and no man may tell me otherwise. I believe in the Rapture of the saints as it is God's nature to spare the righteous His wrath. I've explained this before and refuse to be dragged into a petty debate again. I am the mountain made by God and I will not move.
 

Jordan

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Superjag,Never make the mistake of assuming that I'm not a Christian. Actually don't make that mistake about Jonous or rant either.I am bought and saved by the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe in the resurection of Him and His Holy Name. YOU are not my arbiter nor are you the judge of my salvation and I rebuke any attempt made by any man who tries to be.We have ears to hear, we just don't believe in YOUR intrepration of events. I believe that the Bible is the inerrant, infallible, perfect word of the Living God. I believe what it tells me to believe and I am what it says I am and no man may tell me otherwise. I believe in the Rapture of the saints as it is God's nature to spare the righteous His wrath. I've explained this before and refuse to be dragged into a petty debate again. I am the mountain made by God and I will not move.
I don't even want to be your judge, nor anybody's judge. There is only one Judge, that is God. We only judge by its fruits...whether there are of God of not. (Matthew 7:15-20)I John 4:1 - Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.I hope you realize that God hates it when people wants to fly away !Jag
 

whirlwind

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I don't particularly feel like arguing with you either. I do think you are wrong and I've stated my case in defense of the Rapture at least ten times now. You may choose not to believe, but don't talk down to someone just because they think differently than you.
If you felt I "talked down to you" please forgive me....that was not my intention.
I've explained my reasoning and I think rant and Jonous feel the same way. I've yet to hear anything aside from scripture verses being tossed about from your side of the argument. I'm not saying that the scriptures aren't relevant, I'm saying that any idea must logically line up with the Bible. I believe that the Rapture does this, for reasons stated in another thread.
Please read what you have written....We are arguing from a scriptural point. We are using His Word only. Please consider what has been said..........Whirlwind
 

rant

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Hi jkdjr25 dont sweat it , it looks like the boys first time in their lives have been challenged it may get ugly and they can not take it ,we are not the yes people they are use to.
 

Christina

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RAPTURE IS A THEORY BY MEN IT IS NOT IN GODS WORD. It was never taught by the aspostles it was never taught by Christ. It was never taught in the early church.It is a lie of men and Satan A FALSE DOCTRINE.
 

Christina

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Hi jkdjr25 dont sweat it , it looks like the boys first time in their lives have been challenged it may get ugly and they can not take it ,we are not the yes people they are use to.
What a joke you are gnats we follow the Word of God you follow a theroy by men you can not present scripture you can only spout insults and opinions.Im sure you are all true Christians looking for truth your attitudes pretty much say it all Lets ignore Gods Word and preach Satans false doctrine.This is our doctrine so call God a liar 2 Thessalonians 2The Man of Lawlessness 1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 5Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.Stand Firm 13But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings[c] we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter. 16May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope, 17encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word.
 

jkdjr25

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I challenge that notion with my knowledge of the nature of God. I challenge it with 1 Thess 14-17. I challenge it with the logic born of lining up what I've been saying with Scripture and God's nature. The Holy Spirit would convict me if I was wrong on this and we both know it. Why is it so hard for you to accept that I came to the conclusion I did through much soul searching, prayer, logic and reason? None of those four things are antithesis to one another.
 

rant

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Hi my buddy kriss why do you not tell me what church you go to , why can you not tell me?
 

Christina

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I challenge that notion with my knowledge of the nature of God. I challenge it with 1 Thess 14-17. I challenge it with the logic born of lining up what I've been saying with Scripture and God's nature. The Holy Spirit would convict me if I was wrong on this and we both know it. Why is it so hard for you to accept that I came to the conclusion I did through much soul searching, prayer, logic and reason? None of those four things are antithesis to one another.
Then I suggest you study the word and find out when this happens or are you so smart you do not need to be told2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.Here why dont you study for youselfhttp://www.biblestudygames.com/biblestudie...ofthechurch.htmhttp://www.pbministries.org/Eschatology/mi...us/smith_01.htmhttp://www.out-of-zion.com/rapture.htm
 

jkdjr25

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What a joke you are gnats we follow the Word of God you follow a theroy by men you can not present scripture you can only spout insults and opinions.Im sure you are all true Christians looking for truth your attitudes pretty much say it all Lets ignore Gods Word and preach Satans false doctrine.This is our doctrine so call God a liar 2 Thessalonians 2The Man of Lawlessness 1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 5Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.Stand Firm 13But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings[c] we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter. 16May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope, 17encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word.
My friend you are treading on dangerously thin ice hear. I will NOT be likened to the enemy by some so full of their own intelect that they refuse to reason when invited, genuinely, to do so. You cannot negate my statement that it is God's Perfect Nature that shows He has ALWAYS provided an escape for the righteous in His eyes when He pours out His Divine wrath upon the wicked. I've shown it time and time again yet it is you who refuse to hear it and who refuses to answer a simple question regarding reason. Reason and faith are not enemies. Again Jesus, who is our Saviour, said "come now and let us reason together". God never told us to stop thinking. He never told us not to ask questions, and He surely never told us to berate one another the way you have myself, rant and anyone who believes in the Pre-Trib Rapture. I am a Holy Ghost inspired, Bible Thumping, Pew Jumping, Devil Crushing, Psalm singing, bought and saved by the shed blood of Jesus Christ loving, overcoming child of Almighty God! Praise Him now and into forever and ever that Great I Am. The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. You have not the authority nor place to judge me or the state of my soul, nor the soul of anyone here. ONLY the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the Alpha and the Omega Himself, King of Kings and Lord of Lords may judge me with His Great and Mighty Hand. I am convicted of the Holy Spirit that these things are true and there is no force born of hell or earth that can move the mountain that is my faith and my salvation. I will not be moved and I will stand and testify to the Truth of the Nature of Almighty God. I will testify that He will ALWAYS save His people. He will ALWAYS provide and escape for them because we are SAVED from His righteous and Divine wrath through our convenant with the Lord Jesus Christ. To say that God punishes the righteous alongside the guilty is a heresy of His Mighty and Perfect Name and I will NOT stand by silently as His name is besmirched in that fashion. I say not these things in hate but rather in the loving conviction of the Holy Spirit of that Great I AM. My Lord and my SaviourMay He bless thee and keep thee and may He make His face to shine upon thee. Amen and amen.
 

jkdjr25

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I can't take credit for anything that I write. It is the inspired words of the Holy Spirit moving my hands and thoughts as I type. All praise and glory be unto the Lord God Almighty and His Perfect Nature.
 
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