Republican Party = Christianity; why?

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StanJ

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DogLady19 said:
I live in a state with open primaries, so I know about indies being able to vote in them, and yes, they do influence which candidate a particular party ends up with (but not to the degree that some people claim). Personally, I think that's fair considering only a limited few of the people who wish to run for office are actually allowed on the ballot because party politics have been codified.

As for socialism, yes, some money from working people goes to non-working people. Two thirds of those non-working people are elderly, disabled or children - people the Church is supposed to care for (especially in a country that has a church on every corner!)

What concerns me more is how much money from working people goes to millionaires and corrupt officials. We spend far more in corporate welfare than we do in poverty alleviation.

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it." -Frederic Bastiat

Personally, I don't God is on any country's "side" any more than He cares what football team makes it to the Superbowl. He wishes ALL would come to repentance, but that requires individual choice, not a national one. This nation was founded by sinners - some saved by grace, some not - and I don't think God ever promised He'd bless our nation... perhaps we have been a little too presumptuous to ever think that.
Welcome to CB DogLady19...nice to hear a level headed POV on this issue. As a Canadian, I seem to get flack for even having an opinion on American politics. Apparently some believe I am not allowed to voice it. :huh:

I whole heartedly agree that God is not on any NATIONAL side. His plan is to build a church that will inherit the NEW earth and as such continuously works to that end.

BTW, I have 2 dogs. :D
 
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DogLady19

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StanJ said:
Welcome to CB DogLady19...nice to hear a level headed POV on this issue. As a Canadian, I seem to get flack for even having an opinion on American politics....
Thanks for the welcome. I enjoy good in depth discussions on just abut any issue, and I appreciate the perspectives of others that are not as invested... You POV is as valid as anyone else's as far as I'm concerned... Perhaps we'd be a better nation if we would be more open to hearing what the rest of the world thinks about us! JMHO...

Looking forward to more on this forum... I have become a bit disgruntled at the ad hominem hate speech that poses as debate on other political blogs (although it has really hewed my apologetics to a fine sharp edge! LOL)
 

michaelvpardo

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Jesus never said His disciples should obey the government or give their allegiance to it. His example was to obey the laws and pay the taxes, nothing more. In actual fact, Christ acted in exactly the manner of a foreign tourist. Jesus was a stranger in the land of His birth and to His own kinsmen. He obeyed the laws and paid the taxes, but did not lend political support to the government. Political opportunists ever since have corrupted His message for their own political motivations of greed and murder. Jesus was never a part of any of that.

"Christ does not vindicate a race or a nation. It is the sovereignty of God which is vindicated."
- Reinhold Neibuhr

Did I write that salvation wasn't personal? I did not. Misquoting my words will not justify error on your part Stan.

The Bible does say that Israel and Egypt and I believe also Syria will be saved as nations. YOU said nations would not be saved and that is an incorrect assertion.

*******

To return to the theme of the thread, I don't believe that Christianity can be identified with the Republicans any more. It's a fact that the GOP has been distancing itself from the former moral majority for years. The change in alliance will continue and grow greater as the next presidential campaign gets under way.

Moral standards are no longer politically expedient in America. They are to be denied and ridiculed and relegated to the lunatic fringe.

"So do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them; do not plead with me, for I will not listen to you."
- Jeremiah 7:16

The people of the United States have abandoned God and His ways and as a result will no longer be blessed as a nation. Individuals may be saved if they fervently seek the Kingdom of God, but not the country. America has turned its back on God and the tipping point of divine favor has been crossed. God has turned His back on America.

Judgment is upon us and will grow more severe as time goes by. Watch and learn, pilgrim.

I remember the calls that once went out for national prayer. The calls were usually made by hypocritical presidents who wanted God to march in lock step with their murder and thievery rather than to bow in humility before the Almighty. The calls were echoed by churches that wanted to increase their self-indulgent 'ministries'. I remember petitions to heaven for wisdom to be granted to our leadership. In the end wisdom was indeed granted, but it was used to betray us.

The Republican party has abandoned its former alliance with white Christians. That much has been obvious to most folks except a few political pundits who like to use the former marriage of political expediency as material for jibes and jokes. It isn't obvious to many white Christians, however. Many of the older generation continue to hang on to days of former glory and memories of hope for political influence. The reality is far different.

It's all about bread and circuses, not morality, God and financial responsibility.

The Democrats are famous for handing out treats to the undeserving and the wayward, while the Republicans were traditionally the party of conservative values and monetary responsibility. Like some ponderous dinosaur, the Republican party is gradually turning away from its traditional position and alliances.......as the nation continues to circle the drain of history and we seek to escape God any way we can.

Christians need to remember the cross more......and wave the flag less.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
Rough, but true enough. I always appreciate your stand.
 

Foreigner

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Of the two parties, which has celebrated the fact they are NOT tied to Christian ethics?
The same party that criticizes those that with to live their Christin ethics.
The same party that blames all of America's ills on the religious right and people of faith.
The same party that supports the removal of anything having to do with Christianity for schools, government, and public life.

When you can answer that question then you can answer why Republicans are identified as the party of Christianity.
 

aspen

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Hmmm....

How about the party that panders to Christians for their vote, but is actually the party of big business
The Party that rewrites American History as "Christian", which in fact, was Unitarian at best and Free Mason at worst.
The Party that suppresses science in order to protect big business and Christian literalism.

Thanks Foreigner! I just answered my own thread - The Republican Party is definitely not the Party of Christ.
 

DogLady19

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Foreigner said:
Of the two parties, which has celebrated the fact they are NOT tied to Christian ethics?
The same party that criticizes those that with to live their Christin ethics.
The same party that blames all of America's ills on the religious right and people of faith.
The same party that supports the removal of anything having to do with Christianity for schools, government, and public life.

When you can answer that question then you can answer why Republicans are identified as the party of Christianity.
So, if you aren't anti-Christ, your are pro-Christ??? :blink:

And why is there an assumption that one must choose between only two parties? The Constitution Party is more aligned with Christianity than the GOP. And the Libertarian Party is aligned more with the founders than the GOP.

You will know them by their fruits... I'd rather have a politician who says they hate God than one who says they love Him, but arrogantly practices every kind of immorality and despotism. At least the God-hater is honest!

Government and political parties do not represent Christ, or God, or anything of a spiritual nature. Ever. They represent humans. We are not a theocracy.
aspen said:
Hmmm....

How about the party that panders to Christians for their vote, but is actually the party of big business
The Party that rewrites American History as "Christian", which in fact, was Unitarian at best and Free Mason at worst.
The Party that suppresses science in order to protect big business and Christian literalism.

Thanks Foreigner! I just answered my own thread - The Republican Party is definitely not the Party of Christ.
Why do you say the founders were Unitarian?

"The Republican Party is definitely not the Party of Christ." You're right about that!
 

Foreigner

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It is easy to be generous and benevolent as a Democrat when you are demanding that someone ELSE give their money to take care of the poor.

But direct government financial handouts have proven not to be the solution. Things have only gotten worse.

Why? The removal of accountability. When individual states tell people who are able to work (not working and do not have special needs or special needs children) that they will need to give 5-10 hours a week to a work program, thousands voluntarily drop off the program. How can they do that if they are indeed 'starving?'

Same with the rampant use of EBT cards at strip clubs, casinos, tattoo parlors and liquor stores. The left rants it is unfair to restrict how the money is spent, but the money was to FEED families, not provide a means of entertainment.

BILLIONS are wasted every year but Democrats don't want accountability among those collecting the funds, even if accountability would mean there is even MORE money available for those truly in need.

The government is not your mother and 'the rich' already pay their fair share.

The top 1% pay 24% of all Federal Taxes
The top 10% pay just over 53% of all Federal Taxes
The bottom 50% pay less than 3% of all Federal Taxes

The argument then goes to "Yes, but the bottom 50% pay local, state, gas, and other taxes." True. But so does everyone else, including 'the rich.'

You guys are using the Republicans as a scape goat, but the real problem is accountability.

Worry about yourself, individually first.
You don't know how much your neighbor or 'the rich' give in money and time to charities beyond the taxes you don't pay.

Give it a rest.

There are scores of the poor and needy who NEED our help. There are also scores on the welfare and food stamp roles who do not. They should not be there, but are because no one will hold their idleness accountable.
"For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat. For we hear that some among you walk in idleness, not busy at work, but busybodies. Now such persons we command and encourage in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly and to earn their own living." - 2 Thess 3:10-12.

And feel free to confirm for yourself:

Of all the nations in the world, America is the most generous to the poor.
Of all Americans, Republicans give more to the poor than Democrats.
Of the Republicans, Conservative Republicans give more to the poor than main stream Republicans.
Of Conservative Republicans, Evangelicals give more to the poor than non-Evangelicals.

Glad I could help
 

pom2014

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Foreigner said:
It is easy to be generous and benevolent as a Democrat when you are demanding that someone ELSE give their money to take care of the poor.

But direct government financial handouts have proven not to be the solution. Things have only gotten worse.

Why? The removal of accountability. When individual states tell people who are able to work (not working and do not have special needs or special needs children) that they will need to give 5-10 hours a week to a work program, thousands voluntarily drop off the program. How can they do that if they are indeed 'starving?'

Same with the rampant use of EBT cards at strip clubs, casinos, tattoo parlors and liquor stores. The left rants it is unfair to restrict how the money is spent, but the money was to FEED families, not provide a means of entertainment.

BILLIONS are wasted every year but Democrats don't want accountability among those collecting the funds, even if accountability would mean there is even MORE money available for those truly in need.

The government is not your mother and 'the rich' already pay their fair share.

The top 1% pay 24% of all Federal Taxes
The top 10% pay just over 53% of all Federal Taxes
The bottom 50% pay less than 3% of all Federal Taxes

The argument then goes to "Yes, but the bottom 50% pay local, state, gas, and other taxes." True. But so does everyone else, including 'the rich.'

You guys are using the Republicans as a scape goat, but the real problem is accountability.

Worry about yourself, individually first.
You don't know how much your neighbor or 'the rich' give in money and time to charities beyond the taxes you don't pay.

Give it a rest.

There are scores of the poor and needy who NEED our help. There are also scores on the welfare and food stamp roles who do not. They should not be there, but are because no one will hold their idleness accountable.
"For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat. For we hear that some among you walk in idleness, not busy at work, but busybodies. Now such persons we command and encourage in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly and to earn their own living." - 2 Thess 3:10-12.

And feel free to confirm for yourself:

Of all the nations in the world, America is the most generous to the poor.
Of all Americans, Republicans give more to the poor than Democrats.
Of the Republicans, Conservative Republicans give more to the poor than main stream Republicans.
Of Conservative Republicans, Evangelicals give more to the poor than non-Evangelicals.

Glad I could help
Sadly the most welfare goes to corporations, not to the poor.

On top of that most rich and corporations do not pay their fair share due to loopholes in the tax codes.

Then add to that the fact that since Eisenhower, corporate tax has been steadily in decline.

This would all be ended if there was a flat rate of tax. But no one wants that because there would be no hiding place from paying what you are due.
 

StanJ

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pom2014 said:
Sadly the most welfare goes to corporations, not to the poor.

On top of that most rich and corporations do not pay their fair share due to loopholes in the tax codes.

Then add to that the fact that since Eisenhower, corporate tax has been steadily in decline.

This would all be ended if there was a flat rate of tax. But no one wants that because there would be no hiding place from paying what you are due.
I agree...their tax breaks far outweigh what they end up contributing to the bottom line, as far as JOBS are concerned.

In my province, Alberta, we just elected the NDP party as our new government, and the first thing they spoke about in their new position as the government elect, was to increase corporate taxes AND royalties paid by the humongous oil companies who make billions and billions of profit off OUR resources. Of course the reaction by those companies was instantaneously vehement and not unexpected. Typical fear mongering rhetoric.
 

DogLady19

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Foreigner said:
When individual states tell people who are able to work (not working and do not have special needs or special needs children) that they will need to give 5-10 hours a week to a work program, thousands voluntarily drop off the program. How can they do that if they are indeed 'starving?'

Same with the rampant use of EBT cards at strip clubs, casinos, tattoo parlors and liquor stores. The left rants it is unfair to restrict how the money is spent, but the money was to FEED families, not provide a means of entertainment.


The top 1% pay 24% of all Federal Taxes
The top 10% pay just over 53% of all Federal Taxes
The bottom 50% pay less than 3% of all Federal Taxes

The argument then goes to "Yes, but the bottom 50% pay local, state, gas, and other taxes." True. But so does everyone else, including 'the rich.'

There are scores of the poor and needy who NEED our help. There are also scores on the welfare and food stamp roles who do not. They should not be there, but are because no one will hold their idleness accountable.
"For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat. For we hear that some among you walk in idleness, not busy at work, but busybodies. Now such persons we command and encourage in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly and to earn their own living." - 2 Thess 3:10-12.
It is a stereotype to presume that most welfare recipients are lazy cheating bums, and the GOP in their ignorance is the biggest perpetuator of that stereotype.

Only 10% of people on welfare are able-bodied. Of those, almost all of them already work while on welfare and get completely off welfare in less than 2 years (half in less than one year). Less than 7% of able-bodied adults stay on welfare until all their benefits run out.

Most welfare-to-work programs produce a very low or negative ROI. That's why people get off of them. NOT because they are lazy cheating bums.

Welfare fraud is not as prevalent as the media would like us to think. Using an EBT card at a casino makes the news because it is not common. A smaller percentage of welfare recipients are cheaters than the percentage of workers who cheat on their taxes.

And people are on welfare because churches are not doing their job in caring for the poor!

The top 1% pay 24% of all federal taxes because they make 22% of all the income. The Bottom 50% pay 17% of federal taxes.
Your GOP numbers are skewed.
 

River Jordan

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yachtmeme.jpg
 

Foreigner

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Doglady, it is actually your numbers that are 'skewed.'

These aren't the GOP numbers...They are the IRS numbers...

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/09inratesnap.pdf

Top .1% paid 17% of all federal taxes (that is point one percent)
Top 1% paid 37% of all federal taxes
Top 5% paid 59% of all federal taxes
Top 10% paid 70% of all federal taxes
Top 25% paid 87% of all federal taxes
Top 50% paid 98% of all federal taxes
BOTTOM 50% PAID 2% OF ALL FEDERAL TAXES

Sorry, but your claim that the bottom 50% pays 17% of federal taxes is simply baloney....

Our federal government is taking in RECORD revenue as of late and still running at a deficit.

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/ali-meyer/first-time-ever-federal-tax-revenues-top-1-trillion-thru-january-govt-still

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/oct/15/feds-tax-take-hits-all-time-high/?page=all

If it is RECORD revenue and the bottom 50% is paying only 2%, that means someone is paying MORE THAN THEY WERE BEFORE. And since the middle class (of which I am a member) is not paying a large amount more in taxes, then who is footing the bill for the increased tax revenue...yeah, you guessed it.

The problem isn't the amount of money going in. It is government's irresponsible use of the money they are taking in (as well s money they don't even have).

Hate to be the one providing the facts, but someone has to.
 

DogLady19

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Foreigner said:
Doglady, it is actually your numbers that are 'skewed.'

These aren't the GOP numbers...They are the IRS numbers...
...

The problem isn't the amount of money going in. It is government's irresponsible use of the money they are taking in (as well s money they don't even have).

Hate to be the one providing the facts, but someone has to.
Ok, so now show me what percent of FEDERAL INCOME TAXES go toward paying for welfare programs?

Using CBO numbers, largest chunk of our federal INCOME taxes goes to defense and paying for benefits to civilian gov't and military retirees. Welfare is a tiny fraction of what our income taxes pay for. Everyone who works pays into federal welfare programs that are separate from income tax obligations.

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2013/04/14/what-are-your-taxes-really-paying-for.aspx

And I'm glad you're providing facts! :) Federal taxes are more than just income taxes, so I understand your numbers now.
 

aspen

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DL - the Unitarian Church was a popular denomination during the 18th and 19th centuries - when I looked up how many presidents were Unitarian I was actually surprised that only 6 belonged to that denomination - there were far more Episcopalians.

Foreigner.....I am sure the poor widow who only gave a penny would really appreciate your tax payment breakdown list......oh wait....

And, I wonder why the rich man that Jesus instructed to give away all that he had and follow Him, didn't just say to Jesus, "it is easy to be generous and benevolent as a Democrat when you are demanding that someone ELSE give their money to care for the poor".
 

StanJ

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aspen said:
And, I wonder why the rich man that Jesus instructed to give away all that he had and follow Him, didn't just say to Jesus, "it is easy to be generous and benevolent as a Democrat when you are demanding that someone ELSE give their money to care for the poor".
Straw man aspen.
 

DogLady19

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aspen said:
DL - the Unitarian Church was a popular denomination during the 18th and 19th centuries - when I looked up how many presidents were Unitarian I was actually surprised that only 6 belonged to that denomination - there were far more Episcopalians.

Foreigner.....I am sure the poor widow who only gave a penny would really appreciate your tax payment breakdown list......oh wait....

And, I wonder why the rich man that Jesus instructed to give away all that he had and follow Him, didn't just say to Jesus, "it is easy to be generous and benevolent as a Democrat when you are demanding that someone ELSE give their money to care for the poor".
Yes, and the vast number of non-political founders, the colonists, were protestants. And Unitarianism in the 18th Century America was very different from today's Unitarianism. Now they are pan-religious. In the founders' days they were protestant Christians.
 

aspen

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DogLady19 said:
Yes, and the vast number of non-political founders, the colonists, were protestants. And Unitarianism in the 18th Century America was very different from today's Unitarianism. Now they are pan-religious. In the founders' days they were protestant Christians.
Well, if you consider nonTrinitarian churches, which embraced Deism, Christian.
 

River Jordan

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This image is from a study where Americans were asked what they think the current distribution of wealth is and what they think it should be, compared with what it actually is.

Actual_estimated_ideal_wealth_distribution.gif


As you can see, people realize things are skewed to the rich, but they greatly underestimate just how skewed things actually are.

So the next question is, how did this happen? As you can see here...

income_distribution_over_time.jpg


....it happened because since 1980 and the beginning of "trickle down economics", the super rich have taken up almost all the economic gains and very little has actually "trickled down". So when you hear about "redistribution of wealth" and/or "class warfare", keep in mind that the wealth has already been redistributed and the war already waged.

And the rich have won.
 

DogLady19

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aspen said:
Well, if you consider nonTrinitarian churches, which embraced Deism, Christian.
There wasn't a lot of deism in the founders' days either... That's just something American media likes to say... And not all deists were alike... Deists in America's early years was a small group of well-to-do elitists, much like the Freemasons (who are also deists, which confounds me since their start was in the Crusades!)

Deism, IMO, is a cult.
 

aspen

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s small elite group? You mean like the founding fathers? Washington DC was designed after free masonry - it is a monument to free masonry and deism. The constitution protected white male landowners - the elite protecting the elite