Belief Systems or JESUS?

Axehead · Jun 19, 2015

Christianity appeals to all nations, races and creeds, but you have made it so ecclesiastical that it appeals to nobody. -Rabindranath Tagore

The story is told that when Ghatama Buddha was dying ... some of his disciples asked how they could best remember him. He told them not to bother; that it was his teaching, not his person, that mattered. Such is the basis of religion — ideological, philosophical, educative belief-systems. Such is not the case with Jesus Christ and Christianity. Everything centers in Him. Everything is inherent in Jesus, His Person and His continuing activity. Everything functions only by the dynamic of the risen and living Lord Jesus Christ. - James A. Fowler

People are battling each other with their belief systems as a weapon. Most Christianity that one sees today is dedication to a system of rules or of thought. But Christianity, in the Early Church was a dedication to a Person.

Christians should be loyal to a Person, not a doctrine and love all men as Jesus and the Apostles did. We are not called to brawl in debates or at worst defend Christ with the spilling of blood and terrorism. How very confused is the one that believes Jesus Christ needs to be defended.

The New Testament Church did not go around saying, "We have a brand new religion that is better than anything that ever was. We have teachings and doctrine that can win any debate. We have morality and ethics that are far superior than anything known." No, they went forth preaching the Good News that Jesus Christ is risen. He is ALIVE!! And He will forgive you of your sins and change your heart, filling you with His holy Spirit to love all men as He did.

Mark_11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

1Jn_4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

pom2014 · Jun 19, 2015

Axehead said:
Christianity appeals to all nations, races and creeds, but you have made it so ecclesiastical that it appeals to nobody. -Rabindranath Tagore

The story is told that when Ghatama Buddha was dying ... some of his disciples asked how they could best remember him. He told them not to bother; that it was his teaching, not his person, that mattered. Such is the basis of religion — ideological, philosophical, educative belief-systems. Such is not the case with Jesus Christ and Christianity. Everything centers in Him. Everything is inherent in Jesus, His Person and His continuing activity. Everything functions only by the dynamic of the risen and living Lord Jesus Christ. - James A. Fowler

People are battling each other with their belief systems as a weapon. Most Christianity that one sees today is dedication to a system of rules or of thought. But Christianity, in the Early Church was a dedication to a Person.

Christians should be loyal to a Person, not a doctrine and love all men as Jesus and the Apostles did. We are not called to brawl in debates or at worst defend Christ with the spilling of blood and terrorism. How very confused is the one that believes Jesus Christ needs to be defended.

The New Testament Church did not go around saying, "We have a brand new religion that is better than anything that ever was. We have teachings and doctrine that can win any debate. We have morality and ethics that are far superior than anything known." No, they went forth preaching the Good News that Jesus Christ is risen. He is ALIVE!! And He will forgive you of your sins and change your heart, filling you with His holy Spirit to love all men as He did.

Mark_11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

1Jn_4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

Ah but the early Christians did codify everything into a system after the death of the apostles.

Returning it to the Levitical order of priests.

newlife · Jun 19, 2015

pom2014 said:
Ah but the early Christians did codify everything into a system after the death of the apostles.

Returning it to the Levitical order of priests.

Pom, what exactly do you believe? Can you tell me?

Graceismine · Jun 20, 2015

They invented Seeker Friendly, Programmatic, Entertainment, Pap preaching and I said to myself, "enough is enough". Seeking counsel of the Lord and other Christians , I shook the dust off my feet four months ago. It is not easy because it is socially stigmatising in Christian circles. The thinking being that the leaver has apostasised, when really the leaver is leaving the apostasy which we call "church".

pom2014 · Jun 21, 2015

newlife said:
Pom, what exactly do you believe? Can you tell me?

I believe in what The King says, not what man and his traditions say.

The churches turned away from The King because they would have to give up their old wine. They do not want to do that.

And I agree with Graceismine, the churches are heretical and should be left.

newlife · Jun 21, 2015

pom2014 said:
I believe in what The King says, not what man and his traditions say.

The churches turned away from The King because they would have to give up their old wine. They do not want to do that.

And I agree with Graceismine, the churches are heretical and should be left.

What then are the essential truths that are being perverted?

Graceismine · Jun 21, 2015

Wrangling over doctrine is hurtful to the message of the gospel. It is a poor witness and some of us are guilty of it. There is a fine line however because Jesus and Paul came down hard on the false teachers in our midst.

Essential truths being perverted is simply that the bible is a myth.

pom2014 · Jun 22, 2015

newlife said:
What then are the essential truths that are being perverted?

The Two Great Commandments were first to be disposed of.
The Church was set on the throne and The King was set before it.
The rightful order of priests was dismissed, so the good news was not able to be correctly spread.
The yoking of unrighteousness with righteousness was returned to.

All of it returns the church to the same old ways as the Order of Levi.

They abandoned The King, save only in name. They are rebels and wolvesheads.

Born_Again · Jun 26, 2015

Okay, let me throw this out there, purely out of my own morbid curiosity. What is the correct doctrine? That's what this is all bout, isn't it? I am strictly playing devils advocate for the purpose of getting everyone to think.

Axehead · Jun 27, 2015

Don't try to read this in a rush. Take your time, get a cup of your favorite beverage and relax and focus.

The truth is somewhere in the middle because Calvinism/Augustinianism is one extreme and Pelagianism and Arminianism is the other extreme. Calvinism believes if you are not Calvinist then you must be Arminianist. There is nothing else. I can quote Calvinists, if you like. But, those are belief systems created by men as they extracted from the Bible, extreme interpretations. Below, we will just see what the Bible says.
This little diagram just deals with Salvation. We can talk about the extremes regarding God, Sanctification, Righteousness, our Humanity, Adoption, Regeneration, Atonement, etc., etc., etc., later on.

One Extreme-------------------------->
Pelagianism states that our willing choice is the determining factor in the participation of our salvation. Pelagianism is seen as extremely humanistic and Arminianism is not as extreme in its humanistic factors (meaning what we do) it does not totally effect our salvation. Evangelicalism also tends to focus on our own actions and performance.

<------------------------Other Extreme
Augustinianism and Calvinism is pretty much the reduction of our being in that fallen humanity is deemed depraved (defective) to the point that they are incapable of responding to the Lord's offer of grace. The meaning of grace is misunderstood as divine determinism. This means that God will sovereignly elect/select some for salvation and others for perdition.

<----------------------------------------------------------Balance---------------------------------------------------------------->

There is the Divine initiative and then.................................... there is Man's response.
GRACE .................................................................................................... FAITH
Eph 2:5,8 "for by grace you have been saved..." -------------- Eph 2:8 "...saved through faith"

God divinely and dynamically extends His grace -------------- Faith is our response to the Divine activity of God through the to us via His Son, Jesus Christ (Jn 1:17) and by Holy Spirit, not only initially but continually, throughout the the Holy Spirit Christian life. Faith puts us in a position of receiving. Faith enables us to be receptive to the Holy Spirit.
"As many as received Him.." Jn 1:12
Acts 15:11 "through the grace of the Lord Jesus -------------- “believe on the Lord Jesus and thou shalt be saved” Act 16:31
Christ we shall be saved,"
Titus 2:11 - “the grace of God has appeared --------------------- “salvation through faith in Christ” II Tim. 3:15
bringing salvation to all men.”
II Tim. 1:9 - “saved us according to His own ------------------ “chosen for salvation...through faith in the truth” II Th 2:13
purpose and grace..”
I Pet. 1:10 - “this salvation, the prophets --------------------- “outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls” 1 Pet 1:9
prophesied of the grace to come

The "Finished work" of Jesus Christ which makes salvation available to ALL men is proven a universal objective by the Word of God. No one is elected to perdition.

The Roman Catholic Church theology is geared more towards humanistic contribution of works to procure the favor of God and ritualistic or ceremonial salvation. Being a member of the Church through baptism brings one into Christ and participating in the Sacraments.

Roman Catholic theology has traditionally taught the infused grace of God, whereby grace is infused in the soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it (2023). "by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ" (1997). They don't really emphasize the subjective spiritual reality of Christ in individual Christians, but rather the corporate reality of Christ's work in the ecclesiastical community of the Roman Church. Those in the church of Rome are regarded to be "in Christ," and there is no salvation apart from the holy Roman Church. Christ is in the Roman Catholic Church collectively, for they are His body, hence the Church Catholic. Christ expresses Himself as the holy Roman Church. This is why there is diminished emphasis on the personal and subjective activity of Christ in a Roman Catholic individual.

Jn 3:16 - For God so loved the world (ALL are Loved)
Eph 1:7 - In whom we have redemption (ALL are Redeemed)
Jn 1:29 - Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (ALL are Forgiven)
Rom 5:18,19 - "...so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." (ALL are made righteous)
Rom 5:10,11 - "...we were reconciled to God..." - (ALL have been reconciled)
Rom 5:18 - "...upon all men unto justification of life." (ALL have been given life)
Titus 2:11 - "...grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men" (ALL are saved)
Eph 1:3 - "who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ" (ALL are Blessed)
Jn 12:32 - "...will draw all men unto me." (ALL men drawn to Christ)

All the bulleted scriptures are objective, eternal realities whether a person believes or does not believe.

The one extreme for the above verses would be Universalism. Everyone is predestined to spend eternity in heaven and this is determined solely by God and not dependent on any human response. Towards this same extreme is Determinist theology that indicates ALL humanity (smaller part) is included in the life and ministry of Jesus' humanity which was of a vicarious nature in that all human beings will be incorporated into Him forever and ever.

Particularism in the processes of salvation is the mark of Calvinism. Particularism deals not generally with mankind at large, but particularly with the individuals who are actually saved. If you deny Particularism you are denying the supernaturalism of salvation, that is, Christianity itself. It is logically the total rejection of Christianity. "ALL qualified", actually means only God's predestined elect. Salvation is not an option for the non-elect.

THE BALANCE
1. Some reject God's grace and do not receive the living Lord Jesus.
2. Human beings have freedom of choice, and the freedom of choice that we are born with has no merit in and of itself regarding automatic eternal blessings.
3. Faith is never a work in the New Testament and neither is it a gift of God. "A measure of faith", has been given to all men.
Rom_12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Faith is a response on our part to receive what God is giving us. Faith receives God's divine activity.

4. Either-or - Some will receive Jesus, and some will reject Jesus.

Calvinism pretty much denys that an individual is able to respond in faith to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Evangelicals, on the other hand have a different view of salvation. An individual "gets saved" by their personal choice to receive Jesus, but in saying this to them, they are subtly communicating that men are contributing to their salvation by their own faith-action of assent to facts, raising your hand, walking the aisle and getting your "ticket punched". It could also be reciting a creed, getting baptized, joining a religious organization, promising to keep the Church's rules, going to catechism, etc., etc. None of these things produce regeneration and if you are not regenerated (converted) you are not saved according to the Bible.

Acts 16:30,31 - “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.”
Eph. 2:8,9 - “For by grace you have been saved through faith.”
Rom. 10:8-10 - “...confess with mouth, believe in heart, you will be saved.”
I Cor. 1:21 - “God was well- pleased to save those who believe”
Rom. 5:10 - “...saved by His life”

Regeneration - or conversion is a defining moment in one's life. It is radical!! Not a ceremony or ritual. One is going from spiritual death to spiritual life. This is not done by rituals, reciting of creeds, church membership classes, baptism, et al.

Matt. 18:3 - “Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.”
Jn. 3:3,7 - “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
I Pt. 1:3 - “...begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,"
Acts 26:18 - “To open their eyes, and to turn them (convert) from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God,"Titus 3:5 - “...saved us by the washing of regeneration...”

The result of conversion is Union with Christ.
II Pt. 1:4 - “partakers of the divine nature”
I Cor. 6:17 - “he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.”
Heb. 3:14 - “partakers of Christ”
Heb. 6:4 - “partakers of the Holy Spirit”

Extremes of Union with Christ are mysticism, pantheism, panentheism, monistic unification of Christ and the Christian to the point where they become one and there is no distinction between them. Let's talk about Union with Christ, later.

I have had to readjust my thinking quite a bit through the years to keep from falling off into the ditch of "isms" rather than taking into account the "full counsel of God". You can see that you really do not need any "isms", and the Word of God and the Spirit of God seem to do just fine.

You don't have to subscribe to Arminianism, Calvinism, Methodism, Lutheranism, Catholicism, etc, etc. You just need to be Christocentric, because that is what the Word of God is.

From Genesis to Revelation, it is the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

mjrhealth · Jun 27, 2015

Wel since we now have, God, Jesus and teh Holy Spirit avaliable to anyone who asks, why would you need anything else.

Nice posts Axehead, and after escaping from Catholism I quiet agree.

In all His Love

Barrd · Oct 5, 2015

It seems to me that Christians have spent the last 2000 years complicating what the Apostles died to simplify.
Look, the Bible must be simple enough to be understood by simple people...like fishermen, or carpenters, or tent makers, or house wives.
All of these "isms" and concerns about "proper exegesis" or "hermeneutics" etc. would have been completely foreign to Peter, or John, or James, or any of the rest of them.
The message of the gospel is so simple, even a child can understand it. In fact, it may be that only someone who is child at heart can understand it...

StanJ · Oct 5, 2015

The Barrd said:
It seems to me that Christians have spent the last 2000 years complicating what the Apostles died to simplify.
Look, the Bible must be simple enough to be understood by simple people...like fishermen, or carpenters, or tent makers, or house wives.
All of these "isms" and concerns about "proper exegesis" or "hermeneutics" etc. would have been completely foreign to Peter, or John, or James, or any of the rest of them.
The message of the gospel is so simple, even a child can understand it. In fact, it may be that only someone who is child at heart can understand it...

I totally agree, but the problem is others who want to force their dogma into the scriptures need to learn HOW to read it RIGHTLY.
It's not the everyday believer that is problematic, it is the spirit of false teaching that requires we be diligent in knowing God's word.
IMO, sites like this don't attract the simple believer, but do attract many who want to propagate their false dogmas. It's not new, because Paul and Peter warned about it from the beginning and Jesus dealt with false teachings in His earthly ministry. His favorite reply was "IT IS WRITTEN". We need to do the same.

Barrd · Oct 5, 2015

StanJ said:
I totally agree, but the problem is others who want to force their dogma into the scriptures need to learn HOW to read it RIGHTLY.
It's not the everyday believer that is problematic, it is the spirit of false teaching that requires we be diligent in knowing God's word.
IMO, sites like this don't attract the simple believer, but do attract many who want to propagate their false dogmas. It's not new, because Paul and Peter warned about it from the beginning and Jesus dealt with false teachings in His earthly ministry. His favorite reply was "IT IS WRITTEN". We need to do the same.

I dunno. I thought it would be good to join a site where I might talk with like-minded people about my faith...and maybe learn a little bit about how other people view Christianity.
I had no idea that I would wind up embroiled in debates...call me naive, but I honestly did not see that coming.

Now, I have nothing at all against scholarship. I worked my cute little....erm... I worked hard to get myself a degree so that I could land a decent job...my husband was killed in a car wreck, leaving no insurance...and with seven hungry mouths to feed. The baby wasn't out of her diapers yet.
It was a very difficult few years...but I did get that education, and I did managed to snag a pretty good position as a legal assistant. So, no...I am not anti-education.

On the other hand, Saul (we know him as Paul) had the best education of his time. He was "brought up at the feet of Gamaliel"...considered to be one of the finest Rabbis of the time.
But that education was worthless to him when it came to recognizing his Messiah and Lord. In spite of that training that his parents must have laid out some major coins for, he still consented to the stoning of Stephen....and he still heavily persecuted the early church, being responsible for many deaths.
It wasn't until Jesus knocked him off of his high horse and blinded him, that Saul was able to see the truth...

LLMJ Blog · Oct 5, 2015

My point of view that I wrote about is that we need to make sure that we check everything against the WORD of GOD. I am not saying any denomination is wrong, that is not what I mean by religion. I am talking about the rules that Churches make even though it has nothing to do with what GOD told us. We always have to make sure we are following HIS laws, and nobody else's that are made for the sake of fleshly opinions.

Barrd · Oct 5, 2015

LLMJ Blog said:
My point of view that I wrote about is that we need to make sure that we check everything against the WORD of GOD. I am not saying any denomination is wrong, that is not what I mean by religion. I am talking about the rules that Churches make even though it has nothing to do with what GOD told us. We always have to make sure we are following HIS laws, and nobody else's that are made for the sake of fleshly opinions.

Thats kind of what Stan and I are talking about.
The thing is, it is possible to 'prove' almost anything from the Bible...IF you take your 'proof' texts out of the context of the entire Book, put your own spin on them...and rely heavily on your audience not to read or study for themselves.

You'd be amazed to find how many people could not tell you where to find The Sermon on The Mount, or have any idea what Jesus was talking about, or how many have no idea who Barabbas was. We've got one character here who insists that we don't even need the Bible.

Welcome to Chaos, my girl...you are a breath of fresh air around here...and ray of sunshine.
If you ever need help, or just someone to talk to, give me a yell...

LLMJ Blog · Oct 5, 2015

Definitely will thank you!

Yes we need the BIBLE, and we need to make sure that we check everything against the WORD, even things the Pastors say. There are there to point you to the WORD. Not become and IDOL.

StanJ · Oct 6, 2015

The Barrd said:
:lol:

I dunno. I thought it would be good to join a site where I might talk with like-minded people about my faith...and maybe learn a little bit about how other people view Christianity.
I had no idea that I would wind up embroiled in debates...call me naive, but I honestly did not see that coming.

Now, I have nothing at all against scholarship. I worked my cute little....erm... I worked hard to get myself a degree so that I could land a decent job...my husband was killed in a car wreck, leaving no insurance...and with seven hungry mouths to feed. The baby wasn't out of her diapers yet.
It was a very difficult few years...but I did get that education, and I did managed to snag a pretty good position as a legal assistant. So, no...I am not anti-education.

On the other hand, Saul (we know him as Paul) had the best education of his time. He was "brought up at the feet of Gamaliel"...considered to be one of the finest Rabbis of the time.
But that education was worthless to him when it came to recognizing his Messiah and Lord. In spite of that training that his parents must have laid out some major coins for, he still consented to the stoning of Stephen....and he still heavily persecuted the early church, being responsible for many deaths.
It wasn't until Jesus knocked him off of his high horse and blinded him, that Saul was able to see the truth...

I think if Jesus knocked me off my horse and asked why I was persecuting Him, I would freak. Especially because I don't own a horse! :lol:

Barrd · Oct 6, 2015

StanJ said:
I think if Jesus knocked me off my horse and asked why I was persecuting Him, I would freak. Especially because I don't own a horse! :lol:

brakelite · Oct 6, 2015

We join a fellowship because we know, or at least should know, that it is dangerous to attempt to remain in the truth without support and encouragement. So the question is...what fellowship do we join? The nearest to our gate, or the nearest to the Truth? The most popular, or the most Spirit-filled? The oldest, or the most alive? Most churches have formal declarations of faith...summaries of principle doctrines which they believe are the most accurate expressions of God's truth.
Do we use our man-made creeds as weapons against those who would disagree with us? Is our creed limiting the power and ability of the Holy Spirit to unveil new truth? Do we ostracize other believers, not because we may prove them wrong from the Bible, but because their beliefs are not in harmony with our creed?
One of the founding elders of my church (over 150 years ago) once said the following at a time when my young church was debating whether or not a formalized creed was acceptable. Those early church founders over a hundred years ago were much closer to an age when church creeds were used to persecute and even kill dissenters. ...."The first step to apostasy is to set up a creed, telling us what we shall believe. The second step is to make that creed a test of fellowship. The third is to try members by that creed. The fourth is to denounce as heretics those who do not believe that creed. And the fifth is to commence persecution against such."

What truths we may learn today would not perhaps have been present truth years ago, but it is God's message for this time. The reformatio was established by the Lord God to bring people out of spiritual darkness and superstition. The truths that the reformers discovered were not new, nor was their understanding of those truths complete. I am utterly convinced that the whole truth is still not completely revealed to God's people. The reformation continues to this day...we have no idea how privileged we are to have available to us these kinds of forums where we can discuss and debate Biblical truth, and also have at our fingertips vast pages of information and Bile translations that inform and teach. It is up to us to open our hearts to the Holy Spirit and be wholly willing to discard our traditions and teachings if the precious light from God's word is at variance with our cherished beliefs.
We must never allow ourselves to make all scripture meet our established opinions. We must not carry our creed to the Bible and read the Word in light of our former opinions.
We must not attempt to make scripture agree with our creed. By so doing we are exalting our creed to the status of the Bible, thus making the creed or even our opinion the norm for authority.
Even when our creed does agree with scripture, to use such as a guide for spiritual authority is giving it a status equal to the scriptures themselves.
We may have a means by which we summarize in a listed form whether formal or informal, those doctrines we hold to be true. These however, must never carry a quality of finality or infallibility, nor should they be accorded a binding authority upon the consciences of members in a way the Bible does. Statements of beliefs or historical creeds are not spectacles through which the word of God is to be read.
They must always remain only a reflection of the church's best understanding and expression of Biblical truth up to the present time. Revisions of such statements should always be seen as an option as the church is led by the Holy Spirit, where better language and understanding is found in which to express the teachings of the Bible.

Belief Systems or JESUS?

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

His Humble Servant

Lifelong student of God's Word.

His Humble Servant

LLMJ Blog

Guest

His Humble Servant

LLMJ Blog

Guest

Lifelong student of God's Word.

His Humble Servant

brakelite

Guest

Similar threads