The Greek word is "Teleios" You are right, it does mean full age. Tongues , Prophecy and al the gifts will be still with us until Jesus comes for us.
The greek work telios!
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Alanforchrist you are somewhat correct about the meaning butjust because it can mean that unless you have a verse to give it proper context you can not just apply it wherever and to whatever you like.Example: in Mathew it means fullness of age as applied to a man of old ageso without a verse for context you cant just give it a blanket meaning to a part of a thing (a verse or idea) you could only properly apply it to the whole (fullness)of a thing (like age or era or Book)
(kriss;30472)
You know it is important not to minimize this verse when God tells us he will send prophets to do a thing You need to remember Amos, Isiah, Eze ect.And God tells us something else about a true prophet a true prophet of God is 100% right 100% of the time and he/she will talking in a public Forum that the whole world will see God is coming to correct and gather all his children throughout the entire world not some little corner of the earth(Israel) like the first time and especially not in some corner church or not even a giant church This time its about the Entire world. So it will be very obvious to the World when his Sons and Daughters start prophesizingThis will not be a private little thing only a few people hear 15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'Now we can take from this that prophet must produce good fruit Well before we can judge whether the fruit is good or not we must be able to hear and understand itWhy did God give us guidelines to judge prophesy and warn us about false prophetsif we are not to judge what they say Now as I told you before until this happens the prophets we have now are better loosely described or defined as to teach or speak a thing of truth but it still must pass the same test if it is from God it is 100% accurate and must pass the test any christian in good standing should be able to test the fruit out for accuracy another words if I am teaching(prophesying) to you a thing you should be able to check me out in scripture to see if I am telling you the truth. Lets say I tell you Murder is a sinyou or any christian that hears this can look to the law and see I am correct my fruit was goodNow there are other types of prophecy's and prophets and those that dream ect.but all must still pass the same test Example: I am one who has dreams but it is my duty as a child of God to test the prophesy against the same rules the bible lays out it must bear good fruit if for example I dream an event is going to happen it had better happen or it was not good fruit.Now not to get into the tongue argument again but if one cant understand what they are saying how can one test it?? So calling this kind of murmuring prophesy does not pass the test. I dont now what you want to call it but it is not prophesizing as it can not be tested either by the speaker or any other chrstian.All the prophets of old understood what they were saying even if they didn't understand what they were seeing. they had been tested (their fruit proven Good)
So you are saying that Acts 2:17 is still future? They are not prophesying now?
You know it is important not to minimize this verse when God tells us he will send prophets to do a thing You need to remember Amos, Isiah, Eze ect.And God tells us something else about a true prophet a true prophet of God is 100% right 100% of the time and he/she will talking in a public Forum that the whole world will see God is coming to correct and gather all his children throughout the entire world not some little corner of the earth(Israel) like the first time and especially not in some corner church or not even a giant church This time its about the Entire world. So it will be very obvious to the World when his Sons and Daughters start prophesizingThis will not be a private little thing only a few people hear 15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'Now we can take from this that prophet must produce good fruit Well before we can judge whether the fruit is good or not we must be able to hear and understand itWhy did God give us guidelines to judge prophesy and warn us about false prophetsif we are not to judge what they say Now as I told you before until this happens the prophets we have now are better loosely described or defined as to teach or speak a thing of truth but it still must pass the same test if it is from God it is 100% accurate and must pass the test any christian in good standing should be able to test the fruit out for accuracy another words if I am teaching(prophesying) to you a thing you should be able to check me out in scripture to see if I am telling you the truth. Lets say I tell you Murder is a sinyou or any christian that hears this can look to the law and see I am correct my fruit was goodNow there are other types of prophecy's and prophets and those that dream ect.but all must still pass the same test Example: I am one who has dreams but it is my duty as a child of God to test the prophesy against the same rules the bible lays out it must bear good fruit if for example I dream an event is going to happen it had better happen or it was not good fruit.Now not to get into the tongue argument again but if one cant understand what they are saying how can one test it?? So calling this kind of murmuring prophesy does not pass the test. I dont now what you want to call it but it is not prophesizing as it can not be tested either by the speaker or any other chrstian.All the prophets of old understood what they were saying even if they didn't understand what they were seeing. they had been tested (their fruit proven Good)
So you are saying that Acts 2:17 is still future? They are not prophesying now?
No!!!! I don't know where you got that idea I am saying that Acts 2 happened to the Apostles on Pentecost Day and is was A MIRACLESo important a Day and a chapter was devotedto it. There is only one other time in scripture God speaks of this happening again and that is Mark 13 when the Elect(overcomers) are put on trial by Antichrist.It will be another MIRACLE just as the first This is a Major event it ONLY HAPPENS TWICE IN ALL SCRIPTUREOnce at the start of the church age and once at the End of the church age TWO times ONLY one past one future[/B]What is the subject of Mark 13? What will happen in the End times 5Jesus said to them: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 6Many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and will deceive many. Now look the following is future we are being told the things that will happen in the End 9"You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them. These are the Elect the over comers that refuse to take the mark of the beast that will not follow Antichrists new one world religionour witnessing will be seen by the world all nation will be watching this witnessingThis is WHEN -YOUR AND YOUR DAUGHTERS WILL PROPHESIZETO THE WORLDit will finish the same command we received at the beginning of the church age then we were told Go preach the gospel to the Worldthis is what we are supposed to be prophesying then and now and at the end10And the gospel must first be preached to all nations. 11Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit. The holy spirit will speak through you did you see that this is the same event that happened in Acts 2 This only happens TWICE ALL scripture it is in NO WAYITS THE MIRACLE THAT OPENED THE CHURCH AGE and WILL CLOSE THE CHURCH AGEIT has NOTHING to do with 1 Cor. or gifts THE GIFT IS NOT THE SAME AS THE MIRACLE the gift is lowly less than charity NOT A MIRACLE OF GOD THE GIFT WAS SPEAKING FORGEIN LANGUAGES TO BE ABLE TO FULFILL THE COMMAND THEY WERE GIVENPREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE WORLDAnd he told us exactly what we are to prophesies to them the things he told us would happen he told us all the future event we are supposed to be prophesying them we can test them in his word
The gift It was because of the command GO FORTH AND PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE WORLDthat the gift of speaking and understanding foreign Languages was granted otherwise the command of God to go out and teach(prophesies) my word /the good news of the kingdom of God it could Not have been taught without having an ability to speak foreign languages how can you teach (prophecies) the word of God the good news of Christ if you only spoke Hebrew how could you preach to a Greek,or any other foreigner ??????????THE ONLY PROPHESIZING THAT ANYONE IS SUPPOSED TO BE DOING IS THE COMMAND WE WERE GIVEN GO OUT AND PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE WORLD AND PREACH IT TO THEM IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE SO THAT THEY WILL UNDERSTAND ITPaul says it does no good to teach (prophesies) if you do not speak the Languageof who you are talking to it may make you feel good (edify yourself) but if only God and the Angels can understand you. what good is itI would rather you speak one word they understand than 10,000 that no one can understand, this is very simple if you get the lies of men out of your head it is common sense if I tell you to go teach the word in china how can you if you do not speak Chinese it make you feel good you are trying but if you do have an interpreter with you you may as well be talking to the air God will understand you but no one else willGod already knows his word its the World you are supposed to be teaching his Word tothis is how this has been taught for 2000 plus years it is what all the apostels including Paul taught.He even told us exactly what we are to prophesies to them the things he told us would happen he told us all the future event we are supposed to be prophesying them we can test them in his word............not until man added words to scripture that God did not say that men have twisted and lied about the meaning of this gift and verses nowhere are we told to prophesize what men say in murmurings of their own mind or familiar spiritswhat does god say about this kind of prophisesing?Jeremiah 5:31 The prophets prophesy lies, the priests rule by their own authority, and my people love it this way. But what will you do in the endJeremiah 14:14Then the LORD said to me, "The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds.Jeremiah 23:16This is what the LORD Almighty says: "Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you; they fill you with false hopes. They speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the LORD
The word just means "completed." When Paul wrote that letter to the Corinthians, Bible knowledge and prophecy were only partially revealed. He said a time was coming that the completed would come and therefore these things would be done away, or in other words the Bible would be finished. That happened over 1900 years ago when John finished writing Revelation.SealedEternal
Try to understand this from 1Corinthians 13:10. My understanding of those that believe the gifts have ceased is that they ceased at the completion of scripture. They believe that the word Teliosmeans complete scripture. With this in mind tongues, knowledge, and prophecy has ceased since we have the complete word?Has knowledge ceased?Has prophesy ceased?I know you think tongues has ceased as well.Please explain how we learn without knowledge?
Of course there has always been knowlege in a generic sense and that will never cease. It means that new information has ceased to be given so that God's Word is now complete. We don't therefore have to wait around wondering if there is anything else necessary to know about the gospel or some new prophecy to be given. That was all done 1900 years ago, and we can trust that we have all we need to know.SealedEternal
(setfree;30799)
Try to understand this from 1Corinthians 13:10. My understanding of those that believe the gifts have ceased is that they ceased at the completion of scripture. They believe that the word Teliosmeans complete scripture. With this in mind tongues, knowledge, and prophecy has ceased since we have the complete word?Has knowledge ceased?Has prophesy ceased?I know you think tongues has ceased as well.Please explain how we learn without knowledge?
I dont believe that the word just means complete and is only talking about scripture though that is a part of it.Also it means that the perfect is not here yet there is only one that is perfect and that is Christ it will not be untill the fullness of the ageat his second coming that it will be complete I Corinthians 13:10 "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."Jesus Christ is the only perfect one, and when Jesus Christ is come to this earth at the seventh trumpet then every thing that is hid from our minds today will be revealed to us. Now we only have part knowledge we will not have full and perfect knowledge untill the age is complete and fulfilledTeleios (G5046)1) brought to its end, finished2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness3) perfect4) that which is perfecta) consummate human integrity and virtue
of men1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature
Try to understand this from 1Corinthians 13:10. My understanding of those that believe the gifts have ceased is that they ceased at the completion of scripture. They believe that the word Teliosmeans complete scripture. With this in mind tongues, knowledge, and prophecy has ceased since we have the complete word?Has knowledge ceased?Has prophesy ceased?I know you think tongues has ceased as well.Please explain how we learn without knowledge?
I dont believe that the word just means complete and is only talking about scripture though that is a part of it.Also it means that the perfect is not here yet there is only one that is perfect and that is Christ it will not be untill the fullness of the ageat his second coming that it will be complete I Corinthians 13:10 "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."Jesus Christ is the only perfect one, and when Jesus Christ is come to this earth at the seventh trumpet then every thing that is hid from our minds today will be revealed to us. Now we only have part knowledge we will not have full and perfect knowledge untill the age is complete and fulfilledTeleios (G5046)1) brought to its end, finished2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness3) perfect4) that which is perfecta) consummate human integrity and virtue
Grammatically it cannot possibly be Jesus because in Greek the word is written in the neutral gender which means it can't be referring to a person.SealedEternal
That does not mean it can not refer to the End of this age the complete fulfillment of scripture does not happen until Christ ends itTaken in context there is no mention of Bible scripture, though I do believe this is a part knowledge we are told what we need to know not nessarily all Rather, the context speaks of a time when we shall see face to face, when we shall know fully as we are known. These have an apocalyptic, end-time sound to them. When we we see face to face? When Christ returns Until then, we understand in part
I do believe that knowledge and prophecy does imply Scripture since that's where all of God's knowledge and prophecies given to man have been recorded. I don't know what other "knowledge" is going to cease unless people think we will be devoid of any knowledge whatsoever in the next age. I don't think that makes sense.SealedEternal
You have a point and I have said I agreed scriptures are a part of the knowlegebut I do not think it all as a time is also implied
I believe that which is perfect (telios) is when the Bible is complete in it's prophecy. Every i dotted every t crossed, nothing added, nothing taken away, it will be completed as written. Not that the written word is complete, but the fulfillment of that word is finished. Therefore all gifts are still in effect!!!When Jesus comes back and sets up his kingdom, Everything will change as we know it.
No one is arguing that point setfree But that is not all of what the word meansit also implys a time period meaning the fullness/completing of this age alsoand I have never strongly argued the gifts were not still in effect I have mentioned it was said in scripture thats AllMy argument is that MANY are saying the gifts are not what the Bible says they are The Bible never says the gift of tongues is anything other than foreign Languagesand it never says the gift of prophecy is anything other than teaching of the Word of God and the prophecys he gave usSpeaking murmurings and unknown groanings and saying its prophecy is written No where in the Word it is a modern day movement by men. The Bible say our sons and daughters will prophecise at a future date and it will be in a Public forum for Government and Nations
(kriss;30939)
My argument is that MANY are saying the gifts are not what the Bible says they are The Bible never says the gift of tongues is anything other than foreign Languagesand it never says the gift of prophecy is anything other than teaching of the Word of God and the prophecys he gave usSpeaking murmurings and unknown groanings and saying its prophecy is written No where in the Word it is a modern day movement by men. The Bible say our sons and daughters will prophecise at a future date and it will be in a Public forum for Government and Nations
I have to agree with Kriss here. Tongues in the Bible refers to languages, so If you suddenly start preaching the Word to a foreigner in their native language that's great, but I haven't personally seen anyone do that, and what is commonly called tongues today is not Biblical from what I have seen. If there are prophets in the world in the sense of foretelling by God's inspiration, then we should be adding books to the Bible to share this valuable information and preserve it for the future. Every time I have seen someone claim they had this gift and made a specific prophecy however, it failed miserably so I haven't seen any indication that it is valid today either.The scripture says that these things would cease when the completed came, and from all indications I think that time came a long time ago. I am open to the possibility that I am wrong, but so far the fruits of the people who claimed they had such gifts have proven to me that they have ceased.SealedEternal
My argument is that MANY are saying the gifts are not what the Bible says they are The Bible never says the gift of tongues is anything other than foreign Languagesand it never says the gift of prophecy is anything other than teaching of the Word of God and the prophecys he gave usSpeaking murmurings and unknown groanings and saying its prophecy is written No where in the Word it is a modern day movement by men. The Bible say our sons and daughters will prophecise at a future date and it will be in a Public forum for Government and Nations
I have to agree with Kriss here. Tongues in the Bible refers to languages, so If you suddenly start preaching the Word to a foreigner in their native language that's great, but I haven't personally seen anyone do that, and what is commonly called tongues today is not Biblical from what I have seen. If there are prophets in the world in the sense of foretelling by God's inspiration, then we should be adding books to the Bible to share this valuable information and preserve it for the future. Every time I have seen someone claim they had this gift and made a specific prophecy however, it failed miserably so I haven't seen any indication that it is valid today either.The scripture says that these things would cease when the completed came, and from all indications I think that time came a long time ago. I am open to the possibility that I am wrong, but so far the fruits of the people who claimed they had such gifts have proven to me that they have ceased.SealedEternal
Why would God give the church great gifts to edify, comfort etc. and then stop speaking to them in the same ways? The God I serve is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. His written word will come to pass! You can not add or take away from that fact. How we interpret it, or how we believe it, is the what satan thrives on. The gifts are still here! The Holy Spirit is still Here! If tongues is what you say (foreign languages) and it was to help spread the gospel. Why would God take that away today? Why do our missionaries have to learn a language? You can not have it both ways. If you believe the gifts are here, tongues are here!If you believe they are not, then we do not have knowledge, prophesy, foreign languages (that does not have to be taught)etc.I hear a lot of mixed messages in this thread and others concerning the gifts. I have alot to learn but you can not have them both ways.
They are not mixed messages you are trying to make the gifts something they are notYou are trying to make them the same thing in Acts that were bestwoded upon the Apostles Example: In Mark the aspostles are told they could drink poisen and not dieDo You want to try this? Should anyone today claiming to have gifts? The gifts given the Apostles were spirtual gifts needed to start a new church It is my belief that it is these gifts that have ended and we have a differnt set of gifts in 1 Cor. because we have the Telios i.e.the completed word We have a very differnt set of gifts not a watered down version, if you will, different,probably better said Natural rather than supernatural We have the ability to learn Languages, to read the prophecys in the word, to have knowledge of the scripture The good news to build our faith ect We do not have the need of the spiritual gifts given the Apostels God Ended gifts given the ApostelsFrom Easton Dictionary Gr. charismata), gifts supernaturally bestowed on the early Christians, each having his own proper gift or gifts for the edification of the body of Christ. These were the result of the extraordinary operation of the Spirit, as on the day of Pentecost. They were the gifts of speaking with tongues, casting out devils, healing, etc. ( Mar 16:17,18), usually communicated by the medium of the laying on of the hands of the apostles ( Act 8:17; 19:6; 1Ti 4:14). These charismata were enjoyed only for a time. They could not continue always in the Church. They were suited to its infancy and to the necessities of those times.
I do not see this watered down gifts that you speak of in scripture.Do you believe the gifts have ceased in 1 Corinthians?
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