Rapture.. Are You Ready??

What in these verses says "secret" to you? I am really trying to understand that from your perspective. I see a very audible, and visible event complete with trumpets, angels, the dead coming out of their graves and destruction coming upon the unbelieving.

Wormwood said:

What in these verses says "secret" to you? I am really trying to understand that from your perspective. I see a very audible, and visible event complete with trumpets, angels, the dead coming out of their graves and destruction coming upon the unbelieving.

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Matt 24:40-41 NIV Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

Ok, well Matt 24:40-41 is not 1 Thess 4:14-17. That helps.

Let me ask, who are those who are "taken" and who are "left" behind in Matt 24:40-41? What verse tells you that its the Christians/faithful who are "taken"?

Wormwood said:

Ok, well Matt 24:40-41 is not 1 Thess 4:14-17. That helps.

Let me ask, who are those who are "taken" and who are "left" behind in Matt 24:40-41? What verse tells you that its the Christians/faithful who are "taken"?

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Well, since Matt 24:36-51 is about the day and hour unknown, we can confirm it is rapture. Believers in Christ are taken, nonbelievers are left behind. The days of Noah do not describe believers in Christ. (Matt 24:37-39 NIV As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.)

Here's another one..1 Thess 5:10 NIV He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

ATP said:

I believe we can know when the rapture will come. A good study of scripture proves Jesus comes like a thief to nonbelievers. The evidence is there. 1 Thess 5:4 NIV is clear on this matter. Matt 24:36 has unbeliever written all over it. If Matt 24:36 says we will not know the day, then why does 1 Thess 5:4 says we will know. The "Days of Noah" describe the flesh of the world, but scripture clearly states that we are no longer of this world. Matt 24:37-39 NIV. The day of the Lord will come like a thief to (nonbelievers).

Matt 24:36-39 NIV “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

1 Thess 5:1-4 NIV Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

- ATP

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Sorry but this is simply your interpretation of Scripture. This is not knowledge rather belief. You even explicitly state this in your opening statement, "I believe..."

justaname said:

Sorry but this is simply your interpretation of Scripture. This is not knowledge rather belief. You even explicitly state this in your opening statement, "I believe..."

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Well, I accompanied it with scripture. 1 Thess 5:4 NIV But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

It won't surprise me, because it's not happening in our lifetimes.

The whole fascination of end times is like building a hurricane resistant home in Wyoming. Then setting up your own radar to track hurricanes.

Or simply put it's like a broken pencil.

Well, since Matt 24:36-51 is about the day and hour unknown, we can confirm it is rapture.

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I agree that Jesus is talking about his Second Coming.

Believers in Christ are taken, nonbelievers are left behind. The days of Noah do not describe believers in Christ.

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I don't understand what you are saying. You used this verse to prove the rapture will be a secret event ("one will be taken, another will be left") and then you say this does not describe believers in Christ. So which is it? Does it describe the believers being taken or does it not? As you point out, Jesus is comparing his Second Coming to the flood in Noah's day (Peter also does this in 2 Peter 3). However, the problem I have is the ones who were "taken" in Noah's flood were the wicked. The one's who were "left behind" was Noah and his family. So, I just don't see how these verses prove a secret rapture of the believers as you previously claimed. If anything, it points to a day of judgment where the wicked will be "raptured" and destroyed and not a secret rapture of the righteous that leaves the wicked behind to continue on their merry way. There is nothing about Noah's flood that was silent, secretive or aimed at taking away the righteous and leaving the wicked untouched.

pom2014 said:

It won't surprise me, because it's not happening in our lifetimes.

The whole fascination of end times is like building a hurricane resistant home in Wyoming. Then setting up your own radar to track hurricanes.

Or simply put it's like a broken pencil.

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It's fun to talk about though, you learn more about scripture even though it's far off.

Wormwood said:

I don't understand what you are saying. You used this verse to prove the rapture will be a secret event ("one will be taken, another will be left") and then you say this does not describe believers in Christ. So which is it?

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Re-read my post, I stated, "Believers in Christ are taken, nonbelievers are left behind."

The days of Noah goes back to the thief. Jesus will come like a thief to (nonbelievers)...

1 Thess 5:1-4 NIV

1Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
4But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

I understand you believe that "believers are taken, nonbelievers are left behind." My question is, where are you getting this?

I asked you what Bible verse teaches a secret rapture of believers from the earth. Your response was, "Matthew 24:40-41"

“and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left.” (Matthew 24:39–41, ESV)

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So, I'm asking where these verses does it say that the believers are taken and the unbelievers are left behind? If this is the key verse that you use to prove a secret rapture of believers, where does it say that? It seems to be teaching the exact opposite to me, so I need your help concerning how you see this differently. As I look at these verses, I draw the following conclusions:

1) There is nothing here that seems secretive...since this "rapture" is compared with Noah's flood (which was not a secret).

2) During Noah's flood, the ones who are swept away are the wicked and the one who is left behind is the righteous.

I guess I need help seeing how you can read these verses and see a secret rapture that sweeps the righteous away rather than a world-wide judgment that judges and removes the wicked from the earth (which is what I see).

Wormwood said:

So, I'm asking where these verses does it say that the believers are taken and the unbelievers are left behind? If this is the key verse that you use to prove a secret rapture of believers, where does it say that? It seems to be teaching the exact opposite to me, so I need your help concerning how you see this differently. As I look at these verses, I draw the following conclusions:

1) There is nothing here that seems secretive...since this "rapture" is compared with Noah's flood (which was not a secret).

2) During Noah's flood, the ones who are swept away are the wicked and the one who is left behind is the righteous.

I guess I need help seeing how you can read these verses and see a secret rapture that sweeps the righteous away rather than a world-wide judgment that judges and removes the wicked from the earth (which is what I see).

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Not sure why you're not seeing it. Are you saying the Bible doesn't speak of a rapture of the church?

Matt 24:39-41 is rapture scripture, Jesus is using figurative language here....and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

I'm saying the Bible doesn't speak of a secret rapture that takes only the believers and leaves the unbelievers untouched on the earth for a period of time. I believe the righteous will be "caught up" to meet the Lord in the air and, in that same moment, the wicked will also be gathered and judged. So if you are referring to the "rapture" as the second definition, then yes, I believe in the rapture. If you are referring to "rapture" as a secret event that takes only the righteous and leaves the wicked, no, I don't believe that. I have never seen a verse in the Bible that indicated as much.

Wormwood said:

I'm saying the Bible doesn't speak of a secret rapture that takes only the believers and leaves the unbelievers untouched on the earth for a period of time.

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But it does WW.

Matt 24:40-41 NIV Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

1 Cor 15:50-54 NIV I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

1 Thess 4:14-17 NIV For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

1 Thess 5:10 NIV He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

Wormwood said:

I believe the righteous will be "caught up" to meet the Lord in the air and, in that same moment, the wicked will also be gathered and judged.

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That's why you don't see it brother, you're timing is off.
Scripture teaches us that the wicked are resurrected AFTER the 1,000 year reign.
The Great White Throne Judgment occurs only AFTER the 1,000 year reign, Rev 20:5 NIV.

Rev 20:4-6 NIV I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

ATP,

I agree that Jesus will return and we will all be changed. Again, can you show me anyplace that shows this even to be a secret?

Scripture teaches us that the wicked are resurrected AFTER the 1,000 year reign.
The Great White Throne Judgment occurs only AFTER the 1,000 year reign, Rev 20:5 NIV.

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Well, I think it is a mistake to view the book of Revelation chronologically.

“Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’ ”” (Matthew 13:30, ESV)

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“The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.” (Matthew 13:41–43, ESV)

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“For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:38–39, ESV)

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All these texts explicitly teach the judgment of the wicked first....and then the righteous shining and being glorified.

Wormwood said:

I agree that Jesus will return and we will all be changed. Again, can you show me anyplace that shows this even to be a secret?

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What do you mean when you refer to "secret".

Wormwood said:

Well, I think it is a mistake to view the book of Revelation chronologically.

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I disagree.

Wormwood said:

All these texts explicitly teach the judgment of the wicked first....and then the righteous shining and being glorified.

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Incorrect. There is only one judgment in the afterlife for believers and nonbelievers. The judgment seat of Christ (Bema) and the Great White Throne Judgment.

Matt 13:30 ESV - Verses 24-30 Jesus told another story to the people. This story shows how the *kingdom of heaven grows in the world. The farmer sowed good seeds of wheat in his field. At night, an enemy sowed weeds in the same field. The two types of seed grew up together. As they grew, the servants could see the difference. They saw that the wheat was producing grain. But the weeds did not have any grain. They knew that the farmer had planted good seeds. So, they asked him where the weeds came from. He told them that an enemy had planted the weeds. The farmer would not allow his servants to pull up the weeds until harvest time. If they had pulled up the weeds, it would have damaged some of the wheat. At harvest time, they would gather the weeds first and they would burn them. Then they would gather the wheat into the sheds, where they stored it. The weeds were probably a plant called darnel. These plants can carry a poison that is dangerous to people. Darnel is similar to wheat. You can see the difference clearly when the wheat produces grain. Darnel has stronger roots than wheat. The roots of both plants would grow together. If you pull out the darnel, its roots would disturb the roots of the wheat. If you allowed darnel seeds to remain with the wheat seeds in store, the poison could ruin the wheat. This story shows that the *kingdom and its enemies are both growing (increasing) in this world. The time will come when the *Lord Jesus will separate them. He will punish his enemies. And he will save (rescue) his people. Jesus explains this story in detail later (Matthew 13:36-43).

Matthew 13:41–43, ESV - This is about the lake of fire. Verses 36-43 Jesus left the crowd and he went back into the house. There the *disciples asked him to explain the story about the weeds in the field (Matthew 13:24-30). Something in the story was a puzzle to the *disciples. The man in the story means Jesus. He sows the seeds in the world. That process is continuous. His good news goes across the world, and brings people into a right relationship with God. They become the children of God. However, at the same time, the devil is active in the world. He is doing his evil work. The result is that many people in this world belong to him. Jesus referred to those people as the children of the devil. Either people belong to the *kingdom of heaven or they belong to the devil’s *kingdom. The two groups will continue to live together in this world until the time for Jesus’ return. Then the *angels will separate them. Jesus will send *angels to gather all that causes *sin from his *kingdom. The world belongs to him and therefore it is his *kingdom. The *angels will take away the people who belong to the devil. They will suffer a terrible punishment in hell. Their fate will be like a very hot fire. They will suffer with much pain in that place. But those people who believe in Jesus will live in God’s *kingdom. There they will share Jesus’ *glory.

Matthew 24:38–39, ESV - This passage has nothing to do with the afterlife.

- ATP

What do you mean when you refer to "secret".

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I mean the popular dispensational view of the rapture today where all the believers are quietly wisked away in a blink of an eye, leaving all the unbelievers to wonder where everyone went. The idea that secretly and suddently all the Christians vanish without the unbelievers seeing or hearing a thing. I don't see this concept anywhere in the Bible.

I disagree.

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I knew you would.

Incorrect. There is only one judgment in the afterlife for believers and nonbelievers. The judgment seat of Christ (Bema) and the Great White Throne Judgment.

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I don't know how I can be incorrect. The only thing I did was quote the passages and comment that they say the angels will come and gather, bind and burn the wicked first. Jesus compares his coming with the flood of Noah that came when the wicked were unexpecting and "swept them all away." I'm just quoting and highlighting what the passages themselves actually say. I am not adding anything to the verses here. Does it not say the angels will first gather and burn the wicked? Does it not say the coming of the Lord will be like Noah's flood that swept the wicked away? What is incorrect about my comments here?

Wormwood said:

I mean the popular dispensational view of the rapture today where all the believers are quietly wisked away in a blink of an eye, leaving all the unbelievers to wonder where everyone went. The idea that secretly and suddently all the Christians vanish without the unbelievers seeing or hearing a thing. I don't see this concept anywhere in the Bible.

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And you can find this image in Matt 24:40-41 and 1 Cor 15:50-54. The term "coming of the son of Man" is in regards to the first resurrection, rapture and God's wrath poured out. I don't think you're understanding the timeline here. The rapture will occur before the 3.5 year great tribulation. The term "great tribulation" is a term defined as "God's wrath" of trumpets and bowls being poured out on earth. Believers are not subject to God's wrath. The rapture of the church (believers in Christ) will occur BEFORE these 3.5 years.

Matt 24:40-41 NIV Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

1 Cor 15:50-54 NIV I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

Wormwood said:

I don't know how I can be incorrect. The only thing I did was quote the passages and comment that they say the angels will come and gather, bind and burn the wicked first. Jesus compares his coming with the flood of Noah that came when the wicked were unexpecting and "swept them all away." I'm just quoting and highlighting what the passages themselves actually say. I am not adding anything to the verses here. Does it not say the angels will first gather and burn the wicked? Does it not say the coming of the Lord will be like Noah's flood that swept the wicked away? What is incorrect about my comments here?

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The Matt 13 parable of the weeds is about the lake of fire.

Believe what you wish about the Rapture, but it was NOT a Johnny-come-lately 19th century invention of John Darby...

http://beginningandend.com/what-did-ancient-church-fathers-believe-about-the-rapture/

Irenaeus - (130 A.D. – 202 AD)

Cyprian - (200 AD – 258 AD)

Ephraim - (306 AD – 373 AD)

MYTH 4 — "The early Church Fathers believed in the Rapture and the millennial kingdom on earth."

This clever argument, used by Ryrie, LaHaye, Lindsey, and others, is effective in persuading those with little knowledge of historical theology or the beliefs of the early Church. True, several early Christian writers — notably Papias, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Methodius, Commodianus, and Lactanitus — were premillennialists who believed that Christ’s Second Coming would lead to a visible, earthly reign. But the premillennialism they embraced was quite different from that taught by modern dispensationalists.

Catholic scholars acknowledge that some of the Fathers were influenced by the Jewish belief in an earthly Messianic kingdom, while others embraced millennarianism as a reaction to the Gnostic antagonism toward the material realm. But the Catholic Church does not look to one Church Father in isolation — or even a select group of Fathers — and claim their teachings are infallible or definitive. Rather, the Church views their writings as valuable guides providing insights and perspectives that assist the Magisterium — the teaching office of the Church — in defining, clarifying, and defending Church doctrine.

Those early premillennialists did not hold to distinctively modern and dispensationalist beliefs, especially not the belief in a pretribulation Rapture and the radical distinction between an earthly and a heavenly people of God; such beliefs didn’t come about until many centuries later. The early Church Fathers, whether premillennialist or otherwise, believed that the Church was the New Israel and that Christians — consisting of both Jews and Gentiles (cf. Romans 10:12) — had replaced the Jews as God’s chosen people.

In attempting to prove the validity of their beliefs by appealing to early Church Fathers, dispensationalists always ignore the Church Fathers’ unanimous teachings about the nature of the Eucharist, the authority and nature of the Church, and a host of other distinctively Catholic beliefs. They also conveniently blur the lines between the historical premillennialism of certain early Church writers and the dispensational premillennialism of Darby and his disciples.

https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=5788

The rapture is a part of the Word of God, in the 66 books. What else do we need to know. B)