A Question About The Restrainer

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StanJ

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Cooter said:
I understand why you cannot address any of the points - because you have no answers no alternative. Tell us why Jesus' warning to his followers was so terribly urgent? Or has this too been exported to the future? Typical Futurist defense - Denial with no scriptural backing whatsoever. Everything I said was historical fact by mostly eyewitnesses. The words of Jesus, Paul, and Daniel were all put together logically and every word can be accounted for. Futurists cannot and never will go through scripture word for word line for line and give a coherent, historically accurate, and common sense interpretation. Instead they back up their belief system with "Proof texts" which are hardly ever consistent with the context from which they were "cherry picked" from.
I answered you Cooter. I posted a link that addressed this issue about Jesus' Revelation being fulfilled. You would have seen that had you read the link.
What happened in 70AD had nothing to do with Revelation, but feel free to point them out ONE at a time and I'll deal with them.
As John received Jesus' Revelation AFTER 70 AD, 96 to be exact, it obviously cannot have been fulfilled yet. Immanency in the NT is common, but does NOT indicate it IS in real time. Remember NO MAN KNOWS. BTW, I didn't see a whole lot of PROOF texts in your post, just assertions.
Cooter said:
Case in point: the "Antichrist" - there is no such individual mentioned in scripture. And yet Futurists insist on his (Future) existence. Futurists will never bother to study the complete books of John 1 and 2. Nor are they able or willing to go through the text word for word and line for line because there is NOTHING there to support their sensational and exciting belief system. Lets see you do it! You will not because it is not possible without disproving your standard adopted belief system. John defines the "antichrist" (translated small "a" because it is not a proper noun - it is not a single entity) as those who were once a part of the church (thrown out or having left) who were teaching that Jesus did not come in the flesh and then died for all of humanity. This is the major tenant of Christianity - without this Christianity would not exist.) He calls them liars and deceivers - and they were plural and not singular.These were the Gnostics of the first century and John who was a custodian of the truth of the Gospel according to Jesus was telling his followers to beware of their false doctrines. Nowhere does it say that this "antichrist" is a single person, and nowhere does it say that it is some boogeyman outside of the Christian faith. Nor does it say that this one lone boogeyman will not be manifest until some distant future. There is no entity in the 21st century or beyond that is scripturally defined as "Antichrist."
John mentions the antichrist four times in his epistles. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, the antichrist is described as the "man of sin," or "son of perdition." Here Paul, like John, is also warning believers about the antichrist's ability to deceive:
"Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."
The NIV makes it clearer that a time of rebellion will come prior to Christ's return and then the "man of lawlessness, the man doomed to destruction" will be revealed. The antichrist eventually will exalt himself above God to be worshiped in the Lord's Temple, proclaiming himself to be God. Verses 9 and 10 say that the antichrist will do counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, to gain a following and deceive many.
In the Gospels (Mark 13, Matthew 24-25, and Luke 21), Jesus warned his followers of the terrible events and persecution that will occur before his second coming. Most likely, this is where the concept of an antichrist was first introduced to the disciples, although Jesus does not refer to him in the singular:
"For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect." Matthew 24:24

You are right in that cherry picking some verses and not taking all the Bible into account can lead one to an erroneous understanding of the future.
Cooter said:
I am not a Preterist - I am always accused of being one because I recognize that the majority of prophesy has been fulfilled historically. You cannot show me on the web or anywhere else where my post is "Preterist." All of my writing comes out of endless hours of personal Bible study and not out of somebody's video, book. or internet source.
Well that's a plus I guess. What you recognize and what is FACT, are NOT necessarily the same thing, but feel free to corroborate your POV from scripture.

I'm sure many Preterists said the same thing, as did many false teachers. Let's just focus on the Word of God and HOW it is able to support you POV or not.
 

Guestman

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The apostle Paul did not specifically state who the restrainer is, but this can be ascertained from both his words at 2 Thessalonians 2 and Jesus illustration at Matthew 13. So why didn't Paul just come out and say it as the original post asks ?

Because the Bible is written in a very specific way, as Jesus said in prayer to the Father: "I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things ("sacred secrets of the Kingdom" or "mysteries of the kingdom", Matt 13:11) from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children. Yes, O Father, because this is the way you approved".(Matt 11:25, 26)

The Bible is a "closed book" to most, for Jehovah God inspired it in such a way that most cannot grasp its teachings, unable to assemble it like a picture puzzle. Jesus, in speaking about the "sacred secrets of the Kingdom" through a series of illustrations, used the Greek word syniemi some 6 times, that literally means to "mentally put the pieces together".(Matt 13: 13, 14, 15, 19, 23, 51)

Only "young children" ("babes", KJV) or those who allow themselves to be taught by Jehovah God will ever be able to unlock what the Bible really teaches, including what the apostle Paul wrote to the Thessalonians concerning apostasy.

Because most who profess to be Christian reject or set aside the one true God, Jehovah, then what Jesus said could not be fulfilled in them. Concerning the "woman" at Isaiah 54, Jesus, quoting from verse 13, said that "It is written in the Prophets: ' They (her "sons") will all be taught by Jehovah.' Everyone who has listened to the Father (Jehovah God) and learned comes to me".(John 6:45)

Thus, only those who are "taught by Jehovah" are able to understand the content and meaning of the Bible, which means grasping what Paul meant by the one who "is acting as a restraint" to the apostasy that began proliferating after the apostles died.

At Proverbs 25, it says that "it is the glory of God to keep a matter secret, and the glory of kings is to search through a matter. As the heavens are high and the earth is deep, so the heart of kings is unsearchable."(Prov 25:2, 3) God reveals the understanding of his written word through these "kings", those anointed with holy spirit for the "heavenly calling".(Heb 3:1) Jesus was more specific when he said that during our time frame, that he appointed "a faithful and discreet slave" to give members of the "household....meat in due season" (Matt 24:45), unlocking the mysteries of the Bible.

Paul said told the Ephesian older men in about 56 C.E., that "I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves".(Acts 20:29, 30)

The apostolic influence that acted as a restraint against this foretold apostasy, continued until the death of John in about 100 C.E. The rapid influx of apostate ideas and false doctrines and practices began to gain a serious foothold even before John's death, for in writing his three letters, said: "Young children, it is the last hour (before apostasy took firm hold), and just as have heard (John had been warning them that it was coming) that the antichrists (those who have twisted who Jesus really is) is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared, from which fact that it is the last hour (that a firm stand can be taken by the apostles, before apostasy begins to flourish, teaching false religious doctrines and practices)".

So, after John died, none of the so-called apostolic successors (such as the "Apostolic Fathers" or early "Church Fathers") showed any of the restraining influence and strength of the apostles. Rather, many contributed to the foretold apostasy.

For example, contrary to the practice instituted by Jesus at the Lord’s Evening Meal, known also as the Last Supper, the author of The Didache (or Teaching of the Twelve Apostles in which some historians date it before or about the year 100 C.E. Its author is unknown) advised the passing of the wine before the bread. (Matthew 26:26, 27)

This writer also stated that if no body of water was available to perform baptism by immersion, pouring water on the head of the baptism candidate would suffice, though Jesus showed that a person was to be totally "dipped under" the water.(Mark 1:9, 10; Acts 8:36, 38) The same text encouraged Christians to observe such rituals as obligatory fasting twice a week and recitation of the Our Father exactly three times a day, which Jesus did not establish.(Matthew 6:5-13; Luke 18:12)

For his part, Ignatius (who was alive during the time of the apostle John) envisioned a new organization of the Christian congregation (or "church"), with just one bishop presiding “in the place of God.”(The Anti-Nicene Fathers: Translations of the Writings of the Fathers down to Down to A. D. 325, pg 61, 1885)

This bishop would hold authority over many priests, which eventually lead to Catholicism and other religions. Such inventions opened the way for further waves of unscriptural teaching, contrary to Jesus saying that all were to be "brothers".(Matthew 23:8, 9)

Exaggeration carried some Apostolic Fathers adrift. Papias thirsted for truth and referred to the Christian Greek Scriptures (commonly called the New Testament). At the same time, he believed that during the foretold Thousand Year Reign of Christ, grape vines will produce 10,000 branches, each branch 10,000 twigs, each twig 10,000 shoots, each shoot 10,000 clusters, each cluster 10,000 grapes, and each grape the equivalent of 1,000 quarts of wine.(A Dictionary of Christian Biography, Literature, Sects and Doctrines, pg 189, 1887)

Polycarp was willing to die a martyr’s death rather than renounce his Christian faith. It is reported that he was instructed by the apostles and others who knew Jesus. He quoted from the Bible, and it appears that he strove to live by Christian principles. The devotion that some had to Polycarp, however, verged on idolatry. The Martyrdom of Polycarp states that after his death, the “faithful” were eager to claim his remains. They considered his bones “more precious than the most exquisite jewels, and more purified than gold.” (Apostolic Fathers, by Kisopp Lake, 1912, chp 18) Clearly, the poisoned waters of apostasy were surging.

Some Apostolic Fathers accepted extra-Biblical texts as if they were inspired. Clement of Rome (died 101 C.E.?), for one, cites the apocryphal works Wisdom (of Solomon) and Judith. (The book is thought to have been written in Palestine during the Greek period toward the end of the second century or the start of the first century B.C.E.) The writer of The Epistle of Polycarp refers to Tobit (estimated to be of about the third century B.C.E.) to give credence to the idea that the giving of alms has power to deliver the giver from death.

And these are just "tip of the iceberg" concerning apostate ideas that began to emerge just before and after the death of the apostles, who held such twisted thinking at bay. The apostle Paul wrote to Titus: "But have nothing to do with foolish arguments and genealogies and disputes (about what someone's personal view the Bible says) and fights over the (Mosaic) Law, for they are unprofitable and futile. As for a man who promotes a sect (or one who promotes something different than what the apostles taught), reject him after a first and second admonition, know that such a man has deviated from the way (or "one faith", Eph 4:5) and is sinning and is self-condemned."(Titus 3:9-11)
 

StanJ

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Jehovah is NOT found in the Greek. That is an error in trying to make the tetragrammaton of God his name, and is standard for the JWs. Are you a JW guestman?
 

Phoneman777

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Cooter said:
I can't speak for Paul, but the main question that he was intent upon to answer was the false belief that Jesus had already returned a second time. This was his focus - not who the restrainer was. He simply listed a couple of events that had to take place BEFORE Jesus returns. (the war with Rome) Note that he did not identify who would start the "rebellion" either, and we know from history that it was Eleazar Ben Ananus. Nor did he mention who the "Man of Sin" was.

The first item was the restrainer being taken away, which I gave you the actual dates of, after this the "rebellion" (war) was then free to take place, and then the "Man of Sin" was to be revealed. The Man of sin historically was Eleazar Ben Simon - a radical zealot. He was in control of the Temple for three years - up to Passover of 70AD when Titus arrived with 80,000 men and set up the siege. The siege of Jerusalem lasted just 136 days using the numbers given by Daniel. Josephus often remarks in his account about how these terrorists polluted and desecrated the temple during their occupation. The Old and New Covenants actually overlapped by exactly 40 years to the very day - Just like in Ezekiel's day. That is - God gave Israel 40 years to repent/accept the Gospel and those who did not would be punished in the tribulation that came from 66 to 70AD. This 40 year period was from Passover of Jesus' crucifixion to Passover of 70AD right to the day. 2 Thess was written in 52AD and just 14 years later it came to pass. The Old Covenant was decommissioned forever when the Shekinah Glory left the temple and the Mount of Olives. The New Covenant was commissioned on Pentecost of 30AD. Hebrews chapter 8 tells us that the Old Covenant was about to pass away. The heavenly Host abandoned the Temple on Pentecost of 66AD. Hebrews was written in late 64 or early 65 so this prophesy came to pass just 6 years after the book was written.
None of us can speak for Paul, but surely there must be SOME reason why Paul would uncharacteristically withhold from the church great tidings of a mighty Agent of Holiness Restrainer. Is there not anyone who will offer up a more convincing reason than that of the ECF, who say Paul identified the Restrainer as the Roman Empire by mouth but was reluctant to pen that in his letter for fear of the letter falling into the hands of the Roman authorities? After all, the Papacy, which arose as soon as the Caesars vacated the throne, fits precisely all the identifying marks of the Antichrist in Bible prophecy.

Guestman said:
The apostle Paul did not specifically state who the restrainer is, but this can be ascertained from both his words at 2 Thessalonians 2 and Jesus illustration at Matthew 13. So why didn't Paul just come out and say it as the original post asks ?

Because the Bible is written in a very specific way, as Jesus said in prayer to the Father: "I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things ("sacred secrets of the Kingdom" or "mysteries of the kingdom", Matt 13:11) from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children. Yes, O Father, because this is the way you approved".(Matt 11:25, 26)

The Bible is a "closed book" to most, for Jehovah God inspired it in such a way that most cannot grasp its teachings, unable to assemble it like a picture puzzle. Jesus, in speaking about the "sacred secrets of the Kingdom" through a series of illustrations, used the Greek word syniemi some 6 times, that literally means to "mentally put the pieces together".(Matt 13: 13, 14, 15, 19, 23, 51)

Only "young children" ("babes", KJV) or those who allow themselves to be taught by Jehovah God will ever be able to unlock what the Bible really teaches, including what the apostle Paul wrote to the Thessalonians concerning apostasy.

Because most who profess to be Christian reject or set aside the one true God, Jehovah, then what Jesus said could not be fulfilled in them. Concerning the "woman" at Isaiah 54, Jesus, quoting from verse 13, said that "It is written in the Prophets: ' They (her "sons") will all be taught by Jehovah.' Everyone who has listened to the Father (Jehovah God) and learned comes to me".(John 6:45)

Thus, only those who are "taught by Jehovah" are able to understand the content and meaning of the Bible, which means grasping what Paul meant by the one who "is acting as a restraint" to the apostasy that began proliferating after the apostles died.

At Proverbs 25, it says that "it is the glory of God to keep a matter secret, and the glory of kings is to search through a matter. As the heavens are high and the earth is deep, so the heart of kings is unsearchable."(Prov 25:2, 3) God reveals the understanding of his written word through these "kings", those anointed with holy spirit for the "heavenly calling".(Heb 3:1) Jesus was more specific when he said that during our time frame, that he appointed "a faithful and discreet slave" to give members of the "household....meat in due season" (Matt 24:45), unlocking the mysteries of the Bible.

Paul said told the Ephesian older men in about 56 C.E., that "I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves".(Acts 20:29, 30)

The apostolic influence that acted as a restraint against this foretold apostasy, continued until the death of John in about 100 C.E. The rapid influx of apostate ideas and false doctrines and practices began to gain a serious foothold even before John's death, for in writing his three letters, said: "Young children, it is the last hour (before apostasy took firm hold), and just as have heard (John had been warning them that it was coming) that the antichrists (those who have twisted who Jesus really is) is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared, from which fact that it is the last hour (that a firm stand can be taken by the apostles, before apostasy begins to flourish, teaching false religious doctrines and practices)".

So, after John died, none of the so-called apostolic successors (such as the "Apostolic Fathers" or early "Church Fathers") showed any of the restraining influence and strength of the apostles. Rather, many contributed to the foretold apostasy.

For example, contrary to the practice instituted by Jesus at the Lord’s Evening Meal, known also as the Last Supper, the author of The Didache (or Teaching of the Twelve Apostles in which some historians date it before or about the year 100 C.E. Its author is unknown) advised the passing of the wine before the bread. (Matthew 26:26, 27)

This writer also stated that if no body of water was available to perform baptism by immersion, pouring water on the head of the baptism candidate would suffice, though Jesus showed that a person was to be totally "dipped under" the water.(Mark 1:9, 10; Acts 8:36, 38) The same text encouraged Christians to observe such rituals as obligatory fasting twice a week and recitation of the Our Father exactly three times a day, which Jesus did not establish.(Matthew 6:5-13; Luke 18:12)

For his part, Ignatius (who was alive during the time of the apostle John) envisioned a new organization of the Christian congregation (or "church"), with just one bishop presiding “in the place of God.”(The Anti-Nicene Fathers: Translations of the Writings of the Fathers down to Down to A. D. 325, pg 61, 1885)

This bishop would hold authority over many priests, which eventually lead to Catholicism and other religions. Such inventions opened the way for further waves of unscriptural teaching, contrary to Jesus saying that all were to be "brothers".(Matthew 23:8, 9)

Exaggeration carried some Apostolic Fathers adrift. Papias thirsted for truth and referred to the Christian Greek Scriptures (commonly called the New Testament). At the same time, he believed that during the foretold Thousand Year Reign of Christ, grape vines will produce 10,000 branches, each branch 10,000 twigs, each twig 10,000 shoots, each shoot 10,000 clusters, each cluster 10,000 grapes, and each grape the equivalent of 1,000 quarts of wine.(A Dictionary of Christian Biography, Literature, Sects and Doctrines, pg 189, 1887)

Polycarp was willing to die a martyr’s death rather than renounce his Christian faith. It is reported that he was instructed by the apostles and others who knew Jesus. He quoted from the Bible, and it appears that he strove to live by Christian principles. The devotion that some had to Polycarp, however, verged on idolatry. The Martyrdom of Polycarp states that after his death, the “faithful” were eager to claim his remains. They considered his bones “more precious than the most exquisite jewels, and more purified than gold.” (Apostolic Fathers, by Kisopp Lake, 1912, chp 18) Clearly, the poisoned waters of apostasy were surging.

Some Apostolic Fathers accepted extra-Biblical texts as if they were inspired. Clement of Rome (died 101 C.E.?), for one, cites the apocryphal works Wisdom (of Solomon) and Judith. (The book is thought to have been written in Palestine during the Greek period toward the end of the second century or the start of the first century B.C.E.) The writer of The Epistle of Polycarp refers to Tobit (estimated to be of about the third century B.C.E.) to give credence to the idea that the giving of alms has power to deliver the giver from death.

And these are just "tip of the iceberg" concerning apostate ideas that began to emerge just before and after the death of the apostles, who held such twisted thinking at bay. The apostle Paul wrote to Titus: "But have nothing to do with foolish arguments and genealogies and disputes (about what someone's personal view the Bible says) and fights over the (Mosaic) Law, for they are unprofitable and futile. As for a man who promotes a sect (or one who promotes something different than what the apostles taught), reject him after a first and second admonition, know that such a man has deviated from the way (or "one faith", Eph 4:5) and is sinning and is self-condemned."(Titus 3:9-11)
The title of the thread is not "Who do you think the Restrainer is?". The title is "A Question About The Restrainer", and the question is "if the Restrainer is some "Agent of Holiness", then for what reason in heaven's name would Paul choose to withhold from the hated and severely persecuted church of his day and from the church as a whole until the Second Coming by virtue of Scripture such glad tidings as that He by whatever means has a firmly planted boot on the neck of the Antichrist and is restraining him from arising?
 

Cooter

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Let me give you some more detail of what I am talking about.

Ezekiel 4:5-8 (NASB)
5 "For I have assigned you a number of days corresponding to the years of their iniquity, three hundred and ninety days; thus you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.
6 "When you have completed these, you shall lie down a second time, but on your right side and bear the iniquity of the house of Judah; I have assigned it to you for forty days, a day for each year.
7 "Then you shall set your face toward the siege of Jerusalem with your arm bared and prophesy against it.
8 "Now behold, I will put ropes on you so that you cannot turn from one side to the other until you have completed the days of your siege.

God gave Israel a warning through the acting of Ezekiel. God is saying that he had given Israel 40 years to repent – and if they did not he was going to send them into captivity – a siege was pending.
The northern 10 tribes had already been taken. So He symbolically had Ezekiel lie on his right side for 40 days. After this the siege would come – and it did and the Temple of Solomon and the city of Jerusalem were destroyed.

Ezekiel further states in a vision that he saw...
Ezekiel 11:23-25 (NASB)
23 The glory of the LORD (Shekinah Glory) went up from the midst of the city {Temple) and stood over the mountain which is east of the city. (Mount of Olives)
This event proceeded the destruction of the Temple of Solomon and the city of Jerusalem.

This very same identical scenario happened when the Temple of Herod and the City were destroyed in 70AD. God gave Israel 40 years to repent (Passover 30AD to Passover 70AD) and when they did not - this same Shekinah Glory once again departed the sanctuary. It was not long after this “restrainer” left that the rebellion began and in the next four years well over a million Jews lie dead. I am including all of the Jews that were killed outside of Jerusalem. In fact there is another parallel between these two events – they both happened on the very same day – the 9th of Av. Exact same pattern – the restrainer left the temple on Nissan 8th just before Passover on 66AD and then destruction came.

And if you want to question Paul's writing I have many more questions about what he didn't say. His misunderstood comments about women's place in the church has caused a lot of Damage. I'm sure that if Paul ever realized that he was writing scripture and that billions of copies of his work would be extant in our time - he would have written his letters much differently. So far as he knew at the time - his letters were only read by the leadership and congregation of mainly one Church. I doubt that he ever knew that his work was being published all over the Church world because he was beheaded in 67AD. He and all of the other Disciples and apostles believed that the return of Jesus was imminent and they had no idea what so ever that time would exist after the great tribulation of Jerusalem and Israel as a whole. Jesus told them He was coming immediately after the “Tribulation of those days.”This means 70AD. And of course He added his famous caveat – if the Father wills it. Which of course is what caused the delay which has lasted about 2,000 years.
 

Phoneman777

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Seems there is still no one willing to address the elephant in the room. It appears the only possible reason for Paul to not mention the identity of the Restrainer was exactly what every ECF said was the reason.
 

Guestman

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Phoneman777 said:
None of us can speak for Paul, but surely there must be SOME reason why Paul would uncharacteristically withhold from the church great tidings of a mighty Agent of Holiness Restrainer. Is there not anyone who will offer up a more convincing reason than that of the ECF, who say Paul identified the Restrainer as the Roman Empire by mouth but was reluctant to pen that in his letter for fear of the letter falling into the hands of the Roman authorities? After all, the Papacy, which arose as soon as the Caesars vacated the throne, fits precisely all the identifying marks of the Antichrist in Bible prophecy.

The title of the thread is not "Who do you think the Restrainer is?". The title is "A Question About The Restrainer", and the question is "if the Restrainer is some "Agent of Holiness", then for what reason in heaven's name would Paul choose to withhold from the hated and severely persecuted church of his day and from the church as a whole until the Second Coming by virtue of Scripture such glad tidings as that He by whatever means has a firmly planted boot on the neck of the Antichrist and is restraining him from arising?
The reason why Paul did not give a "clear-cut" revelation of who the "restrainer" is, was provided by the first few sentences of my post. But you are like many who want everything spelled out, but this is not going to happen. Jesus stated that our Maker, Jehovah God has "hidden these things from the (worldly) wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children. Yes, O Father, because this is way you approved".(Matt 11:25, 26)


Jehovah's has written the Bible in such a way that unless you are like "young children", humble and teachable, you are denied an accurate understanding of what the Bible really says. This ' is the way God has approved '. And the unlocking of the mysteries of the Bible would be during our time frame, called "the time of the end" at Daniel 11:40.


It is during this time period that has been going on for about 100 years, that "those having insight will shine as brightly as the expanse of heaven, and those bringing the many to righteousness like the stars, forever and ever. As for you Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book (of Daniel) until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant ", including who the "restrainer" is.


The question you asked "If the "Holy Spirit filled church" is the Restrainer, then why doesn't Paul just come out and say it?" has little merit, for which is more important, knowing why Paul did not disclose who the "restrainer" is or an understanding whom Paul was speaking about along with other vital details such as the "man of lawlessness" that lays out what would transpire after the death of the apostles ?

The apostle Paul gave the young man Timothy this sound counsel, to not "pay attention to false stories and genealogies. Such things end up in nothing useful but merely give rise to speculations rather than providing anything from God in connection with faith".(1 Tim 1:4)


Many have no idea what Proverbs 25:2, 3 means that says that God keeps matters secret and is only revealed through "kings" whose "heart...is unsearchable", just as they fail to grasp Proverbs 8:22-31 concerning who is spoken of as "wisdom" personified and is God's "master worker".(Prov 8:30)


Jesus said it succinctly, that unless a person can "mentally put the pieces together" (Greek syniemi) with the aid of the "kings" mentioned at Proverbs 25, an accurate understanding of the Bible, including who the "restrainer" is, is not readily possible.


Sincere Bible students are interested in what the Bible really teaches, so they pursue this with the help of the "kings", unlocking its "sacred secrets"(Matt 13:11), grasping who the "restrainer" is with which Jesus illustration at Matthew 13:24-30 provides a critical understanding as what would happen after all the apostles had died with regard to the newly established "one faith" of Christianity by Jesus Christ.(Eph 4:5)
 

Phoneman777

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Guestman said:
The reason why Paul did not give a "clear-cut" revelation of who the "restrainer" is, was provided by the first few sentences of my post. But you are like many who want everything spelled out, but this is not going to happen. Jesus stated that our Maker, Jehovah God has "hidden these things from the (worldly) wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children. Yes, O Father, because this is way you approved".(Matt 11:25, 26)

Jehovah's has written the Bible in such a way that unless you are like "young children", humble and teachable, you are denied an accurate understanding of what the Bible really says. This ' is the way God has approved '. And the unlocking of the mysteries of the Bible would be during our time frame, called "the time of the end" at Daniel 11:40.

It is during this time period that has been going on for about 100 years, that "those having insight will shine as brightly as the expanse of heaven, and those bringing the many to righteousness like the stars, forever and ever. As for you Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book (of Daniel) until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant ", including who the "restrainer" is.

The question you asked "If the "Holy Spirit filled church" is the Restrainer, then why doesn't Paul just come out and say it?" has little merit, for which is more important, knowing why Paul did not disclose who the "restrainer" is or an understanding whom Paul was speaking about along with other vital details such as the "man of lawlessness" that lays out what would transpire after the death of the apostles ?

The apostle Paul gave the young man Timothy this sound counsel, to not "pay attention to false stories and genealogies. Such things end up in nothing useful but merely give rise to speculations rather than providing anything from God in connection with faith".(1 Tim 1:4)

Many have no idea what Proverbs 25:2, 3 means that says that God keeps matters secret and is only revealed through "kings" whose "heart...is unsearchable", just as they fail to grasp Proverbs 8:22-31 concerning who is spoken of as "wisdom" personified and is God's "master worker".(Prov 8:30)

Jesus said it succinctly, that unless a person can "mentally put the pieces together" (Greek syniemi) with the aid of the "kings" mentioned at Proverbs 25, an accurate understanding of the Bible, including who the "restrainer" is, is not readily possible.

Sincere Bible students are interested in what the Bible really teaches, so they pursue this with the help of the "kings", unlocking its "sacred secrets"(Matt 13:11), grasping who the "restrainer" is with which Jesus illustration at Matthew 13:24-30 provides a critical understanding as what would happen after all the apostles had died with regard to the newly established "one faith" of Christianity by Jesus Christ.(Eph 4:5)
I thought you'd eventually figure this out, but I'll be glad to explain it to you. But, before I do, please consider that suggesting that this question is a "merit-less" waste of time akin to "false stories and genealogies" is in my view a pathetic attempt to shoot the messenger because of the message. The same could be said of other "time wasting" issues like the claim that the use of "Jehovah" is necessary when referring to the God of the Old Testament, which was in fact Jesus. What could be more pertinent to the "man of sin" issue than an examination of the facts surrounding the one who restrained the "man of sin", including why a man who had a habit of preaching Christ and Him crucified so exhaustively that he literally preached people to death (Acts 20:7-11 KJV) would suddenly break character and conceal the identity of the one who was yet restraining the rise of the most fearsome enemy of Christ?

Yes, God hides things from the "wise and prudent" but reveals them "unto babes" and Jesus always took pains to explain truth to His true followers after the "wise and prudent" had dispersed. Paul had no reason to hide the identity of the Restrainer from those he considered God's "children" (1 Thessalonians 2:7 KJV), and unlike the book of Daniel which was sealed, not one of the Bible prophets is told to seal up anything in Paul's day "for the time is at hand". Paul, John, Jesus, and the rest were in the business of revealing as much as they could to the faithful, not concealing anything. Knowledge of some great champion "Agent of Holiness" Restrainer would have been welcome relief and comfort to them and us, not something hard for Christians to bear, so again it makes no sense for Paul to have remained secretive.

He did however have good reason to hide the identity of the Restrainer if it was what the ECF and the Protestant Reformers said it was: the Roman Empire. It would not have bode well for the fledgling church to come under suspicion of insurrection if a letter from Paul which plainly stated that after the fall of Rome, the Antichrist would arise fell into the hand of the state. Nice try, but please try again.
 

Straightshot

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Reply to the OP

The Lord Himself is the "restrainer"

He keeps Satan at bay and will do this until He is ready to allow for this [2 Thessalonians 2:8-12; Revelation 12:12]

His ultimate purpose ..... [Isaiah 14:12-19; Ezekiel 28:12-19; Revelation 20:1-3; 20:7-10]
 

Phoneman777

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Straightshot said:
Reply to the OP

The Lord Himself is the "restrainer"

He keeps Satan at bay and will do this until He is ready to allow for this [2 Thessalonians 2:8-12; Revelation 12:12]

His ultimate purpose ..... [Isaiah 14:12-19; Ezekiel 28:12-19; Revelation 20:1-3; 20:7-10]
Thanks for your reply, but the title of the thread is not "Who is the Restrainer?" Would you care to venture an answer to OP question?
 

Straightshot

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"Thanks for your reply, but the title of the thread is not "Who is the Restrainer?" Would you care to venture an answer to OP question?"


Yes .... it is the Lord who will remove His restraining hand [stand out of the way] and allow for Satan and his beast in the human little horn of Daniel's visions to be manifested [Daniel 7:7-25; 8:9-25; 9:26-27 [the other prince that shall come]; 11:36-45; 12:7; Revelation 9:11; 11:7; 12:12; 13:1-4; 17:8-18]

He will do this because those who will follow the beast have refused to believe the truth about Him .... so He will give the same the devil [2 Thessalonians 2:8-12] [These will be the Koranic Muslims of the Middle East who say that God has no Son and that Jesus did not die for the sins of mankind]

It is the Lord who restrains Satan's ambitions and He will give the devil, his beast, and human followers enough latitude for their own eventual self destruction [Psalms 83; Isaiah 14;12-19; Ezekiel 28:12-19; 38; 39; Daniel 11:45; Joel 2:20; 3:9-21; Micah 5:5-6; 5:9-15; Zechariah 12:1-9; 14:1-3; Revelation 12:12; 14:9-11; 14:14-20;16:1-14; 19:19-21; 20:1-3; 20:10]
 

StanJ

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Straightshot said:
"Thanks for your reply, but the title of the thread is not "Who is the Restrainer?" Would you care to venture an answer to OP question?"


Yes .... it is the Lord who will remove His restraining hand [stand out of the way] and allow for Satan and his beast in the human little horn of Daniel's visions to be manifested [Daniel 7:7-25; 8:9-25; 9:26-27 [the other prince that shall come]; 11:36-45; 12:7; Revelation 9:11; 11:7; 12:12; 13:1-4; 17:8-18]

He will do this because those who will follow the beast have refused to believe the truth about Him .... so He will give the same the devil [2 Thessalonians 2:8-12] [These will be the Koranic Muslims of the Middle East who say that God has no Son and that Jesus did not die for the sins of mankind]

It is the Lord who restrains Satan's ambitions and He will give the devil, his beast, and human followers enough latitude for their own eventual self destruction [Psalms 83; Isaiah 14;12-19; Ezekiel 28:12-19; 38; 39; Daniel 11:45; Joel 2:20; 3:9-21; Micah 5:5-6; 5:9-15; Zechariah 12:1-9; 14:1-3; Revelation 12:12; 14:9-11; 14:14-20;16:1-14; 19:19-21; 20:1-3; 20:10]
Welcome to CB Straightshot.
I concur with you but this member is infamous for not accepting ANY answer to this question, so my advice is to ignore it.
See ya around.
 

Straightshot

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Thanks for the welcome workman

I gathered the same thought about the poster by the flavor of the response received

Question:

Is this forum relatively new?

.... or is it on the slide like many forums today with very little posting related to Bible prophecy?

Many things are worthy of attention today, specifically the Middle Eastern stage setting

I do know that the professing "church" has become extremely apostate and filled with scoffers who have all but left the teaching of the Lord's prophetic word
 

StanJ

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Straightshot said:
Thanks for the welcome workman

I gathered the same thought about the poster by the flavor of the response received

Question:

Is this forum relatively new?

.... or is it on the slide like many forums today with very little posting related to Bible prophecy?

Many things are worthy of attention today, specifically the Middle Eastern stage setting

I do know that the professing "church" has become extremely apostate and filled with scoffers who have all but left the teaching of the Lord's prophetic word
Actually that is my title, my name is Stan...which is my real name, as is the scarry photo. :p

No it's not new. I myself have been on it for just about a year now. I believe it started in 2006 with HammerStone.

IMO, we are living Bible prophecy so that may be one reason, but false teaching is far more important for me to deal with.

In any event good to have you onboard.
 

Straightshot

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Yes, false teaching is predominant today in many forms .... and there is little left of biblical Christianity as I see it

And these things should be expected as the world moves closer to the end of this present age

The day is coming when the Lord will not tarry any longer

Good to see that there are those like yourself who take a standing against the false teaching that abounds in professing Christianity today
 

Phoneman777

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Straightshot said:
Yes, false teaching is predominant today in many forms .... and there is little left of biblical Christianity as I see it

And these things should be expected as the world moves closer to the end of this present age

The day is coming when the Lord will not tarry any longer

Good to see that there are those like yourself who take a standing against the false teaching that abounds in professing Christianity today
The OP question is not, "Who is the Restrainer?". The question is, "If the Holy Spirit or some other Agent of Holiness (God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit filled church, etc.) is the Restrainer Paul spoke of which was preventing the rise of the "man of sin" Antichrist, then WHY did he withhold from the suffering, persecuted early church and from the rest of us this most encouraging news?" If Paul meant to teach that the Restrainer had a firmly planted boot on the neck of the "man of sin", surely this man Paul - who was so accustomed to proclaiming all things things Godly to all men, from kings to peasants - would have no good reason for not proclaiming such encouraging, inspiring news to a church that sorely needed it.

Paul: "Beloved, though we are killed all the day long and like sheep we are led to the slaughter, take heart! Our God is still on the throne yet restrains the man of sin with mighty power and majesty, and whatever our lot might be, we can be sure that in the end, He will bring us home to be with Him in glory...'

Surely, we would expect Paul to say something like this to the Thessalonians (and us), to whom he'd already identified the man of sin's identity. Why all the secrecy and mystery? There is simply no good reason for this if the Restrainer was indeed an Agent of Holiness.