Why The Pre Trib Rapture Is God's Judgment On His House First

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Marcus O'Reillius

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JesusIsFaithful said:
There is only one rapture, and that is before the great tribulation; that's Christ the firstfruits.
The 144,000 are called the firstfruits, and of the Harvest and their timing in it; I'd say they were.

However; Jesus says otherwise than you.

Midpoint Abomination
Great Tribulation
Sun/moon/star event
Day of the Lord
Rapture.

That's the Olivet Discourse sequence of events in Mt 24:15-31.
 

StanJ

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The 144,000 are God's plan to witness to ALL the lost tribes of Israel and save them to fulfill His promise to them.
That will be done during the tribulation.
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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The Great Tribulation ends with the Day of the Lord, when Jesus returns anew.

The 144,000 are not witnesses to Israel like "Elders" of the LDS, they never leave Jesus' side.

Rev 14:4 These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.

As such they are with Him as He marches out His Wrath upon Israel on the Day of the Lord as per Joel 2.

For the day of the Lord is coming;
Surely it is near,

2 A day of darkness and gloom,
A day of clouds and thick darkness.
As the dawn is spread over the mountains,
So there is a great and mighty people;
There has never been anything like it,
Nor will there be again after it

To the years of many generations.

3 A fire consumes before them
And behind them a flame burns.
The land is like the garden of Eden before them
But a desolate wilderness behind them,
And nothing at all escapes them.

4 Their appearance is like the appearance of horses;
And like war horses, so they run.

5 With a noise as of chariots
They leap on the tops of the mountains,
Like the crackling of a flame of fire consuming the stubble,
Like a mighty people arranged for battle.

6 Before them the people are in anguish;
All faces turn pale.

7 They run like mighty men,
They climb the wall like soldiers;
And they each march in line,
Nor do they deviate from their paths.

8 They do not crowd each other,
They march everyone in his path;
When they burst through the defenses,
They do not break ranks.

9 They rush on the city,
They run on the wall;
They climb into the houses,
They enter through the windows like a thief.

10 Before them the earth quakes,
The heavens tremble,
The sun and the moon grow dark
And the stars lose their brightness.

11 The Lord utters His voice before His army;
Surely His camp is very great,
For strong is he who carries out His word.
The day of the Lord is indeed great and very awesome,
 

JesusIsFaithful

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ATP said:
You quoted 2 Tim 2:19-21, but have not read the passage in its full context. It's full context is verse 14 through 26.

1. "Departed from the truth" is referring to nonbelievers. Rom 1:18-32 NIV
2. Either you confess the name of the Lord or not Rom 10:9-10 NIV. Hymenaeus and Philetus did not.
3. Hymenaeus and Philetus needed to repent because they were without knowledge of the truth.

17Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
18who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.
19Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

25Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,

I would submit that Esau existed in the Old Testament, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit had not occurred then.

What do I mean by that, when I say there was no indwelling of the Holy Spirit then. What am I saying here?
Very good question, but let us address the idea of how God's wrath can fall on believers with the Holy Ghost.

1 Corinthians 3:10-17 warns believers about how they build on that foundation, but verses 16-17 shows God issuing punishment for defiling the temple of God which is our physical body, which He will destroy; therefore we are talking about believers since unsaved non-believers would never had the promise of the forever indwelling Holy Ghost in them for coming to & believing in Jesus Christ.

Getting back to your point in 2 Tim. 2:17-21; you had highlighted the first part of verse 18, but not the last part where by departed from truth, destroyed the faith of some in your NIV. Now consider that last part of verse 18 because you cannot destroy or as the KJV has it, overcome the faith unless these believers had it.

Does that mean He is no longer in those former believers? No, because in 2 Timothy 2:11-13, this faithful saying testify that any one denying Him, and that includes those that are frmer believers, they will be denied which I will apply as at happening at the pre trib rapture, but verse 13 testify that though they believe not, He still abides in them which brings us down to verses 18-21 testifying that God knows them that are His, and He is calling those, even Hymenaeus and Philetus, to depart from iniquity.

Yes, I agree that Esau did not have the Holy Ghost at that time, but N.T. referenced him because the consequences of losing his birthright over a meal is the same warning applied to believers that trade their first inheritance for wild living as the prodigal son had done.... and I point out that you have to be His in the first place to have an inheritance that a saved believer could lose, but yet like the prodigal son, they are still sons.

And so ties in with every saved believer whom will receive the kingdom of heaven which cannot be removed; but HOW will they receive the kingdom of heaven is the question; as a vessel unto honour which is a celestiel inheritance as being vessels of gold and silver OR as a vessel unto dishonour which is a terrestriel inheritance for failing to depart from iniquity wherein the potter says to the clay that formed it, depart from Him that work iniquity; they are reprobate; unapproved: disqualified; and thus they be left behind & becomes vessels unto dishonour IN HIS HOUSE. We can all agree that in His Father's mansion, there are no unbelievers there.
 

Wormwood

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Actually not factual WW....Mounce says; By the combination of this verb with other terms, a variety of meaning results, which, however, is due, not to a change of meaning in the verb, but to the adjuncts. Ὁ ἐρχόμενος, He who is coming, the expected Messiah.

Paul is indeed referring to FUTURE events.
It is factual StanJ. Let me post the section in question and walk through it with you. I will use the ESV because it more appropriately designates the verbs.

“Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.” (2 Thessalonians 2:1–8, ESV)
1. This section is about the Thessalonians being presently alarmed about missing "the day of the Lord." This is a present concern Paul is addressing.
2. Paul says it hasn't come yet, but will some day in the future. However, the "rebellion" must come first and the "man of lawlessness" revealed.
3. This man of lawlessness "opposes" and "exalts" himself and is "proclaiming" himself to be God. These are all present participles. Now there are two options here. First, Paul could be saying that these things will be happening on "that day." However, this is far from evident and certainly not a reason to translate present participles into the future tense. It is also equally, and perhaps even more likely that the son of destruction is being described as one who is presently opposing, exalting and proclaiming himself to be God. In fact, verse 4 is a dependent clause that is describing the "son of destruction" in verse 3. It is descriptive rather than predictive.

In any event, I am not in error. Mounce is NOT saying in your quote that the verbs have changed their tense with the adjuncts. He is saying it could be understood to refer to a future event even though they are clearly present participles. The problem with the NIV is that it ONLY allows for this interpretation because it imposes the translators interpretation by falsely implanting future tense verbs rather than allowing the context to determine how we understand the participles (as the ESV has done). Paul is NOT "indeed referring to future events." He is referring to a future event (the day of the Lord) but is quite possible describing the revealing of one who is presently engaged in particular actions.

Here is WHY I think the latter is most likely. Remember, Paul is trying to help comfort the Thessalonians who feel they missed the day of the Lord or are worried they might miss that day. For Paul to mention some mysterious figure that no one knows that could possible engage in some act hundreds of miles away in the Temple that they could possibly be oblivious to would be of NO comfort to these people in this situation. Its like me saying, "Hey guys, don't worry that you will miss the party. We wont have our party until a mysterious figure arrives and he paints some graffiti on the Lincoln Monument in Washington DC!" Now how comforting would that be to you? Probably not much since you live a long ways from Washington DC and, if you don't have TV would be completely oblivious to any such action. So, you'd still feel like you could quite likely miss the party.

However, if Paul is describing the present action of a hidden individual that will ultimately cease when Christ comes and destroys him, then that would be completely different. If the "man of sin" is currently at work in all the lawlessness, godlessness and false worship in the world and that work will be put to an end when Christ returns (i.e. sin, evil and false worship will be destroyed) then this IS a comforting message. Essentially, Paul is saying, "Look, as long as evil and false worship reigns in the world, then the "man of lawlessness" has not been overthrown. You will know when Christ returns because the era of the lawless one will come to an end and righteousness will abound." Now this WOULD be of great comfort to the Thessalonians. Rather than looking for a mystery figure hundreds of miles away, they are looking for the end of lawlessness in the world.

Therefore, not only grammatically (seeing that the present participles are part of a dependent clause describing the lawless one) but also contextually, it does NOT make sense to see the activity of the lawless one as future tense. The return of Christ is a future event, but the activity of the lawless one was taking place in Paul's day and would cease when Christ returns. That is how the people would know the day of the Lord had come.



.
 

JesusIsFaithful

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Marcus O'Reillius said:
The 144,000 are called the firstfruits, and of the Harvest and their timing in it; I'd say they were.
If you are referring to Revelations 14th chapter, do consider that the firstfruits that are mentioned in Heaven are virgin men redeemed from the earth to serve as His personal choir; but that is not to say that they were the only ones raptured. This was just referencing those saints of the pre trib raptured saints that were virgin men that will be serving as His personal choir in verses 1-5.

After the pre trib rapture event; the first angel spreads the gospel everywhere which fulfills the prophesy in Matthew 24:14 as to when the end shall come in verses 6 & 7, and that preceded the abomination.

Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Can we agree now that this is the time where the falling away from the faith has occurred? Can we agree that faith is hard to find with all of this misinformations and errant modern Bible versions in the world? So enduring to the end in keeping the faith is the good fight.

The reward for that good fight is the pre trib rapture and then this gospel shall be preached by that angel in Revelations 14:6-7 every where before the event that shall eventually come of the abomination.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Going back to Revelations 14th chapter, we shall see what precedes the abomination event. The second angel reports the fall of Babylon; its detail goes on further into Revelations 18th chapter with saints being made to rest from their labour of unbeliefs as their works shall follow them into the dust, with an important note on the voice of the bride & bridegrrom will no longer be heard in her any more because the door to the Marriage Supper is now shut.

Then the third angel warns every body in the world about the eternal consequence for taking the mark of the beast which is the lake of fire; That is how quick a global calamity will fall after the rapture as this fire that comes on the earth burning up a third of the earth sets up the hour of trial that shall try all on the earth because they will all know the gospel and they will all know the eternal punishment for taking the mark of the beast. No one will be have an excuse for not knowing.

However; Jesus says otherwise than you.

Midpoint Abomination
Great Tribulation
Sun/moon/star event
Day of the Lord
Rapture.

That's the Olivet Discourse sequence of events in Mt 24:15-31.
The problem with Matthew 24 th chpater as it is with the Book of Revelations, the events are not given in chronological order as His disciples had asked three questions to Jesus for Him to answer. We all need His wisdom as to how He answered those questions and in what order.

Matthew 24:1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The disciples were asking three questions and they are not all about the same event.

I read those questions as when will the Temple they are looking at will fall as one event, when He will come for them as the Bridegroom as the other event, and when the end of the world as they know it shall come as the other event. Jesus describing certain key signs leading up to each of those events has to be discernd with His wisdom as well as which event He is talking about as He did go back and forth signifying each of those events as being separate from the other in leading up to them.

StanJ said:
The 144,000 are God's plan to witness to ALL the lost tribes of Israel and save them to fulfill His promise to them. That will be done during the tribulation.

Marcus O'Reillius said:
The Great Tribulation ends with the Day of the Lord, when Jesus returns anew.

The 144,000 are not witnesses to Israel like "Elders" of the LDS, they never leave Jesus' side.

Rev 14:4 These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.

As such they are with Him as He marches out His Wrath upon Israel on the Day of the Lord as per Joel 2.

For the day of the Lord is coming;
Surely it is near,

2 A day of darkness and gloom,
A day of clouds and thick darkness.
As the dawn is spread over the mountains,
So there is a great and mighty people;
There has never been anything like it,
Nor will there be again after it

To the years of many generations.

3 A fire consumes before them
And behind them a flame burns.
The land is like the garden of Eden before them
But a desolate wilderness behind them,
And nothing at all escapes them.

4 Their appearance is like the appearance of horses;
And like war horses, so they run.

5 With a noise as of chariots
They leap on the tops of the mountains,
Like the crackling of a flame of fire consuming the stubble,
Like a mighty people arranged for battle.

6 Before them the people are in anguish;
All faces turn pale.

7 They run like mighty men,
They climb the wall like soldiers;
And they each march in line,
Nor do they deviate from their paths.

8 They do not crowd each other,
They march everyone in his path;
When they burst through the defenses,
They do not break ranks.

9 They rush on the city,
They run on the wall;
They climb into the houses,
They enter through the windows like a thief.

10 Before them the earth quakes,
The heavens tremble,
The sun and the moon grow dark
And the stars lose their brightness.

11 The Lord utters His voice before His army;
Surely His camp is very great,
For strong is he who carries out His word.
The day of the Lord is indeed great and very awesome,
There are actually two different kind of 144,000 being employed here.

The 144,000 in Revelations 14th chapter are a part of the raptured saints, signified out of all of them that these 144,000 will serve as His personal choir, following Him around wherever He goes.

The other are the 144,000 witnesses of the Jews that will be raised up after the pre trib rapture and the everlasting gospel that has been spread by the first angel will obviously make converts of them.

These two 144,000's are not one and the same.
 

StanJ

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Wormwood said:
It is factual StanJ. Let me post the section in question and walk through it with you. I will use the ESV because it more appropriately designates the verbs.


1. This section is about the Thessalonians being presently alarmed about missing "the day of the Lord." This is a present concern Paul is addressing.
2. Paul says it hasn't come yet, but will some day in the future. However, the "rebellion" must come first and the "man of lawlessness" revealed.
3. This man of lawlessness "opposes" and "exalts" himself and is "proclaiming" himself to be God. These are all present participles. Now there are two options here. First, Paul could be saying that these things will be happening on "that day." However, this is far from evident and certainly not a reason to translate present participles into the future tense. It is also equally, and perhaps even more likely that the son of destruction is being described as one who is presently opposing, exalting and proclaiming himself to be God. In fact, verse 4 is a dependent clause that is describing the "son of destruction" in verse 3. It is descriptive rather than predictive.

In any event, I am not in error. Mounce is NOT saying in your quote that the verbs have changed their tense with the adjuncts. He is saying it could be understood to refer to a future event even though they are clearly present participles. The problem with the NIV is that it ONLY allows for this interpretation because it imposes the translators interpretation by falsely implanting future tense verbs rather than allowing the context to determine how we understand the participles (as the ESV has done). Paul is NOT "indeed referring to future events." He is referring to a future event (the day of the Lord) but is quite possible describing the revealing of one who is presently engaged in particular actions.

Here is WHY I think the latter is most likely. Remember, Paul is trying to help comfort the Thessalonians who feel they missed the day of the Lord or are worried they might miss that day. For Paul to mention some mysterious figure that no one knows that could possible engage in some act hundreds of miles away in the Temple that they could possibly be oblivious to would be of NO comfort to these people in this situation. Its like me saying, "Hey guys, don't worry that you will miss the party. We wont have our party until a mysterious figure arrives and he paints some graffiti on the Lincoln Monument in Washington DC!" Now how comforting would that be to you? Probably not much since you live a long ways from Washington DC and, if you don't have TV would be completely oblivious to any such action. So, you'd still feel like you could quite likely miss the party.

However, if Paul is describing the present action of a hidden individual that will ultimately cease when Christ comes and destroys him, then that would be completely different. If the "man of sin" is currently at work in all the lawlessness, godlessness and false worship in the world and that work will be put to an end when Christ returns (i.e. sin, evil and false worship will be destroyed) then this IS a comforting message. Essentially, Paul is saying, "Look, as long as evil and false worship reigns in the world, then the "man of lawlessness" has not been overthrown. You will know when Christ returns because the era of the lawless one will come to an end and righteousness will abound." Now this WOULD be of great comfort to the Thessalonians. Rather than looking for a mystery figure hundreds of miles away, they are looking for the end of lawlessness in the world.

Therefore, not only grammatically (seeing that the present participles are part of a dependent clause describing the lawless one) but also contextually, it does NOT make sense to see the activity of the lawless one as future tense. The return of Christ is a future event, but the activity of the lawless one was taking place in Paul's day and would cease when Christ returns. That is how the people would know the day of the Lord had come.



.
What translation you use is irrelevant...the Greek is. As far as the English is concerned I don't see your assertion in ANY English translation. Regardless as to whether the issue was current, the event if in the future and obviously well after John wrote Revelation.
Mounce was involved in the NIV translation, both he and his father. I am sure he understands the tenses being used, which is why it is translated as future.
The NIV is NOT the only translation that renders it future tense.... https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thess%202%3A3&version=NET;NASB;ISV;NRSV;MOUNCE

All you've done above is assume, based on your POV, which seems a tad Preterist to me and eisegetical at best.

As verses 9 & 10 clearly show, their will be false signs and wonders, and the one who holds him back prevents his coming and as the Holy Spirit is still here and won't leave until Jesus' return, this obviously is in the future. Once the Holy Spirit is withdrawn from the earth, the man of lawlessness/anti-Christ, will manifest himself. As no believers will be here to resist him, because the Day of the Lord / return of Christ, precedes his manifestation, again it has to be in the future. The problem with many in Paul's day and also with John in Revelation, was the feeling of immanency. Nothing wrong with that and probably more of us should live in that mindset, but it obviously wasn't, based on the fact that we find ourselves still here 2000 years later.

It also serves to point out that this scripture cannot be interpreted in a vacuum. It has to be taken into account with all other scripture on the subject, which includes 1 Thess 4:13-18, which also has NOT transpired.
JesusIsFaithful said:
There are actually two different kind of 144,000 being employed here.

The 144,000 in Revelations 14th chapter are a part of the raptured saints, signified out of all of them that these 144,000 will serve as His personal choir, following Him around wherever He goes.

The other are the 144,000 witnesses of the Jews that will be raised up after the pre trib rapture and the everlasting gospel that has been spread by the first angel will obviously make converts of them.

These two 144,000's are not one and the same.
They are the same group, referred to in Rev 7 and 14. They are sealed in chapter 7 v4 and that seal is depicted in chapter 14 v1.
Those in Rev 7 are the first fruits depicted in Rev 14:4
 

JesusIsFaithful

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StanJ said:
They are the same group, referred to in Rev 7 and 14. They are sealed in chapter 7 v4 and that seal is depicted in chapter 14 v1.
Those in Rev 7 are the first fruits depicted in Rev 14:4
The event in Revelations 14th chapter is before the three angels' messages event that sets up the hour of trial that shall try all upon the earth for the coming great tribulation. That means these 144,000 virgin men were redeemed from the earth before those three angels gave their messages. Those 144,000 virgin men redeemed FROM the earth are no longer ON the earth before the angels gave their messages.

The 144,000 in Revelations 7th chapter testify of these being 12,000 from each tribe of Israel and serving as witnesses for the great tribulation.

You cannot read the Book of Revelations as if it is given in chronological order. Proof of that is in Revelations 18th chapter as it gives in detail of the fall of Babylon heralded by the second angel which was his message in Revelations 14:8.
 

StanJ

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JesusIsFaithful said:
The event in Revelations 14th chapter is before the three angels' messages event that sets up the hour of trial that shall try all upon the earth for the coming great tribulation. That means these 144,000 virgin men were redeemed from the earth before those three angels gave their messages. Those 144,000 virgin men redeemed FROM the earth are no longer ON the earth before the angels gave their messages.

The 144,000 in Revelations 7th chapter testify of these being 12,000 from each tribe of Israel and serving as witnesses for the great tribulation.

You cannot read the Book of Revelations as if it is given in chronological order. Proof of that is in Revelations 18th chapter as it gives in detail of the fall of Babylon heralded by the second angel which was his message in Revelations 14:8.
As the entire book of Revelation is post Jesus' return, I have no idea what you are trying to delineate?
 

JesusIsFaithful

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StanJ said:
As the entire book of Revelation is post Jesus' return, I have no idea what you are trying to delineate?
Then you missed the point of why God was addressing the seven churches in Revelations in the beginning in preparing themselves to be ready for the Bridegroom to avoid the events of the coming fire on the earth and the subsequent great tribulation.

One church at Thyatira was give the warning to repent or be cast into the great tribulation.

Another church at Philadelphia was exhorted to keep fast what they have been taught though having little strength and they shall be kept from the hour of trial that shall try all on the earth which is the great tribulation.

Revelations ended with the call from Him to come.

Revelations 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. 18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. 21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. KJV only

Verse 18 above refers to being left behind to face the plagues of the great tribulation for adding to His words,

Verse 19 above refers to the loss of that first inheritance of having a place in the city of God and thus left behind at the pre trib rapture event. It is important to note that his name was not taken out, but his part which is having a place in the city of God is taken out. This is why pre raptured saints lives in the city and being liken unto angels that never die and no longer marry nor given in marriage, thus a glorified celestiel inheritance.

Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

And those left behind shall be serving the King of kings as priests and kings spread out all over the earth that no longer has any sea in it. Those kings and priests will be marrying and given in marriage because by example to the coming generations, if they cannot manage their own house, how can they manage the kingdom of God or even the house of God? So is the glory of the terrestriel inheritance where the power of the second death has none over them, but is highly suggestive that they are still subjected to physical death being a terrestriel body, albeit a glorified one.

1 Timothy 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

So God is coming to judge His House first at the pre trib rapture event from which the warning of His coming like a thief in the night applies to the here and now, not halfway through the great tribulation or towards the end of the great tribulation. Revelations is God prepping the churches to avoid the events of the great tribulation.
 

ATP

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JesusIsFaithful said:
Getting back to your point in 2 Tim. 2:17-21; you had highlighted the first part of verse 18, but not the last part where by departed from truth, destroyed the faith of some in your NIV. Now consider that last part of verse 18 because you cannot destroy or as the KJV has it, overcome the faith unless these believers had it.
Where does it say they had overcome the faith, where does it say they had it in the first place?? They're not overcoming the faith here. It's the exact opposite. They are overthrowing the faith of other people.

2 Tim 2:18 KJV Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

JesusIsFaithful said:
but HOW will they receive the kingdom of heaven is the question; as a vessel unto honour which is a celestiel inheritance as being vessels of gold and silver OR as a vessel unto dishonour which is a terrestriel inheritance for failing to depart from iniquity wherein the potter says to the clay that formed it, depart from Him that work iniquity; they are reprobate; unapproved: disqualified; and thus they be left behind & becomes vessels unto dishonour IN HIS HOUSE. We can all agree that in His Father's mansion, there are no unbelievers there.
You're making this topic more difficult than it really is. The root of your belief is the problem. If your root is false then you will take scriptures out of context day after day. Similar to how some try to prove OSAS is false. The root of your belief is that believers will be left behind at rapture, and that is simply not true. Either you're a believer or not. The words (reprobate, unapproved, disqualified, dishonor, apostate) all represent unsaved nonbelievers. In order to understand this you would need to fix your root first.
Wormwood said:
It is factual StanJ. Let me post the section in question and walk through it with you. I will use the ESV because it more appropriately designates the verbs.


1. This section is about the Thessalonians being presently alarmed about missing "the day of the Lord." This is a present concern Paul is addressing.
2. Paul says it hasn't come yet, but will some day in the future. However, the "rebellion" must come first and the "man of lawlessness" revealed.
3. This man of lawlessness "opposes" and "exalts" himself and is "proclaiming" himself to be God. These are all present participles. Now there are two options here. First, Paul could be saying that these things will be happening on "that day." However, this is far from evident and certainly not a reason to translate present participles into the future tense. It is also equally, and perhaps even more likely that the son of destruction is being described as one who is presently opposing, exalting and proclaiming himself to be God. In fact, verse 4 is a dependent clause that is describing the "son of destruction" in verse 3. It is descriptive rather than predictive.

In any event, I am not in error. Mounce is NOT saying in your quote that the verbs have changed their tense with the adjuncts. He is saying it could be understood to refer to a future event even though they are clearly present participles. The problem with the NIV is that it ONLY allows for this interpretation because it imposes the translators interpretation by falsely implanting future tense verbs rather than allowing the context to determine how we understand the participles (as the ESV has done). Paul is NOT "indeed referring to future events." He is referring to a future event (the day of the Lord) but is quite possible describing the revealing of one who is presently engaged in particular actions.

Here is WHY I think the latter is most likely. Remember, Paul is trying to help comfort the Thessalonians who feel they missed the day of the Lord or are worried they might miss that day. For Paul to mention some mysterious figure that no one knows that could possible engage in some act hundreds of miles away in the Temple that they could possibly be oblivious to would be of NO comfort to these people in this situation. Its like me saying, "Hey guys, don't worry that you will miss the party. We wont have our party until a mysterious figure arrives and he paints some graffiti on the Lincoln Monument in Washington DC!" Now how comforting would that be to you? Probably not much since you live a long ways from Washington DC and, if you don't have TV would be completely oblivious to any such action. So, you'd still feel like you could quite likely miss the party.

However, if Paul is describing the present action of a hidden individual that will ultimately cease when Christ comes and destroys him, then that would be completely different. If the "man of sin" is currently at work in all the lawlessness, godlessness and false worship in the world and that work will be put to an end when Christ returns (i.e. sin, evil and false worship will be destroyed) then this IS a comforting message. Essentially, Paul is saying, "Look, as long as evil and false worship reigns in the world, then the "man of lawlessness" has not been overthrown. You will know when Christ returns because the era of the lawless one will come to an end and righteousness will abound." Now this WOULD be of great comfort to the Thessalonians. Rather than looking for a mystery figure hundreds of miles away, they are looking for the end of lawlessness in the world.

Therefore, not only grammatically (seeing that the present participles are part of a dependent clause describing the lawless one) but also contextually, it does NOT make sense to see the activity of the lawless one as future tense. The return of Christ is a future event, but the activity of the lawless one was taking place in Paul's day and would cease when Christ returns. That is how the people would know the day of the Lord had come.
What are your thoughts on the third temple in the book of Ezekiel..https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=third+temple+in+Ezekiel+antichrist
 

StanJ

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JesusIsFaithful said:
Then you missed the point of why God was addressing the seven churches in Revelations in the beginning in preparing themselves to be ready for the Bridegroom to avoid the events of the coming fire on the earth and the subsequent great tribulation.

One church at Thyatira was give the warning to repent or be cast into the great tribulation.

Another church at Philadelphia was exhorted to keep fast what they have been taught though having little strength and they shall be kept from the hour of trial that shall try all on the earth which is the great tribulation.

Revelations ended with the call from Him to come.

Revelations 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. 18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. 21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. KJV only

Verse 18 above refers to being left behind to face the plagues of the great tribulation for adding to His words,

Verse 19 above refers to the loss of that first inheritance of having a place in the city of God and thus left behind at the pre trib rapture event. It is important to note that his name was not taken out, but his part which is having a place in the city of God is taken out. This is why pre raptured saints lives in the city and being liken unto angels that never die and no longer marry nor given in marriage, thus a glorified celestiel inheritance.

Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

And those left behind shall be serving the King of kings as priests and kings spread out all over the earth that no longer has any sea in it. Those kings and priests will be marrying and given in marriage because by example to the coming generations, if they cannot manage their own house, how can they manage the kingdom of God or even the house of God? So is the glory of the terrestriel inheritance where the power of the second death has none over them, but is highly suggestive that they are still subjected to physical death being a terrestriel body, albeit a glorified one.

1 Timothy 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

So God is coming to judge His House first at the pre trib rapture event from which the warning of His coming like a thief in the night applies to the here and now, not halfway through the great tribulation or towards the end of the great tribulation. Revelations is God prepping the churches to avoid the events of the great tribulation.
Still no delineation, and Revelation is as I stated, for all those that do not get raptured in Christ. You seem to think the more you say the clearer it gets, and I'm here to tell you you're wrong. You just muddy the issue with all your verboseness.
 

JesusIsFaithful

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ATP said:
Where does it say they had overcome the faith, where does it say they had it in the first place?? They're not overcoming the faith here. It's the exact opposite. They are overthrowing the faith of other people.

2 Tim 2:18 KJV Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Poor recollection of the word does not make my point invalid. You cannot overthrow the faith of some unless they had faith. To overthrow faith is to overcome that faith and both means the same thing; losing that faith in Jesus Christ.

Here is another reference citing the same thing of losing the faith they had in the first place.

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

You cannot depart from faith unless you had that faith to begin with. This is why God is coming to judge His House first to restore the wayward to the path of righteousness for His name's sake because He is the Good Shepherd after all.

You're making this topic more difficult than it really is. The root of your belief is the problem. If your root is false then you will take scriptures out of context day after day. Similar to how some try to prove OSAS is false. The root of your belief is that believers will be left behind at rapture, and that is simply not true. Either you're a believer or not. The words (reprobate, unapproved, disqualified, dishonor, apostate) all represent unsaved nonbelievers. In order to understand this you would need to fix your root first.
But now that you have read 1 Timothy 4:1-2, what of your root understanding needs adjustment with His help? You seem to think that every believer will no matter what, will run that race by faith in their Good Shepherd in helping them to follow Jesus as His disciple in abiding in in Him & His word, and yet they had to be taught by His disciples to learn of His words to trust Him and all His promises to them as their Good Shepherd to have that hope in following Him. That is why many are called, but few are chosen to attend the Marriage Supper. Those not found abiding in Him & His words as His disciples are not chosen but cut off & become castaways.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.....16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Notice how Jesus is referring to servants that are His in differentiating how they can find themselves cut off and found himself having his "portion" with the unbelievers when He sends fire on the earth..

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?


Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

That warning above might as well not be mentioned if it was towards the unbelievers since unbelievers are not stressed to continue in goodness to be saved from the wrath that is coming on the earth.

I am not speaking against OSAS, but rather for it. Voiding faith in believers by misleading them from the truth is not the only thing that can overthrow a believer. Carnal sinful living can too.

2 Peter 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Those that profess Him but are cast out thus denying them because of iniquity that denies Him ( Titus 1:16 & 2 Timothy 2:12 ), are still His because even when they believe not any more, He still abides in them and cannot deny Himself. 2 Timothy 2:13

So OSAS is true and this is why His disciples are commanded to make disciples of other believers; to remain free from sin's dominion over their lives and keeping the faith which is the good fight from those trying to void it or overthrow it in our walk with Him.

Matthew 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. 11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. 15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

That's Jesus telling me symbolically that what we and the church failed to do to correct one astray, after the rapture in gathering the 99, He will get what is His sheep, even if it was just one that went astray to show the importance of every astrayed sheep that are His.

That is why the prodigal son that gave up his first inheritance of being the firstfruits, will find that he is still son although his first inheritance can never be had again after having been spent. OSAS remains true and why not every one that says Lord Lord, are ready to be found abiding in Him & His words as His disciples to be chosen to attend the Marriage Supper when the Bridegroom comes.

2 Peter 3: 3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
2 Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Reprobate, unapproved, and disqualified all shows the risk of not being accepted by Him to attend the Marriage Supper in His honour.

This is why His disciples are to teach saved believers to run that race as saved believers by faith in Jesus Christ as their Good Shepherd in learning of Him & His promises to them in helping them to abide in Him & His words as His disciples to be chosen.
 

Wormwood

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What translation you use is irrelevant...the Greek is. As far as the English is concerned I don't see your assertion in ANY English translation. Regardless as to whether the issue was current, the event if in the future and obviously well after John wrote Revelation.
Mounce was involved in the NIV translation, both he and his father. I am sure he understands the tenses being used, which is why it is translated as future.
The NIV is NOT the only translation that renders it future tense.... https://www.biblegat...ISV;NRSV;MOUNCE
Fair enough. The three words in Greek that I highlighted are present participles. That is a fact. Mounce is not the only Greek scholar who has translated Scripture. There are many translations that render this differently because there is too much translator bias in these verses. Its no different than the NIV translating "flesh" as "sinful nature." Its not necessarily a "bad" translation...as the thought of Paul is likely reflected, but its not how the Greek reads. The NIV does this regularly. The translators try to help the reader out to understand what they thought the author meant. I just think they missed the boat in 2 Thess. Paul makes it clear that,
“For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work." This isn't a future event but something "already" ηδη at work.

All you've done above is assume, based on your POV, which seems a tad Preterist to me and eisegetical at best.
1. I am not a Preterist.
2. How can you say I am practicing eisegesis? I am looking at the verses and discussing the verb tenses! I think you are the one looking at the verses with a predisposed idea rather than taking time to consider other ways of considering the text given the actual rendering of the verbs.

As verses 9 & 10 clearly show, their will be false signs and wonders, and the one who holds him back prevents his coming and as the Holy Spirit is still here and won't leave until Jesus' return, this obviously is in the future. Once the Holy Spirit is withdrawn from the earth, the man of lawlessness/anti-Christ, will manifest himself. As no believers will be here to resist him, because the Day of the Lord / return of Christ, precedes his manifestation, again it has to be in the future
You are inserting a lot of ideas into the text that are not explicit here. I agree there will be false signs and wonders. I agree that the "man of lawlessness" will be revealed in the future. There is no mention of an "Anti-Christ" here. If anyone is importing ideas into the text, you are clearly doing it here. Again, I don't think you are following me. I agree that Christ's return will be in the future. I agree that the "man of lawlessness" will be revealed and destroyed in the future. I just believe the "man of lawlessness" was presently exalting himself, and opposing God when Paul wrote the letter and I believe he is still doing it today. You are inserting Anti-Christ, and neglecting the very clear statement of Paul that says this "lawless" one was presently at work in his day AND uses present participle verbs to describe his opposing, exalting and proclaiming himself to be God. So, to clarify my point:

1) The mystery of lawlessness: was at work in Paul's day and will continue to be at work in the world until he is revealed and destroyed at Christ's coming.
2) Christ's coming and the destruction of the lawless one will be a future event (I am not a Preterist).

There is no Antichrist in these verses and Paul's description of a mysterious Satan-inspired man who comes into the world to set up a one-world government is no where in this text and I think would offer no comfort a group of Thessalonian Christians who are worried they missed the Second Coming. After all, if Christ's coming can be missed, how much more the coming of some mysterious figure walking into the Temple hundreds of miles away? It just makes no sense contextually.

The lawless one is Satan. When Christ comes, the one behind the evil of the world will be exposed and destroyed. THAT is the comfort we find in these verses. We will know Christ has come because when he comes, evil and the evil one will be wiped out forever.
 

ATP

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Wormwood said:
There is no Antichrist in these verses and Paul's description of a mysterious Satan-inspired man....
In Rev 13:1 and Rev 19:20, if neither the beast or the false prophet are the antichrist person then who are they. Rev 19:20 refers them to being "the two of them".

Rev 19:20 NIV But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

2 Thess 2:4 If the antichrist is not a man or a person, then who will be sitting down in the third temple.

New Living Translation
He will exalt himself and defy everything that people call god and every object of worship. He will even sit in the temple of God, claiming that he himself is God.

English Standard Version
who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

New American Standard Bible
who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

King James Bible
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits in God's sanctuary, publicizing that he himself is God.

International Standard Version
He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god and object of worship. As a result, he seats himself in the sanctuary of God and himself declares that he is God.

NET Bible
He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, and as a result he takes his seat in God's temple, displaying himself as God.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
He who opposes and exalts himself against everything that is called God and religion, just as he will sit in the Temple of God, as God, and will show concerning himself as if he is God.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
He opposes every so-called god or anything that is worshiped and places himself above them, sitting in God's temple and claiming to be God.

Jubilee Bible 2000
opposing and exalting himself against all that is called God, or divinity, so that he as God sits in the temple of God, making himself appear to be God.

King James 2000 Bible
Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

American King James Version
Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

American Standard Version
he that opposeth and exalteth himself against all that is called God or that is worshipped; so that he sitteth in the temple of God, setting himself forth as God.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Who opposeth, and is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself as if he were God.

Darby Bible Translation
who opposes and exalts himself on high against all called God, or object of veneration; so that he himself sits down in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

English Revised Version
he that opposeth and exalteth himself against all that is called God or that is worshipped; so that he sitteth in the temple of God, setting himself forth as God.

Webster's Bible Translation
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Weymouth New Testament
and exalts himself above, every so-called 'god' or object of worship, and goes the length of taking his seat in the very temple of God, giving it out that he himself is God.

World English Bible
he who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God or that is worshiped; so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself up as God.

Young's Literal Translation
who is opposing and is raising himself up above all called God or worshipped, so that he in the sanctuary of God as God hath sat down, shewing himself off that he is God -- the day doth not come.
 

StanJ

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Wormwood said:
Fair enough. The three words in Greek that I highlighted are present participles. That is a fact. Mounce is not the only Greek scholar who has translated Scripture. There are many translations that render this differently because there is too much translator bias in these verses. Its no different than the NIV translating "flesh" as "sinful nature." Its not necessarily a "bad" translation...as the thought of Paul is likely reflected, but its not how the Greek reads. The NIV does this regularly. The translators try to help the reader out to understand what they thought the author meant. I just think they missed the boat in 2 Thess. Paul makes it clear that,
“For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work." This isn't a future event but something "already" ηδη at work.
Again, as Mounce points out, the tense does not come from those words, but from the reference Paul makes TO the future. That he uses words that put him in that future place does not negate this event was not still to come. John used very similar verbiage in Revelation.
The NIV uses "carnal" to refer to the "flesh". What scripture exactly are you referring to?
Translators translate, they don't guess at what the Greek says. It's called "functional equivalence". This means the best word we know today to convey the meaning of the Greek that was used then. NOT English of 400 years ago which does not have the same equivalence.
Satan has been at work since day one, so I fail to understand why you would be bothered by Paul's reference to lawlessness being at work then? That is not the same as the MAN of lawlessness.
Paul says; "that day will not arrive until", and that is future. It still is.
Wormwood said:
1. I am not a Preterist.
2. How can you say I am practicing eisegesis? I am looking at the verses and discussing the verb tenses! I think you are the one looking at the verses with a predisposed idea rather than taking time to consider other ways of considering the text given the actual rendering of the verbs.
1. Good
2. Because your conclusions do NOT stem from what the text clearly says. You are taking a couple of words OUT of the context of the scripture. That's eisegesis.
Wormwood said:
You are inserting a lot of ideas into the text that are not explicit here. I agree there will be false signs and wonders. I agree that the "man of lawlessness" will be revealed in the future. There is no mention of an "Anti-Christ" here. If anyone is importing ideas into the text, you are clearly doing it here. Again, I don't think you are following me. I agree that Christ's return will be in the future. I agree that the "man of lawlessness" will be revealed and destroyed in the future. I just believe the "man of lawlessness" was presently exalting himself, and opposing God when Paul wrote the letter and I believe he is still doing it today. You are inserting Anti-Christ, and neglecting the very clear statement of Paul that says this "lawless" one was presently at work in his day AND uses present participle verbs to describe his opposing, exalting and proclaiming himself to be God. So, to clarify my point:

1) The mystery of lawlessness: was at work in Paul's day and will continue to be at work in the world until he is revealed and destroyed at Christ's coming.
2) Christ's coming and the destruction of the lawless one will be a future event (I am not a Preterist).

There is no Antichrist in these verses and Paul's description of a mysterious Satan-inspired man who comes into the world to set up a one-world government is no where in this text and I think would offer no comfort a group of Thessalonian Christians who are worried they missed the Second Coming. After all, if Christ's coming can be missed, how much more the coming of some mysterious figure walking into the Temple hundreds of miles away? It just makes no sense contextually.

The lawless one is Satan. When Christ comes, the one behind the evil of the world will be exposed and destroyed. THAT is the comfort we find in these verses. We will know Christ has come because when he comes, evil and the evil one will be wiped out forever.
I'm not inserting anything into the text I'm viewing it in light of ALL the Bible, as it should. As I stated above, "lawlessness" and "the MAN of lawlessness", are not the same so I have no idea how you get one from the other? Lawlessness has always been present since Adam and Eve disobeyed God.

The MAN of lawlessness IS the antichrist. When the Bible says Prince of Peace in Is 9:6, is it not referring to Jesus? Again take ALL the Bible to arrive at a conclusion, not just certain words.

Satan is Satan, not a man. The MAN of lawlessness will be just that, a man. Of course he will be deceived of Satan, but no less evil just as the beast is no less evil. Is Jesus not a man? Is he not God? Satan is not Jesus or anywhere near like Him. He can't be both. Jesus IS.
 

Wormwood

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Again, as Mounce points out, the tense does not come from those words, but from the reference Paul makes TO the future. That he uses words that put him in that future place does not negate this event was not still to come. John used very similar verbiage in Revelation.
The NIV uses "carnal" to refer to the "flesh". What scripture exactly are you referring to?
Translators translate, they don't guess at what the Greek says. It's called "functional equivalence". This means the best word we know today to convey the meaning of the Greek that was used then. NOT English of 400 years ago which does not have the same equivalence.
Satan has been at work since day one, so I fail to understand why you would be bothered by Paul's reference to lawlessness being at work then? That is not the same as the MAN of lawlessness.
Paul says; "that day will not arrive until", and that is future. It still is.
Yes, the ESV also makes reference to the future, but does not change the tense of exalts, opposes and proclaims to make the point. Again, no one is arguing that the man of lawlessness will be revealed in the future. The question is whether or not he is currently exalting himself, opposing God and proclaiming himself to be God, or are these future events.

“For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man,” (Romans 8:3, NIV84)
“Τὸ γὰρ ἀδύνατον τοῦ νόμου ἐν ᾧ ἠσθένει διὰ τῆς σαρκός, ὁ θεὸς τὸν ἑαυτοῦ υἱὸν πέμψας ἐν ὁμοιώματι σαρκὸς ἁμαρτίας καὶ περὶ ἁμαρτίας κατέκρινεν τὴν ἁμαρτίαν ἐν τῇ σαρκί,” (Romans 8:3, NA27)

Pretty much throughout Romans, NIV84 translates "sarkos" as "sinful nature." Specifically in Romans 8. NIV is a "thought for thought" translation, not a "word for word" translation. They try to convey the thought of the author and not specifically the words. Usually this is fine, but in 2 Thess 2, they imply some things that are not necessarily there. They don't leave room to see the activity of the lawless one as anything other than future. Again, the activities of the lawless one are verbs that are present participles.

I don't think you are at all following me. I understand how translations work. I know Greek.

I am not denying that Paul is referring to a future date. I am denying that all the activity of the "man of lawlessness" is future tense. Let me quote the verse to try to explain this more clearly.

“Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.” (2 Thessalonians 2:1–4, ESV)
Ok, so I have put in bold the phrase "son of destruction." The "son of destruction" is described with a dependent clause that is marked in blue. The blue clause explains who this "son of destruction" is. The NIV takes the underlined words, which are present participles in the Greek, and makes them future tense. Thus, the NIV makes it sound as though the "son of destruction" is ONLY a future figure who will one day oppose, exalt himself and proclaim himself to be God. However, I think the better rendering is to see this clause as one that explains that the "son of destruction" is currently opposing, exalting himself and proclaiming himself to be God. Thus, this figure is one that "will be" revealed when Christ returns, yet he is CURRENTLY opposing God and setting himself up in God's creation as the god of this world (1 John 5:19; John 12:31).

Paul uses four phrases for this figure: man of lawlessness, verse 3; son of destruction, verse 3; mystery of lawlessness, verse 7; lawless one, verse 8. Paul is being very generic is his phrasing and description of this figure. The point is that the focus is on the adjective describing the figure. "Man of lawlessness" does not mandate this is a "man" per se. The focus is not on "man." Just like "son of destruction" is not focusing on this is someone's "SON." Mystery of lawlessness does not indicate a "man" either. Again, Paul is being very indefinite. Consider also Eph. 2:2. The "sons of disobedience" is not emphasizing these are all "sons" or male. "Sons" acts almost as an indefinite pronoun to highlight "disobedience." This happens many many times in the Bible.

Because your conclusions do NOT stem from what the text clearly says. You are taking a couple of words OUT of the context of the scripture. That's eisegesis.
How am I taking words out of context? First, if you think I am taking things out of context, that is bad exegesis, not eisegesis. I am not the one importing ideas into these verses. I am trying to understand the verses in their context and am dealing with the tenses of the verbs. Please show me how I am taking things out of context. And show me how a mysterious future Antichrist fits the context of the question Paul is answering regarding the Thessalonians worry about missing the Second Coming.

The MAN of lawlessness IS the antichrist. When the Bible says Prince of Peace in Is 9:6, is it not referring to Jesus? Again take ALL the Bible to arrive at a conclusion, not just certain words.
Ok, then point me to all the other texts in the Bible that clearly describe this Antichrist figure that make this so obvious that this phrase "man of lawlessness" or "mystery of lawlessness" should be synonymous with "future Antichrist."

ATP,

In Rev 13:1 and Rev 19:20, if neither the beast or the false prophet are the antichrist person then who are they. Rev 19:20 refers them to being "the two of them".

Rev 19:20 NIV But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

2 Thess 2:4 If the antichrist is not a man or a person, then who will be sitting down in the third temple.
Before I answer your question about the "beast" and "false prophet," can you answer a question for me? Who is the prostitute riding the beast that drinks the blood of the saints? Is this a future individual we should be expecting? Is this a specific woman?

Temples in the OT were representations of creation and the heavens. The outer courts would represent creation while the inner chambers would be more representative of the heavens. I recommend reading Beale's Erosion of Inerrancy in Evangelicalism on this topic. As Hebrews points out the physical temple was just a model of the true heavenly temple. I don't think there will be another earthly temple. The church is the Temple of God made of living stones. There is no need for another physical temple or animal sacrifice. I find such a notion horrendous and borders on modern day Judaizing. Satan is current exalting himself in the world as the god of this world. He turns people from God to worship the things and stuff of this world. He is a deceiver and he is the true force behind all evil and false worship. People are currently taking the mark of the beast just as they are currently being marked by the Holy Spirit. God knows those that belong to him. People are either serving God or the god of this world, and their allegiance is known by God, and will be judged accordingly. One day the evil one that deceives the world will be exposed and destroyed at the coming of Christ. This is what Revelation clearly portrays, IMO.
 

ATP

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Wormwood said:
The church is the Temple of God made of living stones. There is no need for another physical temple or animal sacrifice. I find such a notion horrendous and borders on modern day Judaizing.
But doesn't the book of Ezekiel describe this future third temple? Are you saying that Ezekiel is wrong? Also, in 2 Thess 2:4, don't you need a body in order to (sit down)?
 

StanJ

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Wormwood said:
Yes, the ESV also makes reference to the future, but does not change the tense of exalts, opposes and proclaims to make the point. Again, no one is arguing that the man of lawlessness will be revealed in the future. The question is whether or not he is currently exalting himself, opposing God and proclaiming himself to be God, or are these future events.
No he is not and wasn't then either. As I said, the tense of those words is not the indicative, the tense Paul uses is shown in the words; "that day will not arrive until", which is IN the future.
As he IS a man, he could not possibly have existed then or now.
Wormwood said:
“For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man,” (Romans 8:3, NIV84)
“Τὸ γὰρ ἀδύνατον τοῦ νόμου ἐν ᾧ ἠσθένει διὰ τῆς σαρκός, ὁ θεὸς τὸν ἑαυτοῦ υἱὸν πέμψας ἐν ὁμοιώματι σαρκὸς ἁμαρτίας καὶ περὶ ἁμαρτίας κατέκρινεν τὴν ἁμαρτίαν ἐν τῇ σαρκί,” (Romans 8:3, NA27)

Pretty much throughout Romans, NIV84 translates "sarkos" as "sinful nature." Specifically in Romans 8. NIV is a "thought for thought" translation, not a "word for word" translation. They try to convey the thought of the author and not specifically the words. Usually this is fine, but in 2 Thess 2, they imply some things that are not necessarily there. They don't leave room to see the activity of the lawless one as anything other than future. Again, the activities of the lawless one are verbs that are present participles.
First, I don't use the NIV1984 anymore since the NIV2011 came out.
Second, flesh and sinful nature are the same to me so I won't strive about the word.
Third, the Greek word connotes flesh, body, the soft tissue of a creature, often in contrast to bone, ligament, or sinew; by extension human, humankind, with a focus on the fallen human nature, which is frail and corrupt in contrast to immaterial (spiritual) things, thus the NIV (1984) translation sinful nature.
Again the tense of those words are NOT relevant in the Greek, or in ANY translation for that matter.
Wormwood said:
Ok, so I have put in bold the phrase "son of destruction." The "son of destruction" is described with a dependent clause that is marked in blue. The blue clause explains who this "son of destruction" is. The NIV takes the underlined words, which are present participles in the Greek, and makes them future tense. Thus, the NIV makes it sound as though the "son of destruction" is ONLY a future figure who will one day oppose, exalt himself and proclaim himself to be God. However, I think the better rendering is to see this clause as one that explains that the "son of destruction" is currently opposing, exalting himself and proclaiming himself to be God. Thus, this figure is one that "will be" revealed when Christ returns, yet he is CURRENTLY opposing God and setting himself up in God's creation as the god of this world (1 John 5:19; John 12:31).

Paul uses four phrases for this figure: man of lawlessness, verse 3; son of destruction, verse 3; mystery of lawlessness, verse 7; lawless one, verse 8. Paul is being very generic is his phrasing and description of this figure. The point is that the focus is on the adjective describing the figure. "Man of lawlessness" does not mandate this is a "man" per se. The focus is not on "man." Just like "son of destruction" is not focusing on this is someone's "SON." Mystery of lawlessness does not indicate a "man" either. Again, Paul is being very indefinite. Consider also Eph. 2:2. The "sons of disobedience" is not emphasizing these are all "sons" or male. "Sons" acts almost as an indefinite pronoun to highlight "disobedience." This happens many many times in the Bible.
Again the rules for Greek tense are dependent on the subject matter which in this case is already depicted as the future. Just because Paul puts himself in the future when describing this event does not mean he is describing it in the current tense of his day. The rule applies the same in Greek or English. You have to read from verse one to get the tense of what Paul is talking about. Clearly it is in the future. Verses 1-12 is all about what WILL happen and the rest of the chapter is what to do to be prepared. Pretty simple in my book.

The ONLY verse in the present is v7, because it is, and Paul makes that clear. He refers to "lawlessness" itself, not a man. I can't wave a wand and make you see it if you refuse to. Stop clouding the issue with the other references that don't relate.

Eph 2:2 is NOT the same despite your attempt to cloud the issue. Most people know the difference between A man and mankind.
Wormwood said:
Ok, then point me to all the other texts in the Bible that clearly describe this Antichrist figure that make this so obvious that this phrase "man of lawlessness" or "mystery of lawlessness" should be synonymous with "future Antichrist."
First of all we are dealing with "MAN of lawlessness", I see nothing about "mystery" here.

V4 depicts who he is and if you don't think that is the antichrist then show us who is in Revelation or any other NT scripture.