Prove Practise of Worship of the Holy Spirit Is Biblical

JesusIsFaithful · Mar 1, 2015

I believe that the Holy Spirit is God of the Triune God.

Although it was the modified Nicene creed of 381 A.D. that introduced the practise of worshipping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son, and the internet can provide wen sites of their attempts to prove each line of that creed with scripture; it is erroneous to believe that they actually did it.
I checked the scripture given for worship of the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son & it did not do that.

Again, this is not about doubting that the Holy Spirit is God or the existence of the Triune God.

This is about asking for the scriptural support for the actual practise of worshipping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son.

So unless any one can show me any scripture endorsing that as a practise for the church to do; here is a the will of the Father in how we are to come to & worship Him.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

The practise of honouring the Holy Spirit is not mentioned because The Holy Spirit's job is to glorify the Son and those led by the Holy Spirit shall be doing the exact same thing in witnessing, fellowship, prayer, and worship ( John 15:26-27 & John 16:14 ) because the Son is the only way we can honour & glorify God the Father in spirit & in truth.

How do we come to God the Father in fellowship?

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

1 Corinthians 1: God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

What is the fellowship centered on?

1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

What is Paul asking believers to do in obedeince in verse 12 below in regards to worship?

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

So the Holy Spirit is not to be worshipped with the Father & the Son and neither the name of the "Trinity" as if Trinity is a name of God to be glorifying God by, because those led by the Spirit of God will be glorifying the Son Whose name is above every other name ( John 15:26-27 & John 16:14 ) and by Him God the Father is glorified because glorifying the Son is the only way to glorify God.

John 13:31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

Shirley · Mar 2, 2015

Ok, you just fried my brain!
Why are you separating God the Father and the Holy Spirit? I thought the Holy Spirit was Gods Spirit sent to us through Christ so why are you trying to separate them? Seems like you are saying we can only honor Jesus. Well I am sorry but I pray to the Father in Jesus name and their Holy Spirit must hear me? Oh who cares how people believe about this?

If you believe in the triune three in one God then why do you have a problem???????

Seems like you really don't believe in one God?

ATP · Mar 2, 2015

JesusIsFaithful said:
So the Holy Spirit is not to be worshipped with the Father & the Son..

Why can't the Holy Spirit be worshiped? It's the same spirit that comes from the Father.

JesusIsFaithful · Mar 3, 2015

Shirley said:
Why are you separating God the Father and the Holy Spirit? I thought the Holy Spirit was Gods Spirit sent to us through Christ so why are you trying to separate them? Seems like you are saying we can only honor Jesus. Well I am sorry but I pray to the Father in Jesus name and their Holy Spirit must hear me? Oh who cares how people believe about this?

If you believe in the triune three in one God then why do you have a problem???????

Seems like you really don't believe in one God?

You can pray to the Father in Jesus's name as it is by the Son we have access to the Father, but we can call on Jesus, the Son of God, also since being our only Mediator between us and the Father.

ATP said:
Why can't the Holy Spirit be worshiped? It's the same spirit that comes from the Father.

Where is the scripture endorsing that as a practise to do in worship?

The problem arises when people focus on the Holy Spirit in worship and then strange things happen.

A brother from India online had told me of an encounter where after having an adult Sunday morning class on the Holy Ghost and Pentecost, the church held a morning service in honouring the Holy Ghost. He had claimed that he eblieved as I did that the dramatic manifestation of the Spirit does not happen any more until this morning service.

He described what felt like liquid nitrogen seeping through his skull, and he began to confess an apology against his will towards this "spirit" thinking it was the Holy Spirit for not believing that "He" did not do these dramatic manifestations any more.

Jesus Christ is meek and lowly in heart in His invitations to come to the Son of God, and so that was not the Spirit of Christ.

God would prefer a genuine apology rather than a forced one.

The Holy Spirit is in him and therefore his experiencing the spirit invaiding him was not the Holy Spirit.

Now in all of these movements of the "Spirit" where participants will have an initial encounter and then invoke that same supernatural encounter by addressing the Holy Spirit in worship to come & fall on them to receive after a sensational sign in the flesh, this rudiment or pattern of the supernatural can also be found in those preaching another baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues ( which happens to comes with no interpretation which is why it is not of Him at all ( Isaiah 8:19 ) since God's gift of tongues are of other men's lips to speak unto the people 1 Corinthians 14:20-22 ).

They do not test the spirits but believe them to be of God in spite of how these spirits are not subject to them but they are subjected to these spirits in creating confusion in the assembly.

1 Corinthians 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

If you agree that the "holy laughter" movement is not of God, then you really have to ask Jesus why would God allow the devil to answer the prayer request towards the Holy Spirit and not the Holy Spirit?

Scripture testifies that this is not the job of the Holy Spirit to answer prayers. If any body wants their prayers heard by the Father, it is by way of the Son.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me......13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

That is the Father's will in regards to prayer is to have the Son answer any prayer requests given to the Father by the Son so that the Father may receive thanks in Jesus's name & thereby glorified in the Son.

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber....7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door: ......

Prayers are seemingly answered when praying to the Holy Spirit, but yet receiving confusion which is not of God, just as prayers are seemingly or supposedly being answered by praying to Mary & the departed saints as they get the credit for answered prayers, thus being a thief in that respect.

Going back to the initial encounter; it does not happen every time they place the focus on the Holy Spirit, but essentially, the believers assume that it was the Holy Spirit and then address the Holy Spirit to invoke these signs again and it happens, an adulertous generation seeking after a sign as spirits of the antichrist lure believers away from seeking teh face of the Son in worship to chasing after them for a sign.

Psalm 27:8When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, Lord, will I seek.

Matthew 7:13-27 prophesy the result for broadening the way in coming to God as these houses or beievers are falling in these movements of the "Spirit" as a result and thus therefore the solution to vaiding these seducing spirits is to keep our eyes on the Son with His help in worship for it is by honouring the Son as the OP testify of... is the only way we can honour the Father in worship. Luke 13:24-30 confirms the necessity of narrowing the way we come to God the Father in anything and that is as the bride is supposed to be towards the Bridegroom in being intimate with God the Father by.

That is Whom the indwelling Holy Spirit is pointing us to;; the Bridegroom; to avoid seducing spirits.

StanJ · Mar 3, 2015

@JIF,

As God IS the Father, Son AND Holy Spirit, anytime we worship God, we worship the Holy Spirit and Jesus The three are indivisible as you should well know.
I don't really understand what point you are trying to make here?
Are you advocating when we are filled with the Holy Spirit we don't have God or Jesus in our lives?

Shirley · Mar 3, 2015

Well I was taught that the Devil mocks everything that God does. I can easily understand that it is not hard for him to pretend to be the Holy Spirit. I have never been to a church where they do the things you spoke of so I can't judge it, but I think we should be careful about condemning things that the Holy Spirit does. The prayer language for instance could be the Holy Spirit or it could be the Devil. Each individual would have to test the Spirits themselves. I do not have the gift of tongues but I would be afraid to judge it to just be from the Devil.

ATP · Mar 3, 2015

The Holy Trinity is not an easy subject to discuss. It has many levels of depth. ^_^

JesusIsFaithful · Mar 3, 2015

StanJ said:
As God IS the Father, Son AND Holy Spirit, anytime we worship God, we worship the Holy Spirit and Jesus The three are indivisible as you should well know.

But only Jesus, the Son of God had died on the cross.

Just as the man Christ Jesus is the only Mediator between God and man.

Just as all invitations to come to God the Father is by the only way of the Son.

To honour the Father and His will, is to honour the Son by glorifying the Son, and by Him, God the Father is glorified..

I don't really understand what point you are trying to make here?

If we look at scripture in what the role of the Holy Spirit is in what He has been sent to do; how can the believers led by the Spirit of God do anything else? If the Holy Spirit is sent to not speak of Himself, ( John 16:13 ) but testify of the Son ( John 15:26 ) to glorify the Son ( John 16:14 ) so will the believers as led by the Holy Spirit to do the same ( John 15:27 ; 1 Corinthians 2:2 )

The Holy Spirit is not going to lead believers to testify of the Holy Spirit to glorify the Holy Spirit. This is what deferentiates the real indwelling Holy Spirit from seducing spirits also known as the spirits of the antichrist because they want that spotlight in worship; and to steal the affections of the bride that is supposed to be for the Bridegroom in luring them away from Christ in seeking His face to chasing after them for a sign. This is why the way is really is narrow in worship in how we come to God the Father by. To broaden the way is iniquity as described in Matthew 7:13-27 where in the end, the many houss falling down are the believers in these movements of the "Spirit". Once again, the solution to avoid this apostasy in these latter days is to strive ye to enter through the straight gate: Luke 13:24-30 or risk being left behind at the pre trib rapture event.

Are you advocating when we are filled with the Holy Spirit we don't have God or Jesus in our lives?

By His grace & by His help, I am conveying the truth that Jesus Christ is in you, and if any believer feels the spirit coming over them and filling them again even with the sign of tongues which comes with no interpretation, that is NOT the Holy Spirit nor God's gift of tongues because He is already in us by faith in Jesus Christ when we got saved when believing in Him after hearing the gospel.

The hypocrisey spoken of in 1 Timothy 4:1-2 is acknowledging that the Holy Spirit is in them and yet they are receiving Him again... after a sign. This is the falling away from the faith spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2nd & 3rd chapter if you note Paul saying that the particular iniquity was already at work in the churches back then.

And because the promise of the Holy Spirit is in us thanks to Jesus Christ is why the indwelling Holy Spirit is putting the spotlight on the Son because by glorifying the Son, we are glorifying the Father as it was the Father's promise by way of the Son in how we are to be saved, and receive the promise of the Spirit by.

Shirley said:
Well I was taught that the Devil mocks everything that God does. I can easily understand that it is not hard for him to pretend to be the Holy Spirit. I have never been to a church where they do the things you spoke of so I can't judge it, but I think we should be careful about condemning things that the Holy Spirit does. The prayer language for instance could be the Holy Spirit or it could be the Devil. Each individual would have to test the Spirits themselves. I do not have the gift of tongues but I would be afraid to judge it to just be from the Devil.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

We are to prove all things with His help as He will help us to discern good and evil.

Since we are to abstain from all appearances of evil, then it is God that will not imitate the devil's tongue of babbling nonsense when it comes with no interpretation.

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

The scripture testify of the supernatural tongie that is of the devil; and scripture gave the bottomline on what God's gift of tongues was for.

1 Corinthians 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Errant believers that preach another baptism with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of tongues which comes with no interpretation are preaching apostasy; the very falling away from the faith spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2nd & 3rd chapters. They ignore the warning about those that preach another Jesus or another spirit to receive in 2 Corinthians 11:1-4 in leading believers away from the Bridegroom in committing spiritual adultery by chasing after these seducing spirits for a sign; even the sign of tongues which comes with no interpretation.

From these events, we get false teachings that if you do not speak in tongues, you do not have the Holy Spirit and therefore you are not saved. My neighbour acroos the street was a believer for quite some time before she had an encounter while reading her Bible in the kitchen of what she thought was the Holy Ghost falling on her as she was speaking in tongues with no one else around. She changed her testimony that that was the moment she was saved bcause she got it all at once. So as may see from her chnaged testimony, believers think they need that to be sure when they are saved and they seek that salvation after a sign; and sure enough, it happens and re-enforces that false teaching that this is what believers need. BUT tongues are not to serve as a sign to believers, but to unbelievers as 1 Corinthians 14:22 confirms. So no way would God manifest His actual gift of tongues to support apostasy.

1 Thessalonians 5:17 Pray without ceasing. 18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

Many believers that use tongues as a prayer language will testify to being interrupted by what they believe is the Holy Spirit and so they let that spirit stop their praying and babble on, and yet God said pray without ceasing and so why would God interrupt any one's prayer? Only the devil would do that. Think about it. If it is God's will to give thanks, how can anyone give thanks for answered prayers if they did not know what they had prayed for? Better to know what you had prayed for to give God thanks than think you are giving thanks by route of tongues.

2 Timothy 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness....24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

The devil would like to come inbetween us and the Bridegroom. So the way in worship has to be narrow just as the way we communicate to God the Father by way of the Son has to be narrow also.

Born_Again · Mar 3, 2015

StanJ said:
@JIF,

As God IS the Father, Son AND Holy Spirit, anytime we worship God, we worship the Holy Spirit and Jesus The three are indivisible as you should well know.
I don't really understand what point you are trying to make here?

StanJ, This is my question as well. I don't understand why they are being separated out in such great detail..... I don't feel this gives glory God or His message.

I was raised Lutheran, though I am no longer Lutheran but I have said my fair share of the Nicene Creed. All it says is that "We (I) believe in the Holy Ghost" it doesn't say it is worshiped directly. It acknowledges the Holy Trinity. Why the attack on the Holy Ghost?

StanJ · Mar 4, 2015

JesusIsFaithful said:
But only Jesus, the Son of God had died on the cross.

Just as the man Christ Jesus is the only Mediator between God and man.

Just as all invitations to come to God the Father is by the only way of the Son.

To honour the Father and His will, is to honour the Son by glorifying the Son, and by Him, God the Father is glorified..

That was by God's design and submitted to by Jesus. I still don't get what you are driving at?
Until Jesus cried out "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me, He was fully God as Paul teaches in Col 1:19
Jesus the man is our mediator because he is also God so again I'm failing to understand why you want to differentiate here?
God the Father draws all to Jesus, not the other way around.

JesusIsFaithful said:
If we look at scripture in what the role of the Holy Spirit is in what He has been sent to do; how can the believers led by the Spirit of God do anything else? If the Holy Spirit is sent to not speak of Himself, ( John 16:13 ) but testify of the Son ( John 15:26 ) to glorify the Son ( John 16:14 ) so will the believers as led by the Holy Spirit to do the same ( John 15:27 ; 1 Corinthians 2:2 )

The Holy Spirit is not going to lead believers to testify of the Holy Spirit to glorify the Holy Spirit. This is what deferentiates the real indwelling Holy Spirit from seducing spirits also known as the spirits of the antichrist because they want that spotlight in worship; and to steal the affections of the bride that is supposed to be for the Bridegroom in luring them away from Christ in seeking His face to chasing after them for a sign. This is why the way is really is narrow in worship in how we come to God the Father by. To broaden the way is iniquity as described in Matthew 7:13-27 where in the end, the many houss falling down are the believers in these movements of the "Spirit". Once again, the solution to avoid this apostasy in these latter days is to strive ye to enter through the straight gate: Luke 13:24-30 or risk being left behind at the pre trib rapture event.

My question was not about the role of the Holy Spirit, but about what you are trying to convey? You seem to be reticent to make a plain statement?

The testimony of the Holy Spirit being resident in us, IS the speaking in tongues. It is the evidence thereof as clearly depicted in several places in Acts.
Apparently you have a problem with speaking in tongues, but as that was not an issue in the OP I won't go off track in responding to this other than to say you don't truly know who and what the Holy Spirit is if you have not ever spoken in tongues.

The WAY, is Jesus, and there is no other way.

JesusIsFaithful said:
By His grace & by His help, I am conveying the truth that Jesus Christ is in you, and if any believer feels the spirit coming over them and filling them again even with the sign of tongues which comes with no interpretation, that is NOT the Holy Spirit nor God's gift of tongues because He is already in us by faith in Jesus Christ when we got saved when believing in Him after hearing the gospel.

The hypocrisey spoken of in 1 Timothy 4:1-2 is acknowledging that the Holy Spirit is in them and yet they are receiving Him again... after a sign. This is the falling away from the faith spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2nd & 3rd chapter if you note Paul saying that the particular iniquity was already at work in the churches back then.

And because the promise of the Holy Spirit is in us thanks to Jesus Christ is why the indwelling Holy Spirit is putting the spotlight on the Son because by glorifying the Son, we are glorifying the Father as it was the Father's promise by way of the Son in how we are to be saved, and receive the promise of the Spirit by.

Being saved and being baptized in the Holy Spirit are two different things. One is for salvation and the second is for power and strength. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit, and as Paul clearly showed in Acts 19:1-4, it follows salvation.

1 Tim 4:1-2 is about apostasy, not about being filled with the Holy Spirit. Not properly exegeting the word of God will not help you understand God. What Paul spoke of here has been happening since that day.

Jesus said to WAIT for the Holy Spirit. It is not synonymous with salvation, otherwise those men in Acts 19 would have already had the Holy Spirit.

As far as the rest of your post is concerned, it is typical anti Pentecostal rhetoric and NOT sound doctrine at all.

Let me be clear....IF you have never spoken in tongues, you may have salvation through the spirit of Christ, but you do not have the power of Holy Spirit which Christ told us to wait on, and that is simply a lack of faith and obedience on your part. I do warn you though to be careful in how you convey what tongues is and heed what Jesus said in Mark 3:29 and Luke 12:10 less you find yourself blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

Born_Again said:
StanJ, This is my question as well. I don't understand why they are being separated out in such great detail..... I don't feel this gives glory God or His message.

I was raised Lutheran, though I am no longer Lutheran but I have said my fair share of the Nicene Creed. All it says is that "We (I) believe in the Holy Ghost" it doesn't say it is worshiped directly. It acknowledges the Holy Trinity. Why the attack on the Holy Ghost?

I think you'll find JIFs agenda in his last response to Shirley. He is obviously anti Pentecostal, which precipitates lessening the importance of the Holy Spirit, who IS God. Nothing more complicated than that.

JesusIsFaithful · Mar 4, 2015

Born_Again said:
StanJ, This is my question as well. I don't understand why they are being separated out in such great detail..... I don't feel this gives glory God or His message.

I was raised Lutheran, though I am no longer Lutheran but I have said my fair share of the Nicene Creed. All it says is that "We (I) believe in the Holy Ghost" it doesn't say it is worshiped directly. It acknowledges the Holy Trinity. Why the attack on the Holy Ghost?

You have to read on to see my reference as shown at this link below;

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/history/nicene381.html

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.

Plus, the Holy Spirit is not to be given the credit nor the glory as the giver of life; that belongs to the Son, Jesus Christ. Some modern Bibles change out the small "s" in spirit to Spirit in 2 Corinthians 3:6 & John 6:63 which is a wrong translation and a wrong testimony whereas all Bibles testify in John 6:33-35 and many other scripture that Jesus is the One that gives life as scripture is supposed to as John 5:39-40 testify of.

As Romans 8:10 in the KJV testify correctly that the Spirit is life and so when Jesus baptizes us with the Holy Spirit; Jesus is giving us eternal life as we are one with God again in fellowship by marriage to the Bridegroom.

The glory of God rests on the Son John 13:31-32

Unless you can explain the verses as not raising the satndard of judgment over every believer; honouring the Holy Spirit and glorifying Him is not honouring nor glorifying God the Father; and the indwelling Holy Spirit would not lead you nor any believer into doing that when He is sent to glorify Jesus Christ. John 16:14

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

The Father is not going to give the Son, a Dinozzo's slap on the back of His head, for forgetting about honouring the Holy Spirit. Jesus meant what He has said for a reason; to keep the rudiment that is in the world of their worshipping spirits out of the church.

The American Indians would dance and chant for the Great Spirit to come and fall on them. They have taken to alcohol because they testified that it was the same expereince as communing with the Great Spirit.

Wayward believers are climbing up another way in coming to God the Father in worship by addressing the Holy Spirit in worship & prayer. Sometimes, supernatural phenomenons occur where some churches are testifying to being drunk in the "Spirit".

This is why the way to God the Father has to be narrow in worship, fellowship & prayer because of the spirits of the antichrists out there in the world that would like to share in the spotlight with the Son and thus steal the spotlight from the Son in that worship place.

The real indwelling Holy Ghost would never do that as He would keep that spotlight on the Son for it is by honouring & glorifying the Son is how anyone can honour and glorify God the Father in Heaven. There is no other way as Jesus meant what He has said that He is the only way any one can come to God the Father by. John 14:6

StanJ said:
The testimony of the Holy Spirit being resident in us, IS the speaking in tongues. It is the evidence thereof as clearly depicted in several places in Acts.

Do clarify your reply. Are you teaching that if a believer does not speak in tongues, then the Holy Spirit is not in them?

By His grace & by His help, you better believe I am going to oppose that if that is what you are saying.

Being saved and being baptized in the Holy Spirit are two different things. One is for salvation and the second is for power and strength. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit, and as Paul clearly showed in Acts 19:1-4, it follows salvation.

Acts 19:1-7 was not about disciples of Jesus Christ that Paul had come across. They were disciples of John the Baptist's. When Paul figured it out after asking several questions as to what kind of disciples they were, he told them about Jesus Christ AND THEN they were water baptized in His name after becoming believers as that was WHEN they were saved.

You are preaching two receptions of the Holy Ghost; and that is not the truth, but apostasy.

2 Corinthians 11:1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

That would make the Father look evil as if He did not give us the Holy Spirit the first time for knocking at the door of Jesus.

Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Only one baptism of the Spirit as Jesus is the one hope of our calling.

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Only one drink of the One Spirit, brother.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Don't forget, brother, this second phenomenon is being repeated as some will believe they can receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit three times; a brother I used to work with referenced a book about it and he went on to annouce that he believes there are five baptism with the Holy Spirit.

By His grace & by His help, I am drawing the line at one baptism with the Holy Spirit in keeping the faith which is the good fight. This is why those other tongues which comes with no interpretation is not of Him as it supports apostasy.
.

StanJ · Mar 4, 2015

JesusIsFaithful said:
Do clarify your reply. Are you teaching that if a believer does not speak in tongues, then the Holy Spirit is not in them?

By His grace & by His help, you better believe I am going to oppose that if that is what you are saying.

Yes that is exactly what I said. Salvation is NOT the same as baptism in the Holy Spirit. The two SHOULD be simultaneous but they are not always. In Acts 19 you see one example. The apostles were saved long before they received the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.
Jesus set this course in Mark 16:17, and it transpired in Acts 2:4, 10:46 and 19:6.
I don't doubt you will oppose this, as has already been evidenced by your inflammatory and fallacious assertions so far.
I suggest you read 1 Cor 14:39 and learn the difference between the gift of tongues & interpretation, and tongues as a result of the Holy Spirit filling us initially.

JesusIsFaithful said:
Acts 19:1-7 was not about disciples of Jesus Christ that Paul had come across. They were disciples of John the Baptist's. When Paul figured it out after asking several questions as to what kind of disciples they were, he told them about Jesus Christ AND THEN they were water baptized in His name after becoming believers as that was WHEN they were saved.

You are preaching two receptions of the Holy Ghost; and that is not the truth, but apostasy.

2 Corinthians 11:1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

That would make the Father look evil as if He did not give us the Holy Spirit the first time for knocking at the door of Jesus.

Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Only one baptism of the Spirit as Jesus is the one hope of our calling.

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Only one drink of the One Spirit, brother.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Don't forget, brother, this second phenomenon is being repeated as some will believe they can receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit three times; a brother I used to work with referenced a book about it and he went on to announce that he believes there are five baptism with the Holy Spirit.

By His grace & by His help, I am drawing the line at one baptism with the Holy Spirit in keeping the faith which is the good fight. This is why those other tongues which comes with no interpretation is not of Him as it supports apostasy.
.

Of course it was about disciples of Jesus. Paul wouldn't ask them if they received the Holy Spirit if they weren't disciples of Jesus. You assume something NOT in evidence. Vs 1 & 2 go together.

I am actually preaching ONE baptism as the scriptures teach. Salvation is NOT baptism, which is clearly taught throughout scripture. Matt 3:11 and Luke 3:16

Luke 11 is talking about salvation, NOT receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

One Holy Spirit, One Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and unlimited topping up of the Holy Spirit as we need.

Where exactly does the scripture say that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit happens WHEN we are saved?

Sadly what you are trying to teach is not from God's help but from your dogmatic and doctrinal POV, NOT from scripture as I have clearly shown.

JesusIsFaithful · Mar 4, 2015

StanJ said:
Yes that is exactly what I said. Salvation is NOT the same as baptism in the Holy Spirit. The two SHOULD be simultaneous but they are not always.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

In Acts 19 you see one example.

It is unfortunate that you are unable to see that Acts 19:1-7 is not the example you think it was. Hopefully, you will read that again to see that they were disciples of John the Baptists and not believers in Jesus Christ. Ask youself this question; if they were believers in Jesus Christ, why then after Paul told them that Jesus was the One John the Baptist was preaching about, it was after that they had gotten water baptized in Jesus's name? That should be proof that they were not disciples of Jesus Christ when Paul had met them.

The apostles were saved long before they received the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.

No. They were not.

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Judas Iscariot was among the disciples that had received a temporary infilling of the Holy Spirit in Matthew 10th chapter, and yet John testified of Judas Iscariot not being a believer.

Do note that Jesus mentioned His ascension on when one receives eternal life from Him.

John 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. 66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. 70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Jesus had always preached when salvation would come and not before.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Matthew 20:28Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

So the disciples were not saved before Pentecost when John 14th chapter explained to the disciples when they would receive the promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Ghost which is the same event as having received eteral life.

John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.....

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you....25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The conditions for receiving the promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Spirit as well as eternal life was when Jesus Christ was no longer with them but in Heaven with the Father preparing a place for us which is akin to making us citizens of the kingdom of Heaven.

His disciples were not saved before Pentecost as every one has to be saved in the same way; by faith in Jesus Christ so that those that follow after His disciples will know that is how they were saved too, by believing in Him Whom has risen & ascended into Heaven.

Where exactly does the scripture say that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit happens WHEN we are saved?

Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

StanJ · Mar 4, 2015

JesusIsFaithful said:
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

and what does this verse have to do with the baptism of the Holy Spirit and tongues?

JesusIsFaithful said:
It is unfortunate that you are unable to see that Acts 19:1-7 is not the example you think it was. Hopefully, you will read that again to see that they were disciples of John the Baptists and not believers in Jesus Christ. Ask youself this question; if they were believers in Jesus Christ, why then after Paul told them that Jesus was the One John the Baptist was preaching about, it was after that they had gotten water baptized in Jesus's name? That should be proof that they were not disciples of Jesus Christ when Paul had met them.

You say this but cannot support it from that scripture. The context and wording shows Luke refers to Paul as seeing these men as disciples of Jesus, otherwise he would not have asked them if they had received the Holy Spirit. Disciples of John could not receive the Holy Spirit unless they were first saved.

You're assuming based on your dogma, that Acts 19:5 refers to water baptism, when it does NOT. It refers to baptism of the Holy Spirit. Paul did not contradict John as John said Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit, NOT water. You read it as if v5 and 6 are consecutive, when v6 is a detail of what happened in verse 5. This is consistent with how Luke wrote Acts. They are baptised in Jesus' name and that baptism is when Paul laid hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit WITH the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.

JesusIsFaithful said:
No. They were not.

Yes they were, as Jesus prayed in John 17:6-18... they had already accepted the truth of who and what Jesus was. They didn't need to do it again.
They were as saved as the women in Luke 7:50 was. They were as saved as Abraham was and as saved as Simeon and Anna were in Luke 2 and the thief in Luke 23.
You sadly have a very religious/biased and misinformed view of salvation.

JesusIsFaithful said:
Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

Paul is speaking here as an Apostle and the apostle to the gentiles. The we refers to ALL the apostles and disciples who were saved already. The church was very small then. Notice Paul says in v13, "and you also were included." So they also were of the first to be saved.
Again you misread what the word says.

JesusIsFaithful · Mar 5, 2015

StanJ said:
and what does this verse have to do with the baptism of the Holy Spirit and tongues?

Romans 8:9 reproves your notion that a believer can be saved without having the indwelling Holy Ghost, therefore you are wrong.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

You say this but cannot support it from that scripture. The context and wording shows Luke refers to Paul as seeing these men as disciples of Jesus, otherwise he would not have asked them if they had received the Holy Spirit. Disciples of John could not receive the Holy Spirit unless they were first saved.

You're assuming based on your dogma, that Acts 19:5 refers to water baptism, when it does NOT. It refers to baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Walk with Him;

Acts 19:1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

That word certain is not the same thing as saying they were disciples of Jesus Christ. Paul did not know what kind of disciples they were and so that was why he had asked teh question as he had done so in verse 2.

The answers of the disciples in verse 2 led Paul to ask them of what water baptism they were under.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

That is the first reference to a water baptism in that passage as it was of John the Baptist's. The question you have to ask yourself that of they were disciples of Jesus Christ, why were they not under that water baptism in His name? And that is because they were not disciples of Jesus Christ nor believers in Jesus Christ which is why Paul went on to explain about Who John the Baptist was preaching about.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

After hearing about Jesus Christ, that was when they were water baptized in His name. and then see what happened next.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. And all the men were about twelve.

You're assuming based on your dogma, that Acts 19:5 refers to water baptism, when it does NOT. It refers to baptism of the Holy Spirit.

No. You are reading your dogma into the scripture without even reading what the scripture was about, because you and others are using that reference as if that is proof about how believers cannot have the Holy Spirit yet, and those certain disciples were not even believers in Jesus Christ, let alone His disciples until Paul told them about Whom John the Baptist's was preaching about.

StanJ · Mar 5, 2015

JesusIsFaithful said:
Romans 8:9 reproves your notion that a believer can be saved without having the indwelling Holy Ghost, therefore you are wrong.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

All Paul is doing in Rom 8:9 is confirming who is saved and who isn't. Saying you have the Spirit of God and NOT accepting Christ as your savior, as many Jews tried to do, is not valid. NOWHERE does Paul deal with the Baptism of the Holy Spirit here.

Acts 8:15-17 (KJV)
Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Even your bias in using the KJV, cannot refute what is CLEARLY shown here. The Holy Spirit came AFTER salvation.

JesusIsFaithful · Mar 5, 2015

StanJ said:
All Paul is doing in Rom 8:9 is confirming who is saved and who isn't. Saying you have the Spirit of God and NOT accepting Christ as your savior, as many Jews tried to do, is not valid. NOWHERE does Paul deal with the Baptism of the Holy Spirit here.

Therefore Paul is confirming that anyone that does not have the Holy Spirit is none of His and thus not saved.

Acts 8:15-17 (KJV)
Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Even your bias in using the KJV, cannot refute what is CLEARLY shown here. The Holy Spirit came AFTER salvation.

So where Acts 19:1-7 failed to make your point, you come here to Acts 8.

I will point out something here. Nowhere did it say that they had been saved but only believed in the "things" Philip was preaching about. They were not saved until they had received the Holy Ghost.

In all the epistles to the churches, nowhere does it teach that a believer is saved without having the Holy Ghost, and yet the epistle to the churches does teach exactly when one receives the promise of the Spirit and that is by trusting Jesus Christ as their Saviour.

Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

So trying to fit that second supernatural experience into scripture by going to the Book of Acts is obviously not wise when you do not know everything that is going on there. Your concept of a baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues for a believer to seek after is denying having received Him by faith in Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.....6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Galatians 3:.14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith....26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

StanJ · Mar 5, 2015

JesusIsFaithful said:
Therefore Paul is confirming that anyone that does not have the Holy Spirit is none of His and thus not saved.

NOT understanding the triune nature of God along with the vernacular of God's word is definitely your problem and as you don't appear to be willing to learn I have no desire to teach you.

JesusIsFaithful said:
So where Acts 19:1-7 failed to make your point, you come here to Acts 8.

I will point out something here. Nowhere did it say that they had been saved but only believed in the "things" Philip was preaching about. They were not saved until they had received the Holy Ghost.

In all the epistles to the churches, nowhere does it teach that a believer is saved without having the Holy Ghost, and yet the epistle to the churches does teach exactly when one receives the promise of the Spirit and that is by trusting Jesus Christ as their Saviour.

Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

So trying to fit that second supernatural experience into scripture by going to the Book of Acts is obviously not wise when you do not know everything that is going on there. Your concept of a baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues for a believer to seek after is denying having received Him by faith in Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.....6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Galatians 3:.14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith....26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

I made my point, regardless of your acceptance of it. I was just trying to give you a perspective from your own preferred translation but it appears you're far to committed to your own doctrine than even the KJV.

Your MO is to not deal with what you are presented and continually spout scripture you have eisegeted. It appears the ONLY person you have convinced is yourself.

Both Acts 8,10 & 19 show men who were already saved and then received the Holy Spirit post salvation. Your equivocal responses and obfuscations do not change the truth of scripture.

JesusIsFaithful · Mar 6, 2015

StanJ said:
NOT understanding the triune nature of God along with the vernacular of God's word is definitely your problem and as you don't appear to be willing to learn I have no desire to teach you.

I made my point, regardless of your acceptance of it. I was just trying to give you a perspective from your own preferred translation but it appears you're far to committed to your own doctrine than even the KJV.

Your MO is to not deal with what you are presented and continually spout scripture you have eisegeted. It appears the ONLY person you have convinced is yourself.

Both Acts 8,10 & 19 show men who were already saved and then received the Holy Spirit post salvation. Your equivocal responses and obfuscations do not change the truth of scripture.

To prove that you are the one reading it wrong, how can you stop those that believe that there are 3 baptisms with the Holy Ghost? They can refer to events in Acts where they can claim that the disciples were receiving another filling at different points in the ministry.

The problem with that is....there are more then one event of the disciples "filled with the Holy Ghost..." and so that is why there is a teaching that there is a continual filling of the Holy Ghost... and after a sensational sign in the flesh.

So ask yourself this question; is the "holy laughter" movement is of God or not?

1 Corinthians 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

If you say it is, then explain how the scripture above opposes that movement.

If you say it is not of God, then how come they address the Holy Spirit in worship, prayed to the Holy Spirit to come and fall on them to receive "Him" and it happens.... just as much as in the same way when saved believers seek the Holy Spirit to receive again or for the very first time with the evidence of tongues.?

It's the same rudiment.

Scripture opposes how you are reading the event in Acts.

Scripture also opposes those that insist water baptism is necessary to receive the Holy Ghost. You and I can point them away from Acts 2nd chapter to Acts 10th chapter for that; and I can point to the epistles as well as the gospel to prove it; whereas you would not want to.

Because that reproof also reproves your misreading of the scripture as the epistles confirms.

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

You have to be a new creation saved by Jesus and filled with the Holy Ghost as saved to testify that Jesus is the Saviour. To infer that they need a continual filling is to tstify that they are not saved yet because they are a leaky vessel,

That verse alone reproves the notion of a continual filling as well as salvation being apart from receiving the Holy Ghost.

So just because you do not understand the delay in Acts, doesn't mean that there is another baptism with the Holy Ghost apart from salvation as plenty scripture outside of Acts reproves how you are reading that event as meaning they were saved before they had received the Holy Ghost when they were not.

The other incident is Acts 8:5-25 which was a tricky situation. The Lord Jesus Christ was casting out unclean spirits through Philip and so got a following because of it.

Acts 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed. 8 And there was great joy in that city. 9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one: 10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.

11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

The people believed the things about what Philip was preaching but he was in their spotlight and not Jesus, and so the people's heart was not quite right with the Lord.. Certainly, Simon's heart wasn't. Simon was seeking some more power that he could have that may be obtainable like his scorcery was.

14Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. 18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. 20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. 21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. 22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. 23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. 24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me. 25 And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.

As the people's heart & respect shifted from Simon the scorceror to Philip, it was necessary for someone else to come in and lay hands on them for three reasons. #1. To avoid anyone from thinking Simon the scorceror was doing this #2. To decrease Philip in the eyes & hearts of the people so that Christ Jesus may increase. #3. To address Simon's heart which was not quite right with the Lord. Some believers may find Simon as despicable for him thinking he can but that power of imparting the Holy Ghost unto others, but God loved him to make sure he came to Jesus Christ in the right way by looking at Jesus and not at the miracles. So that was the problem here; not only Simon's but the hearts & sights of the people's were fixated on Philip seemingly doing the miracles and not on Jesus. They believed the things Philip preached about, but his following was one of appreciation and wonder as the people were being delivered from unclean spirits that were plaguing the region. God sent others to lift their sights higher; to believe in Him as He is the One baptizing them with the Holy Ghost for believing in Him.

Now you can reject my commentary, but it should be obvious that you cannot really disprove it, but I can disprove your commentary by scripture in the gospel & the epistles because those that believed in the things Philip was preaching about, regardless of the water baptism, were not saved yet until they had received the promise of the Holy Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ; not by faith in Philip.

StanJ · Mar 6, 2015

JesusIsFaithful said:
To prove that you are the one reading it wrong, how can you stop those that believe that there are 3 baptisms with the Holy Ghost? They can refer to events in Acts where they can claim that the disciples were receiving another filling at different points in the ministry.

The problem with that is....there are more then one event of the disciples "filled with the Holy Ghost..." and so that is why there is a teaching that there is a continual filling of the Holy Ghost... and after a sensational sign in the flesh.

So ask yourself this question; is the "holy laughter" movement is of God or not?

1 Corinthians 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

If you say it is, then explain how the scripture above opposes that movement.

If you say it is not of God, then how come they address the Holy Spirit in worship, prayed to the Holy Spirit to come and fall on them to receive "Him" and it happens.... just as much as in the same way when saved believers seek the Holy Spirit to receive again or for the very first time with the evidence of tongues.?

It's the same rudiment.

Scripture opposes how you are reading the event in Acts.

Scripture also opposes those that insist water baptism is necessary to receive the Holy Ghost. You and I can point them away from Acts 2nd chapter to Acts 10th chapter for that; and I can point to the epistles as well as the gospel to prove it; whereas you would not want to.

Because that reproof also reproves your misreading of the scripture as the epistles confirms.

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

You have to be a new creation saved by Jesus and filled with the Holy Ghost as saved to testify that Jesus is the Saviour. To infer that they need a continual filling is to tstify that they are not saved yet because they are a leaky vessel,

That verse alone reproves the notion of a continual filling as well as salvation being apart from receiving the Holy Ghost.

So just because you do not understand the delay in Acts, doesn't mean that there is another baptism with the Holy Ghost apart from salvation as plenty scripture outside of Acts reproves how you are reading that event as meaning they were saved before they had received the Holy Ghost when they were not.

The other incident is Acts 8:5-25 which was a tricky situation. The Lord Jesus Christ was casting out unclean spirits through Philip and so got a following because of it.

Acts 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed. 8 And there was great joy in that city. 9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one: 10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.

11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

The people believed the things about what Philip was preaching but he was in their spotlight and not Jesus, and so the people's heart was not quite right with the Lord.. Certainly, Simon's heart wasn't. Simon was seeking some more power that he could have that may be obtainable like his scorcery was.

14Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. 18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. 20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. 21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. 22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. 23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. 24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me. 25 And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.

As the people's heart & respect shifted from Simon the scorceror to Philip, it was necessary for someone else to come in and lay hands on them for three reasons. #1. To avoid anyone from thinking Simon the scorceror was doing this #2. To decrease Philip in the eyes & hearts of the people so that Christ Jesus may increase. #3. To address Simon's heart which was not quite right with the Lord. Some believers may find Simon as despicable for him thinking he can but that power of imparting the Holy Ghost unto others, but God loved him to make sure he came to Jesus Christ in the right way by looking at Jesus and not at the miracles. So that was the problem here; not only Simon's but the hearts & sights of the people's were fixated on Philip seemingly doing the miracles and not on Jesus. They believed the things Philip preached about, but his following was one of appreciation and wonder as the people were being delivered from unclean spirits that were plaguing the region. God sent others to lift their sights higher; to believe in Him as He is the One baptizing them with the Holy Ghost for believing in Him.

Now you can reject my commentary, but it should be obvious that you cannot really disprove it, but I can disprove your commentary by scripture in the gospel & the epistles because those that believed in the things Philip was preaching about, regardless of the water baptism, were not saved yet until they had received the promise of the Holy Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ; not by faith in Philip.

First of all, assertion without corroboration and scripture means nothing to me. Just dogma speak.
There is only ONE baptism of the Holy Spirit, and as we need Him, He refreshes us. All the accounts in Acts are the same baptism of the Holy Spirit on different people. If you cannot distinguish that then I can't help you.

The rest of your post is onerous at best and completely wrong because you start from a false understanding based on your doctrinal bias, not based on knowledge of scripture.

What you point out in Acts 8 shows you don't understand because those in Samaria were saved and it wasn't until Peter and Paul went there that they actually received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. v14-17. Your reasoning is self serving and has no foundation in scriptural fact. The baptism being referred to in v12-13, is water baptism, as indicated by what happened in v15-17. The ONE baptism that Paul is always talking about is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, not water baptism.

I reject and refute your commentary for obvious reasons. It's WRONG.

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