So the LORD made the universe and everything that is within in 6 days, yet it took 40 days to flood the earth according to your opinion, any explanation why it took 40 days?StanJ said:
Jesus would believe in Evolution?
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Despite your equivocation, my response was succinct. Prophesy is NOT the same as scripture, even though it does contain prophesy.Forsakenone said:
If the Gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost.StanJ said:
So you are saying it is sealed.StanJ said:
The point is that Paul actually said; "Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God.",Forsakenone said:
as he was dealing with the false accusations of the Jews. Then he goes on to qualify that even if it was hid as they claimed, it was hid from them as unbelievers, in their OWN minds and perception. Nice try at deflection, but the issue was PROPHESY not the Gospel.
As far as Genesis is concerned, it is factual. I have no idea how you are trying to equivocate here?
Equivocate: intransitive verbStanJ said:
use of equivocal (subject to two or more interpretations and usually used to mislead or confuse) language especially with intent to deceive.:
use unclear language especially to deceive or mislead someone. :
to avoid committing oneself in what one says.
While I believe you when you say that in your opinion the scriptures are factual, that is because you either lack the knowledge of principles or you reject them so you can twist and contort them all you want to establish what support what you want to declare is the truth. The truth of which will be revealed by your own words. Which might also include that you are just an innocent believer deceived by skewed translation of scripture of the NIV. And thus, the same might be said of myself nor do I hold myself to be above error.
However, at no time did I accuse you a intentionally deceiving anyone as you implied I am attempting, No? Yet, I did state that I did believe the canopy theory was in error. [See Post 84: As far as your rejection of the water canopy theory (as) being erroneous, I agree.] I heard it one said, “People makes claim but when asked to support it they become VERY ambivalent on the matter and just questions the IQ of the person asking the question rather than try and provide an answer.” Now I don’t know how you would characterize the nature of the following comment, “You really should not read the KJV if you can't understand it.”
However, I will suggest to you and to the reader that the scriptures are based upon principles. Principles are formed from precepts, not precept, and a principle does not change or alter over time, neither will they simply begin nor will they simply end since they were laid from the foundation of the universe and will continue until the end of the universe. They reveal what was true, what is true and what will always be true. Man cannot simply make up a principle but can only discover them. I would suggest might read the writings of Thomas Paine and others whose testimony on the subject can better explain the subject of principles, since there is safety in a multitude of counselors.
And in such I quoted the scripture written in 1 Peter 1:20, Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. In addition, I averred to Isaiah 29:11 wherein it is written, “And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:” Since I present my prophesy of scripture as my opinion, one should note John 14:26, “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.” Therefore I do what I am told.
Thus stating it is of private interpretation is itself based upon the precept, “For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” So therefore would not the prophesy of scripture refer unto the written word, since the scripture is written. Thus, are you prophesying what was spoken or what was written in Genesis 1:6-8. And if your prophesy of scripture is the only correct interpretation, is it the absolute meaning therefore leaving no other room for other to expound upon?
So in regards to the canopy theory itself, was the water on the earth frozen when it was divided or was it liquid water?
And thus, was the water that was formed the canopy of water above the sky frozen or was it liquid water?
As I stated in my opinion the waters that covered the entire face of the earth in Genesis 1:2 were frozen. In addition to what man has witnessed from actually being in the expanse of light that forms the firmament of space called heaven in Genesis 1:1, the scriptures bear witness to the waters upon the earth being completely frozen. As Thomas Paine stated, it is error only and not truth that shrinks from inquiry so hopefully don't mind these questions being posed.
However, while the firmament called Heaven in the KJV, it is called a vault in NIV. However, in Genesis 2, in verse 4 it is written, “These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,..”. Note, the plural use of heaven, since the firmament, or life giving expanse of space in Genesis 1:1 is called heaven, and the life giving expanse of space above the Earth is called Heaven. Thus if one heaven is singular then two would be heavens.
However, in the NIV, Genesis 1:1 begins “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” Would you care to explain what these two heavens of the NIV are referring unto? And in addition to Genesis 1:1 in the NIV, what are these heavens also cited in Genesis 2:1 and Genesis 2:4. While the NIV wasn't published until the 1970's, it does not even represent itself to be a literal translation of earlier Biblical texts, but rather a dynamic translation. However what execuse is given for the fatal flaw in its translation in Leviticus 11 where it clearly mistranslated the term 'fowl' into "flying insect" since a bird is not an insect.
I've gone through all your observations, and answered them previously. You keep regurgitating the same ones. Your attempt at pulling OUT verses to try and make them contradictory doesn't work with ANYONE. It is obvious you DON'T get the import or context of Gen 1.Forsakenone said:
THE NIV is far from skewed, but as you insist on using a 400+ year old translation, I can't really help you with modern day English if you don't want to accept it.
Apparently you are KJVO? The NIV employed 3 of the top 4 Greek scholars/translators of our time along with over 100 others scholars from all aspects of language studies.
Again your lack of understanding of the scriptures is well documented on this thread and I feel no comp-unction to continue to address you assertions when it is obvious your have NO desire whatsoever to learn the truth.
Again we see fundamentalists exhibit simplistic, black/white thinking and then declare that everyone who dares disagree with them "has no desire to learn the truth" (the truth of course being their simplistic, black/white beliefs).
So nice to know that we have God's personal spokesman right here on this forum, and if we ever need to know the truth about things, all we have to do is ask Stan and just take his infallible word for it.
So nice to know that we have God's personal spokesman right here on this forum, and if we ever need to know the truth about things, all we have to do is ask Stan and just take his infallible word for it.
In regards to the issue of the NIV being skewed, consider Leviticus 11:20
In the NIV, it is written in Leviticus 11:20 All flying insects that walk on all fours are to be regarded as unclean by you.
In the KJV, it is written in Leviticus 11: 20 All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you.
Since the flying creeping things and the fowls are two distinct classes, separated not only by their description but also the day of their creation then the translation of the NIV is flawed since it erroneously redefines the fowl as a flying insect.
In Genesis 1:20-21 it is written:
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Then in Gen 1:24-25 it is written:
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Consider the format of Leviticus 11: Verse 2 begins with the instructions regarding the beasts that are 'on' the earth.
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, These are the beasts which ye shall eat among all the beasts that are on the earth.
3 Whatsoever parteth the hoof, and is clovenfooted, and cheweth the cud, among the beasts, that shall ye eat.
4 Nevertheless these shall ye not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof: as the camel, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
5 And the coney, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
6 And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
7 And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.
8 Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you
And thus verse 8 concludes the instructions regarding the beasts that are upon the earth.
Thus in Leviticus 11:9-12 as an example of the format: Verse 9 begins with the instruction regarding aquatic creatures:
9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.
And thus verse 12 concludes the instructions regarding aquatic life
In Leviticus 11:13-20, verse 13 begins the instructions regarding the fowls
13 And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,
14 And the vulture, and the kite after his kind;
15 Every raven after his kind;
16 And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind,
17 And the little owl, and the cormorant, and the great owl,
18 And the swan, and the pelican, and the gier eagle,
19 And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.
20 All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you.
Thus, verse 20 concludes the instructions regarding the fowls.
Thus, in Leviticus 11:21-23, it begins with the instructions regarding of flying insects
21 Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth;
22 Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind.
23 But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you.
Thus, verse 23 concludes the instructions regarding the flying insects.
Lev 11:29-31
29 These also shall be unclean unto you among the creeping things that creep upon the earth; the weasel, and the mouse, and the tortoise after his kind,
30 And the ferret, and the chameleon, and the lizard, and the snail, and the mole.
31 These are unclean to you among all that creep: whosoever doth touch them, when they be dead, shall be unclean until the even.
So it is pretty obvious that the NIV mistranslated the passage of Leviticus 11:20, yet according to the NIV, can you name one flying insect that walks on all fours which is to be regarded as unclean by you? [This is going to be extremely difficult since all flying insects have 6 legs, but that would shut me up if you can name one flying insect that has four legs.]
In the NIV, it is written in Leviticus 11:20 All flying insects that walk on all fours are to be regarded as unclean by you.
In the KJV, it is written in Leviticus 11: 20 All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you.
Since the flying creeping things and the fowls are two distinct classes, separated not only by their description but also the day of their creation then the translation of the NIV is flawed since it erroneously redefines the fowl as a flying insect.
In Genesis 1:20-21 it is written:
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Then in Gen 1:24-25 it is written:
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Consider the format of Leviticus 11: Verse 2 begins with the instructions regarding the beasts that are 'on' the earth.
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, These are the beasts which ye shall eat among all the beasts that are on the earth.
3 Whatsoever parteth the hoof, and is clovenfooted, and cheweth the cud, among the beasts, that shall ye eat.
4 Nevertheless these shall ye not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof: as the camel, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
5 And the coney, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
6 And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
7 And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.
8 Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you
And thus verse 8 concludes the instructions regarding the beasts that are upon the earth.
Thus in Leviticus 11:9-12 as an example of the format: Verse 9 begins with the instruction regarding aquatic creatures:
9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.
And thus verse 12 concludes the instructions regarding aquatic life
In Leviticus 11:13-20, verse 13 begins the instructions regarding the fowls
13 And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,
14 And the vulture, and the kite after his kind;
15 Every raven after his kind;
16 And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind,
17 And the little owl, and the cormorant, and the great owl,
18 And the swan, and the pelican, and the gier eagle,
19 And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.
20 All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you.
Thus, verse 20 concludes the instructions regarding the fowls.
Thus, in Leviticus 11:21-23, it begins with the instructions regarding of flying insects
21 Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth;
22 Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind.
23 But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you.
Thus, verse 23 concludes the instructions regarding the flying insects.
Lev 11:29-31
29 These also shall be unclean unto you among the creeping things that creep upon the earth; the weasel, and the mouse, and the tortoise after his kind,
30 And the ferret, and the chameleon, and the lizard, and the snail, and the mole.
31 These are unclean to you among all that creep: whosoever doth touch them, when they be dead, shall be unclean until the even.
So it is pretty obvious that the NIV mistranslated the passage of Leviticus 11:20, yet according to the NIV, can you name one flying insect that walks on all fours which is to be regarded as unclean by you? [This is going to be extremely difficult since all flying insects have 6 legs, but that would shut me up if you can name one flying insect that has four legs.]
Most flying insects only use 4 of their legs to "creep"... the other two legs are used for balancing, gripping, or feeling ahead of the path they are on. It would make sense that an observer several millennia ago would see 4 legs and two hands.Forsakenone said:
I am not a King James Version only since it is written that man shall not live by bread alone but every word that proceedeth from the mouth of the LORD doth man live.StanJ said:
Name one that can walk on just four? That is to say only four of the six touch the ground during the rotation of movement of the legs.DogLady19 said:
Since 5 legs remain in contact of the ground during normal movement, yet all six contact the ground before the first leg used is used again.
Source http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/course/ent425/library/tutorials/external_anatomy/locomotion.html
Besides the grasshopper, locust, etc. I don't know off hand... I think you're right... so that means the winged four-legged creatures in Leviticus 11:23 may refer to bats.Forsakenone said:
I agree with you that the NIV may have made a mistake using the word "insect" in that passage. The word "flying" in Leviticus can refer to any creature with wings including birds.
Here's the issues at hand.StanJ said:
1. If the flood was worldwide why were there other people in Egypt, The Indus river valley and Mesopotamia flourishing?
2. God cannot force people to sin, incest is a sin. To repopulate the world from just Noah and his family would mean they would have to engage in sin.
3. There is not one genetic structure that is of Semitic origin in Sino, Celtic, Polynesian or Aboriginal Australians. So how are they NOT Semitic if everyone came from Noah and his family whom were Semites?
The word erets is not being used in the correct context given the evidence we have.
You say the KJV is right in it's translation and yet the following 5 major modern translations don't agree with you..Forsakenone said:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Lev%2011%3A20&version=NRSV;NET;ISV;NASB;HCSB
Do birds walk on all fours? In any event I won't bother pursuing this as many have shown this issue to not be an actual issue.
Here's a link for you.
http://honeycombadventures.com/2013/07/leviticus-1120-23-insects-that-walk-on-four-legs/
Anyway, here ya go;
It was world wide so obviously there were NO people left in those areas.pom2014 said:
When was incest made a sin?
Can't answer that, as I'm not a geneticist.
Well those people lived and flourished there at that time that bible scholars say the flood occurred.StanJ said:
Now either their chronology is wrong or erets means region.
Incest was sin from day one, God does not change.
Born_Again
Well-Known Member
I'm going to comment on the KJV vs NIV as well as other translations. Please tell me you all consider when each of the versions were written. You must take into consideration the vocabulary and what words meant at different times in history. That being said, if you have a thesaurus, you can easily see a lot of words mean the same thing. I have taken 1 single verse from 5 different versions of the Bible and picked them apart to show that each verse means the same thing. It should all be interpreted to mean the same thing. Even the disaster that is the New Living Translation.
BA
BA
So you're saying you believe historians over Christian scholars and you believe historical accounts over the Bible?pom2014 said:
Well you'd have to SHOW that pom, FROM scripture.
Here is a six legged butterfly walkingDogLady19 said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPoOQqWb1i0
So the question is whether the flying creeping thing has legs above its feet, or does it have four feet.
Now here is a grasshopper walking,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzmLZMyvVj0
If bats have six legs then the precept would most definitely be referring unto bats also in Leviticus 11:23, but if bats were after the kind called fowls made during what is called Day 5 then I would ask the Holy Ghost what to do since I am primarily posting this for entertainment purposes, anything someone might learn is strictly coincidence and not the responsibility of the poster.
I will leave the answer to the question on whether it was deliberate attempt at lying for the LORD by altering His Word to hide what was perceived as factual error regarding a fowl that goes upon all four, or just a honest error, to the Holy Ghost himself. [Proverbs 30:6][Rev 3:19]DogLady19 said:
But do you know what flying insect that was formed during the period called Day 6 is actually a flesh eating carnivore?
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