Hi Unorthodox Christian (UC):This Trinity topic is one that many people believe they have right, when in truth Denominationalism has sold the world a counterfeit that confuses God and The Word by mixing together Their identities. Please allow me to point out a few differences in our views on your Trinity topic:
UC >> Many People uses Man made Creeds and dogmas to prove the deity of our Lord, God.
Jesus Christ is the “Son of God” (John 1:34) and “God” raised Him from the dead. Romans 10:9. Many people do not know the difference between Jesus Christ the “Son of God” (Revelation 2:18) and “His God and Father” (Revelation 1:6) “The Almighty” (Revelation 1:8) who sent His Only Begotten Son into the world to save sinners (1 Timothy 1:15-16). Scripture says,
“For there is one God, and one Mediator also between God AND men, the man Christ Jesus . . .”. 1 Timothy 2:5.
The equation looks something like this with > meaning “greater than.”God > Christ Jesus > Men.Since Christ Jesus is the “one Mediator” between God and men, then obviously you have no license to move the “Son of God” into the “one God” position. Just how many “God’s” are you teaching from Scripture? There is only “One True God” and He is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Period!
"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the Only True God [“His God and Father” = Revelation 1:6], and Jesus Christ [“Son of God”] whom You have sent.” John 17:3.
Jesus Christ is addressing the “Only True God” and speaking of Himself in the ‘third person’ as “Jesus Christ whom You (God) have sent,” so why do many people make every attempt to pass God’s Deity around to others like mashed potatoes at dinner?? MANY people saw Jesus Christ the Son of God, but how many have seen God? NONE!
Son of God >> "I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God." John 1:34.God >> “No one has seen God at any time; the Only Begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.” John 1:18.
Jesus Christ the “Son of God” is seen by the sons of men, but
“NO ONE has seen God at ANY TIME.”
UC >> Some say he is Three distinct personalities, The Father is no the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the father. Although Co-equal, one God, they work in three distinct personalities, thus we get the dogma of Trinity.
What ‘some say’ about God ‘and’ His Only Begotten Son has nothing to do with anything, because our Trinity Doctrine should be based upon God’s Living Word apart from the dogma of men. Right? Of course. You are confusing the ‘three witnesses’ of
‘The Word’ (Christ = F+S+HS = The Word = Matthew 28:19) with the ‘three witnesses’ of
“The Almighty” (God = God To Come + God Who Is + God Who Was = Revelation 1:8) who raised His Only Begotten Son from the dead on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:3-4). Both The Almighty ‘and’ The Word have exactly one spirit witness Prophet (God To Come, The Father) and exactly one water witness Priest (God Who Was, The Holy Spirit) and exactly one blood witness King (God Who Is, The Son) respectively and
“the three are into the One” (1 John 5:8) establishing the pattern for all the three witness mystery sets of Scripture (
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c266/Terral03/60a.jpg ,
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c266/Terral03/60b.jpg). God is “One” and The Word is “One,” but ‘both’ are interacting with men within this broken ‘triune’ universe (heavens, heaven and earth) ‘through’ Their three witnesses of spirit, water and blood.
God’s three witnesses appear in the Holy of Holies, beyond the Second Veil, on the left side of Figure 1 and atop Figure 2 joined into the “One” like your own spirit (spirit witness), soul (blood witness) and body (water witness) making up a triune ‘man.’ “Christ Jesus” is the “one Mediator BETWEEN God and men” comprised of the Father (spirit witness), Son (blood witness) and the Holy Spirit (water witness) having NOTHING to do with any ‘personalities’ at all. Attempting to remove “Christ Jesus” (F+S+HS) from the “one Mediator” position to place the “Son of God” into the “one God” position is commonly known to the sons of men as “IDOLATRY.”
UC >> I pulled these out my notes to explain to a Jehovah witness, who could care less what the Hebrew or Greek meant, my explanation was in Vain.
Your explanation confuses God (The Almighty) ‘and’ His Only Begotten Son (The Word) in English, so the Hebrew and Greek really have nothing to do with anything.
UC >> So before I start, if there was such a Trinity. The Holy Spirit impregnates Mariam (Mary), therefore making the Holy Spirit the Father. Well my notes explain it all, but not in it's entirety.
The Holy Spirit what??? No sir. Scripture says,
“The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit [water witness = Helper = John 16:7] will come upon you, and the power of the Most High [spirit witness = The Father] will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God [blood witness = The Son].” Luke 1:35.
Scripture confirms that the Son of God was conceived of the HOLY SPIRIT:
“Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly. But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.” Matthew 1:18-20.
God borrowed NOTHING from Joseph or Mary for the “Holy Child” process where the Father (spirit witness) overshadowed the Holy Spirit (water witness) within the womb of the woman, which explains how the “Son of God” knew “NO SIN” (2 Corinthians 5:21). If God used one particle of DNA from Mary for this Holy Operation, between the Father and the Holy Spirit, then Mary’s sin from Adam would be passed to our Lord Jesus Christ and He would be in as much need of “A Savior” as every other man. Jesus Christ disqualifies Himself from even being a man born of woman, saying,
"Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist!” Matthew 11:11.
If Jesus Christ was born of women (NOT), then He just taught that John the Baptist is greater than He!
UC >> . . . in Hebrew Jesus CHrist name is YahShua HaMashiach, or Yeshua HaMashiach. Do you know what Y'shua means?
Since my Bible is written in English, then Jesus Christ’s name is Jesus Christ. Period. Since your New Testament is written in Greek, then any Hebrew translations of Jesus Christ’s name is irrelevant to this Trinity debate.
UC >> Yahweh's Salvation, Yahweh is Salvation, Yahweh is my salvation. So in essense, when we use the name or worship the Name of Yeshua HaMashiach, his son, we worship Yahweh.
No sir. We worship GOD (The Almighty) ‘through’ His Only Begotten Son (Christ = The Word = F+S+HS) the “one Mediator between God and men.” Period!
UC >> John 1:1, John 1:14, in conjunction with 1st John 5:7 clearly states, Jesus Christ is the Word of Elohim, YaHWeH, and the Father, Son, and Ruach HaKodesh (Holy SPirit) are one.
The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the three witnesses of “The Word” our Lord Jesus Christ the “Son of God.”There is no such thing as any “Word of Elohim” in your Bible, because the NT is definitely written IN GREEK from left to right AND the OT is written IN HEBREW from right to left. Your mishmash of Hebrew/Greek “YEEHAW,” Ruach HaKodesh gymnastics above is also very confusing and irrelevant to this Trinity Debate; unless your objective is to muddy the water with man-made dogma. You are assuming the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the three witnesses of “The Almighty” (Revelation 1:8), when in fact they are the three witnesses of “The Word” and UC does not appear to know the difference . . .
UC >> In John 20:28 Jesus appears to Thomas after the resurrection, and when Thomas Sees this is Y'shua (Yahweh's Salvation) risen, he SAYS, "MY LORD AND MY GOD."
So what? Thomas is giving glory TO GOD for raising His Only Begotten Son from the dead! The Gospel writer uses this evidence to prove beyond all doubt that Jesus Christ is the “SON OF GOD.”
“Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.” John 20:30-31.
Do you know the ‘name’ of the “Son of God” sent into the world by “His God and Father” to save sinners? Would the name of the Son of God be our Lord Jesus Christ or something else??? Jesus Christ is still the Lord AND God still raised Him from the dead (Romans 10:9) on the third day. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.
UC >> Remember Matthew 28:19 where Jesus commanded his disciples to baptize in the Name of THE FATHER, AND OF THE SON, AND OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. Now notice, IN THE NAME IS SINGULAR, and let us move forward to Acts 2:38, ten days after Jesus Christ commanded them to baptize IN THE NAME, Peter baptizes in the Name of Jesus Christ.
UC is going to transform the “Son of God” (The Word) into “His God and Father” (The Almighty) over a Greek term being singular? :0) Jesus Christ just gave His disciples the three witnesses of THE WORD that testify about the “Son of God” sent into the world to save sinners BY GOD. Peter baptizes in the name of the Father (John’s Baptism = Acts 8:12 , Acts 19:1-4) AND in the name of the Son (our Lord Jesus Christ = Acts 8:16 , Acts 19:5) AND lays hands on those obeying the
“Gospel of the Kingdom,” so they can receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:17 , Acts 19:6). The “Gospel of the Kingdom” includes three distinct and separate ‘baptisms’ showing “The Way” (Acts 9:2 , Acts 19:9 , Acts 22:4 , etc.) into the Court (The Father = John’s Baptism) through the Holy Place (The Son) and the Holy of Holies (The Holy Spirit). These three baptisms are for the members of the Prophetic Kingdom
“Bride” (John 3:29) where Peter, John and James are the
“sons of the bridal chamber” (Mark 2:19). However, NONE of these baptisms have anything to do with the members of the
“Body of Christ” (Ephesians 4:12), because we have just
“one baptism” (Ephesians 4:5) where the Holy Spirit baptizes us (1 Corinthians 12:13) directly into Christ (Galatians 3:27) upon hearing and believing the Gospel.
UC >> Either the bible is contradicting Christ here, or it's telling us Peter did what Jesus Christ told him. Remember YAHWEH is the name of the Tetragrammaton, of the Father, Sonship, and Holy Ghost.
There are no contradictions in God’s Living Word, but men create them by the introduction of their homemade church dogma. You are confusing the three witnesses of “The Word” with the three witnesses of “The Almighty” without knowing the difference. If you are going to write about “The Lord” (Y@hovah = #3068 =
http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon...068&Version=kjv) in English, then think about typing out “The Lord” in English to avoid this confusion. Jesus Christ is the “Lord God” of the Old Testament who formed Adam from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2, but “God” (‘Elohiym #430) of Genesis 1 is
“His God and Father” (Revelation 1:6)
“The Almighty” (Revelation 1:8).
UC >> But also remember Y'SHUA is YAHWEH's Salvation, which is Why Peter received a revelation that you baptize in the Lord Jesus Christ' Name. Adonai Y'shua HaMashiach.
Lord-Have-Mercy . . . Peter baptized in the name of the Father with the forgiveness of sins via John’s Baptism IN WATER, that allowed the Kingdom Disciple to pass from the Court of the Temple into the “Holy Place” between the two veils. Peter then baptized in the name of the Son (Jesus Christ) to allow passage from the Holy Place into the Holy of Holies where the ‘third’ and final baptism of the Holy Spirit could take place by the laying of hands. Peter was baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (The Word), by carrying out the ‘three baptism’ process part of the
“Gospel of the Kingdom” (Matthew 4:23 , Matthew 9:35 , Acts 8:12) that has not saved one soul for almost 2000 years.
UC >> The is only One Lord, One True King, and One True God, The Son is one with the Father, not a unity of three, not a trinity of three distinct personalities but one substance, three offices or manifestations.
The “One Lord” (Jesus Christ) is presented in Ephesians 4:5, but His God and Father is listed in the following verse:
“There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord [Jesus Christ = Romans 10:9], one faith, one baptism, one God and Father [“His God and Father” = Revelation 1:6] of all who is over all and through all and in all.” Ephesians 4:4-6.
Since your teaching says the “Son of God = His God and Father,” then would you like to destroy God ‘or’ His Only Begotten Son to transform them into the same “one God?” Jesus Christ is still the “Son of God” and is at the “right hand of God” making intercession for the saints as we speak.
“Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.” Romans 8:33-34.“Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.” Colossians 3:1-3.
Anyone transforming the “Son of God” into the “one God” must explain the identity of the “one Mediator” standing between his ‘god’ and men. You cannot place Jesus Christ into the “one God” position (1 Timothy 2:5) AND have Him stand ‘between God and men’ as the “one Mediator” at the very same time! We are looking at a ‘shell game’ where men play games with the true identity of God ‘and’ His Only Begotten Son, because some people are obviously confused and do not know the difference.
UC >> Tell me why the disciples fell and worshipped Jesus when they saw him raised from the dead?
Cornelius fell down and worshipped Peter in Acts 10:25, but that does not make him GOD either.
UC >> Why do you think Jesus told the Sanhedrine in the Gospel of John, "Before Abraham, I AM." I AM! I AM! He was saying he was YHWH. They wanted to kill him because he said he was YHWH.
Jesus Christ is the “Lord God” of the Old Testament that began His ‘Sabbath day’ (seventh day) consecration work in Genesis 2:1-7, but that does NOT make Him “God” of Genesis 1 representing “His God and Father” who raised Him from the dead. God and The Word are “ONE” and the same thing in God’s Infinite Realm, but God called on The Word to incarnate inside this Creation as our Lord Jesus Christ. That is the reason The Word is “with God” in John 1:2 . . .
UC >> Do you understand the baptism of the Holy Ghost. I'm not good at bible reference, but I do know my scripture. Remember Jesus said I will not leave you comfortless, but I shall send you the Comforter, HIS SPIRIT, RUACH HAKODESH.
Yes. I understand the baptisms of Scripture perhaps better than anyone here, but that has nothing to do with playing shell games over God’s identity (The Almighty) or that of His Only Begotten Son (The Word).
RC >> The Holy Spirit is called the Comforter many many times in the New Testament. No one knew what the Baptism of the Holy Ghost was because Jesus had not risen. He could not pour out his Spirit until he ascended to the Right hand of Jehovah.
Please forgive, but John the Baptist was baptized with the Holy Spirit while still in his mother’s womb (Luke 1:15). David had the Holy Spirit from the Temple way back in the Old Testament:
“Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.” Psalms 51:11.
Elizabeth (Luke 1:41) and Zacharias (Luke 1:67) are “filled with the Holy Spirit” some thirty years before John the Baptist or Christ appeared to anyone. The phenomena you are attempting to describe is a ‘three step’ process of God offering the “Gospel of the Kingdom” to Israel ONLY through John the Baptist (spirit witness), Jesus Christ (blood witness) and the Holy Spirit (water witness) testifying for “The Word” made flesh (John 1:14).
The Prophets and the Law prophesied until John (Matthew 11:13), because John the Baptist is the “priest” appearing from behind the Second Veil of the Holy of Holies (OT) as the “spirit witness” (from God = John 1:6) preparing “The Way” for Christ to THEN come in “water and in blood” (1 John 5:6). John the Baptist carried the Holy Spirit baton from the Temple (through his father Zacharias = Luke 1:5-9 = chosen by lot), until Christ removed Him at His Baptism (Matthew 3:15-16) in the Jordan River. That marked the precise moment when John the Baptist (earthly messiah) began to decrease, so our Lord Jesus Christ (Heavenly Messiah) could ‘increase’ (John 3:30), as depicted by the lines in the diagram above. Christ took the Holy Spirit to increase over the 3-year period of His earthly ministry, until He was also murdered by the Jews (Matthew 17:12) and the “Helper” (John 16:7) was THEN passed to the Kingdom Disciples on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4). Jesus Christ sent the Twelve to Israel ONLY (Matthew 10:5-7) in the same way that Peter is preaching to the “men of Judea” (Acts 2:14), the “men of Israel” (Acts 2:22) and “all the house of Israel” (Acts 2:36) in Jerusalem on this feast day, when all Jews were avoiding contact with Gentiles to remain clean for the Holy Day. God’s offering of the “Gospel of the Kingdom” to Israel ONLY decreased (see diagram again) from Steven’s stoning (Acts 6-7), until the Holy Spirit baton was passed to the Apostle Paul (Acts 13:1-2) and Peter’s Kingdom Dispensation “Bride” Church was ‘cut off’ with Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD. This “Dispensation of God’s Grace” (Ephesians 3:2) superseded the now ‘cut off’ (Revelation 20:4) ‘early rains’ (James 5:7) Kingdom Bride, because God is ‘first’ (Acts 15:14) taking from among the Gentiles a people (Body of Christ) for His name. Elijah will appear ‘again’ preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom (Matthew 24:14 = to the end of the age) to restore all things (Matthew 17:10-11) at our Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) to START the 1000 Years Day of the Lord, when the Holy Spirit baton will be passed once again back to Elijah (John the Baptist) and the “late rains” (James 5:7) Kingdom Bride can be prepared over that 1000 Year Period.
UC >> When he fulfilled the ascension, on the day of Pentocost, the Spirit of God himself came down upon the disciples and they were filled with the Holy Spirit. Do you know who's spirit that WAS LORD JESUS CHRIST.
No sir. Jesus Christ ascended on the fortieth day (Acts 1:9-11), but the Holy Spirit fell on the fiftieth day (Pentecost) leaving a 10 day gap between His ascension and the Helper falling upon His Disciples. If you understand the three witnesses of The Word (Father = spirit witness, Son = blood witness and Holy Spirit = water witness), then you realize The Father is the ‘spirit’ of Christ Jesus, the Son is the ‘soul’ of Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit is the ‘body’ of Christ Jesus and those three are into the One (1 John 5:8). Therefore, the Holy Spirit falling upon the Kingdom Bride is the ‘body’ of Christ Jesus making the third and final offering of the “Gospel of the Kingdom” to Israel ONLY beginning at Jerusalem.
UC >> Why do you think John the Baptist said, I baptize you with water, but he baptizes you with Fire With the Holy Ghost. Because the Holy Ghost is the Spirit of Christ Jesus.
Asking so many questions in your Opening Post leads your readers astray by requiring so very many answers. John the Baptist offered the Gospel of the Kingdom FIRST for the Father by baptizing in water, so the Son of God could come behind and offer the Holy Spirit should Israel ACCEPT HIM. Israel rejected John the Baptist and Christ and would eventually murder and exile all the disciples in
“Strike 1, strike 2 and strike 3 you are out!” fashion.
UC Quotes >> John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever.notice the Bold my brother? ANOTHER comforter. Jesus Christ is the Comforter in Flesh, BUT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE COMFORTER IN SPIRIT!
So what? The Father, Son and Holy Spirit remain the three witnesses of THE WORD testifying about Jesus Christ the “Son OF GOD” seen by most everyone walking around in the earth some 2000 years ago. John the Baptist still saw the Holy Spirit descending down from heaven (John 1:32) and “No one has seen GOD at any time.” John 1:18. Therefore, splitting hairs about whether the Holy Spirit is the ‘water witness’ or ‘spirit witness’ (the Father) of “The Word” has nothing to do with transforming the Son of God into His Own God and Father.
UC >> Now Look at Acts 1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghose had given commandments unto the apostles whom he Chosen. Jesus Chose his Disciples through the Holy Spirit, See how interchangable God is?
So many questions and so few answers . . . Christ selecting disciples has nothing whatsoever to do with the ‘identity’ of His God and Father OR Himself as the “Only Begotten Son OF GOD” (John 3:18). You appear to be taking a very long road around this Trinity topic using a series of confusing Hebraisms and leading questions requiring more of an explanation than Unorthodox Christian is able to provide to anyone. Thank you very much for starting this thread and for the opportunity to explain the differences between Jesus Christ the “Son of God” AND “His God and Father” the “One God” who raised Him from the dead.In Christ Jesus the Son of God,Terral