Whom Are Like-Minded With Me On Masturbation As A Work of the Flesh?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

JesusIsFaithful

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2015
1,765
438
83
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I believe masturbation is the work of the flesh called uncleanness as listed in the NT.

I can post alot of scripture showing this but everything settles on recognizing what uncleanness is when it has been listed inbetween fornication ( sex before marriage ) and lasciviousness ( sexual excessiveness ).

If you do not believe uncleanness is masturbation, then what is it as listed ibetween those two sexual sins?

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
 

FHII

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2011
4,833
2,494
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Sure, I believe its a sin. Can't disagree. But to you think that someone covered by grace is going to hell if they masturbate?
 

JesusIsFaithful

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2015
1,765
438
83
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
FHII said:
Sure, I believe its a sin. Can't disagree. But to you think that someone covered by grace is going to hell if they masturbate?
Someone covered by grace is not going to hell, but a believer is not covered by grace to live in sin and yet expecting to be raptured before the great tribulation comes.

Consider this: Jesus had taught excommunication of those having gone astray in the hopes of leading them to repentance;

Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. 15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Paul taught the church about excommunication too which shows symbolism on why and how God will judge His House first at the pre tribulational rapture event as no unrepenant believer that did not look to Jesus for help to repent from iniquity can eat at the Marriage Supper.

1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


See how God can use the great tribulation of those unrepentant saints left behind?

1 Corinthians 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Now discern with His help that this will hold true for unrepentant believers as they will not be eating at the Marriage Supper.

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

So if the church fails to discipline saved believers in how to run that race by looking to the author & finisher of our faith in laying aside every weight & sin, God the Father will do it by leaving them behind for the purpose of chastening them to be partakers of His holiness.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Trusting Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd is how we can run that race by faith in the Son of God & all His promises to us.

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Jude 1:8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh,....18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. 19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. 20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, 21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22 And of some have compassion, making a difference: 23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
 

ATP

New Member
Jan 3, 2015
3,264
49
0
U.S.A.
JesusIsFaithful said:
Someone covered by grace is not going to hell, but a believer is not covered by grace to live in sin and yet expecting to be raptured before the great tribulation comes.
The believer is going to be raptured regardless of what sin he/she is in. Pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib..it doesn't matter. A saint is a saint is a saint. Either you're a child of God or not.
 

JesusIsFaithful

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2015
1,765
438
83
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
ATP said:
The believer is going to be raptured regardless of what sin he/she is in. Pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib..it doesn't matter. A saint is a saint is a saint. Either you're a child of God or not.
A saint is a saint, but not every saved believer is a disciple to be chosen for the Marriage Supper and so there is a race to be run as many are called, but few are chosen to attend.

God is coming to judge His House first at the pre trib rapture event; and there is condemnation to those that walk in the flesh. That is why running that race is by looking to the author & finsiher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin or become a castaway to be received later on of their earthly inheritance after the great tribulation when the prodigal son will find that he cannot have that first inheritance back after losing it to wild living, but he will find that he is still son and be given a robe and ring to celebrate what Jesus has done in keeping them regardless for being left behind of not being ready and found abiding in Him as His disciples.

Better believe that God will do the excommunication because He taught us to do this; and what the church fail to do; God will.

May every believer look to & trust Jesus Christ to help them depart from iniquity because we can only live this reconciled relationship with God through Jesus Christ in running that race as He will finish it for us; believe Him to overcome and give Him thanks..

Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Romans 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit....12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Revelations 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
 

Born_Again

Well-Known Member
Nov 5, 2014
1,324
159
63
US
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I read these verses in a few different Bible versions. To get a true understanding of these passages you need to define "Flesh". If you can accurately define it (interpret it) then we all get the correct meaning of these verses. Romans 8:12 for example. Even if KJV was the authority, you need to have an understanding of "Flesh" to get the true meaning of the verse. I'm not knocking whether or not the OP is a sin, I am saying we need to make sure what the pretense of the word is.
 

pom2014

New Member
Dec 6, 2014
784
72
0
What makes masturbation a sin?

Well let's look at what's really going on.

Its not the physical act itself, it is the lustful fantasy that goes along with the act.

That's what defiled a man.
 

ATP

New Member
Jan 3, 2015
3,264
49
0
U.S.A.
JesusIsFaithful said:
A saint is a saint, but not every saved believer is a disciple to be chosen for the Marriage Supper..
The rapture has nothing to do with whether you've fallen into sin or not. It has to do with whether you're born again or not. The elect here is speaking of ALL born again Christians who are alive at that time..

Matt 24:29-31 NIV “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

JesusIsFaithful said:
and so there is a race to be run as many are called, but few are chosen to attend.
When scripture talks about running the race, they aren't talking about not being raptured or losing your salvation. It's referring to losing crowns in heaven at the Bema Seat (first resurrection).

1 Cor 9:24-27 NIV Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

1 - Crown 1 - Crown Of Righteousness— Loved The Lord's Appearing - 2 Tim 4:8
2 - Crown 2 - Incorruptible Crown— Disciplined Bodies / Self-Control - 1 Cor 9:25-27
3 - Crown 3 - Crown Of Life— Endured Patiently Thru Trials - James 1:12, Rev 2:10
4 - Crown 4 - Crown Of Glory— Godly Leaders Who Were Examples To Flock - 1 Pet 5:2-4
5 - Crown 5 - Crown Of Rejoicing— Soul Winners Crown - 1 Thess 2:19, Dan 12:3
 

Born_Again

Well-Known Member
Nov 5, 2014
1,324
159
63
US
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
pom2014 said:
What makes masturbation a sin?

Well let's look at what's really going on.

Its not the physical act itself, it is the lustful fantasy that goes along with the act.

That's what defiled a man.
That's a good way of putting it. But what if the "lust" is for the spouse? Is it still lust at that point? I really have no answer for that myself but was curious what your take on that was. But I agree with you. :)
 

FHII

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2011
4,833
2,494
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I'm a little confused about grace as tou explain it. Exactly what is it that grace dies for us? Sorry, but I'm struggling to understand what you are saying. Best I can come up with basrd on what you said is that it keeps us from going to hell, but only if we don't sin. And if we masturbate, we have gone astray, which must mean we have left God and don't trust in Jesus.
 

pom2014

New Member
Dec 6, 2014
784
72
0
Born again, if it is your spouse it is not defilement. That spouse is there for both of your mutual pleasure.

But often the fantasy is not about a spouse, so is defilement.
 

Born_Again

Well-Known Member
Nov 5, 2014
1,324
159
63
US
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
pom2014 said:
Born again, if it is your spouse it is not defilement. That spouse is there for both of your mutual pleasure.

But often the fantasy is not about a spouse, so is defilement.
Thank you sir! :) You are right. It's probably safe to say most of the time it is not about the spouse.

And from here, we lead into rapture???? HAHA :)
 

JesusIsFaithful

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2015
1,765
438
83
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Born_Again said:
I read these verses in a few different Bible versions. To get a true understanding of these passages you need to define "Flesh". If you can accurately define it (interpret it) then we all get the correct meaning of these verses. Romans 8:12 for example. Even if KJV was the authority, you need to have an understanding of "Flesh" to get the true meaning of the verse. I'm not knocking whether or not the OP is a sin, I am saying we need to make sure what the pretense of the word is.
I would say that flesh is pertaining to living after the flesh as sowing to the works of the flesh. We mortify the deeds of the body by the Spirit by sowing to the fruits of the Spirit & also by His grace & by the Son of God's help of not sowing to the works of the flesh.
ATP said:
The rapture has nothing to do with whether you've fallen into sin or not. It has to do with whether you're born again or not. The elect here is speaking of ALL born again Christians who are alive at that time..

Matt 24:29-31 NIV “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.


When scripture talks about running the race, they aren't talking about not being raptured or losing your salvation. It's referring to losing crowns in heaven at the Bema Seat (first resurrection).

1 Cor 9:24-27 NIV Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

1 - Crown 1 - Crown Of Righteousness— Loved The Lord's Appearing - 2 Tim 4:8
2 - Crown 2 - Incorruptible Crown— Disciplined Bodies / Self-Control - 1 Cor 9:25-27
3 - Crown 3 - Crown Of Life— Endured Patiently Thru Trials - James 1:12, Rev 2:10
4 - Crown 4 - Crown Of Glory— Godly Leaders Who Were Examples To Flock - 1 Pet 5:2-4
5 - Crown 5 - Crown Of Rejoicing— Soul Winners Crown - 1 Thess 2:19, Dan 12:3
The elect are those few chosen from the many called in being found as His disciples by His grace & by His help in running that race. Those left behind is not testifying that they were never saved.

Any work of iniquity denies Him: Titus 1:16 Anyone that denies Him by that iniquity, they will be denied by Him ( 2 Timothy 2:12 & Matthew 7:21 ) Him professing that He never knew them is not saying they were never saved but being denied by Him because they were workers of inqiuity; thus unapproved and disqualified from attending the Marriage Supper held in His honour so crowns is not the only consequence for losing as a reward.

Believers found in iniquity when the Bridegroom comes will be left behind unless they repent by His grace & by His help. Note how the vessels unto dishonour ARE STILL IN His House for not departing from iniquity in 2 Timothy 2:18-21 and how if they depart from iniquity before the Bridegroom comes, they can be received as vessels unto honour in His House.

Look at the consequence for what we build on that foundation 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 and yet those that do poorly will still be saved vs 15 so as through fire come that judgment day vs 13 at the cost of physical death for defiling the body which is the temple of the Holy Spirit vs 16-17.

Really think any one getting that chastening & scourging is going to be there at the Marriage Supper when His words testify they will be received with hospitality and to entertain them? The Marriage Supper is for those ready and found abiding in Him & His words that trusted Jesus as their Good Shepherd to do it in finishing that race for them as the crowns they receive are His "crowning achievements" in them. Those crowns are the elect's testimony of what He has done for them in running that race.

So no... Hebrews 12 th chapter warns of the Father chastening those that have not repented as He calls every believer having His seal to look to the author & finisher of our faith to help them lay aside every weight & sin in preparing themselves by Him to be received by Him.

There is a falling away from the faith and they were and still are saved when they had fallen away and therefore this is why God is coming to judge His House first at the pre trib rapture event to restore the wayward to the path of righeousness for His name's sake because He is the Good Shepherd as He will lose nothing of all the Father has given Him; but which last day will the saint be received by Him? At the pre trib rapture or at the end of thegreat tribulation?

All born again christians are saved; that foundation is laid, but not every one will be ready to go which is why discipleship by looking to Jesus as our Good Shepherd in running that race for the high prize of our calling is key to desiring to be chosen by Him to attend.
FHII said:
I'm a little confused about grace as tou explain it. Exactly what is it that grace dies for us? Sorry, but I'm struggling to understand what you are saying. Best I can come up with basrd on what you said is that it keeps us from going to hell, but only if we don't sin. And if we masturbate, we have gone astray, which must mean we have left God and don't trust in Jesus.
All born again believers are saved; and so the running of that race by faith in the Son of God as His disciples is NOT FOR SALVATION, but for the high prize of our calling to be received as a vessel unto honour in His House to attend the Marriage Supper held in His honour. By the grace of God we have been saved by faith and so by the grace of God we shall run that race by faith in the Son of God to finish His work in us in beinging us Home to the Marriage Supper above. A child can do this simply by trusting Him as our Good Shepherd all the way Home in living as His disciple.
 

ATP

New Member
Jan 3, 2015
3,264
49
0
U.S.A.
JesusIsFaithful said:
All born again christians are saved; that foundation is laid, but not every one will be ready to go.
That is false and not biblical.
JesusIsFaithful said:
There is a falling away from the faith and they were and still are saved when they had fallen away and therefore this is why God is coming to judge His House first at the pre trib rapture event to restore the wayward to the path of righeousness for His name's sake because He is the Good Shepherd as He will lose nothing of all the Father has given Him; but which last day will the saint be received by Him? At the pre trib rapture or at the end of thegreat tribulation?
Pre-trib rapture is a false doctrine of Satan. There will be a falling away first and then signs in the sun, moon stars and earth..

Note 1: Rapture - Matt 24:29-31 tells us of the rapture, and Rev 6:12-13 tells us when it will occur, at the sixth seal. In Matt 24:29-31 NIV, Mark 13:24-27 NIV, Luke 21:25-28 NIV and Rev 6:12-14 NIV there will be signs in the sun, moon and stars and there will be earthquakes.

Note 2: Notice in 2 Thess 2:1-4 mentions the man of lawlessness, and in Luke 21:25-28 nations will be in anguish and perplexity, and people will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world. The man of lawlessness will make these things happen in the Great Trib.

Matt 24:29-31 NIV / Mark 13:24-27 NIV “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Luke 21:25-28 NIV “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

2 Thess 2:1-4 NIV Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessnessa is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Rev 6:12-14 NIV I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

- ATP
 

JesusIsFaithful

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2015
1,765
438
83
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
ATP said:
That is false and not biblical.
Had Jesus taught excommunication or not?

Matthew 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. 11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. 15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

If Jesus had taught excommunication, then so will God do when the Bridegroom comes for the ready & abiding bride of Christ to be taken to Heaven to eat at the table of the Marriage Supper.

Note how Paul's explanation of how excommunication is to serve the church for true fellowship.

1 Corinthians 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

That was for the iniquity of fornication. Now if the church failed to do what Jesus had taught, imagine what God will do to the unrepentant believer? See how verse 5 mirrors what God will do in leaving those unrepentant believers behind?

Read on for the flip side of how the atmosphere of the Marriage Supper will be about.

1 Corinthians 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

So we are not to have company with unrepentant saved believers, let alone eat with them down here and so you better believe that is going to be the way it is up there at the Marriage Supper.

So yea... it is very Biblical.

Salvation is never at stake for the believer, but the rewards of crowns is not the only risk of being a loss here for not looking to the author & finisher of our faith in running that race. A saved but unrepentant believer can lose his seat at the table.
 

ATP

New Member
Jan 3, 2015
3,264
49
0
U.S.A.
JesusIsFaithful said:
Had Jesus taught excommunication or not?

Matthew 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. 11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. 15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

If Jesus had taught excommunication, then so will God do when the Bridegroom comes for the ready & abiding bride of Christ to be taken to Heaven to eat at the table of the Marriage Supper.

Note how Paul's explanation of how excommunication is to serve the church for true fellowship.
Matt 18:10-17 has nothing to do with the rapture.

JesusIsFaithful said:
1 Corinthians 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

That was for the iniquity of fornication. Now if the church failed to do what Jesus had taught, imagine what God will do to the unrepentant believer? See how verse 5 mirrors what God will do in leaving those unrepentant believers behind?
1 Cor 5:5 has nothing to do with the rapture.

JesusIsFaithful said:
Read on for the flip side of how the atmosphere of the Marriage Supper will be about.

1 Corinthians 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

So we are not to have company with unrepentant saved believers, let alone eat with them down here and so you better believe that is going to be the way it is up there at the Marriage Supper.

So yea... it is very Biblical.
1 Cor 5:6-13 has nothing to do with the rapture.

You've taken scriptures about the parable of the wandering sheep, dealing with sin in the church and incest and have taken them out of context.

- ATP
 

7angels

Active Member
Aug 13, 2011
624
88
28
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
i will respond in red since i don't know how to separate the quotes.
ATP said:
That is false and not biblical.
​what are you a midrib or post trib or what? i just posted a few questions that i expect cannot be answered without a doubt.

Pre-trib rapture is a false doctrine of Satan. There will be a falling away first and then signs in the sun, moon stars and earth..

i know for certain that there is no evidence to perfectly approve or deny pretrib rapture, midrib rapture, and depending upon your view post trib rapture too. so please don't be calling their beliefs unbiblical or false. remember how you deal with other so will you be dealt the same. also remember that unless you know every one of your views are biblical you can fall into the retribution category. because you will be held responsible for your words.

Note 1: Rapture - Matt 24:29-31 tells us of the rapture, and Rev 6:12-13 tells us when it will occur, at the sixth seal. In Matt 24:29-31 NIV, Mark 13:24-27 NIV, Luke 21:25-28 NIV and Rev 6:12-14 NIV there will be signs in the sun, moon and stars and there will be earthquakes.
first you quotes there will be signs in the sky. if you start quoting that verse then please tell me what sign i am looking for. i am studying astrology and i know for a fact that there are signs in the stars so please tell me what they are if you are so sure and please don't quote red moon scriptures or sun going dark scriptures. i want to know what to look for like when Christ was born how the stars looked at that time is really interesting or what did the stars look like at the death of Christ and ect. when we look back upon it the stars tell us an amazing story. the stars don't just appear one day like writing and gone the next. so to quote that verse with such authority tells me 1 of 2 things. first you are blowing smoke because you have no idea what you are referring to or second you have insight into the stars that i would like to learn about.
Note 2: Notice in 2 Thess 2:1-4 mentions the man of lawlessness, and in Luke 21:25-28 nations will be in anguish and perplexity, and people will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world. The man of lawlessness will make these things happen in the Great Trib.
this verse in no way proves your case except that the antichrist will declare himself God midrib. the great trib starts 3 1/2 years before the antichrist declares himself God.
Matt 24:29-31 NIV / Mark 13:24-27 NIV “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
what is this sign in heaven after the sun is darkened, the moon gives no light, the stars fall from the sky, and ect. verse 30 starts with THEN. how soon or how late is it when THEN the sign of the Son of man coming? what is the four winds mean? what is from one end of heaven to the other?
Luke 21:25-28 NIV “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
what are the heavenly bodies? who is to stand up and lift their heads up?
2 Thess 2:1-4 NIV Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessnessa is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
what rebellion is he talking about? what is the day of the Lord?
Rev 6:12-14 NIV I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
​how do you explain rev 9:4? there are still Godly people on the earth? so how can the rapture take place in rev 6? does God not count some as worthy so he leaves them behind? if so why protect them?
- ATP
these are just a few questions for you. i will have more once i find out for sure which rapture theory you believe in.

God bless
 

ATP

New Member
Jan 3, 2015
3,264
49
0
U.S.A.
7angels said:
i will respond in red since i don't know how to separate the quotes.
these are just a few questions for you. i will have more once i find out for sure which rapture theory you believe in.

God bless
I believe in mid-trip rapture. Seals are open in the first half, then antichrist reveals himself during mid-trib, and the trumpets and bowls are open in the second half.

first you quotes there will be signs in the sky. if you start quoting that verse then please tell me what sign i am looking for. i am studying

Answer: Whether the the moon and stars are symbolic or not isn't really the issue. It could very well be symbolic describing nations and such. But the fact that Matt 24:29-31 NIV states the rapture and Matt 24:29-31 NIV, Mark 13:24-27 NIV, Luke 21:25-28 NIV and Rev 6:12-14 NIV speaks of sun, moon and shakes. We know the sixth seal is opened inside the Great Trib, and the anti-christ is a part of it also in Luke 21:25-28 NIV and 2 Thess 2:1-4 NIV.

this verse in no way proves your case except that the antichrist will declare himself God

Answer: How so?

what is this sign in heaven after the sun is darkened, the moon gives no light, the stars fall from the sky, and ect. verse 30 starts with THEN. how soon or how late is it when THEN the sign of the Son of man coming? what is the four winds mean? what is from one end of heaven to the other?

Answer: The sign is Jesus coming down from the clouds Matt 24:30 and 1 Thess 4:17 both mention clouds, and 1 Thess 4:17 is obviously rapture scripture. The four winds are in relation to the four corners of the earth, meaning Jesus will not miss a spot. Heaven refers to the first heaven. There are three heavens stated in the Bible. (Matt 24:31 WNT And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet-blast, and they will bring together His own People to Him from north, south, east and west--from one extremity of the world to the other.)

what are the heavenly bodies?

Answer: I believe the heavenly bodies refer to the hosts or the "powers" of heaven, the first heaven. And the powers of the heavens shall be shaken; meaning all the ordinances of the legal dispensation; which shaking, and even removing of them, were foretold by Haggai 2:6 NIV and explained by the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews, Hebrews 12:26 whereby room and way were made for Gospel ordinances to take place, and be established; which shall not be shaken, so as to be removed, but remain till the second coming of Christ.

Hag 2:6 GWT "This is what the LORD of Armies says: Once again, in a little while, I am going to shake the sky and the earth, the sea and the dry land.
Heb 12:26 GWT When God spoke to your ancestors, his voice shook the earth. But now he has promised, "Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the sky."

who is to stand up and lift their heads up?

Answer: Born again Christians are the one's to stand up and lift their heads up, thus the word "redemption".

what rebellion is he talking about?

Answer: I believe the rebellion is the falling away and apostasy of the church.

what is the day of the Lord?

Answer: I believe three things occur inside the day of the Lord. (1) The Apostasy (2) The Antichrist revealed (3) The Rapture (4) Then God's Wrath (trumpets and bowls). I believe the sixth seal happens on the same day as the rapture..

Rev 6:17 NIV For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”
Rev 8:1 NIV When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.

The great day is the day of the Lord and his wrath of trumpets and bowls, and we can see that things are moving pretty fast as in 30 minutes between seal 6 and 7. - ATP
 

JesusIsFaithful

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2015
1,765
438
83
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
ATP said:
Matt 18:10-17 has nothing to do with the rapture.


1 Cor 5:5 has nothing to do with the rapture.


1 Cor 5:6-13 has nothing to do with the rapture.

You've taken scriptures about the parable of the wandering sheep, dealing with sin in the church and incest and have taken them out of context.

- ATP
The scriptures regarding excommunication do and will be applied at the pre trib rapture because that is when God will judge His House first as 1 Peter 4:17-19 testify of. And the punishment is being excommunicated from attending the Marriage Supper above. As Jesus taught for the church to do; so will He do. You really think He is not going to do what the church fail to do? And 1 Peter 4:19 also promises that He is our faithful Creator in doing a good job in keeping the souls of those unrepentant and astrayed saints left behind to suffer the coming fire on the earth and the subsequent great tribulation.
 

ATP

New Member
Jan 3, 2015
3,264
49
0
U.S.A.
JesusIsFaithful said:
The scriptures regarding excommunication do and will be applied at the pre trib rapture because that is when God will judge His House first as 1 Peter 4:17-19 testify of. And the punishment is being excommunicated from attending the Marriage Supper above. As Jesus taught for the church to do; so will He do. You really think He is not going to do what the church fail to do? And 1 Peter 4:19 also promises that He is our faithful Creator in doing a good job in keeping the souls of those unrepentant and astrayed saints left behind to suffer the coming fire on the earth and the subsequent great tribulation.
Gotcha.