The law or Grace

Umm. No. You are using inferrential theology here. The law of moses and law of God are used interchangably, and both have passed away.

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You are very wrong....Jesus said in Matthew 5 "heaven and earth will pass away but nothing will change in the law until all is fulfilled" He was obviously referring to the en"d times/tribulation and His return....so heaven and earth are still here so the God's law is still in effect...
Apostle John said in 1st John "this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments and they are NOT burdensome.and Paul said in Romans 2 it is DOERS of the law that are justified, NOT hearers of the law" and Do we make void that law through faith? God forbid. We establish the law.....

heretoeternity said:

You are very wrong....Jesus said in Matthew 5 "heaven and earth will pass away but nothing will change in the law until all is fulfilled" He was obviously referring to the en"d times/tribulation and His return....so heaven and earth are still here so the God's law is still in effect...
Apostle John said in 1st John "this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments and they are NOT burdensome.and Paul said in Romans 2 it is DOERS of the law that are justified, NOT hearers of the law" and Do we make void that law through faith? God forbid. We establish the law.....

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Why do you think it's talking about the end times? Actually, Jesus fulfilled the law and thus, it's passed away.

So again... What are the commandments? Is it the law of Moses or is there something else that John stated in both Chapters 3 and 4 of 1 John that is the commandments we are to keep?

Please.... Answer the question.

Are you really that blind you do not know the difference between the sacrificial laws of Moses, and God's law the ten commandments? Obviously you are...I suggest you read Exodus 20 where God wrote His ten commandments Himself on the stone tablets...this is God's law and it is written on stone, as a sign of permanency. As I pointed out in my post that you cannot seem to understand plain English language the words of Jesus in Matthew 5, confirming the permanency of God's law...there are many other Biblical references that support God's law being in effect...but you chose to ignore them, thats your problem...as Peter says in 2nd Peter 3.16 you ignore God's law which result in your own destruction....
Suggest you mature as a christian and pray a lot for understanding about this basic elementary part of the Christian walk.

heretoeternity said:

Are you really that blind you do not know the difference between the sacrificial laws of Moses, and God's law the ten commandments? Obviously you are...I suggest you read Exodus 20 where God wrote His ten commandments Himself on the stone tablets...this is God's law and it is written on stone, as a sign of permanency. As I pointed out in my post that you cannot seem to understand plain English language the words of Jesus in Matthew 5, confirming the permanency of God's law...there are many other Biblical references that support God's law being in effect...but you chose to ignore them, thats your problem...as Peter says in 2nd Peter 3.16 you ignore God's law which result in your own destruction....
Suggest you mature as a christian and pray a lot for understanding about this basic elementary part of the Christian walk.

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We are no longer under the law. We are now under grace hereto. God will keep His promises...

Rom 4:13-25 NIV It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. 16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.” He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not. 18Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 19Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead. 20Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

FHII said:

So again... What are the commandments? Is it the law of Moses or is there something else that John stated in both Chapters 3 and 4 of 1 John that is the commandments we are to keep?

Please.... Answer the question.

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Let's help him out...

John 13:34-35 NIV “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

John 15:12 NIV My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.

John 15:17 NIV This is my command: Love each other.

Gal 5:6 NIV For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

Gal 5:14 NIV For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

1 Tim 1:3-7 NIV As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer 4or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work—which is by faith. 5The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6Some have departed from these and have turned to meaningless talk. 7They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

1 John 3:23 NIV And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

1 John 4:21 NIV And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

2 John 1:5-6 NIV And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. 6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

Heretoeternity,

You have offered me nothing new. Do you think I've never read exo 20 or matthew 5? I'm not blind. I'm also not gullible to fall for inferrential theology.

What happens in the development of inferrential theology is that people take solid truths (like that God wrote the 10 commandments on stone with his finger) and draw conclusions from it that are not true (for example, because God wrote them himself, thats the law of God and therefore still in effect).

It's hard to prove or disprove inferrential theology because its built on truths. But its built wrong and not impossible to disprove.

So concerning exo 20. Yes, God did write them himself, THEN he dictated the rest to Moses. So the law of Moses as you want to call it was still fom God. Its called the law of Moses because God gave it to him and he gave it to the people. Thats true for law 1-10, and law 11-620.

Next, Matthew 5 does say not one jot or tittle shall pass till all be fulfilled. I may have paraphrased, but there's another truth. Problem is that the verse before that says Jesus didn't come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it.

He did that. Mission accomplished. Thus, Paul was commissioned to preach the new covenant.

I have claimed that the terms "law of Moses" and "law of God" were used interchangably. I also claimed that regardless, both that which was written in stone and with ink has passed away. Yet you seem as eager to hear what verses I have as you are to answer my question about what comnandments Jesus said we must keep.

Okay, your free will says you do not believe in the Commandments of God, let alone keeping them...then here is what the Bible says will happen to those such as yourself...Revelation 22...Blessed are they that do God's commandments, so they may enter the Holy city through the gates. Outside are the dogs, socerers, whoremongers etc etc etc..you want to be one of them? Looks like it!

Why must this turn into an OSAS vs Arminianism issue?

The OP has nothing to do with that.

We will always be under the law. Whether saved or not. The law pleased God and nothing that God says or pleases Him will ever be insignificant. It is NOT obeying law vs Grace. That is such a dumb comparison. It is New covenant VS old. When Paul says you not under the law he is referring to the whole law (good and bad) / old covenant / IE dealing with God on a promise basis (not not obeying the ten commandments or such :blink.

Old covenant: Murder, I promise you will be stoned. Tithe, I promise you will receive tenfold. Don't tithe I promise you will be cursed. Leave Egypt, I promise land of milk and honey.

New covenant: We have Jesus in our hearts. The law is fuflilled. Hence we are able to tithe expecting nothing. We are able to walk to Israel even if its the land of sand and mud.

heretoeternity said:

Okay, your free will says you do not believe in the Commandments of God, let alone keeping them...then here is what the Bible says will happen to those such as yourself...Revelation 22...Blessed are they that do God's commandments, so they may enter the Holy city through the gates. Outside are the dogs, socerers, whoremongers etc etc etc..you want to be one of them? Looks like it!

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I'm not worried. I know what God's commandments are. And I keep them.

heretoeternity said:

Okay, your free will says you do not believe in the Commandments of God, let alone keeping them...then here is what the Bible says will happen to those such as yourself...Revelation 22...Blessed are they that do God's commandments, so they may enter the Holy city through the gates. Outside are the dogs, socerers, whoremongers etc etc etc..you want to be one of them? Looks like it!

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Well, the perseverance of the saints say we will keep His commandments because God keeps His promises.
Dogs is what we used to be hereto, but not anymore...
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified..

1 Cor 6:9-11 NIV / Eph 2:3 NIV Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

You sound confused ATP.......you should know by now, you are saved by God's grace, through Jesus sacrifice for us, and then repentance follows (turning away from sin, which is transgression of God's law 1st John)...
As Paul says in Romans "it is DOERS of the law that are justified, not hearers"

heretoeternity said:

You sound confused ATP.......you should know by now, you are saved by God's grace, through Jesus sacrifice for us, and then repentance follows (turning away from sin, which is transgression of God's law 1st John)...
As Paul says in Romans "it is DOERS of the law that are justified, not hearers"

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Well your pist confuses me. If we are saved by grace, but still must keep the law, what was the point of grace? I mean, grace through faith was instituted because no one could keep the law.

No one seems interested in answering my questuon about what commandments Jesus said we should keep. I can understand that. No one wants to admit that its: 1. Love the Lord with all thy heart.... and 2. Love the brethren. Thats it!

I already know whats coming next. People will say that you do that by keeping the 10 Commandments. But that isn't so. If you keep the two you fulfill the requirement of all the law of God (not just the 10 comnandments, but every part of the Law of Moses).

In short these folks have it backwards. They are trying to fulfill the 2 commandments by keeping the 10 commandments.

heretoeternity said:

You sound confused ATP.......you should know by now, you are saved by God's grace, through Jesus sacrifice for us, and then repentance follows (turning away from sin, which is transgression of God's law 1st John)...
As Paul says in Romans "it is DOERS of the law that are justified, not hearers"

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Right hereto, and that's what saints do. They repent because of the perseverance of the saints.

Why do you not believe the testimony of the saints? Are you calling God a liar? Maybe you should repent of that.

1 John 5:9-14 NIV / Psa 21:4 NIV We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

FHII said:

Well your pist confuses me. If we are saved by grace, but still must keep the law, what was the point of grace? I mean, grace through faith was instituted because no one could keep the law.

No one seems interested in answering my questuon about what commandments Jesus said we should keep. I can understand that. No one wants to admit that its: 1. Love the Lord with all thy heart.... and 2. Love the brethren. Thats it!

I already know whats coming next. People will say that you do that by keeping the 10 Commandments. But that isn't so. If you keep the two you fulfill the requirement of all the law of God (not just the 10 comnandments, but every part of the Law of Moses).

In short these folks have it backwards. They are trying to fulfill the 2 commandments by keeping the 10 commandments.

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and he says I'm confused.

ATP said:

and he says I'm confused.

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Not sure what you mean by that, ATP.

The doctrine of grace + law or works confuses me. I don't see it as sound when I take everything in the NT in consideration. Paul fought against it as well.

Good works I get. Good works are properly promoting the gospel and loving the brethren.

FHII said:

Not sure what you mean by that, ATP.

The doctrine of grace + law or works confuses me. I don't see it as sound when I take everything in the NT in consideration. Paul fought against it as well.

Good works I get. Good works are properly promoting the gospel and loving the brethren.

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The whole non-osas doctrine stems from confusion. It's disgusting.

FHII said:

If we are saved by grace, but still must keep the law, what was the point of grace? I mean, grace through faith was instituted because no one could keep the law.

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Very true ATP...grace was introduced (and mercy too) because no-one kept God's commandments. In other words, they were sinners. My problem with the claim that grace removes the law from the equation, is that if that was the purpose of grace, it leaves the sinner a sinner. It does nothing to change human nature. It simply leaves us poor helpless sinful hopeless addicted habit-bound weak men and women as we are. If grace and law are incompatible, and God's purpose and intent in introducing grace was simply to remove the one factor that condemned us but left us as we are, then heaven will be filled with sinners. No different from hell.
Another point. The removal of the condemnation that inhered to the sinner is not found in any removal of law. Our condemnation was not due to the law saying "thou shalt not covet". It was due because we did'nt believe God's promise that we shall not covet. So we coveted. We sinned. Not the law's fault ATP, our fault. Removing the law does not and could not take away or remove the fact that we coveted...law or no law.
The Bible however ATP says that grace has far greater impact on the human nature than just removing condemnation. That removal of condemnation came not from removal of law, but from a redemptive price paid on our behalf through Christ. And the result of that is a changed life. A new life. A new beginning. We are born again. And it is the new man , created, sanctified, and conformed to the image of Jesus, that now, through faith and by grace, has the power to keep the law.
Romans 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The gospel without the power to obey is only half the gospel.

Brakelite,

Eph 2 says that by grace we are saved through faith (not of works). Romans 3 says in verse 20 and in 28 that we are justified by faith without the deeds of the law and that no flesh shall be justified by the law.

Romans 8 is one of my favorite chapters. If you continue on from the point you stopped at you will see it say that the carnal mind (man) is at emity with God, it is not subject to the law of God and cannot be subject to the law if God. It then says they that are in the flesh cannot please God (as a result of the emity).

Chapter 7 touches more in this as it describes the spuritual vs tge carnal man.

We all know the law is good, just and perfect, but its not going to help us in terms of salvation, and God is no longer even requiring it.

If anyone wants to try to keep the law, thats fine. It will certainly help life on earth. But the minute you try to think its helping you gain favor with God or is going to help salvation (or not keeping it hurts salvation) you are no longer under grace.

So you do not keep the law of God, so it's okay for you to use the name of God in vain? To worship statues? it's okay for you to kill? to steal? etc etc...hmm interesting religion you got there...who taught you that? You should ask for your money back!
James said "faith without works is dead" and Paul said "it is doers of the law that are justified, not hearers" and in Romans as well he said "do we make void the law through faith? God forbid. We establish the law"...and in Revelation 22...14 and 15...."Bessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city" For outside are dogs, socerers, whoremongers, murderers, idolators and whosoever maketh and loveth a lie"...where do you want to be?

Are you Jewish? Because when Paul said what he did in Romans 2 he was talking about Jews who didn't believe in grace through faith. These jews were sldo hypicrits who accused others of breaking the law when they weren't keeping it themselves. Is thatyou?

Did you read all of romans3? It says we are justified by faith without the deeds of the law. So when he says we establish the law he's saying we do so by faith.

You sure to accuse alit heretoeternity! Who shall any charge to God's elect? It is god that justifieth! Who us he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather that is risen who also maketh intersession for us!