7 World Empires and Bible Prophecy

DogLady19 said:

Jesus' ultimate sacrifice causes daily sacrifices to cease. It really is that simple.

When He died on the cross, God himself tore the veil from the Holy of Holies, thereby desecrating the place where acceptable sacrifices can be made. Matthew 27:51

No amount of cleansing can return the daily sacrifice once the Holy of Holies is defiled... and if there is no tamid, there is no sacrifice for atonement either. Leviticus 1 & Daniel 8:14

There is no return to Old Testament sacrificial systems mentioned in Daniel or elsewhere after the life of Christ.

The "specified time" in Daniel is the time Jesus had to bring and confirm the New Covenant then fulfill the law by becoming the ultimate and final tamid, sacrificial lamb AND scape goat.
Hebrews 9:16-28

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I agree that you could interpret it that way. I don't think I have ever stated otherwise. However, since you didn't answer my last question I would have to assume that you don't have any related prophetic passages to back up the claim that Dan 9:27 is talking about Jesus. And based on the fact that there are several related prophetic passages that would strongly suggest that this is talking about the AC I would argue that this considerably weakens the case for the interpretation you put forth.

keras said:

Good discussion here.
I mostly agree with toknowthetruth with the literal fulfilment of the prophesies of the last days.
But neither of you seem to see that there must be some kind of dramatic event in order to commence the lead up to the Return of Jesus.
The one that will be a world changer is the Sixth Seal. What is prophesied the happen then and described many times in the Bible, will be a terrible devastation of fire from the sun, a one Day event that will literally fulfil all the prophesies about it.
This will force the nations to give up their sovereignty and form a OWG.
But it is also the Psalm 83 destruction of virtually all the Middle East. Ezekiel 30:1-5

D.L. says: There is no return to Old Testament sacrificial systems mentioned in Daniel or elsewhere after the life of Christ.
Ezekiel 40-48 are chapters that clearly tell of a new Temple and of all the Lord's righteous people living in all of the Holy Land. Rev. 7:9 The Shekinah Glory of God WILL come into this Temple. Eze. 43:2 After Jesus does Return, then the sacrificial purifications will cease.
logostelos.info

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Hi keras,

Glad to have you join us in our discussion. I do agree that there will be a dramatic event to bring about a one world government under the rule of the AC. However I don't see the sixth seal as that event. In fact I see the sixth seal as the ending part of an overview of time from John's day till the destruction of Gog and Magog starting with the first seal and ending with the sixth seal.

I believe that the event that will bring the AC to power will be some kind of economic disaster greater than has ever been experienced in the past that will shift the balance of power to countries that will be in league with the AC. This will put him in a position to have enough support to "confirm the covenant". This most likely will be some kind of international peace agreement that will possibly declare Jerusalem as an international city and somehow include permission for the Jews to rebuild their temple.

As concerning the return of the OT sacrificial system I'm not real familiar the interpretation of those passages in Ez. I would be interested if you could give in a nutshell how those passages are talking about a different temple than the one that was built by the Jews in the book of Ezra? About the shekinah glory I'm a little doubtful about that part. Seems to me that the sacrificial worship in question would be just a going through the motions without any real significance since Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice which brought an end to those things. I envision it as similar to the Jews going through the motions after Jesus was resurrected until the destruction of the temple in 70 AD.

keras said:

The Seals, Trumpets and Bowls, as given in Revelation is practically our only true sequence of events. Don't mess with them!
It is evident that the first five Seals are now open, history and hindsight tell us that.
Therefore the Sixth Seal is the next prophesied event we can expect, it IS the Lord's Day of wrath, the terrible judgement/punishment of the nations. Prophesied throughout the Bible as fire from the heavens, from the sun, Isaiah 30:26, Malachi 4:1, 2 Peter 3:7.

That there will be another Temple is clear from 2 Thess 2:4.
I suggest you re read Ezekiel 40-48, but first look at Eze. 20:34-38, Eze 39:21-29
It will be the Lord's righteous people who will occupy all of the Holy land, they will build the Temple, Zech 6:15, they will greet Jesus at His eventual Return with the shout: Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord!

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I agree with you that the sixth seal is about the second coming of Christ. But the way I see it the sixth seal is also about the destruction of Gog and Magog at the end of the Millennium, in particular verses 14-16 of Rev. 6.

For the sequence of events of Revelation I see it this way. The six seals are an overview from John's time till the end of the Millennium. The seventh seal opens up to the seven trumpets of the tribulation. Then the seven vials cover the wrath of God which occur after the rapture. For a more detailed account of the chronological order I subscribe to see the other thread I started here: http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/21443-outline-of-revelation/

I agree with you that there will be another temple. What I still don't quite get the connection for is how Ezekiel's temple is not the temple that was built by the Jews after the return of captivity in Ezra's day. You might need to give me a little more help on this one.

keras said:

The Sixth Seal is NOT the Second coming of Jesus. That doesn't happen until after all the trumpets and Bowls happen, etc. 13 chapters later. The attack by Gog is also a separate event before the Return.
The first five Seals are already open, the souls of the martyrs - from Stephen until now, proves that.

[SIZE=medium]The Third Temple – Beit HaMikdesh[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Ezekiel 40,41 & 42 Ezekiel measures the future Temple and its precincts.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Ezekiel 43 to 48 Details of the Temple furnishings and the Land divisions, etc.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Haggai 2:6-9 In a little while, I shall shake the heavens, the earth, the sea and all the nations. I will fill this House with their treasures. This latter House will be greater than former.[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] In this place, I shall grant prosperity and peace. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium] [The Second Temple was not greater than Solomon’s Temple. Ezra 3:12] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Zechariah 1:16-17 These are the words of the Lord; I have returned to Jerusalem with compassion, My House is to be rebuilt there.[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] My cities will again brim with prosperity, once again the Lord will comfort Zion and make Jerusalem the city of His choice. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]2 Thess 2:3-4 The Return of Jesus cannot come until the man doomed to destruction is revealed and enthrones himself in God’s Temple, [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]claiming to be God. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Revelation 11:1 John measures the Temple. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium] [What could be clearer than that? The Temple must be rebuilt before the Tribulation and the Return.][/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Daniel 9:27....He will put a stop to the sacrifices and offerings, then will set up an abomination in the Holy place[/SIZE][SIZE=medium].[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Malachi 3:1 I am about to send My messenger to clear a path before Me. Suddenly, the Lord, whom you seek, will come into His Temple.[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] The messenger of the Covenant, whom you desire, will come to you.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Reference REB, NIV some verses abridged[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Jewish Midrash sources say that the messenger is the Messiah ben Joseph, who will be the leader of the 10 tribes of Israel when they return to the Land and he will instigate the rebuilding of the Temple. Jeremiah 30:21[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Further on, it is mentioned again in Haggai 2:21, the shaking and overthrowing of kings and how the Lord will break the power of the heathen realms. As we see in verses 6-9 this happens before the rebuilding and therefore, the regathering of His people.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]It is likely that the Lord will use the next prophesied event, the Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, centred on the Middle East, to ‘break the power of the heathen realms’. This will enable His people, righteous Israel to settle into the Land of Greater Israel and build the Temple.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]It is not possible, at present for the Jewish State of Israel to build anything on the Temple mount. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]1/ They have handed control of the area to the Muslims.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]2/ Any move to start construction would trigger a war.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]3/ Orthodox Jews, especially Ultra Orthodox, are forbidden or dare not go onto the Mount, for fear of stepping onto the place of the Holy of Holies. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]4/ Atheist Jews [half the population] are not interested or don’t want a Temple.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Zechariah 6:15 Men from far away will come and work on the rebuilding of Y’hovah’s Temple. This will come about if you listen to and obey your God. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Ezekiel 43:4 The glory of the Lord comes into the temple via the East gate.[/SIZE]

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When I say the second coming I mean specifically the rapture. I'm referring to the comparative relationship between Rev 6:12 and Matt 24:29. I guess we don't see eye to eye on the chronological order of the events in Rev.

Concerning Ezekiel's temple, I just want to make one thing clear. I do believe the Jews will rebuild their temple one more time according to what I read in the prophecies about the end-time. However, I still don't know if I'm convinced of the connection of the passages from Ezekiel, Zechariah and Haggai to the third temple when it would be more likely chronologically that they are referring to the second temple? You did mention the verse about the latter glory being greater than the former. Some have interpreted this as the latter being greater in glory because of Jesus coming physically into that temple. This could be a possible interpretation.

The Jewish Midrash? I don't know how much weight to put on that one. What other basis is there for connecting these verses to the third temple? I could have missed some things about this from what you've already posted. If so, I would appreciate it if you could point them out again.

Regarding the rebuilding of the temple today, I see it possibly unfolding like this. There will be a seven year international peace agreement which the AC will negotiate that will be to bring peace between the Jews and Palestinians. This agreement will include proclaiming Jerusalem to be an international city, and include permission for the Jews to rebuild their temple. As far as location is concerned, it's very possible that the Jews will put forth the argument that according to Jewish scripture the Mosque of Omar is not located on the actual building site where the Jewish temple was built, only in the proximity of it. This is already being argued today. This may be how they get around that problem.

keras said:

It isn't just the Jews who will build the new Temple, but all of righteous Israel, that as we know from Romans 9:6 & Ephesians 2:11-18, can be people from every race or language. Rev. 7:9
They will gather in all of the Holy Land soon after it is cleared and cleansed by the forthcoming judgement/punishment of the nations by fire. Isaiah 63:1-6, Psalm 83
What you think of as a 'rapture', is in fact a gathering - Ezekiel 34:11-31, Jer. 33:12-13, Amos 9:13-15

The Dome of the Rock and Al Asqua Mosque will be gone, after the Lord's Day of wrath. Amos 9:5 & 11-12, Psalm 68:29

Re the chronological order of Revelation: There IS some information given, of previous events, that is not in strict order, but the Seals first, then later, the Trumpets and bowls of the Great Trib happen in the 3.5 years before the Return. Mixing them up. or saying the Seals are just an 'overview', is incorrect and denies the clear and concise prophecy that we are given.

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The rapture a gathering? If you mean a gathering as in "on the earth", well I suppose you could possibly interpret it that way. From the scriptures I read sounds to me like we're heading upward to Heaven for the marriage supper, and after that returning to earth to finish off the battle of Armageddon.

With Revelation I agree that the trumpets happen during the Great Trib. The way I see it the bowls occur after the rapture which happens at the 7th trump. If you want to call that part of the Great Trib I guess you could. I usually consider it to be after since the 1260 days are finished at that point.

You'd have to be more explicit about why saying the seals are an overview is incorrect. As far as I can tell it makes perfect sense.

keras said:

Tkt, your time for the rapture is as Paul states in 1 Thess 4:16-17. This, is as you say, at the Return of Jesus.
But what we are discussing is events before that, we haven't even started on the 70 'week'= 7 years of Daniel yet. Much is prophesied for the last period, leading up to the Return.
With the Seals, the way they are described is that they are opened as John watched and we know from history that the almost continuous wars, terrible famines, pandemic plagues and economic trials the world has experienced since that time, causing an estimated 1/3 of the total deaths, Seals 1,2,3 &4 are open.
Seal 5 is also open as the souls of all the martyrs from Stephen are kept under the Altar. More are added every day.
This is confirmed by Zechariah 1:8-11 & 6:1-8
Therefore the Sixth Seal is the next prophesied event we can expect. From what is described and paralleled in many other prophesies, it will be the event that will change the world, setting the scene for the establishment of a OWG and the rise of the Anti-Christ. But also, many prophesies say how the Lord will gather His righteous people and settle them into all of the Holy Land. Ezekiel 34:11-31
logostelos.info - for more details

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I agree that we have yet to enter into the last 7 years of the 490 years or 70 weeks (sevens) of Daniel. I also agree that the first five seals have been happening since John's day, although I don't see them as happening in succession but simultaneously throughout time from John's day forward.

I would still hold to the 6th seal as referring to the events of both the rapture and the destruction at the end of the Millennium. The main reason being that the language is too closely paralleling these events.

Since the other five seals are spanning over the past 2,000 years it also seems likely that the 6th seal would be similar in that respect. In other words, seems to me it would similarly deal with events over a large general span of time not a single event of a short focused amount of time.

keras said:

We are in agreement, the first five Seals are open and have all been causing the described effects since the 1st century.

The way the Sixth Seal is written is much more suited to a one Day interpretation, This matches prophesies like Isa 9:14, Isa10:17, Isa 29:6, Zech. 3:9b.
It is called the Day of the Lords wrath and the cosmic events could hardly extend over a lengthy period.

There has to be some kind of dramatic event to commence the lead up to the Return.
Most Bible scholars and all who read agree that you cannot open a scroll without first removing the seals.

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I agree that you could interpret the sixth seal as a one day event. However, I feel that the interpretation I put forth is more compelling because of the reasons I mentioned before. Also this interpretation isn't that cosmic events are extending over a lengthy period, but rather two cosmic events that occur at different points in a lengthy period, one just before the beginning of the Millennium and one at the end.

Regarding the lead up to the Return, I agree with you that there will be some kind of dramatic event. However I see not just one dramatic event but several dramatic events occuring. I see the establishing of the 7 year peace plan by the AC as a dramatic event. I also see the breaking of the covenant and the abomination of desolations, or the image of the beast being placed in the rebuilt temple as dramatic events, as well as the 3.5 year of tribulation where the plagues of the 6 trumpets are being unleashed. But, if I understand right, you have a different perspective on the sequence of events before the Return than I do, or at least the timing of the Return.

About the statement regarding removing the seals, I'm not sure how that applies in this particular situation. Maybe you could elaborate a bit more on that.

keras said:

Rev. 5:1-2 In his vision, John saw a scroll, a paper roll, that was sealed up with seven seals. It couldn't be unrolled until the seals were removed.
Do you think this is purely allegorical? If you do, you are fairly lonely in that belief.

No, it must be an actual scroll, Jesus takes it from the Father and proceeds to remove the seals. That there is a earthly time gap after the fifth Seal, is obvious to us, as what is described the first five has happened, but not yet the Sixth.

I read an interesting explanation about the scroll. Firstly, no-one in heaven was found worthy to open it, Rev 5:3. Then in verse 6, John sees the Lamb, with the marks of sacrifice on Him and He proceeds to break the seals, Rev 6:1.
So this scene must have taken place just as Jesus ascended to heaven. Acts 1:9

Yes, there will be many dramatic events, but the Sixth Seal is the first one and from all the descriptions of the Day of the Lord's wrath, prophesied in the Bible, it will be a world changer. I know there will be others, but they are not my focus.
We should not be in the dark about the forthcoming sudden destruction.

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With the seals being literal or allegorical I think you could easily argue that both ways. And being alone in a belief doesn't necessarily mean you're wrong. In fact, if it was indeed a true belief, the way I see it, one might be in good company with many of the prophets. Not a good criteria for basing a judgment on a belief in my opinion.

However, my question is in regards to how your statement relates to the interpretation of the prophecies. To me, as the seals are opened aspects of the future are being revealed. Once the seventh seal is opened, signifying the opening of the scroll, so to speak, it leads into the revelation of events during the great trib giving details with the blowing of each of the seven trumpets. At least that's how it appears to me, with the last trumpet being the rapture of the saints and the revealing of the bowls of the wrath of God.

I don't see any reason why the seals would have to be confined to the period of time before the time period that the scroll is revealing. In fact it would seem quite possible to me that what is being revealed in the seals is quite likely a sort of introduction to the scroll itself, giving an overview of the future from beginning to end before delving into the specific details of the major events of the end time till the New Heaven and New Earth.

Based on this my focus is on the signing of the covenant which will usher in the last 7 years before the rapture. I don't think this will be done in the dark, but even if it is the rebuilding of the temple will not. That's what I'm keeping a look out for.

keras said:

The Seals just a aspect of the future?
Here's an aspect of the past: Over the last nearly 2000 years it is conservatively estimated that over a quarter of the earths population that has lived in that period have been killed by war, died from famine or diseases often as a result of economic reasons. The first four Seals in operation.
With the Fifth Seal, ever since Stephen was stoned to death and early Christians were fed to the lions, their souls have been kept under God's altar. Where else?

The reason the Seals come before the Trumpets and Bowls, is that is the sequence John saw them and he said we shouldn't mess with his book.

How can the 7 year treaty be signed yet? We don't have a One World Govt, let alone it's dictator leader.
These things will come and the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster will set the scene.

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I agree that at this point in time the seals include past events. However, when John received his vision all these things revealed in the seals were about the future, or at least from the present time in John's day till the New Heaven and New Earth. That's the starting point I'm referring to.

I agree that the seven year treaty hasn't been signed yet. However I'm not convinced a worldwide disaster of the type you're talking about will set the scene. From the way things look right now I'm guessing it will be an economic disaster that will give rise to this event. Even now there are plans to replace the dollar as the predominant international currency. If that happens, which it has to sooner or later considering the enormous US debt, that will be a crushing blow to the US as an economic superpower. Right now it's really the US that enables Israel to defy the rest of the world regarding the creation of a Palestinian state free from direct Israeli control. With the US in a weakened state, the AC, who I believe will be ruling from Russia, will be in a position with the help of Europe to pressure Israel, who will no longer be in a position to ignore the rest of the world, into following the UN mandates. This will be the "confirming" of the 7 year peace plan. That will set the stage for the last 7 years before the rapture.

keras said:

The NHNE, doesn't come until the end of the Millennium. Rev 21
What we are discussing here is all that must happen before the Return.
It isn't me that should convince you of the forthcoming worldwide disaster by fire, but the Bible prophets. They have described this event over 100 times.
Jesus Himself said His coming as the Son of Man, will be like a lightening flash and many will die. Matthew 24:27-28 Then - AFTER that..... He will Return, as the Word of God. Rev 19:13 Robed in a garment splashed in blood, from His previous judgement of the nations. Isaiah 63:1-6

Your focus on the world economic situation is misplaced. God' s focus is on His Holy Land. Deut. 11:12 When: very soon, an Islamic confederation goes to attack Israel, then the Lord will spring into action! Psalm 83, Isaiah 42:14-15 He will instigate a massive CME that will literally fulfil all it is prophesied to do. The world will not be the same again.

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You're correct that the NHNE doesn't come till the end of the Mil. What I said regarding the seals is that they will cover up till the NHNE. According to your interpretation the destruction of Gog and Magog just before the NHNE isn't mentioned in the sixth seal. It is in mine. That's where we disagree.

Regarding the events leading up to the Return, that's one way to interpret the prophecies you mentioned. I don't see it that way myself. In regards to Matt. 24:27-28 I see it as a reference to the verses that follow in Matt 24 about the rapture. Rev 19:13 to me will happen at the culmination of Armageddon just before the dawn of the Millennium.