Why The Pre Trib Rapture Is God's Judgment On His House First

ATP says: What if I were to say there is no 7 years tribulation? Quote.

In one way, you are right; the Great Tribulation actually will only last for 3 1/2 years.
It is the Seven year treaty of peace between the Leader of the One World Govt, Rev 17:13, Daniel 9:27 and 'the many' - who are the majority of the citizens of Beulah. They are the righteous people who gather soon after the Lord clears the entire Middle east area by His fiery judgement/punishment, triggered by and attack by an Islamic confederation on Israel. Psalm 83, Rev. 6:12-17 and over 100 other prophesies.
The first 3 1/2 years of this treaty will be peaceful, only when the Leader, the Anti-Christ comes to J,lem and sits in the Temple, does the GT commence.

Your notion that the 70th 'week' must follow the 69th, is not supported by history or the Bible; Daniel 9:25-26....after 69 weeks Jesus is removed and an invading prince, Titus, will conquer and destroy Jerusalem. That there is a long gap between the Crucifixion and now, we know from hindsight; for that is what has happened. You cannot fit what is described in verse 27 after 33 CE, it remains to be fulfilled in the future.

Using commentators in an attempt to prove your idea of Christ being the confirmer of the treaty, and calling it a 'Covenant', is simply preterist falsehood.

keras said:

ATP says: What if I were to say there is no 7 years tribulation? Quote.

In one way, you are right; the Great Tribulation actually will only last for 3 1/2 years.
It is the Seven year treaty of peace between the Leader of the One World Govt, Rev 17:13, Daniel 9:27 and 'the many' - who are the majority of the citizens of Beulah. They are the righteous people who gather soon after the Lord clears the entire Middle east area by His fiery judgement/punishment, triggered by and attack by an Islamic confederation on Israel. Psalm 83, Rev. 6:12-17 and over 100 other prophesies.
The first 3 1/2 years of this treaty will be peaceful, only when the Leader, the Anti-Christ comes to J,lem and sits in the Temple, does the GT commence.

Your notion that the 70th 'week' must follow the 69th, is not supported by history or the Bible; Daniel 9:25-26....after 69 weeks Jesus is removed and an invading prince, Titus, will conquer and destroy Jerusalem. That there is a long gap between the Crucifixion and now, we know from hindsight; for that is what has happened. You cannot fit what is described in verse 27 after 33 CE, it remains to be fulfilled in the future.

Using commentators in an attempt to prove your idea of Christ being the confirmer of the treaty, and calling it a 'Covenant', is simply preterist falsehood.

Click to expand...

Hello, brother, the confusion surrounding this issue burdens my heart, so please let us lay aside commentators for a bit and focus on Scripture alone.

The Bible says that Satan (undeniably personified as the "king over all of the children of pride" Leviathan) will never make a covenant with any Arabs, Jews, or anyone else. (Job 41:4 KJV).

It is not Antichrist, but JESUS CHRIST Who is:

• the prophesied "Messenger of the covenant" (Malachi 3:1 KJV),
• the One in Whom that covenant "was confirmed before of God" (Galatians 3:17 KJV),
• the One Who came "to confirm the promises made to the fathers (Romans 15:8 KJV),
• the One Who held out the cup and said, "For this is My blood of the new (covenant) testament" (Matthew 26:28 KJV),
• and finally, the One Who was to "confirm the covenant with many for one week".

It was Jesus Christ, not Antichrist, who confirmed "the covenant with many for one week" by way of Hebrews 2:3 KJV: "How shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by them that heard Him", which means:

1) Jesus confirmed the covenant of salvation for 3 1/2 years through His own ministry
2) and then He continued to confirm that covenant of salvation for another 3 1/2 years through the ministry of Peter, John, James, and the rest of "them that heard Him".

Brother, let's be honest. Protestant Historicism is supported by Scripture while Jesuit Futurism, which is Biblically bankrupt, is rooted in the commentary of Jesuit Francisco Ribera, for Daniel 9:27 says absolutely nothing about the Antichrist, a rebuilt temple, or a peace treaty between Arabs and Jews. It is well known that no other Bible time prophecy employs a "gap theory" and neither does the Historicist interpretation. Jesuit Futurism and Jesuit Preterism were ideas designed not to bring about spiritual enlightenment, but to deflect the Protestant fingers of accusation to the past, to the future, ANYWHERE but from the Papacy and you like so many others have swallowed it hook, line, and sinker. Please study why the Historicists believed what they did. May God bless us one and all.

Phoneman777 said:

Daniel 9:27 says absolutely nothing about the Antichrist, a rebuilt temple, or a peace treaty between Arabs and Jews. It is well known that no other Bible time prophecy employs a "gap theory" and neither does the Historicist interpretation.

Click to expand...

I would have to agree here.

ATP, we have a confusion over the '7 year peace treaty' and the 'new Covenant'. They are two separate things. Your attempt to fit the 7 years over the first Advent of Jesus doesn't wash. There is no significant date for its completion.
That there will be tremendous happenings before He Returns, is told us in all the Bible prophesies. Ignore them or place them in the past at your peril.

To agree with Phoneman that Daniel 9:27 doesn't say anything about a gap or a treaty between Arabs and Jews, etc, just shows a serious lack of Bible study.
The gap of nearly 2000 years has occurred, that is a given. Now, as many prophesies remain unfulfilled: God will act to correct His creation, Isaiah 42:14-15, Jesus will come again and reign in His glory. Acts 1:11, Matthew 24:30
As for that peace treaty, Arabs and Jews aren't mentioned because it isn't between them. It is between New Israel [Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5] and the One World Govt., led by the A.C. It will be 'a treaty with death', Isaiah 28:18, but those who refuse to agree with it and 'remain faithful to their God', Daniel 11:32 will be taken to a place of safety. Rev 12

keras said:

ATP, we have a confusion over the '7 year peace treaty' and the 'new Covenant'. They are two separate things. Your attempt to fit the 7 years over the first Advent of Jesus doesn't wash. There is no significant date for its completion.
That there will be tremendous happenings before He Returns, is told us in all the Bible prophesies. Ignore them or place them in the past at your peril.

To agree with Phoneman that Daniel 9:27 doesn't say anything about a gap or a treaty between Arabs and Jews, etc, just shows a serious lack of Bible study.

Click to expand...

Well that's the thing.
If you look at Dan 9:27 as already complete, then there is no 7 year peace treaty.
We already confirmed the Great Tribulation is only 3.5 years and not 7.
When does the word "covenant" ever apply to the Antichrist?

JesusIsFaithful said:

And yet scripture says that nobody will know the day nor the hour..

Click to expand...

If Matt 24:36 says we will not know the day, then why does 1 Thess 5:4 says we will know the day. Again these two scriptures refer to nonbelievers not knowing, and has nothing to do with believers. The "Days of Noah" describe the flesh of the world, but scripture clearly states that we are no longer of this world.

1 Thess 5:1-4 NIV Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

Matt 24:36-39 NIV “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,f but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

JesusIsFaithful said:

May I ask when does God judge His House first?

Click to expand...

Depends on your timing of judgment. In the afterlife, believers have already been judged, at the cross by accepting Jesus as Savior.

Rom 8 NIV Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,
John 3:18 NIV Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
Rom 10:9 NIV If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

JesusIsFaithful said:

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

With the chapter starting out like this; it makes one wonder how a believer would need this guidline during the great tribulation when he needs the mark of the beast to run with sinners. The way Peter was going, believers were to be always ready in the times they are living now when they can run with sinners because they are not under the mark of the beast system yet.

1 Peter 4:1Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. 3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: 4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: 5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. 7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

Click to expand...

There are two types of judgments...
(1) Judgment at the Bema Seat in the afterlife and (2) judgment as in chastising and discipline in this life.
1 Peter 4 is referring to chastising and disciplining, similar to Heb 12:4-13.
You're confusing the judgment of this life to the judgment of the afterlife. - ATP

Before I respond, do you believe Rev 6 takes place inside the Seven Year Trib?

Click to expand...

Since I do not believe in a 7 year tribulation, no.

Wormwood said:

Since I do not believe in a 7 year tribulation, no.

Click to expand...

I don't either, not any more. I've been doing some research. There is however a 3.5 Year Great Tribulation to come..

Dan 7:25 NIV He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.

Dan 12:7 NIV The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, "It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed."

Rev 11:2-3 NIV But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."

Rev 12:6 NIV The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

Rev 12:14 NIV The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach.

Rev 13:5 NIV The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months.

JesusIsFaithful said:

And yet scripture says that nobody will know the day nor the hour, but Satan will know when to have his armies ready & waiting for Him when He comes?

Therefore I submit that you guys need to reread His warnings to believers about readiness since they are given to believers that would be ensnared by the cares of this life which is not consistent for left behind saints in the duration of the "oppressive" and "persecuting" great tribulation.


All the warnings of Jesus to His disciples about preparing and readiness.

Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Think the cares of this life is a snare now? Yes. Think the cares of life during the great tribulation will be a snare to believers? No.

So what is Jesus warning about for believers to watch and to pray to escape what is coming to pass other than the coming great tribulation?

Click to expand...

The "day of the Lord" that comes as a thief in the night is the simultaneous Second Coming destruction of the earth and Rapture of the saints, for which we are to "watch and be ready". The tribulation is the Seven Last Plagues which we will go through protected by God (just as Noah's family went through the flood, the Israelites went through the Seven Last Plagues, Daniel went through the lion's den and the 3 Hebrew worthies went through the fiery furnace. Honestly, if one's faith is too weak to think God can save him from a plague or the mouth of a lion, does he really have faith enough to believe He can save his soul from the penalty of sin?

Phoneman777 said:

The "day of the Lord" that comes as a thief in the night is the simultaneous Second Coming destruction of the earth and Rapture of the saints, for which we are to "watch and be ready". The tribulation is the Seven Last Plagues which we will go through protected by God (just as Noah's family went through the flood, the Israelites went through the Seven Last Plagues, Daniel went through the lion's den and the 3 Hebrew worthies went through the fiery furnace. Honestly, if one's faith is too weak to think God can save him from a plague or the mouth of a lion, does he really have faith enough to believe He can save his soul from the penalty of sin?

Click to expand...

Christians will also have to go through those seven seals too. Probably not in our lifetime, but I can't imagine.

ATP,

I do not believe the book of Revelation is written in chronological fashion. I believe it is a series of revelations depicting the same thing from different perspectives. Jesus is portrayed as returning and final judgment occurs many times in Revelation. Thus, there are five cyclical visions (ch. 4-7, 8-11, 12-14, 15-19, 20-22) and every one of them ends in some kind of final judgment or redemption of the faithful. I don't have time at the moment to go into the 3.5 years, but I believe them to be symbolic. Daniel's 70 weeks ends with 3.5 years to spare in Daniel 9...with the focus on the death of Christ to put an end to sin, etc. That final 3.5 years is a symbolic period that moves from the resurrection of Christ through tribulation until the second coming. We ARE in the tribulation and we have been in it since the resurrection. I have no doubt persecution will get worse, but I think the whole dispensational model is ill-founded and has been foreign to the Church's understanding of Revelation for the first 1800 years of its existence.

Jesus said the Great Tribulation was a specific and unique time that begins at the midpoint abomination as mentioned by Daniel, and that it "shortened" i.e., ends abruptly (and so would not last the length of the rest of the one 'seven') so that it effectively ends with the sun/moon/star event heralding the Day of the Lord.

Mt 24:21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

This time is unequaled: it has nothing like it. That makes it specific and unique.
We have had persecution. We have persecution now. However, the Great Tribulation will exceed both.

JesusIsFaithful said:

I cannot imagine saints sleeping during the great tribulation to not be watching and ready; and with it being seven years long great tribulation, saints would be more on their toes expecting deliverance from all this persecution so I doubt the references to Him coming like a thief in the night has anything to do for the saints IN the great tribulation.

Click to expand...

I need your thoughts on something. I noticed verse 9 says we are not appointed to suffer wrath, and verse 10 says he died so that we may live together with him. Now, these two verse are in the same category as the Day of the Lord. So, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't God's wrath the trumpets and bowls in the 3.5 year trib? And doesn't verse 10 describe the first resurrection and rapture at the same time, awake or asleep and living together with him? In this case Pre-Trib might possibly be true. So if I stand corrected, in the beginning of the 3.5 Year Great Trib, the Antichrist reveals himself first (2 Thess 2:3-4) and maybe minutes or days after,...the first resurrection occurs then rapture right after. Keep in mind I'm still researching.

9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

The Day of the Lord

1 Thess 5:1-11 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

4But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.

Wormwood said:

Daniel's 70 weeks ends with 3.5 years to spare in Daniel 9..

Click to expand...

I believe Dan 9:27 is already complete. When does the word "covenant" in the Bible ever apply to the Antichrist?

I believe Dan 9:27 is already complete. When does the word "covenant" in the Bible ever apply to the Antichrist?

Click to expand...

I don't believe it does apply to the Antichrist. I don't even think there will be "the Antichrist." I think there are many antichrists and there have been since the Apostles.

This time is unequaled: it has nothing like it. That makes it specific and unique.
We have had persecution. We have persecution now. However, the Great Tribulation will exceed both.

Click to expand...

Marcus, I believe Jesus is speaking of the final destruction of the Temple in 70AD there. The context there seems to clearly reference the destruction of the Temple.

Wormwood said:

I don't believe it does apply to the Antichrist. I don't even think there will be "the Antichrist." I think there are many antichrists and there have been since the Apostles.

Click to expand...

But 2 Thess 2:3 states that there will be a "man" of lawlessness. There is the "spirit" of the antichrist and then there is the "man" himself that sets up his own personal temple.

2 Thess 2:1-4 NIV Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

JesusIsFaithful said:

Since God is judging His House first; then the wrath of God will fall on the children of disobedience..

Click to expand...

But the children of disobedience is a term that refers to the spirit of the antichrist, nonbelievers. It has nothing to do with believers.

Eph 2:1-10 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesha and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

JesusIsFaithful said:

Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

This is where Esau of losing his birthroght for a meal and the prodigal son that gave up his inheritance for wild living comes in; this is why unrepentant saints will be left behind at the pre trib rapture event.

Click to expand...

I would submit that Eph 5:5-7 is about nonbelievers. Notice 1 Cor 6:11 is speaking in past tense, "And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified," Also notice how we are washed, you were sanctified, you were justified. HOW?? By believing in the name of Jesus Christ. "Believing" is only done once Rom 10:9-10 NIV.

1 Cor 6:9-11 NIV Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

If these passages were speaking about believers than that would mean we could lose our salvation, and that's simply not true. Esau existed before the resurrection of Christ. There was no indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the OT.

JesusIsFaithful said:

All it takes for any saved believer is to trust Jesus now as their Good Shepherd to help them to discern and to depart from iniquity in laying aside every weight & sin in running that race as He will finish it to His glory as the crowns we receive are His crowning achievements in us..

Click to expand...

Well said, believing only comes once Rom 10:9-10 NIV.

Wormwood said:

Marcus, I believe Jesus is speaking of the final destruction of the Temple in 70AD there. The context there seems to clearly reference the destruction of the Temple.

Click to expand...

You can believe what you like, but in order for what you believe to be true, then the first Jewish Revolt, which didn't add up to even the status of conflict of outright war during the Pax Romana, was worse than WWII and the Holocaust... which is wasn't.

I am always wary when someone tells me that some aspect of prophecy is "clear."