Replacement Theology

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Phoneman777

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StanJ said:
Your vernacular doesn't prove itself Keeth. Israel is a nation of the world and those that are part of the Kingdom of God are from ALL nations. Only Israel has been created and promised a future, unlike ANY other nation of earth, either from yesterday or today or the future.
Peter was NOT addressing ALL the people of Israel, he was addressing the leadership in Jerusalem. Which claimed to represent ALL Israelites, when in fact they did not. Many had already believed and many more would, but none of them lost their citizenship, only their membership in Judaism.
StanJ said:
Your vernacular doesn't prove itself Keeth. Israel is a nation of the world and those that are part of the Kingdom of God are from ALL nations. Only Israel has been created and promised a future, unlike ANY other nation of earth, either from yesterday or today or the future.
Peter was NOT addressing ALL the people of Israel, he was addressing the leadership in Jerusalem. Which claimed to represent ALL Israelites, when in fact they did not. Many had already believed and many more would, but none of them lost their citizenship, only their membership in Judaism.
justaname said:
So far we have established that the mystery refers to ethnic Israel, that it promises salvation to ethnic Israel, and that this salvation is a future event that will become a reality when Jesus returns. In order to gain a full-orbed understanding of the μυστήριον, however, we need to investigate the words καὶ οὕτως more closely. Some scholars have understood these words to be temporal: Israel is hardened until the fullness of the Gentiles enters in and then all Israel shall be saved. The decisive objection against this view is that a temporal meaning of καὶ οὕτως cannot be sustained (1 Cor. 11:28; 14:25; 1 Thess. 4:17; Jeremias 1977: 198; Fitzmyer 1993c: 622). Others have suggested that οὕτωςκάθως (houtōs … kathōs, so … just as) is correlative (Müller 1964: 43; Stuhlmacher 1971: 560; Luz 1968: 294; Kümmel 1977: 207). Such a construction is possible but unlikely, for in the parallel texts (1 Cor. 11:28; 14:25; 1 Thess. 4:17) καὶ οὕτως denotes manner. The same conclusion probably obtains in this case as well. Thus Paul denotes the manner or way in which Israel would be saved, and in this context what is distinctive about the manner is the time frame in which Israel would be saved: all Israel is only saved after the fullness of the Gentiles enters in. The content of the mystery, then, is not merely that Israel would be saved in the future (that was quite evident in the OT). What is new and distinctive is the revelation that all Israel would be saved only after the full number of Gentiles had been inscribed into the people of God (see Cranfield 1979: 577–78; Dahl 1977: 152–53; Hübner 1984a: 118; Bockmuehl 1990: 173; Stuhlmacher 1994: 172). We need to recall again that Paul communicates this mystery to forestall Gentile pride, for the latter were tempted to believe that God had chosen them because they were superior to Jews. Instead, God has planned salvation history in such a way that he would receive the maximum glory, so that it would be evident to all that salvation is of the Lord.

[SIZE=12pt][1][/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Schreiner, T. R. (1998). Romans (Vol. 6, p. 613). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Concerning Romans 11[/SIZE]

​I believe some have not heeded the warning given by Paul, and have fallen into pride thinking the Church replaced Israel. In truth the predominately Gentile Church is not the root, rather only branches grafted in.
Brother, maybe you have concluded that the promises and salvation are for ethnic Israel, but I have not. The promises to the fathers are "yea" and "amen" in Christ, not the Christ-less and as for salvation, well, "there is no other name..." The fullness of the Gentiles who comprise "Spiritual Israel" only serves to motivate blind "literal Israel" to see and desire the blessing which God has bestowed on us - it is not some cue by which God will perform "divine cataract surgery" on literal Israel. The kingdom has been taken from them and that's that. If literal Israel is to partake of the promises and salvation of Jesus, they will have to repent of their rebellion as the Prodigal opened his eyes and saw his wretchedness from which he repented.
 

justaname

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Phoneman777 said:
Brother, maybe you have concluded that the promises and salvation are for ethnic Israel, but I have not. The promises to the fathers are "yea" and "amen" in Christ, not the Christ-less and as for salvation, well, "there is no other name..." The fullness of the Gentiles who comprise "Spiritual Israel" only serves to motivate blind "literal Israel" to see and desire the blessing which God has bestowed on us - it is not some cue by which God will perform "divine cataract surgery" on literal Israel. The kingdom has been taken from them and that's that. If literal Israel is to partake of the promises and salvation of Jesus, they will have to repent of their rebellion as the Prodigal opened his eyes and saw his wretchedness from which he repented.
I suggest you re-read what I posted. You have a contorted view of my conclusion.
 

justaname

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The crux of this paper is to explore the mystery of the church in the New Testament. Specifically the mysteries mentioned by Paul and how they relate to the church will be addressed. Also determining which passage best defines the mystery of the church will be presented. The portions of Scriptures used will be Romans 11, Ephesians, and Colossians. Schreiner gives a brief description of Paul’s use of the word mystery.
Paul often uses the term (Rom. 16:25; 1 Cor. 2:1, 7; 4:1; 13:2; 14:2; 15:51; Eph. 1:9; 3:3, 4, 9; 5:32; 6:19; Col. 1:26, 27; 2:2; 4:3; 2 Thess. 2:7; 1 Tim. 3:9, 16), and the closest parallel to Rom. 11:25 is found in 1 Cor. 15:51. Μυστήριον in Paul does not signify a riddle or a puzzle that surpasses human comprehension. In the OT and second temple literature it refers to a secret element of God’s plan that has been hidden from human beings but has now been revealed.[1]
The main passage defining the mystery in relation to the nature of the church is the Romans passage. Here Paul gives insight to the mystery, supports it using Scripture (cf; Isaiah 59:20, Psalms 14:7), and describes the position of ethnic Israel in God’s plan of salvation. Considering the mystery and the summation of the passages explored, the Romans passage gives the most detail.
The mystery is revealed couched in the context of a warning against pride for Gentile believers. (11:24-25) The condition of Israel is considered a partial hardening until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. Implied is the hardening will be lifted when the fullness of the Gentiles come in.
It is in the next portion described, the “all Israel” will be saved, that gives scholars much debate. Context refutes Israel meaning all Jewish and Gentile believers in Christ, thereby ethnic Israel is readily understood. So then Israel as a people can be seen as being saved.
Some have said that this refers to the remnant of Jews who have believed throughout history (D. Robinson 1967: 94–95; Ridderbos 1975: 358–59; Horne 1978: 333–34). The difficulty with this interpretation is that the mystery revealed is stunningly anticlimactic (so Murray 1965: 97; Ellison 1966: 93; Cranfield 1979: 577; Gundry Volf 1990: 182). The salvation of a remnant squares with what Paul argued in Rom. 9 and 11:1–10, but 11:11–24 intimates that something more than the salvation of the remnant awaits Israel.[2]
Schreiner concludes there will be a great ingathering of Jews, near the end of history, after the full number of Gentiles has entered into the people of God. This view coincides with the Revelation depiction of the 144,000. (Revelation 7) This is when national Israel will “look upon Him whom they pierced; and they will mourn for Him.” There will be an “outpouring of the Spirit of grace and supplication on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem,” which will take place when Jesus returns to earth.[3] The profoundness of the revealed mystery is the timing of the saving of “all Israel” being after the “fullness of the Gentiles”. It must be noted here that not all scholars agree with this conclusion.
Ephesians is concise in the description of the mystery. Given in a three-fold description Gentiles are fellow heirs to the blessings, fellow members of the body of Christ, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ. Yet this is not entirely new revelation per-se’.
The question then rests on what constitutes a mystery in this passage? To be assured Abraham was to bless all nations while the Law, the prophets, and the writings show Christ was coming to all peoples. (Romans 15:8-12) The manner in which that purpose would come to fruition—by incorporation of both Jews and Gentiles into the body of Christ—was not made known. It is this double union, with Christ and with each other, which is the substance of the “mystery”[4]
In Colossians “mystery” is mentioned three times. (1:27, 2:2, 4:3) This is the broadest use of the three explored passages. The general application of the word here to the revelation of gospel truth in general (which continues in the other Colossian occurrences) is similar to the use of the word in Romans 16:25—where Paul claims that his gospel and preaching are “according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past”—and in Ephesians 1:9 and 6:19. Its background is in apocalyptic Judaism, with its focus on “revealing” (apokalyptō; hence “apocalyptic”) realities about God, the world, and the culmination of God’s purposes in the world.[5]
The mystery in these passages relating to the nature of the church is not easily solvable as just exactly whom the Church consists of is yet to be fully understood. Grudem’s definition: The church is the community of all true believers for all time… both believers in the New Testament age and believers in the Old Testament age as well.[6] Whereas Ryrie’s conclusion: Just as there were redeemed Israelites before the day of Pentecost so there will be redeemed people after the rapture of the church, both during the tribulation period and the millennium. But though redeemed and assured of heaven, they will apparently not be a part of the body of Christ, which will be distinct from other redeemed people. The heavenly Jerusalem, we are told, is inhabited by angels, the church, God, Jesus, and “the spirits of just men made perfect” (apparently a reference to Old Testament saints). The point is, however, that there are distinct groups of believers in heaven. Distinction is maintained even though the destiny is the same.[7]
In 1 Peter we have, “But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
Earlier in the epistle Peter states, “you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. Here we see the privileges, titles, and blessings that were once held for a specific nation people called Israel being applied to believers in Christ that consists of fulfilled Jews and Gentiles.
What can certainly be assessed is both Jews and Gentiles alike are equal in Christ, one new man. Being united together, the new man is united to Christ. The emphasis of the mystery in relation to the Church rests on the manner in which the union takes place, the timing of the union, and the depth of the union.


[1] Schreiner, T. R. (1998). Romans (Vol. 6, p. 613). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books.


[2] Schreiner, T. R. (1998). Romans (Vol. 6, pp. 616–617). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books.


[3] Schreiner, T. R. The Church as the New Israel and the Future of Ethnic Israel in Paul


[4] O’Brien, P. T. (1999). The letter to the Ephesians (p. 236). Grand Rapids, MI: W.B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.


[5] Moo, D. J. (2008). The letters to the Colossians and to Philemon (p. 156). Grand Rapids, MI: William B. Eerdmans Pub. Co.


[6] Grudem, W. A. (2004). Systematic theology: an introduction to biblical doctrine (p. 853). Leicester, England; Grand Rapids, MI: Inter-Varsity Press; Zondervan Pub. House.


[7] Ryrie, C. C. (1972). A survey of Bible doctrine. Chicago: Moody Press.
 

StanJ

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justaname said:
The crux of this paper is to explore the mystery of the church in the New Testament. Specifically the mysteries mentioned by Paul and how they relate to the church will be addressed. Also determining which passage best defines the mystery of the church will be presented. The portions of Scriptures used will be Romans 11, Ephesians, and Colossians. Schreiner gives a brief description of Paul’s use of the word mystery.
Paul often uses the term (Rom. 16:25; 1 Cor. 2:1, 7; 4:1; 13:2; 14:2; 15:51; Eph. 1:9; 3:3, 4, 9; 5:32; 6:19; Col. 1:26, 27; 2:2; 4:3; 2 Thess. 2:7; 1 Tim. 3:9, 16), and the closest parallel to Rom. 11:25 is found in 1 Cor. 15:51. Μυστήριον in Paul does not signify a riddle or a puzzle that surpasses human comprehension. In the OT and second temple literature it refers to a secret element of God’s plan that has been hidden from human beings but has now been revealed.[1]
The main passage defining the mystery in relation to the nature of the church is the Romans passage. Here Paul gives insight to the mystery, supports it using Scripture (cf; Isaiah 59:20, Psalms 14:7), and describes the position of ethnic Israel in God’s plan of salvation. Considering the mystery and the summation of the passages explored, the Romans passage gives the most detail.
The mystery is revealed couched in the context of a warning against pride for Gentile believers. (11:24-25) The condition of Israel is considered a partial hardening until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. Implied is the hardening will be lifted when the fullness of the Gentiles come in.
It is in the next portion described, the “all Israel” will be saved, that gives scholars much debate. Context refutes Israel meaning all Jewish and Gentile believers in Christ, thereby ethnic Israel is readily understood. So then Israel as a people can be seen as being saved.
Some have said that this refers to the remnant of Jews who have believed throughout history (D. Robinson 1967: 94–95; Ridderbos 1975: 358–59; Horne 1978: 333–34). The difficulty with this interpretation is that the mystery revealed is stunningly anticlimactic (so Murray 1965: 97; Ellison 1966: 93; Cranfield 1979: 577; Gundry Volf 1990: 182). The salvation of a remnant squares with what Paul argued in Rom. 9 and 11:1–10, but 11:11–24 intimates that something more than the salvation of the remnant awaits Israel.[2]
Schreiner concludes there will be a great ingathering of Jews, near the end of history, after the full number of Gentiles has entered into the people of God. This view coincides with the Revelation depiction of the 144,000. (Revelation 7) This is when national Israel will “look upon Him whom they pierced; and they will mourn for Him.” There will be an “outpouring of the Spirit of grace and supplication on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem,” which will take place when Jesus returns to earth.[3] The profoundness of the revealed mystery is the timing of the saving of “all Israel” being after the “fullness of the Gentiles”. It must be noted here that not all scholars agree with this conclusion.
Ephesians is concise in the description of the mystery. Given in a three-fold description Gentiles are fellow heirs to the blessings, fellow members of the body of Christ, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ. Yet this is not entirely new revelation per-se’.
The question then rests on what constitutes a mystery in this passage? To be assured Abraham was to bless all nations while the Law, the prophets, and the writings show Christ was coming to all peoples. (Romans 15:8-12) The manner in which that purpose would come to fruition—by incorporation of both Jews and Gentiles into the body of Christ—was not made known. It is this double union, with Christ and with each other, which is the substance of the “mystery”[4]
In Colossians “mystery” is mentioned three times. (1:27, 2:2, 4:3) This is the broadest use of the three explored passages. The general application of the word here to the revelation of gospel truth in general (which continues in the other Colossian occurrences) is similar to the use of the word in Romans 16:25—where Paul claims that his gospel and preaching are “according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past”—and in Ephesians 1:9 and 6:19. Its background is in apocalyptic Judaism, with its focus on “revealing” (apokalyptō; hence “apocalyptic”) realities about God, the world, and the culmination of God’s purposes in the world.[5]
The mystery in these passages relating to the nature of the church is not easily solvable as just exactly whom the Church consists of is yet to be fully understood. Grudem’s definition: The church is the community of all true believers for all time… both believers in the New Testament age and believers in the Old Testament age as well.[6] Whereas Ryrie’s conclusion: Just as there were redeemed Israelites before the day of Pentecost so there will be redeemed people after the rapture of the church, both during the tribulation period and the millennium. But though redeemed and assured of heaven, they will apparently not be a part of the body of Christ, which will be distinct from other redeemed people. The heavenly Jerusalem, we are told, is inhabited by angels, the church, God, Jesus, and “the spirits of just men made perfect” (apparently a reference to Old Testament saints). The point is, however, that there are distinct groups of believers in heaven. Distinction is maintained even though the destiny is the same.[7]
In 1 Peter we have, “But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
Earlier in the epistle Peter states, “you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. Here we see the privileges, titles, and blessings that were once held for a specific nation people called Israel being applied to believers in Christ that consists of fulfilled Jews and Gentiles.
What can certainly be assessed is both Jews and Gentiles alike are equal in Christ, one new man. Being united together, the new man is united to Christ. The emphasis of the mystery in relation to the Church rests on the manner in which the union takes place, the timing of the union, and the depth of the union.


[1] Schreiner, T. R. (1998). Romans (Vol. 6, p. 613). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books.


[2] Schreiner, T. R. (1998). Romans (Vol. 6, pp. 616–617). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books.


[3] Schreiner, T. R. The Church as the New Israel and the Future of Ethnic Israel in Paul


[4] O’Brien, P. T. (1999). The letter to the Ephesians (p. 236). Grand Rapids, MI: W.B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.


[5] Moo, D. J. (2008). The letters to the Colossians and to Philemon (p. 156). Grand Rapids, MI: William B. Eerdmans Pub. Co.


[6] Grudem, W. A. (2004). Systematic theology: an introduction to biblical doctrine (p. 853). Leicester, England; Grand Rapids, MI: Inter-Varsity Press; Zondervan Pub. House.


[7] Ryrie, C. C. (1972). A survey of Bible doctrine. Chicago: Moody Press.
Haven't read anything of Schreiner's, but am happy to see Douglas Moo in there. One of the pre-eminent Greek scholars of our day.
 

Wormwood

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It is in the next portion described, the “all Israel” will be saved, that gives scholars much debate. Context refutes Israel meaning all Jewish and Gentile believers in Christ, thereby ethnic Israel is readily understood. So then Israel as a people can be seen as being saved.
Some have said that this refers to the remnant of Jews who have believed throughout history (D. Robinson 1967: 94–95; Ridderbos 1975: 358–59; Horne 1978: 333–34). The difficulty with this interpretation is that the mystery revealed is stunningly anticlimactic (so Murray 1965: 97; Ellison 1966: 93; Cranfield 1979: 577; Gundry Volf 1990: 182). The salvation of a remnant squares with what Paul argued in Rom. 9 and 11:1–10, but 11:11–24 intimates that something more than the salvation of the remnant awaits Israel.[2]

Paul says "in this way all Israel will be saved." I agree that this is speaking of national Israel (as the context demands it). However, the issue being addressed by Paul here is not the number of Israelites being saved, but the manner by which they are saved. Essentially, Paul is saying, "this is the means by which all Israel will be saved"

Paul's focus is God's plan to save Israelites. That plan, discussed just prior to this section in Romans, is that God hardens Israel and has grace on the Gentiles. The Gentiles are saved which makes Israel jealous so they to will turn to the Lord for salvation. This is the "way" of salvation for all Israel. That is Paul's point, IMO.

A future salvation of national Israel in the end times makes no sense contextually with Paul's point. Paul is talking about the mystery of God's plan to bring salvation to all the world in Christ. The means by which all Israelites are saved is by jealously of the Gentiles being accepted into the family of God by faith. That is Paul's point and to turn this passage into some dispensational eschatology is to really lose sight of Paul's focus and flow of thought, IMHO. I don't see that "something more than salvation awaits Israel" in this context. Rather, I think Paul is saying that the salvation of Israel will bring great benefit to the church as a whole. Gentiles should not boast over Jews because we all stand by grace and the inclusion of the Jews will only bring great benefit and blessing to the church as a whole...and God's means to bring them into the church is this means of hardening and welcoming in the Gentile by faith so that the Israelite too will come to faith.

I think the idea that prior to conversion God prefers Jews to Gentiles and only after conversion are Gentiles considered "equal in Christ" is quite unwarranted with regards to the overall teaching of the NT. In fact, I think Paul goes to great lengths in Romans 1-3 to show that apart from God's grace in Christ, both Jews and Gentiles are equally condemned and the primary benefit of being a Jew is not a special plan of salvation, but the privilege of having the very law of God (even though they had failed to keep it) and being the chosen lineage for Christ.
 

StanJ

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Wormwood said:
Paul says "in this way all Israel will be saved." I agree that this is speaking of national Israel (as the context demands it). However, the issue being addressed by Paul here is not the number of Israelites being saved, but the manner by which they are saved. Essentially, Paul is saying, "this is the means by which all Israel will be saved"

Paul's focus is God's plan to save Israelites. That plan, discussed just prior to this section in Romans, is that God hardens Israel and has grace on the Gentiles. The Gentiles are saved which makes Israel jealous so they to will turn to the Lord for salvation. This is the "way" of salvation for all Israel. That is Paul's point, IMO.

A future salvation of national Israel in the end times makes no sense contextually with Paul's point. Paul is talking about the mystery of God's plan to bring salvation to all the world in Christ. The means by which all Israelites are saved is by jealously of the Gentiles being accepted into the family of God by faith. That is Paul's point and to turn this passage into some dispensational eschatology is to really lose sight of Paul's focus and flow of thought, IMHO. I don't see that "something more than salvation awaits Israel" in this context. Rather, I think Paul is saying that the salvation of Israel will bring great benefit to the church as a whole. Gentiles should not boast over Jews because we all stand by grace and the inclusion of the Jews will only bring great benefit and blessing to the church as a whole...and God's means to bring them into the church is this means of hardening and welcoming in the Gentile by faith so that the Israelite too will come to faith.

I think the idea that prior to conversion God prefers Jews to Gentiles and only after conversion are Gentiles considered "equal in Christ" is quite unwarranted with regards to the overall teaching of the NT. In fact, I think Paul goes to great lengths in Romans 1-3 to show that apart from God's grace in Christ, both Jews and Gentiles are equally condemned and the primary benefit of being a Jew is not a special plan of salvation, but the privilege of having the very law of God (even though they had failed to keep it) and being the chosen lineage for Christ.
Sorry I don't see this. God didn't harden Israel, Paul just says; Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved.
Paul also states in v31; so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you.

I agree that God welcomed any and all those to salvation prior to Jesus, but that Jesus was the way He wanted the NC to be.
 

Wormwood

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Stan,

As I see it, Romans 11:7, 8, 10 indicate that God has a hand in the hardening. I agree with you that the hardening of Israel was mostly self-inflicted due to unbelief, so that issue doesn't bother me in the least. In fact, it wouldn't impact my views in the least if all of the hardening of Israel was self-inflicted. However, I think this hardening is similar to the hardening of Israel in the OT where they refused to listen, therefore, God would not allow them to listen (hence the quoting of Isaiah). God "closed their eyes" because of their unbelief, and like Pharaoh, their initial sin resulted in God's work to cause a more complete hardening in order to accomplish his plans.

I'm not sure I understand how your second statement applies to my comment. I agree with you that God wanted Christ to be the center of the NC.

In any event, I just think Paul is talking about the means to save all Israelites who would come to salvation... hardening (whether by God or Israel hardening themselves) -> salvation of Gentiles -> jealousy of Israelites -> conversion of Israelites. This is how all Israelites would come to salvation in Christ through the preaching of the Gospel, according to Paul. I think that is what Paul is driving at here, not a future salvation of the entire nation in some distant eschatological future.
 

Phoneman777

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justaname said:
I suggest you re-read what I posted. You have a contorted view of my conclusion.
You said, "So far we have established that the mystery refers to ethnic Israel, that it promises salvation to ethnic Israel, and that this salvation is a future event that will become a reality when Jesus returns."

So, my response in post #81 was spot on. "And so all Israel shall be saved" is not a promise to "ethnic Israel", but Spiritual Israel. That's why I disagreed with what you claim has been established.
Keeth said:
Ac 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, 9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Was Peter lying when he told all of Israel the above? Have, or will all of Israel, even those who have deid already accept Christ and be saved in Him? If not, how do you reconcile the verse you shared, with the one I just gave you? Is one of them a lie, and the other is the truth? If so, which one?
Keeth, your wasting your time trying to get through to him. When Dispensationalism, which is really the offspring of Jesuit Futurism, is the lens through which one views prophecy, a clear picture will never emerge.
 

justaname

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Wormwood said:
Paul says "in this way all Israel will be saved." I agree that this is speaking of national Israel (as the context demands it). However, the issue being addressed by Paul here is not the number of Israelites being saved, but the manner by which they are saved. Essentially, Paul is saying, "this is the means by which all Israel will be saved"

Paul's focus is God's plan to save Israelites. That plan, discussed just prior to this section in Romans, is that God hardens Israel and has grace on the Gentiles. The Gentiles are saved which makes Israel jealous so they to will turn to the Lord for salvation. This is the "way" of salvation for all Israel. That is Paul's point, IMO.

A future salvation of national Israel in the end times makes no sense contextually with Paul's point. Paul is talking about the mystery of God's plan to bring salvation to all the world in Christ. The means by which all Israelites are saved is by jealously of the Gentiles being accepted into the family of God by faith. That is Paul's point and to turn this passage into some dispensational eschatology is to really lose sight of Paul's focus and flow of thought, IMHO. I don't see that "something more than salvation awaits Israel" in this context. Rather, I think Paul is saying that the salvation of Israel will bring great benefit to the church as a whole. Gentiles should not boast over Jews because we all stand by grace and the inclusion of the Jews will only bring great benefit and blessing to the church as a whole...and God's means to bring them into the church is this means of hardening and welcoming in the Gentile by faith so that the Israelite too will come to faith.

I think the idea that prior to conversion God prefers Jews to Gentiles and only after conversion are Gentiles considered "equal in Christ" is quite unwarranted with regards to the overall teaching of the NT. In fact, I think Paul goes to great lengths in Romans 1-3 to show that apart from God's grace in Christ, both Jews and Gentiles are equally condemned and the primary benefit of being a Jew is not a special plan of salvation, but the privilege of having the very law of God (even though they had failed to keep it) and being the chosen lineage for Christ.
Schreiner does deal with this further in his commentary...I probably should have posted this for your sake, yet for the sake of the paper it was not necessary...

This period of a great Gentile ingathering is happening “until” (ἄχρι οὗ, achri hou) all Israel will be saved. I have already observed in 11:1–10 that despite the election of a remnant among Israel most of Israel remains hardened. It follows, then, that the hardening of the majority of Israel in verse 25 is parallel to verses 1–10, where the hardening of most of Israel is a reality despite the election of a remnant. Now this observation is extremely important for the interpretation of verses 25–26, for the latter verses imply that something more than the hardening of the majority of Israel is to be anticipated. The word “until” implies that the hardening of the majority of Israel will be lifted after the full number of Gentiles are saved. This expectation is fulfilled in verse 26, which promises the salvation of all Israel, suggesting not merely the salvation of a remnant throughout history but a great ingathering of Jews into the people of God.



So far we have established that the mystery refers to ethnic Israel, that it promises salvation to ethnic Israel, and that this salvation is a future event that will become a reality when Jesus returns. In order to gain a full-orbed understanding of the μυστήριον, however, we need to investigate the words καὶ οὕτως more closely. Some scholars have understood these words to be temporal: Israel is hardened until the fullness of the Gentiles enters in and then all Israel shall be saved. The decisive objection against this view is that a temporal meaning of καὶ οὕτως cannot be sustained (1 Cor. 11:28; 14:25; 1 Thess. 4:17; Jeremias 1977: 198; Fitzmyer 1993c: 622). Others have suggested that οὕτωςκάθως (houtōs … kathōs, so … just as) is correlative (Müller 1964: 43; Stuhlmacher 1971: 560; Luz 1968: 294; Kümmel 1977: 207). Such a construction is possible but unlikely, for in the parallel texts (1 Cor. 11:28; 14:25; 1 Thess. 4:17) καὶ οὕτως denotes manner. The same conclusion probably obtains in this case as well. Thus Paul denotes the manner or way in which Israel would be saved, and in this context what is distinctive about the manner is the time frame in which Israel would be saved: all Israel is only saved after the fullness of the Gentiles enters in. The content of the mystery, then, is not merely that Israel would be saved in the future (that was quite evident in the OT). What is new and distinctive is the revelation that all Israel would be saved only after the full number of Gentiles had been inscribed into the people of God (see Cranfield 1979: 577–78; Dahl 1977: 152–53; Hübner 1984a: 118; Bockmuehl 1990: 173; Stuhlmacher 1994: 172).
 

Phoneman777

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justaname said:
Schreiner does deal with this further in his commentary...I probably should have posted this for your sake, yet for the sake of the paper it was not necessary...

So far we have established that the mystery refers to ethnic Israel, that it promises salvation to ethnic Israel, and that this salvation is a future event that will become a reality when Jesus returns. In order to gain a full-orbed understanding of the μυστήριον, however, we need to investigate the words καὶ οὕτως more closely. Some scholars have understood these words to be temporal: Israel is hardened until the fullness of the Gentiles enters in and then all Israel shall be saved. The decisive objection against this view is that a temporal meaning of καὶ οὕτως cannot be sustained (1 Cor. 11:28; 14:25; 1 Thess. 4:17; Jeremias 1977: 198; Fitzmyer 1993c: 622). Others have suggested that οὕτωςκάθως (houtōs … kathōs, so … just as) is correlative (Müller 1964: 43; Stuhlmacher 1971: 560; Luz 1968: 294; Kümmel 1977: 207). Such a construction is possible but unlikely, for in the parallel texts (1 Cor. 11:28; 14:25; 1 Thess. 4:17) καὶ οὕτως denotes manner. The same conclusion probably obtains in this case as well. Thus Paul denotes the manner or way in which Israel would be saved, and in this context what is distinctive about the manner is the time frame in which Israel would be saved: all Israel is only saved after the fullness of the Gentiles enters in. The content of the mystery, then, is not merely that Israel would be saved in the future (that was quite evident in the OT). What is new and distinctive is the revelation that all Israel would be saved only after the full number of Gentiles had been inscribed into the people of God (see Cranfield 1979: 577–78; Dahl 1977: 152–53; Hübner 1984a: 118; Bockmuehl 1990: 173; Stuhlmacher 1994: 172).



You still misunderstand the conclusion. Most agree Israel being ethnic in Paul's verses here. (Romans 11:25-26) The context proves this case. If you believe different make an argument, not just state an opinion.
"israel" cannot possibly refer to literal Israel, for this same Paul said "they are not all Israel that are of Israel" and "he is a Jew inwardly...whose circumcision is of the heart". The natural branches of literal Israel were broken off from Christ, the True Vine. Literal Israelites who regain their sight and senses by beholding the blessing that now belong to Spiritual Israelites and repent of their hatred of Jesus will be grafted back into the Vine, but there is no coming "corporate repentance of the literal nation of Israel so that they may fulfill their prophetic destiny."
 

Keeth

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StanJ said:
Can't help but see what you've emphasized, but maybe you should just read it IN context and not emphasize anything?

Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: “Rulers and elders of the people! If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a man who was lame and are being asked how he was healed, 1then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. Jesus is

“‘the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the cornerstone.’


Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

Nowhere does Acts 4 convey that the kingdom of God was taken away from them. What it does convey is that there is a NAME for their savior, not just a nebulous YHWH. His NAME is now Jesus, but He is still God and still their savior. The NEW covenant does not depict a NEW kingdom of God, it conveys a new dispensation.
Yea, I know, never mind the details, just listen to you.
Phoneman777 said:
You said, "So far we have established that the mystery refers to ethnic Israel, that it promises salvation to ethnic Israel, and that this salvation is a future event that will become a reality when Jesus returns."

So, my response in post #81 was spot on. "And so all Israel shall be saved" is not a promise to "ethnic Israel", but Spiritual Israel. That's why I disagreed with what you claim has been established.

Keeth, your wasting your time trying to get through to him. When Dispensationalism, which is really the offspring of Jesuit Futurism, is the lens through which one views prophecy, a clear picture will never emerge.
Trying to convince someone of truth is never a waste of time, though I do understand your point. Even those who will reject the truth, have a right to here it. God is like that. He sends us messages over and over again, even if we reject them. He wants us to have every chance possible.
 

justaname

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Phoneman777 said:
"israel" cannot possibly refer to literal Israel, for this same Paul said "they are not all Israel that are of Israel" and "he is a Jew inwardly...whose circumcision is of the heart". The natural branches of literal Israel were broken off from Christ, the True Vine. Literal Israelites who regain their sight and senses by beholding the blessing that now belong to Spiritual Israelites and repent of their hatred of Jesus will be grafted back into the Vine, but there is no coming "corporate repentance of the literal nation of Israel so that they may fulfill their prophetic destiny."
So then who is Paul speaking of here?

Romans 11:25
For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

and here...Romans 11:28
From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;

If Paul is speaking of "Spiritual Israel" here this verse makes no sense.

Now if verse 28 is ethnic Israel then verse 26 must be ethnic Israel also, because the pronoun "they" refers back to the last mention of who Paul is speaking of.

and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

Again context. And just for clarity the passage...

For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
 

Wormwood

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justaname said:
Schreiner does deal with this further in his commentary...I probably should have posted this for your sake, yet for the sake of the paper it was not necessary...

This period of a great Gentile ingathering is happening “until” (ἄχρι οὗ, achri hou) all Israel will be saved. I have already observed in 11:1–10 that despite the election of a remnant among Israel most of Israel remains hardened. It follows, then, that the hardening of the majority of Israel in verse 25 is parallel to verses 1–10, where the hardening of most of Israel is a reality despite the election of a remnant. Now this observation is extremely important for the interpretation of verses 25–26, for the latter verses imply that something more than the hardening of the majority of Israel is to be anticipated. The word “until” implies that the hardening of the majority of Israel will be lifted after the full number of Gentiles are saved. This expectation is fulfilled in verse 26, which promises the salvation of all Israel, suggesting not merely the salvation of a remnant throughout history but a great ingathering of Jews into the people of God.



So far we have established that the mystery refers to ethnic Israel, that it promises salvation to ethnic Israel, and that this salvation is a future event that will become a reality when Jesus returns. In order to gain a full-orbed understanding of the μυστήριον, however, we need to investigate the words καὶ οὕτως more closely. Some scholars have understood these words to be temporal: Israel is hardened until the fullness of the Gentiles enters in and then all Israel shall be saved. The decisive objection against this view is that a temporal meaning of καὶ οὕτως cannot be sustained (1 Cor. 11:28; 14:25; 1 Thess. 4:17; Jeremias 1977: 198; Fitzmyer 1993c: 622). Others have suggested that οὕτωςκάθως (houtōs … kathōs, so … just as) is correlative (Müller 1964: 43; Stuhlmacher 1971: 560; Luz 1968: 294; Kümmel 1977: 207). Such a construction is possible but unlikely, for in the parallel texts (1 Cor. 11:28; 14:25; 1 Thess. 4:17) καὶ οὕτως denotes manner. The same conclusion probably obtains in this case as well. Thus Paul denotes the manner or way in which Israel would be saved, and in this context what is distinctive about the manner is the time frame in which Israel would be saved: all Israel is only saved after the fullness of the Gentiles enters in. The content of the mystery, then, is not merely that Israel would be saved in the future (that was quite evident in the OT). What is new and distinctive is the revelation that all Israel would be saved only after the full number of Gentiles had been inscribed into the people of God (see Cranfield 1979: 577–78; Dahl 1977: 152–53; Hübner 1984a: 118; Bockmuehl 1990: 173; Stuhlmacher 1994: 172).
justaname,

Thanks for your response. I do not disagree with the meaning of "until." However, I do disagree with the phrase "full number." Pleroma is never used in the NT in the numerical sense. In fact, this same word is used in verse 12. The word simply means fullness. Paul is referring to the fullness of God's salvation coming upon the Gentiles.

So, lets look again at Paul's train of thought. He does not want the Gentiles to be arrogant about their position. Israel has experienced a partial hardening until the fullness of the Gentiles has arrived. This "fullness" refers to their full inclusion or salvation. Now that the Gentiles were being fully welcomed into the family of God, all of Israel (not just the remnant) would find salvation through their jealousy over the Gentiles full inclusion into the family of God. As one commentator puts it:
[SIZE=medium]The point is that the hardening of the Jews was the occasion for the commencement of the preaching of the gospel to the Gentiles. Thus the Gentile Christians should not gloat over the Jews’ lost state; in one sense they owe their very salvation to it.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Jack Cottrell, Romans, vol. 2, The College Press NIV Commentary (Joplin, MO: College Press Pub. Co., 1996), Ro 11:25.[/SIZE]
To me, this makes far more sense in the context as Paul is referring to Jew and Gentile relations. It makes very little sense to me for Paul to suddenly jump into some far away eschatological prediction about the entire nation coming to salvation just before the end of the world. No, I think Paul is talking about God's plan of salvation. Israel was temporarily hardened in order to open the door for Gentiles to be fully accepted by faith, and through their faith and full acceptance, the Israelites would also come to faith. Thus, the Gentiles should not be arrogant because Israel's hardening resulted in their salvation and now all Israel can be grafted back in as a result of seeing the faith of the Gentiles and embracing that faith as well.
 

Keeth

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StanJ said:
As opposed to listening to you and your FALSE teaching with NO details? At least I can defend my position with scriputre, not just assert it.
Ignoring scripture that doesn't fit what you have chosen to believe, does not qualify as defending a position in my book. You won't even admit that all means all. Accusations are boring and worthless arguments. All of Israel, means all of Israel my friend. You can of course ignore all and anything you wish. Have at it.
 

StanJ

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Keeth said:
Ignoring scripture that doesn't fit what you have chosen to believe, does not qualify as defending a position in my book. You won't even admit that all means all. Accusations are boring and worthless arguments. All of Israel, means all of Israel my friend. You can of course ignore all and anything you wish. Have at it.
All means all in the context it is sued, and as you obviously don't know Greek, your comments carry NO credibility.

Vine's defines the Greek here;
All:
radically means "all." Used without the article it means "every," every kind or variety. So the RV marg. in Eph 2:21, "every building," and the text in Eph 3:15, "every family," and the RV marg. of Act 2:36, "every house;" or it may signify "the highest degree," the maximum of what is referred to, as, "with all boldness" Act 4:29. Before proper names of countries, cities and nations, and before collective terms, like "Israel," it signifies either "all" or "the whole," e.g., Mat 2:3; Act 2:36. Used with the article, it means the whole of one object. In the plural it signifies "the totality of the persons or things referred to." Used without a noun it virtually becomes a pronoun, meaning "everyone" or "anyone." In the plural with a noun it means "all." One form of the neuter plural (panta) signifies "wholly, together, in all ways, in all things," Act 20:35; 1Cr 9:25. The neuter plural without the article signifies "all things severally," e.g., Jhn 1:3; 1Cr 2:10; preceded by the article it denotes "all things," as constituting a whole, e.g., Rom 11:36; 1Cr 8:6; Eph 3:9.

Now it's up to YOU to follow through and see what Peter IS teaching here. Feel free to use the following study tool.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/Dictionary/viewTopic.cfm?topic=VT0000085
 

Keeth

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StanJ said:
All means all in the context it is sued, and as you obviously don't know Greek, your comments carry NO credibility.

Vine's defines the Greek here;
All:
radically means "all." Used without the article it means "every," every kind or variety. So the RV marg. in Eph 2:21, "every building," and the text in Eph 3:15, "every family," and the RV marg. of Act 2:36, "every house;" or it may signify "the highest degree," the maximum of what is referred to, as, "with all boldness" Act 4:29. Before proper names of countries, cities and nations, and before collective terms, like "Israel," it signifies either "all" or "the whole," e.g., Mat 2:3; Act 2:36. Used with the article, it means the whole of one object. In the plural it signifies "the totality of the persons or things referred to." Used without a noun it virtually becomes a pronoun, meaning "everyone" or "anyone." In the plural with a noun it means "all." One form of the neuter plural (panta) signifies "wholly, together, in all ways, in all things," Act 20:35; 1Cr 9:25. The neuter plural without the article signifies "all things severally," e.g., Jhn 1:3; 1Cr 2:10; preceded by the article it denotes "all things," as constituting a whole, e.g., Rom 11:36; 1Cr 8:6; Eph 3:9.

Now it's up to YOU to follow through and see what Peter IS teaching here. Feel free to use the following study tool.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/Dictionary/viewTopic.cfm?topic=VT0000085
Yea, all those idiot greek scholars that worked on bible translations should have just asked you I guess, you could have set them straight.


Acts 4:10New International Version (NIV)
10 then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed.



Acts 4:1021st Century King James Version (KJ21)
10 be it known unto you all and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified and whom God raised from the dead, even by Him doth this man stand here before you whole.



Acts 4:10American Standard Version (ASV)
10 be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even in him doth this man stand here before you whole.



Acts 4:10Amplified Bible (AMP)
10 Let it be known and understood by all of you, and by the whole house of Israel, that in the name and through the power and authority of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, Whom you crucified, [but] Whom God raised from the dead, in Him and by means of Him this man is standing here before you well and sound in body.



Acts 4:10Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
10 then let it be known to you and to all the people of Isra’el that it is in the name of the Messiah, Yeshua from Natzeret, whom you had executed on a stake as a criminal but whom God has raised from the dead, that this man stands before you perfectly healed.



Acts 4:10Darby Translation (DARBY)
10 be it known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ the Nazaraean, whom *ye* have crucified, whom God has raised from among [the] dead, by *him* this [man] stands here before you sound [in body].


Acts 4:101599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
10 [a]Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the Name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye have crucified, whom God raised again from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you, whole.



Acts 4:10International Standard Version (ISV)
10 you and all the people of Israel must understand that this man stands healthy before you because of the name of Jesus from Nazareth, whom you crucified, but whom God raised from the dead.



Acts 4:10Modern English Version (MEV)
10 be it known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands before you whole.

Shall we go on, I think not. Apparently, none of them can get it right, only you understand it properly.
 

Keeth

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