No such thing as The Rpature

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numenian

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Read the Bible, without filters, fetters, or frills. It is abundantly clear. Silly arguments over pre-, mid-, or post-Tribulation take time away from the care for the least of these. And as all these arguments are totally species about the Rapture, those souls involved endure a heavy price in this ego game. Foolish yet seeming vital. Those involved seem incapable of self-criticism or self-reflection
.
 

Foreigner

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First off, it's 'Rapture' not 'Rpature.

Secondly, it's 'specious' not 'species.'

And lastly, your verbiage is uninviting of discussion, condescending, yet provides absolutely nothing to support your position. :huh:
 

numenian

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numenian said:
Read the Bible, without filters, fetters, or frills. It is abundantly clear. Silly arguments over pre-, mid-, or post-Tribulation take time away from the care for the least of these. And as all these arguments are totally species about the Rapture, those souls involved endure a heavy price in this ego game. Foolish yet seeming vital. Those involved seem incapable of self-criticism or self-reflection
.
I apologize for this thread; I did not write it. Although I do not see the Rapture as biblical, it was a friend that spent the night who wrote it. To me it is disputable matter and there is no need for hostility or disparaging comments. As drunk as he was, I do not see that as an excuse. Again, my deepest apologies for this tasteless post. I guess the lesson is to log off before I leave any site.
 

ATP

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Psalm 27:5 NIV For in the day of trouble he will keep me safe in his dwelling; he will hide me in the shelter of his sacred tent and set me high upon a rock.

Isa 26:20 NIV Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by.

Matt 24:40-41 NIV Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

John 14:1-4 NIV "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going."

Acts 1:10-11 NIV They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

1 Cor 15:50-54 NIV I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

1 Thess 4:14-17 NIV For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

1 Thess 5:10 NIV He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

Titus 2:13 NIV while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,
 

OzSpen

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numenian said:
Read the Bible, without filters, fetters, or frills. It is abundantly clear. Silly arguments over pre-, mid-, or post-Tribulation take time away from the care for the least of these. And as all these arguments are totally species about the Rapture, those souls involved endure a heavy price in this ego game. Foolish yet seeming vital. Those involved seem incapable of self-criticism or self-reflection
.
And your view is 'without filters'?? :wub:
 

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numenian said:
Read the Bible, without filters, fetters, or frills. It is abundantly clear. Silly arguments over pre-, mid-, or post-Tribulation take time away from the care for the least of these. And as all these arguments are totally species about the Rapture, those souls involved endure a heavy price in this ego game. Foolish yet seeming vital. Those involved seem incapable of self-criticism or self-reflection
.
The rapture heresy is littered with filters, fetters and frills. It is neither Biblical nor logical and those who support it do indeed rest their arguments on personal assault and assassination of character. They do so because that is the last resort of baseless opinion.

"I pray NOT that thou shouldest take them from the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one."
- Jesus as quoted in John 17:15

Which part of NOT does the reader NOT understand? I would wager money at this point that some rapturist fanatic will supply numerous quotes stating that Jesus didn't know what He was talking about.

The scripture reference is above. The historic and theological references follow. Study, real study, of the events and persons described here will reveal the truth. None of those who have swallowed the rapture ideology will accept it or follow through on their homework. They dare not for they have fallen into a dogmatic trap they believe to be true. It isn't. The rapture is nothing less than massive amounts of bovine excrement masquerading as gospel.

In the mid-19th century John Nelson Darby attempted to clear up a centuries old controversy about three definitions of the millennium and the second coming of Christ. Those controversies consisted of: a pre-millennial advent, a post-millennial advent and an a-millenial explanation that denied the physical return of Christ altogether. All of them considered the world wide acceptance of Christianity as a religion prior to or directly following the second coming. WWI pretty much determined the impossibility of the establishment of global Christianity to the dust bin of history, but that was nearly a century after Darby's work became popular.

In 1830 AD Darby published his work and thus cemented himself into history as the father of futurism and dispensationalism. The primary focus of his book and wildly popular lecture series was the division of history into segments or dispensations of grace - the cross being at center. According to his theory the dispensation of the law preceded the cross and the dispensation of grace followed it. Apparently the two thousand year old partition of Holy Writ into Old and New Testament weren't good enough for him. Darby began to write his own law and was quite good at promoting it.

One of the new dogmas that Darby proposed was the rapture. It followed that his explanation of the millennium required a THIRD ADVENT that he described as the rapture of the elite. According to his theory Christ would appear a second time to evacuate believers into one or more heavenly scenarios. Christ would then appear A THIRD TIME to judge the earth. His theory was so popular that Cyrus Scofield, an American theologian of the era, included Darby's references into his study Bible. They are there to this day. Unfortunately, like most fiction of the 19th century, there are numerous logical flaws in the idea. These flaws also remain to the present day.

Logical flaws in Darby's theory are most apparent in the ongoing debate about the timing of the second or third or forth coming of Christ; pre, mid, post or NO millennium at all. Those who argue the point fail to realize that the entire argument is bogus. The rapture, as defined by Darby, will not happen at all. JESUS, considered to be something of an authority on the subject of His second coming, said so (reference above). But the dogmatic adherence of those who have accepted the theory deny even the words of Christ. Darby and Scofield, not Christ, is the ultimate authority in their minds.

Finally it should be noted to one and all that Mr. Darby was the consort of witches. A man is known by the company he keeps, except among those who've bought into his lies. To them it doesn't matter what Jesus said, what logical flaws present themselves in the rapture argument, or that it is also approved by those who practice the black arts. They will not invest even a little time in research and in the end will march through time expecting the cowards way out of trouble and tribulation instead of exercising faith in the promises of Christ that He will see them THROUGH IT.

In summation, the rapture theory was the invention of a man who sought companionship from witches and who was the greatest con man of modern times. It is not scriptural for even the devil quotes scripture to delude and confuse. it is not an expression of discipleship because Jesus said it would not happen and because Jesus said He would be with the believer in the midst of trouble. It is the gospel of cowards because those who believe it refuse to rest upon faith - choosing the fantasy of escape instead. It is a lie invented by a 19th century American, not a Jewish carpenter or any of those of His century. As of this writing several churches of foreign nations either have rejected the rapture as another American deception, or are in the process of doing so. Those who believe it will not listen to reason or investigate the thing themselves.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft....
 

dadman

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For this we say to you by the word of the Lord .. that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord ..
will not precede those who have fallen asleep .. for the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout ..
with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God .. and the dead in Christ will rise first ..
then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air ..
and so we shall always be with the Lord .. therefore comfort one another with these words

..... 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18

[SIZE=150%]The design of the Gospel is to teach men not only what they should believe .. but also how they should live .. [/SIZE]
It is God’s will that all his should be holy in heart and pure in body for “he that calleth us is holy” . . .
the Christian .. should not be in ignorance of the blessed hope .. the return of Christ to resurrect the dead in him and translate living believers ..
for this is designed to be the greatest comfort of believers . . . 1 Thess 4:16 the Lord Jesus himself .. not the Holy Spirit ..
not the destruction of Jerusalem .. not the diffusion of Christianity .. not the death of the believer ..
this is the blessed hope .. he is coming bringing with him the spirits of those who have died in him ..
their bodies shall be raised and united then with their spirits .. at the same time ..
living believers will be instantly changed and caught up in clouds to be with him ..... gty.org
 

OzSpen

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Finally it should be noted to one and all that Mr. Darby was the consort of witches. A man is known by the company he keeps, except among those who've bought into his lies.
rjp,

When you make a provocative statement like this, the people who read your post on this forum deserve the courtesy of your quoting from J N Darby's writings to demonstrate that he consorted with witches. I'm not a fan of J N Darby's writings, but I'm never going to believe this assertion about J N Darby without your providing proof with documentation of this inflammatory statement.

I await your evidence.

Oz
 

OzSpen

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dadmansabode-com said:
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord .. that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord ..
will not precede those who have fallen asleep .. for the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout ..
with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God .. and the dead in Christ will rise first ..
then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air ..
and so we shall always be with the Lord .. therefore comfort one another with these words

..... 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18

[SIZE=150%]The design of the Gospel is to teach men not only what they should believe .. but also how they should live .. [/SIZE]
It is God’s will that all his should be holy in heart and pure in body for “he that calleth us is holy” . . .
the Christian .. should not be in ignorance of the blessed hope .. the return of Christ to resurrect the dead in him and translate living believers ..
for this is designed to be the greatest comfort of believers . . . 1 Thess 4:16 the Lord Jesus himself .. not the Holy Spirit ..
not the destruction of Jerusalem .. not the diffusion of Christianity .. not the death of the believer ..
this is the blessed hope .. he is coming bringing with him the spirits of those who have died in him ..
their bodies shall be raised and united then with their spirits .. at the same time ..
living believers will be instantly changed and caught up in clouds to be with him ..... gty.org
I'm not a supporter of the pre-tribulation rapture, but there does seem to be some support in the early church (way before the era of J N Darby - 1800-1882 - and his pre-trib promotion). Here are a couple of examples:

In the Shepherd of Hermas (dated ca. 100-160), it is stated: 'You have escaped from great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming' (chapter II, emphasis added).

So this early Christian writing accepted a pre-great tribulation escaping. Sounds awfully like a pre-trib rapture.

Ephraem [or pseudo-Ephraem], the Syrian, of the Byzantine church (ca. AD 306-373) wrote: ''Because all saints and the Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is to about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins' (On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, 2, emphasis added).

Oz
 
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dadman

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I've said for a long time .... whether one believes in pre / mid or post Rapture .... there is no way to be totally dogmatic .. we're speaking of future events ... so long as we know to whom we belong .. Satanic forces may take our lives, but they can never rob us of our faith in Jesus Christ (saving faith that God gives endures even to the end) .... we can discuss and debate when the Rapture might happen ... however the Biblical fallacy would be to deny the event all together as some do ...... http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/new-board/what-are-we-christians-to-anticipate-as-we-see-the-day-approaching/msg261394/#msg261394
 

OzSpen

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dadmansabode-com said:
I've said for a long time .... whether one believes in pre / mid or post Rapture .... there is no way to be totally dogmatic .. we're speaking of future events ... so long as we know to whom we belong .. Satanic forces may take our lives, but they can never rob us of our faith in Jesus Christ (saving faith that God gives endures even to the end) .... we can discuss and debate when the Rapture might happen ... however the Biblical fallacy would be to deny the event all together as some do ...... http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/new-board/what-are-we-christians-to-anticipate-as-we-see-the-day-approaching/msg261394/#msg261394
dad,

I agree. I do not think that any particular view on when Jesus will return should divide us as Christians. The core eschatological value is that Jesus is returning. Some would add that there will be a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous to appear at the final judgment. I do not believe that our view of the rapture, pre-, mid- or post-trib should be core Christian doctrine.

Oz
 
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