How To Get To Heaven When You Die

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OzSpen

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Butch5 said:


I did OZ. In post 397 I addressed 4 of the passages you posted. I address Job 26:5-6, Gen 49:33, Deut 32:22, and Ps 49: 13-15. Also, I addressed Is. 14:9-10 in post 414. However, that's not the real issue here. As I've repeatedly said you're arguing from and unargued philosophical bias. Until you prove your premise you don't really have an argument. I could argue all day long that martians were in my yard last night. However, if I don't prove that martians exist the argument is pointless. You say these passages are proof that the dead are somehow alive, yet you haven't proven that the dead can be alive. Your argument is actually begging the question. It assumes that these passages teach that the dead are alive to conclude that the dead are alive, it's circular.

I offered to look at your passages one at time. We can go over them and see what they really say.
[SIZE=small]Butch,

I have demonstrated at #417 that what happens at death for the unbeliever is not annihilation. Life that continues beyond the grave is not my invention or philosophical bias. It is derived from an inductive study of Scripture which you don't accept.

The Scriptures, although not detailed, are clear that at death a person's spirit 'returned to God who gave it' (Eccl. 12:7). According to John 11:17-26, to live and believe is followed by never dying. Jesus was crystal clear that everyone who lives and believes in Him shall never ever die ultimately. Death for the believer does not interrupt this eternal life that began at the point of commitment to Christ while on earth. Jesus said to Martha: 'I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?' (John 11:25-26 ESV). From what you have written, Butch, your answer to Jesus' question, 'Do you believe this?' would be, 'No, I don't'.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=small]Paul stated that 'we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord' (2 Cor. 5:8). To the thief on the cross, Jesus said, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise” (Luke 23:43). So, at death, for the believer is to leave the body and be at home with the Lord. Where? 'In Paradise' according to what Jesus said to the dying thief on the cross.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=small]Why is the final destiny of the redeemed variously described in the NT as heaven (Col. 1:5), Paradise (Luke 23:43), and Abraham’s bosom/side (Luke 16:22)? [/SIZE][SIZE=small]We have no difficulty referring to a house as a residence, mansion, dwelling, and perhaps a palace for some. God has no difficulty referring to heaven by these various designations that mean the same place (see also 2 Cor. 12:2-3).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=small]What about the souls of unbelievers at death? [/SIZE][SIZE=small]Jesus stated in the story (parable) of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16 that the rich man, the unbeliever, went to “Hades, being in torment” (Lk 16:23). The 'wicked servant' will go to the place where 'there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth' (Matt. 24:51).

I am not promoting a philosophical bias or false teaching of life that continues beyond death for believer and unbeliever. This is biblical Christianity that I have garnered from an inductive study of Scripture.

Oz[/SIZE]
 

ewq1938

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OzSpen said:
1. Strong's is a valued Concordance of the Bible, with a few other Greek helps. They are nothing more than helps. It is NOT a highly respected Greek lexicon. Arndt & Gingrich is the Rolls Royce of Greek lexicons. Thayer's lexicon has also provided valuable insight into Greek use. That's not the role of Strong's Concordance. And we haven't yet gotten to the authoritative Greek word studies of (a) Kittel & Friedrich, and ( B) Colin Brown.

As I said, Strong's is a valid and respected concordance. I always use more than one source because it's wise but each one is valid and useful.
2. Strong's definition does not match with Arndt & Gringrich's lexicon or Thayer's lexicon.
Yes it does.

Blind Freddie can see that the meanings are not identical with Strong's.
Another use of an argumentative fallacy. I see you are equally good at identifying them as you are with using them.



3. The normal meaning of apollumi is destroy, ruin.
No, it's destroy as in annihilate. Metaphorically it means less than that such as being ruined or damaged.


To destroy or ruin something does not mean to annihilate it as I've demonstrated with a couple examples in a previous post. My grandson visited me at the weekend and accidentally hit a lamp beside the lounge chair. The lamp smashed, was destroyed and had to be thrown into the wheelie rubbish bin outside of our house. I can assure you that the lamp was destroyed and is no longer fit for use, but it is most definitely not annihilated and extinguished from existence.

It would if you had put it in a fire hot enough. The word's meaning is always based on context.




4. I agree that fire can destroy things, but there are many examples where fire's destruction does not annihilate. For example, in the first century when fire destroyed a stone building, it did not annihilate it. It could not, because of the nature of stone.
That's only a partial destruction obviously. Has the building been made of wood, it would have been fully destroyed.


We know in Matt 10:28 that 'destroy' cannot mean annihilation for these reasons:

(a) In the previous post I demonstrated that the meaning of apollumi was NOT annihilation but ruin or 'to denote to give over to eternal misery' (Thayer).

And you cherry picked one small part of the definition that was labeled "metaphoric." So you are misrepresenting the words full meaning. It does mean to destroy, in various senses.



( B) The Luke 12:4-5 parallel to Matt 10:28 uses ballw (cast) as the synonym for apollumi. 'Cast into Gehenna [helll]' (Lk 12:5) and 'destroy ... in Gehenna [hell]' (Matt 10;28). The wicked are 'cast into' or 'destroyed', i.e. they are to be given 'over to eternal misery' (Thayer) or destruction, ruin (Arndt & Gingrich).
Eternal torment is an opinion. Only Satan appears to stay alive in the lake of fire but even that can be debated using scripture. None else is described to possible continue to exist in the lake of fire and "ballw" is not what we are talking about, it is a red herring.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Don't assume “day and night forever and ever” is literal because Isaiah uses similar language concerning Edom and Edom is not still burning.

Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Isa 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
Isa 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

This is an intentional exaggeration and should be understood in that way just as Rev 20:10 should be.

Another example:

Exo 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.


Not literally forever of course. It simply means "a long time", ie: the rest of his life, an intentional exaggeration.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Sodom and Gomorrha is not still burning therefore this eternal fire does not imply the target burns forever but this fire can never die out and since God is a consuming fire it makes sense that it is eternal because God is eternal.


(c) We know from other passages in the NT that at death unbelievers continue their existence. The wicked 'will go away into eternal punishment'

The punishment is annihilation and it is eternal.


(Matt 25;46) and Rev 14:10-11 makes it clear that those who worship the beast will 'drink the wine of God's wrath'. It does not say the wine of God's annihilation.
And that's called the argument from silence fallacy. Other scriptures make it clear they are annihilated:

Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

The wicked do not receive eternal life in hell fire:


"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4.

"He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Revelation 2:11

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:14,15.

"The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved." Psalm 75:3.

"Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more." Psalm 104:35.

"Consume them in wrath, consume them, that they may not be." Psalm 59:13.

"The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy." Psalm 145:20

"When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever: Psalm 92:7

"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be as stubble; and the day cometh that shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Malachi 4:1

"And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed." Isaiah 1:28

"Enter ye in at the straight gate: for wide is the fate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat." Matthew 7:13

"I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree. Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found." Psalm 37:35,36

He isn't found! Not "put into hell to be tormented for eternity". Scripture clearly shows the wicked being destroyed.

The punishment for sin is death (Romans 6:23), which is also called the second death (Rev 20), and that judgement (also called damnation) is written to be eternal/everlasting (Mark 3:29, Hebrews 6:2).



What does this wrath involve? 'He will be tormented with fire and sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest day or night, these worshipers of the beast and his image'. They are very much alive and experiencing torment. They have not been snuffed out by annihilation. You are misleading people with your annihilationist false doctrine.

None of that proves God eternally tortures anyone. It is that which is a misleading scare tactic which has been terribly abused by many in the Church for a long time.

You aren't even exegeting the verses properly:

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:

Keep in mind chapters and verses are not in the originals. The above is all clearly one subject and context. Nothing suggests they are tortured forever. All it says is the smoke from their torment rises forever. It doesn't state a continued torment. That is inserted by many people to make it say more than what it says..



and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
And this is clearly a separate thought, because it says they don't have rest who WORSHIP the beast PRESENT TENSE, not worshiped past tense so this lack of rest applies to when they are worshiping the beast not after they are in the lake of fire.
 

ewq1938

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5. With my examples of the uses of apollumi, I HAVE NOT interpreted out of context. I've given example after example of where that word CANNOT mean annihilation. I've given you more examples in this post (see #4) of how unbelievers at death are not snuffed out in annihilation.

And none involved destruction by fire which is what we are discussing.



We have another clear example from 2 Pet 2:9 of what happens to the unrighteous between death and the resurrection, 'to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment'. One has to be pushing your kind of annihilationist false agenda to miss what happens to unbelievers after death. They are being kept 'under punishment'. Do you get it? They are experiencing punishment until the resurrection. They are NOT ANNIHILATED. That's Bible!
lol...no one is ANNIHILATED until the great white throne judgment in the end of Rev 20. Naturally they are alive before that.


I do not believe we have common ground for further discussion as you have not used the correct meaning of apollumi
I use it properly based on context, you do not. You choose to ignore when it means destroy, I do not.

and you refuse to accept the punishing that unbelievers experience in the intermediate state until the resurrection and then eternal punishment in Gehenna [hell].
This is a scarecrow fallacy. I am well aware of the punishment the wicked suffer until judgment day. How can you charge that I refuse to accept it when we have never discussed it until now and I never said anything opposite?? You clearly jumped to a very far away assumption that has no relation to my beliefs at all.
 

OzSpen

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Butch5 said:
1. The grave (the resting place of the body) is distinct from sheol, which is where the spirits of the dead gather. We see this in verses such as Isa 14:9-10 (ESV). '“In the place of the dead [sheol] there is excitement over your arrival. The spirits of world leaders and mighty kings long dead stand up to see you. With one voice they all cry out, ‘Now you are as weak as we are!'.

Do you really believe this passage is speaking of the dead somehow being alive? Isn't this figurative language? Look at the context of the passage.
Butch,

I wrote: '1. The grave (the resting place of the body) is distinct from sheol, which is where the spirits of the dead gather. We see this in verses such as Isa 14:9-10 (ESV). '“In the place of the dead [sheol] there is excitement over your arrival. The spirits of world leaders and mighty kings long dead stand up to see you. With one voice they all cry out, ‘Now you are as weak as we are!'. That reference should have been the NLT.

Isa 14:9 (ESV) reads,

Sheol beneath is stirred up
to meet you when you come;
it rouses the shades to greet you,
all who were leaders of the earth;
it raises from their thrones
all who were kings of the nations.

Let's check out OT exegete, H C Leupold, and his understanding of sheol in Isa 14:9.

'Sheol is the region of the dead; all men go there after this life. Sheol is an insatiable monster, in a sense. It is a kingdom of shades (ie. ghosts), or specters (spirits of the dead), in another sense. Job 3:11-19; and 26:1-6 are similar to our passage. Men still exist there, but they are reduced to the consistency of shadows; they have no more reality than that. They may be stirred from their slumber and apathy. But they can be aroused only to make a few remarks. Then they lapse back into inaction. All this is a highly poetic way of saying that there is a Hereafter, but we know very little about it. The Hereafter is an area on which for the most part the Old Testament had very incomplete revelation' (Leupold1971:258).
When life is over, the dead, according to the OT, were gathered in sheol with their tribes and families. We know this because of OT expressions such as 'go to your fathers' or Abraham was 'gathered to his people' (see Gen 15:15; 25:8, 17, etc).

It is you who is on the wrong side of the exegesis. At death neither believers nor unbelievers become extinct in the grave. Life continues beyond death. That's Bible and not philosophical bias.

Oz

Works consulted
Leupold, H C 1971. Exposition of Isaiah, vol 1. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House.
 

OzSpen

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ewq1938 said:
I am well aware of the punishment the wicked suffer until judgment day. How can you charge that I refuse to accept it when we have never discussed it until now and I never said anything opposite?? You clearly jumped to a very far away assumption that has no relation to my beliefs at all.
No you are not! What does Matt 25:46 (ESV) state: 'And these [unrighteous] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life'.

The length of punishment for the unrighteous is as long as for the length of life for the righteous - ETERNAL. The Great White Throne judgment cannot change the length of time of punishment for the unrighteous. You miss a fundamental meaning of punishment for the unrighteous - ETERNAL.

When you ignore this meaning, there is no means of further discussion. You have excluded a critical verse from Scripture, thus making your position untenable.

Oz
 

ewq1938

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OzSpen said:
No you are not! What does Matt 25:46 (ESV) state: 'And these [unrighteous] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life'.
You said, "and you refuse to accept the punishing that unbelievers experience in the intermediate state until the resurrection"

This is false as I know the wicked suffer before being resurrected. Our only disagreement is your belief in eternal torture which is eternal life and the unsaved do not get eternal life.


The length of punishment for the unrighteous is as long as for the length of life for the righteous - ETERNAL.

But those who will be destroyed are destroyed forever and those that receive life live forever. It is not a daily torture anymore than a person needs to be given life everyday.



The Great White Throne judgment cannot change the length of time of punishment for the unrighteous. You miss a fundamental meaning of punishment for the unrighteous - ETERNAL.

No, what I don't misunderstand is the punishment is not daily. The result of the punishment lasts forever...they are destroyed and no scripture states otherwise where I posted a slew of verses that speak of true destruction.


When you ignore this meaning, there is no means of further discussion. You have excluded a critical verse from Scripture, thus making your position untenable.

I haven't, but you have excluded multiples without even a comment. They show you to be in error. You aren't following the context properly in Rev 214 nor did you even notice that "worship" was in the present tense proving the lack of rest was during the trib not after judgement day. You've done some sloppy studying on this topic likely because you have always accepted the doctrine of eternal torture and never bothered to look into it deeper. Well, I have and I have found it to be unscriptural even in Satan's case where being tormented forever can easily be argued to be a figure of speech used elsewhere in scripture as not actually forever.

But hey, I still applaud your work on the spirit and soul being the same. In all my years I haven't found anyone that recognized that.
 

OzSpen

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ewq1938 said:
You said, "and you refuse to accept the punishing that unbelievers experience in the intermediate state until the resurrection"

This is false as I know the wicked suffer before being resurrected. Our only disagreement is your belief in eternal torture which is eternal life and the unsaved do not get eternal life.

But those who will be destroyed are destroyed forever and those that receive life live forever. It is not a daily torture anymore than a person needs to be given life everyday.

No, what I don't misunderstand is the punishment is not daily. The result of the punishment lasts forever...they are destroyed and no scripture states otherwise where I posted a slew of verses that speak of true destruction.

I haven't, but you have excluded multiples without even a comment. They show you to be in error. You aren't following the context properly in Rev 214 nor did you even notice that "worship" was in the present tense proving the lack of rest was during the trib not after judgement day. You've done some sloppy studying on this topic likely because you have always accepted the doctrine of eternal torture and never bothered to look into it deeper. Well, I have and I have found it to be unscriptural even in Satan's case where being tormented forever can easily be argued to be a figure of speech used elsewhere in scripture as not actually forever.

But hey, I still applaud your work on the spirit and soul being the same. In all my years I haven't found anyone that recognized that.
You refuse to accept the lexicons' understanding of apollumi (I destroy), so there is no way that you and I are ever going to reach a biblical understanding of the meaning of destruction when you reject the lexicon meaning. Apollumi describes burst wineskins and spoiled food (see Matt 9:17; John 6:27). We are told in the NT that Noah's generation was 'destroyed' (Lk 17:27) as were the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah (Lk 17:28-29). However, we know that 'destroyed' here does not mean annihilation because Sodom will face up to the day of judgment (Matt 11:24). So 'destroyed' cannot mean annihilated if they are still in existence and will face judgment.

Mark 9:47-48 (ESV) states, 'And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell [Gehenna], 48 ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’

So Gehenna/hell is a place where there is no dying of the worm and the fire is not quenched. That is NOT annihilation. Gehenna is the place of conscious torment where there is use of imagery from the Bible (Isa 66:24), the Apocrypha (Judith 16:17) and the Talmud (Mid. Gen. 214).

We know there is conscious suffering for the unbelievers in Hades and Gehenna because that is the teaching of Scripture. We know that after death, the unrighteous are being kept 'under punishment until the day of judgment' (2 Pet 2:9 ESV). However, what happens at the resurrection of the unrighteous at the final judgement when they are cast into Gehenna? Mark 9:48 is clear with metaphorical language of the worm not dying in the midst of fire. So there is continuing hellish life with the fire of Gehenna. This is confirmed by the verse I gave you from Matt 25:46 that 'eternal punishment' for the unrighteous is as long as 'eternal life' for the righteous.

When a prisoner gets 20 years of punishment for murder, his punishing goes on for 20 years. Therefore, when the unrighteous get 'eternal punishment' in Hades and then Genenna, the punishing/punishment goes on for ETERNITY.

You seem to be denying the obvious because of your predisposition/presupposition of annihilation. I can't see any way through for our agreeing on what happens to unbelievers at death. Eternal punishing = eternal punishment = eternal damnation = eternal destruction = eternal harm for unbelievers after death.

You wrote: 'You said, "and you refuse to accept the punishing that unbelievers experience in the intermediate state until the resurrection".This is false as I know the wicked suffer before being resurrected. Our only disagreement is your belief in eternal torture which is eternal life and the unsaved do not get eternal life'.

That is not what I wrote. At no point have I affirmed that the unsaved have 'eternal life'. According to Matt. 25:46 (ESV), they experience 'eternal punishment'. It is continuing life after death with enduring punishing/punishment. Please do not distort what I said. There is NO eternal life after death for unbelievers. There is only eternal punishment - punishment that goes on forever and ever.

Thank you for your kind words about my defense of the bipartite nature of human beings of soul = spirit and used interchangeably.
 

ewq1938

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OzSpen said:
Mark 9:47-48 (ESV) states, 'And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell [Gehenna], 48 ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’
So Gehenna/hell is a place where there is no dying of the worm and the fire is not quenched. That is NOT annihilation.
That doesn't come anywhere near what you want it to mean. It only denotes that they can't escape their fate. There is no worm, nor could one survive fire anyways. Using a clearly figurative passage isn't going to help your case, especially when nothing supports they remain alive.



Gehenna is the place of conscious torment where there is use of imagery from the Bible (Isa 66:24), the Apocrypha (Judith 16:17) and the Talmud (Mid. Gen. 214).
I will only accept canonized scripture.


Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.


This clearly has nothing to do with the lake of fire nor are they alive.


We know there is conscious suffering for the unbelievers in Hades and Gehenna because that is the teaching of Scripture.
In Hades they are alive, in Gehenna they are literally destroyed where nothing remains.


We know that after death, the unrighteous are being kept 'under punishment until the day of judgment' (2 Pet 2:9 ESV). However, what happens at the resurrection of the unrighteous at the final judgement when they are cast into Gehenna? Mark 9:48 is clear with metaphorical language of the worm not dying in the midst of fire.

Nothing in the verse suggests the wicked remain alive.


So there is continuing hellish life with the fire of Gehenna. This is confirmed by the verse I gave you from Matt 25:46 that 'eternal punishment' for the unrighteous is as long as 'eternal life' for the righteous.

Length of the judgement is not equal to daily torments or daily life being given out. Your logic is unsound on these matters.




When a prisoner gets 20 years of punishment for murder, his punishing goes on for 20 years. Therefore, when the unrighteous get 'eternal punishment' in Hades and then Genenna, the punishing/punishment goes on for ETERNITY.

Apples and oranges. The prisoner is not sentenced to death but those not found in the book of life will be destroyed which also means they die.

You seem to be denying the obvious because of your predisposition/presupposition of annihilation.
No, I merely see all the logical holes your doctrine contains. I used to believe as you did until I really dug into it deeper.

Thank you for your kind words about my defense of the bipartite nature of human beings of soul = spirit and used interchangeably.

Welcome. I want you to know while we might see "hell" differently there are many points of agreement including life continuing after physical death.
 

Butch5

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OzSpen said:
[SIZE=small]Butch,

I have demonstrated at #417 that what happens at death for the unbeliever is not annihilation. Life that continues beyond the grave is not my invention or philosophical bias. It is derived from an inductive study of Scripture which you don't accept.

The Scriptures, although not detailed, are clear that at death a person's spirit 'returned to God who gave it' (Eccl. 12:7). According to John 11:17-26, to live and believe is followed by never dying. Jesus was crystal clear that everyone who lives and believes in Him shall never ever die ultimately. Death for the believer does not interrupt this eternal life that began at the point of commitment to Christ while on earth. Jesus said to Martha: 'I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?' (John 11:25-26 ESV). From what you have written, Butch, your answer to Jesus' question, 'Do you believe this?' would be, 'No, I don't'.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=small]Paul stated that 'we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord' (2 Cor. 5:8). To the thief on the cross, Jesus said, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise” (Luke 23:43). So, at death, for the believer is to leave the body and be at home with the Lord. Where? 'In Paradise' according to what Jesus said to the dying thief on the cross.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=small]Why is the final destiny of the redeemed variously described in the NT as heaven (Col. 1:5), Paradise (Luke 23:43), and Abraham’s bosom/side (Luke 16:22)? [/SIZE][SIZE=small]We have no difficulty referring to a house as a residence, mansion, dwelling, and perhaps a palace for some. God has no difficulty referring to heaven by these various designations that mean the same place (see also 2 Cor. 12:2-3).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=small]What about the souls of unbelievers at death? [/SIZE][SIZE=small]Jesus stated in the story (parable) of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16 that the rich man, the unbeliever, went to “Hades, being in torment” (Lk 16:23). The 'wicked servant' will go to the place where 'there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth' (Matt. 24:51).

I am not promoting a philosophical bias or false teaching of life that continues beyond death for believer and unbeliever. This is biblical Christianity that I have garnered from an inductive study of Scripture.

Oz[/SIZE]
Oz, look at the passage closely without presuppositions.

[SIZE=small] Jesus said to Martha: 'I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?'[/SIZE]

Whoever believes in Jesus , though he die. So, we see the believer can die. "Yet shall he live". Notice shall is future tense. Thought he dies, yet shall he live. "And everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die". What we see is the believer dies, then he lives, and once he lives he shall never die. That's the plain reading of the passage. It's tralking about the resurrection just as Jesus said. It's not saying dead people are alive.

Paul stated that 'we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord' (2 Cor. 5:8).

Let's look at it in context.

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. (2 Cor. 5:1-9 KJV)

In verse 1 Paul speaks of two bodies, one earthly and the other not made with hands eternal in the heavens. In verse 2 he says, " earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:". The Greek word translated "clothed upon" means to put on over. like you put on a coat over your clothing. To put one thing over another. In verse 3 he says, " If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. OK, so Paul wants to be over clothed so as to not be found naked. Remember he's talking about bodies. So, Paul doesn't want to be found without a body. He is refuting the Greek idea of man as a spirit being. In verse 4 he says, "For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life." Ok, so in the earthly body he groans, and is burdened, not that he should be unclothed, without a body, but rather over clothed, (to put on over) so that mortality might be swallowed up of life. He wants to put the body made without hand over the earthly body so that mortality might swallowed up by immortality. Then in verse 8 he say, "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." This is the verse you quoted. If we look at it in the context of Paul wanting to put the body from Heaven over the the earthly body we can see that Paul is not talking about leaving his body and being some sort of disembodied consciousness. If you look at the definitions of the words absent and present, Paul's meaning become clear.

This is what Kittle says of these two words

ekdēméō, endēméō.
These two terms denote being abroad and staying at home. Not used in the LXX, they occur in the NT in 2 Cor. 5:6ff. to express the thoughts (1) that bodily existence is absence from the Lord, and (2) that full fellowship with the Lord is possible only apart from this existence. We and the Lord are in separate spheres. Faith overcomes the separation (v. 7) but is not the final reality. We thus desire to be out of the present sphere and at home with the Lord so as to enjoy the full fellowship of sight. Nevertheless, even in the present sphere the desire to please the Lord gives direction to life (v. 9).
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament: Abridged in One Volume.

Gingrich Greek New Testament Lexicon

Absent
1973 ἐκδημέω
ἐκδημέω leave one's home or country, fig. leave, get away from 2 Cor 5:8. Be in a strange land, fig. be away, be absent 5:6, 9.* [pg 59]

Present

2218 ἐνδημέω
ἐνδημέω be at home fig. 2 Cor 5:6, 8f.* [Cf. endemic.] [pg 65]



Danker Greek NT Lexicon

Absent
1976 ἐκδημέω
ἐκδημέω [ἔκδημος (ἐκ, δῆμος ‘area within which one lives’) ‘away from home’, with focus on societal aspect of familiar surroundings; ‘be out of one’s homeland’] ‘be away from one’s customary location’, in extended sense be away (from), be absent 2 Cor 5:6, 8f.

The words absent and present refer to being away from or in one's homeland. When one is in their homeland they are among their people, when they are abroad they aren't. Paul often refers to the church as the "body" of Christ. So, when Paul is absent from the body, he is absent from the church, the body. However, being absent from the body does not mean he is immediately present with the Lord.

We have to see what Paul believed about what happens at death. If at death the believer simply has no conscious existence, then he would have no concept of time between his death and his resurrection. To him it would seem instantaneous. But, is that what Paul believed. I submit that is exactly what Paul believed. In this passage Paul is explicitly stating the state of dead believers.


12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. (1 Cor. 15:12-18 KJV)

Paul argues that if there is no resurrection of the dead then believers who have died have perished. They are not in Heaven, they're not in Hades, they're not in some intermediate state. He said if there is no resurrection then they had perished. This shows plainly that Paul didn't believe that Christians were in some other state at death. Either they are resurrected or they're gone.

So, the passage in 2 Cor 5 actually says the opposite of what many claim. Paul says he doesn't want to be without a body. And we see from his word in 1 Cor 15 that the only afterlife that Paul believed in was the Resurrection and nothing else.




To the thief on the cross, Jesus said, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise” (
Luke 23:43). So, at death, for the believer is to leave the body and be at home with the Lord. Where? 'In Paradise' according to what Jesus said to the dying thief on the cross.

1. There was no punctuation in the original texts. So the statement could just have the comma places after the word today rather than before it. That changes the entire meaning of the sentence. “Truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise”.
2 What was the thief asking Jesus? Did he want to know where he'd be later that day? Or, did he want assurance that he'd be in the kingdom? He wanted assurance he'd be in the kingdom. So, if Jesus told him he'd be in paradise later that day He didn't answer the guys question. However, if Paradise is the kingdom then He did give the thief assurance. The word paradise simply means a garden. I would submit this is more in line with what the thief was asking for.

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. (Rev. 2:7 KJV)

However, we know that people haven't received that yet.




Why is the final destiny of the redeemed variously described in the NT as heaven (Col. 1:5), Paradise (Luke 23:43), and Abraham’s bosom/side (Luke 16:22)?
We have no difficulty referring to a house as a residence, mansion, dwelling, and perhaps a palace for some. God has no difficulty referring to heaven by these various designations that mean the same place (see also 2 Cor. 12:2-3).

Is it? Or are you inferring that?

5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; (Col. 1:5 KJV)

The hope is laid up in Heaven. That doesn't necessitate that people go to Heaven to get it. Jesus said He is coming back and His reward is with Him. John in the Revelation saw the New Jerusalem descending from Heaven. God said that He would dwell with men, not that men would dwell with Him.

Paradise is a garden. It's the Garden of God which is coming when Christ returns. And Abraham's bosom is a man's chest not a location. It means to be in a close relationship or fellowship with Abraham. Consider Genesis.

5 And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee. (Gen. 16:5 KJV)
[quoteWhat about the souls of unbelievers at death? Jesus stated in the story (parable) of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16 that the rich man, the unbeliever,went to “Hades, being in torment” (Lk 16:23). The 'wicked servant' will go to the place where 'there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth' (Matt. 24:51).[/quote]

Jesus didn't say either one was a believer or an unbeliever. He said one was rich and one was beggar. I would submit that this passage isn't even relating to life after death, but rather is a parable about the demise of the priesthood. If you look at the details and the story line is the preceding chapters it's laid out. Additionally, there are quite a few problems claiming that this is a real even. One problem is this, Jesus said that the rich man was in flame and torment in Hades. However, Hades is "NOT" the place of fiery torment, that is Gehenna. And Jesus certainly knew that since He is the one who said the wicked would be burned there. If Gehenna is the place of fiery torment why would Jesus say the rich man was in Hades in flame and torment? I submit that He was alluding to something the Pharisees (to whom He was speaking) would be well familiar with, the Song of Moses. The Song of Moses predicts Israels rebellion and in it we find this.


21 They have provoked Me to jealousy by what is not God; They have moved Me to anger by their foolish idols. But I will provoke them to jealousy by those who are not a nation; I will move them to anger by a foolish nation.
22 For a fire is kindled by my anger, And shall burn to the lowest hell; It shall consume the earth with her increase, And set on fire the foundations of the mountains. (Deut. 32:21-22 NKJ)

This is the only other passage that I can find in the Scriptures that speaks of fire in Hades and it's God's anger.The priesthood definitely suffered God's anger. There's a lot more to this if you want to discuss it but it's too much for this post.


The Mathew 24 verse doesn't say when this weeping an gnashing of teeth happens. I would submit that it is at the resurrection when they see the righteous. Remember Paul said, if there is no resurrection the believers had perished.


I am not promoting a philosophical bias or false teaching of life that continues beyond death for believer and unbeliever. This is biblical Christianity that I have garnered from an inductive study of Scripture.
Yes, but it's by way of inference. That's why I keep calling it an unargued philosophical bias. None of the passages that you've posted "teach" or layout a plan on how the dead are alive. That idea is an inference. The idea that man has a ghost that lives on after death is so widely believed, even among non Christians. I'd bet you believed it before you became a Christian, I know I did.

That's why I laid out what I said about man consisting of a body and the breath of life and the two became a living soul. Those passages lay out how man was created and what happens to him when he dies, no inferences.
 

ewq1938

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A summation against the eternal torture doctrine:


Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

G622
a?p?´???µ?
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.


Both speak about fire which can fully destroy/consume something...the fire of a star is very hot, but that man can recreate the same temperatures in welding makes me think the fire of "hell" is something far stronger/hotter.




Fire represents a destructive force. This lake of fire won't be normal fire as we can create ourselves. I believe it to be God himself since God is a consuming fire. So God can create something, and can uncreate something as well. I believe the lake of fire is simply an uncreating process described in a way simple so people could understand it's basic function- destruction.



There was a time none of us existed. God has decided that the bad, wicked, evil etc etc of us should return to that non-existence. There is a fire which is unlike any fire man knows which will be used to destroy souls which essentially and definitively uncreates them.

Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.




There is only one kind of eternal life, and that is with God as overcomers judged to life. Those judged to death on judgment day, which is called the second death, will not have eternal life in hell or torment. Their punishment is death and that punishment will last for all eternity. They shall not live eternally in agony because they shall not have eternal life of any kind.




Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Don't assume “day and night forever and ever” is literal because Isaiah uses similar language concerning Edom and Edom is not still burning.

Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Isa 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
Isa 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

This is an intentional exaggeration and should be understood in that way just as Rev 20:10 should be.

Another example:

Exo 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.


Not literally forever of course. It simply means "a long time", ie: the rest of his life, an intentional exaggeration.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Sodom and Gomorrha is not still burning therefore this eternal fire does not imply the target burns forever but this fire can never die out and since God is a consuming fire it makes sense that it is eternal because God is eternal.


The wicked do not receive eternal life in hell fire:


"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4.

"He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Revelation 2:11

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:14,15.

"The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved." Psalm 75:3.

"Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more." Psalm 104:35.

"Consume them in wrath, consume them, that they may not be." Psalm 59:13.

"The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy." Psalm 145:20

"When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever: Psalm 92:7

"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be as stubble; and the day cometh that shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Malachi 4:1

"And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed." Isaiah 1:28

"Enter ye in at the straight gate: for wide is the fate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat." Matthew 7:13

"I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree. Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found." Psalm 37:35,36

He isn't found! Not "put into hell to be tormented for eternity". Scripture clearly shows the wicked being destroyed.

The punishment for sin is death (Romans 6:23), which is also called the second death (Rev 20), and that judgement (also called damnation) is written to be eternal/everlasting (Mark 3:29, Hebrews 6:2).




Two things happen to the wicked. First they will die the second death which means soul and body dies and then their soul and body shall be destroyed.


Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Here we have death of the soul likened to destruction of the soul. One cannot be destroyed without dying so they two go hand in hand. While the Greek word here can mean several things, we know from other scriptures esp. the OT which has only one meaning for "destruction" being literal destruction, that this word here means:

apollumi
Thayer Definition:
1) to destroy
1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
1b) render useless
1c) to kill
1d) to declare that one must be put to death
1e) metaphorically to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2) to destroy
2a) to lose
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G575 and the base of G3639
Citing in TDNT: 1:394, 67





Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.


This also relates the death of the wicked to their complete destruction as well as death.




Psalms 145:20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.



Lets use the same logic you apply. We know that our preservation by the Lord shall be eternal, known as salvation or eternal life then the opposite for the wicked would be eternal death and destruction right?



Isaiah 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.
Isaiah 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.



Here the same concept. All sinners judged and consumed at the same time which cannot be anything other than the final judgement.






The punishment for sin is death (Romans 6:23), which is also called the second death (Rev 20), and that judgement (also called damnation) is written to be eternal/everlasting (Mark 3:29, Hebrews 6:2).


Psalms 92:7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:



Some teach that God will not do as he says.


Psalms 37:16 A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked.
Psalms 37:17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.
Psalms 37:18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.
Psalms 37:19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.
Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.


Psalms 145:20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.


Psalms 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.


Isaiah 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.
Isaiah 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.

Isaiah 1:29 For they shall be ashamed of the oaks which ye have desired, and ye shall be confounded for the gardens that ye have chosen.
Isaiah 1:30 For ye shall be as an oak whose leaf fadeth, and as a garden that hath no water.
Isaiah 1:31 And the strong shall be as tow, and the maker of it as a spark, and they shall both burn together, and none shall quench them.



2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;



Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Hebrews 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Hebrews 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


Jeremiah 6:27 I have set thee for a tower and a fortress among my people, that thou mayest know and try their way.
Jeremiah 6:28 They are all grievous revolters, walking with slanders: they are brass and iron; they are all corrupters.
Jeremiah 6:29 The bellows are burned, the lead is consumed of the fire; the founder melteth in vain: for the wicked are not plucked away.
Jeremiah 6:30 Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the LORD hath rejected them.

Why are they wicked?

Jeremiah 6:27 I have set thee for a tower and a fortress among my people, that thou mayest know and try their way.
Jeremiah 6:28 They are all grievous revolters, walking with slanders: they are brass and iron; they are all corrupters.
Jeremiah 6:29 The bellows are burned, the lead is consumed of the fire; the founder melteth in vain: for the wicked are not plucked away.
Jeremiah 6:30 Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the LORD hath rejected them.





They are corrupt and God has rejected them.





Psalms 37:16 A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked.
Psalms 37:17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.
Psalms 37:18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.
Psalms 37:19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.
Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.



The righteous ones will be saved but those unrighteous will be consumed away.


2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

They wouldn't receive the truth to be saved so they shall be destroyed!

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.



Those that had pleasure in unrighteousness and received not the truth shall perish and be damned.


http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-b...gs=2851&page=



Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


1) correction, punishment, penalty

The lexicon there says the word punishment in this verse means "correction, punishment, penalty" not firery torment, and no not death either. As I have been saying, the kind of punishment inflicted is unnamed in this verse but is given many places elsewhere as both death and destruction.



The righteous are not sinless but they repent and love God and believe upon Christ and that is counted righteous and though all are wicked in some sense, it is only those who love unrighteousness, who do not love God, who don't repent and don't follow Christ that shall be destroyed.


Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.



The way to destruction is wide and many will be destroyed. FEW will find the way to life. Read it more than once if you don't believe this. Christ said it and it is true.



Don't listen to those that say most or all will be saved and receive eternal life. It is a lie, even the same old lie.



"Ye shall surely not die."



Satan said that sin would not lead to death and he lied. Now we have a doctrine that also teaches that a life of sin will not lead to eternal death.



It is the same lie on a grander, more devious scale.
 

Butch5

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ATP said:
What are your thoughts on Isa 14:9.
I think it's just figurative language. In the same passage there is the earth rejoicing, Trees rejoicing and singing, and Hell is provoke. Obviously this is figurative language. Also when the passage speaks of the kings it says they rise from their thrones. Do we really believe that the kings of the earth have thrones in Hades? Even those who believe the wicked are tortured say the wicked as suffering. They don't say they're enthroned in Hades.
 

ATP

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Butch5 said:
I think it's just figurative language. In the same passage there is the earth rejoicing, Trees rejoicing and singing, and Hell is provoke. Obviously this is figurative language. Also when the passage speaks of the kings it says they rise from their thrones. Do we really believe that the kings of the earth have thrones in Hades? Even those who believe the wicked are tortured say the wicked as suffering. They don't say they're enthroned in Hades.
Good point.
 

Guestman

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OzSpen said:
ewq,


Biblically, we need some clarification:


  • The words "soul" and "spirit" can be used interchangeably.
In John 12:27, Jesus said, "Now is my soul (psuche) troubled, while in a similar context in the next chapter he said, "Jesus was troubled in his spirit (pneuma) [John 13:21]" This hardly means that Jesus "life force" (breath) was troubled.

  • At death, the "soul" or "spirit" departs.
When Rachel died, the Bible records: "Her soul (nephesh) was departing [she had died]" (Gen. 35:18), but Eccl. 12:7 records that at death, "the spirit (ruach) returns to God who gave it." This hardly means that one's "life force" (breath) was returning to God.

  • A human being is said to consist of either "body and soul" or "body and spirit."
In Matt. 10: 28, we read, "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul (psuche). Rather fear him who can destroy both soul (psuche) and body in hell" (ESV). It seems clear from this verse that "soul" refers to the part of the person that lives beyond death. If the "soul" was only a "life force", it could be killed. That's not what Jesus said. His authoritative view was that the "soul" cannot be killed. It cannot die.

But when Paul wants to deliver an erring brother over to Satan, he said that it was "for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit (pneuma) may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" (1 Cor. 5:5).

Therefore, in both OT and NT, "soul" and "spirit" can be used interchangeably.

So, what does "spirit" mean when applied to a human being, in the light of the above scriptural explanation? Most people, Christian and non-Christian, believe that there is an immaterial part to human beings, a soul / spirit that will live on beyond the "life force" (or breath) that has left the body.

There are occasions in the Bible when "spirit" is used to refer to the breath of animals or human beings, but the above verses show that spirit / soul refers to the immaterial part of the human unity (body and soul/spirit) that goes to be with Christ and cannot be killed.

This soul can sin. This is implied from verses such as 1 Peter 1:22, "Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart" (ESV). Surely this does not refer to breath or life force!

Let's get no more complicated than the simplicity of what the Bible states that the spirit of a human being goes to God at death and it cannot be killed. Simply: the spirit/soul of a human being is the immaterial part of us that survives death.

Perhaps we are on the same biblical path.

Oz
Can the words "soul" and "spirit" be used interchangeably ? Though the churches teach that they are the same, using them interchangeably, the Bible does not. At Genesis 2:7, of the first man Adam, it said: "And the Lord God formed the man out of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man came to be a living soul".(Gen 2:7, KJV)


Thus, Adam came to be a living soul upon having the breath of life placed within him so that his cells came to life. He now functioned as a living soul. Before this act, he was a dead soul. The Genesis account does not say that a soul was placed within Adam, but that he became "a living soul".


When a doctor receives his degree in medical practice, he does not possess a doctor but rather he now becomes a doctor. Likewise of us as souls, we are a soul, with the Hebrew word for soul as nephesh, that literally means "breather", for we breathe just as animals and insects also do. They are also called souls at Numbers 31:28.(KJV)


And at Deuteronomy 12:20, Moses told the nation of Israel: "When the Lord thy God shall enlarge thy border, as he hath promised thee, and thou shalt say, I will eat flesh, because thy soul longeth to eat flesh; thou mayest eat flesh, whatsoever thy soul lusteth after."(KJV) Hence, here it is noted that the soul longs for and eats flesh or meat.


And at Leviticus 5:2, it says: "Or if a soul touch any unclean thing, whether it be a carcase of an unclean beast, or a carcase of unclean cattle, or the carcase of unclean creeping things, and if it be hidden from him; he also shall be unclean, and guilty." What touched an "unclean thing" ? A soul or person.


And at Jeremiah 2:34, it says of the two tribe kingdom of Judah: "Also in thy skirts is found the blood of the souls of the poor innocents: I have not found it by secret search, but upon all these."(KJV) Thence, here it shows that the soul has blood. So what logical conclusion can we draw from what has been examined so far ? That the soul is us as a person, with all our desires, from eating, to touching something to breathing to having blood.


So when Genesis 35:18 says of Rachel that her ' soul departed ', it does not mean that something shadowy separated from her body, but that she as a living soul ended, that she expired, that she no longer was a "breather", for we quit breathing when we die.


And at Matthew 10:28, Jesus established that the soul can be destroyed as well the apostle Peter, who said concerning the "Prophet" at Deuteronomy 18: "And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet (which proved to be Jesus Christ), shall be destroyed from among the people."(Acts 3:23, KJV)


Of the word spirit, at John 3, Jesus says: "The wind (Greek pneuma) bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.(Greek pneumatos; lemma or base word pneuma)"(John 3:8, KJV)


Jesus used the Greek word pneuma for both "wind" and "spirit" and of which comes from the Greek pne'o, meaning “breathe or blow". The Hebrew ru'ach (spirit) is believed to come from a root having the same meaning. Ru'ach and pneu'ma, then, basically mean “breath” but have extended meanings beyond that basic sense.


Hence, they can mean wind; the vital force in living creatures; one’s spirit; spirit persons, including God and his angelic creatures; and God’s active force, or holy spirit. Though soul and spirit cannot be used interchangeably, they are interconnected, for without spirit or active force in a person, that person dies and becomes a dead soul and is no longer a breather.


Psalms 104 says of all material life: "When you hide your face, they are disturbed. If you take away their spirit (or life force), they die and return to the dust. If you send out your (holy) spirit, they are created".(Ps 104:29, 30) All these meanings have something in common: They all refer to that which is invisible to human sight and which gives evidence of force in motion. Such invisible force is capable of producing visible effects.


Proverbs 18 says: "A person's spirit (driving force or will to live and invisible) can sustain him through illness, but who can bear a crushed spirit (driving force or will to live) ?"(Prov 18:14) Of Pharaoh, it said concerning his disturbing dreams: "And it came to pass in the morning that his spirit was troubled; and he sent and called for all the magicians of Egypt, and all the wise men thereof:"(Gen 41:8, KJV) Thus, the spirit is that which gives life, also a driving force moving us to do something or nothing when "crushed", being accurately described as an active force within souls or breathers, for it is never latent or dormant.


And of Jehovah God's holy spirit, it is an unseen force that he used to create the universe and all life (Ps 104:30), and of which true Christians can request to have.(Luke 11:13)
 

OzSpen

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Guestman said:
Can the words "soul" and "spirit" be used interchangeably ? Though the churches teach that they are the same, using them interchangeably, the Bible does not. At Genesis 2:7, of the first man Adam, it said: "And the Lord God formed the man out of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man came to be a living soul".(Gen 2:7, KJV)

Thus, Adam came to be a living soul upon having the breath of life placed within him so that his cells came to life. He now functioned as a living soul. Before this act, he was a dead soul. The Genesis account does not say that a soul was placed within Adam, but that he became "a living soul".

When a doctor receives his degree in medical practice, he does not possess a doctor but rather he now becomes a doctor. Likewise of us as souls, we are a soul, with the Hebrew word for soul as nephesh, that literally means "breather", for we breathe just as animals and insects also do. They are also called souls at Numbers 31:28.(KJV)

And at Deuteronomy 12:20, Moses told the nation of Israel: "When the Lord thy God shall enlarge thy border, as he hath promised thee, and thou shalt say, I will eat flesh, because thy soul longeth to eat flesh; thou mayest eat flesh, whatsoever thy soul lusteth after."(KJV) Hence, here it is noted that the soul longs for and eats flesh or meat.

And at Leviticus 5:2, it says: "Or if a soul touch any unclean thing, whether it be a carcase of an unclean beast, or a carcase of unclean cattle, or the carcase of unclean creeping things, and if it be hidden from him; he also shall be unclean, and guilty." What touched an "unclean thing" ? A soul or person.

And at Jeremiah 2:34, it says of the two tribe kingdom of Judah: "Also in thy skirts is found the blood of the souls of the poor innocents: I have not found it by secret search, but upon all these."(KJV) Thence, here it shows that the soul has blood. So what logical conclusion can we draw from what has been examined so far ? That the soul is us as a person, with all our desires, from eating, to touching something to breathing to having blood.

So when Genesis 35:18 says of Rachel that her ' soul departed ', it does not mean that something shadowy separated from her body, but that she as a living soul ended, that she expired, that she no longer was a "breather", for we quit breathing when we die.

And at Matthew 10:28, Jesus established that the soul can be destroyed as well the apostle Peter, who said concerning the "Prophet" at Deuteronomy 18: "And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet (which proved to be Jesus Christ), shall be destroyed from among the people."(Acts 3:23, KJV)

Of the word spirit, at John 3, Jesus says: "The wind (Greek pneuma) bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.(Greek pneumatos; lemma or base word pneuma)"(John 3:8, KJV)

Jesus used the Greek word pneuma for both "wind" and "spirit" and of which comes from the Greek pne'o, meaning “breathe or blow". The Hebrew ru'ach (spirit) is believed to come from a root having the same meaning. Ru'ach and pneu'ma, then, basically mean “breath” but have extended meanings beyond that basic sense.

Hence, they can mean wind; the vital force in living creatures; one’s spirit; spirit persons, including God and his angelic creatures; and God’s active force, or holy spirit. Though soul and spirit cannot be used interchangeably, they are interconnected, for without spirit or active force in a person, that person dies and becomes a dead soul and is no longer a breather.

Psalms 104 says of all material life: "When you hide your face, they are disturbed. If you take away their spirit (or life force), they die and return to the dust. If you send out your (holy) spirit, they are created".(Ps 104:29, 30) All these meanings have something in common: They all refer to that which is invisible to human sight and which gives evidence of force in motion. Such invisible force is capable of producing visible effects.

Proverbs 18 says: "A person's spirit (driving force or will to live and invisible) can sustain him through illness, but who can bear a crushed spirit (driving force or will to live) ?"(Prov 18:14) Of Pharaoh, it said concerning his disturbing dreams: "And it came to pass in the morning that his spirit was troubled; and he sent and called for all the magicians of Egypt, and all the wise men thereof:"(Gen 41:8, KJV) Thus, the spirit is that which gives life, also a driving force moving us to do something or nothing when "crushed", being accurately described as an active force within souls or breathers, for it is never latent or dormant.

And of Jehovah God's holy spirit, it is an unseen force that he used to create the universe and all life (Ps 104:30), and of which true Christians can request to have.(Luke 11:13)
What is the nature of a human being?

How many parts are there to a human being? Most Christians and many non-Christians admit that there is some immaterial part of a person that may be called “soul” or “spirit.” But as for agreement on what soul/spirit means, there is not much consensus. Here, emphasis will be placed on what the Christian Bible states.

There are two main positions adopted within the Christian community: trichotomy and dichotomy. Simply stated, trichotomy is the view that human beings are made up of three parts, body, soul and spirit. Wayne Grudem (1994, p. 472) states that

though this has been a common view in popular evangelical Bible teaching, there are few scholarly defenses of it today. According to many trichotomists, man’s soul includes his intellect, his emotions, and his will. . . Man’s spirit is a higher faculty in man that comes alive when a person becomes a Christian (see Rom. 8:10: “If Christ is in you, although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness”). The spirit of a person then would be that part of him or her that most directly worships and prays to God (see John 4:24; Phil. 3:3).

By dichotomy, is meant that a person consist of two parts, body and soul/spirit. The “spirit” and “soul” are not separate entities but are terms that are used interchangeably in Scripture to refer to the immaterial part of a human being that lives in the human body.

Dichotomy

What is the biblical support for dichotomy? The Scriptures sometimes describe a human being as “body and soul” (Matt. 6:25; 10:28). Other times a person is “body and spirit” (Eccl. 12:7; 1 Cor. 5:3, 5). At death, sometimes it is described as the soul departing (Gen. 35:18; 1 Kings 17:21; Acts 15:26). At other times, it is the spirit that is given up (Ps. 31:5; Luke 23:46; Acts 7:59). When it comes to explaining the immaterial element of the dead, it is called both soul and spirit (1 Peter 3:19; Heb. 12:23; Rev. 6:9; 20:4).

Thus, in OT and NT, “soul” and “spirit” are used interchangeably to differentiate the immaterial part of a human being. This leads Berkhof to conclude that “the Bible points to two, and only two, constitutional elements in the nature of man, namely, body and spirit or soul” (1939/1941, p. 194).

Trichotomy

Wait a minute! Could I be jumping to conclusions too quickly? Aren’t there two Bible verses that specifically speak of body, soul and spirit? These are:

a. First Thess. 5:23 , “Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

When we exegete the Scripture we need to be aware of the need to compare Scripture with Scripture and interpret according to the way this teaching is usually represented in Scripture. This is called the analogy of Scripture.
Because soul and spirit are here beside each other, this does not prove that they are two distinct and different substances. Compare a passage such as Matt. 22:37, “And he said to him, ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'” This does not mean that Jesus regarded the heart, soul and mind as three distinct substances in the human being. Compare Mark 12:30, “And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.” Grudem notes,

If we go on the principle that such lists of terms tell us about more parts to man, then if we also add spirit to this list (and perhaps body as well), we would have five or six parts to man! But that is certainly a false conclusion. It is far better to understand Jesus as simply piling up roughly synonymous terms for emphasis to demonstrate that we must love God with all of our being (1994, p. 479).

We also need to note that the very Paul who wrote 1 Thess. 5: 23, also wrote Rom. 8:10, 1 Cor. 5:5; 7:34; 2 Cor. 7:1; Eph. 2:3 and Col. 2;5. In these latter six verses, Paul affirms that there are only two different substances in a human being and not three. The analogy of Scripture helps us interpret 1 Thess. 5:23 to support the dichotomous view. In 1 Thess. 5:23, Paul could be simply using synonyms for emphasis to remind us that, whether our immaterial part is called soul or spirit, he wants God to sanctify Christians wholly to the day of Christ.​
b. Heb. 4:12, “For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.”

From this verse, is it possible for it to mean that the sword of Scripture is able to divide soul from spirit? It is best to understand this passage from the analogy of Scripture. The author is not trying to divide soul from spirit, otherwise we would have to separate these elements: soul, spirit, joints, marrow, thoughts and intentions.

Based on our understanding of 1 Thess. 5:23, it is best to understand that human beings are made of inward parts that cannot hide from the penetrating power of the sword of the word of God – Scripture. If we want to call the inward part of human beings heart, soul, spirit, and mind, the word of God is able to penetrate and to divide the thoughts and intentions.

Norman Geisler explains:

Many expositors take this apparent contrast between soul and spirit to be a figure of speech describing the power of the Word of God. It is so powerful that it can, as it were, divide the indivisible. In this sense, rather than being a proof of trichotomy, Hebrews 4:12 actually is evidence for the unity (but not identity) of human nature (2004, p. 64).

F. F. Bruce agrees with A. B. Davidson’s understanding of the words of Heb. 4:12: “piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit of both joints and marrow” is a “rhetorical accumulation of terms to express the whole mental nature of man on all its sides” (in Bruce 1964, p. 82).

Therefore, R. C. Sproul is justified in concluding that “orthodox theology rejects the trichotomous view of human beings” (1992, p. 134).

The above is from my article , 'Soul Sleep: A Refutation ,where you also will find the bibliographic references.

Oz
 

Butch5

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OzSpen said:
What is the nature of a human being?

How many parts are there to a human being? Most Christians and many non-Christians admit that there is some immaterial part of a person that may be called “soul” or “spirit.” But as for agreement on what soul/spirit means, there is not much consensus. Here, emphasis will be placed on what the Christian Bible states.

There are two main positions adopted within the Christian community: trichotomy and dichotomy. Simply stated, trichotomy is the view that human beings are made up of three parts, body, soul and spirit. Wayne Grudem (1994, p. 472) states that

though this has been a common view in popular evangelical Bible teaching, there are few scholarly defenses of it today. According to many trichotomists, man’s soul includes his intellect, his emotions, and his will. . . Man’s spirit is a higher faculty in man that comes alive when a person becomes a Christian (see Rom. 8:10: “If Christ is in you, although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness”). The spirit of a person then would be that part of him or her that most directly worships and prays to God (see John 4:24; Phil. 3:3).

By dichotomy, is meant that a person consist of two parts, body and soul/spirit. The “spirit” and “soul” are not separate entities but are terms that are used interchangeably in Scripture to refer to the immaterial part of a human being that lives in the human body.

Dichotomy

What is the biblical support for dichotomy? The Scriptures sometimes describe a human being as “body and soul” (Matt. 6:25; 10:28). Other times a person is “body and spirit” (Eccl. 12:7; 1 Cor. 5:3, 5). At death, sometimes it is described as the soul departing (Gen. 35:18; 1 Kings 17:21; Acts 15:26). At other times, it is the spirit that is given up (Ps. 31:5; Luke 23:46; Acts 7:59). When it comes to explaining the immaterial element of the dead, it is called both soul and spirit (1 Peter 3:19; Heb. 12:23; Rev. 6:9; 20:4).

Thus, in OT and NT, “soul” and “spirit” are used interchangeably to differentiate the immaterial part of a human being. This leads Berkhof to conclude that “the Bible points to two, and only two, constitutional elements in the nature of man, namely, body and spirit or soul” (1939/1941, p. 194).

Trichotomy

Wait a minute! Could I be jumping to conclusions too quickly? Aren’t there two Bible verses that specifically speak of body, soul and spirit? These are:

a. First Thess. 5:23 , “Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

When we exegete the Scripture we need to be aware of the need to compare Scripture with Scripture and interpret according to the way this teaching is usually represented in Scripture. This is called the analogy of Scripture.
Because soul and spirit are here beside each other, this does not prove that they are two distinct and different substances. Compare a passage such as Matt. 22:37, “And he said to him, ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'” This does not mean that Jesus regarded the heart, soul and mind as three distinct substances in the human being. Compare Mark 12:30, “And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.” Grudem notes,

If we go on the principle that such lists of terms tell us about more parts to man, then if we also add spirit to this list (and perhaps body as well), we would have five or six parts to man! But that is certainly a false conclusion. It is far better to understand Jesus as simply piling up roughly synonymous terms for emphasis to demonstrate that we must love God with all of our being (1994, p. 479).

We also need to note that the very Paul who wrote 1 Thess. 5: 23, also wrote Rom. 8:10, 1 Cor. 5:5; 7:34; 2 Cor. 7:1; Eph. 2:3 and Col. 2;5. In these latter six verses, Paul affirms that there are only two different substances in a human being and not three. The analogy of Scripture helps us interpret 1 Thess. 5:23 to support the dichotomous view. In 1 Thess. 5:23, Paul could be simply using synonyms for emphasis to remind us that, whether our immaterial part is called soul or spirit, he wants God to sanctify Christians wholly to the day of Christ.

b. Heb. 4:12, “For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.”

From this verse, is it possible for it to mean that the sword of Scripture is able to divide soul from spirit? It is best to understand this passage from the analogy of Scripture. The author is not trying to divide soul from spirit, otherwise we would have to separate these elements: soul, spirit, joints, marrow, thoughts and intentions.

Based on our understanding of 1 Thess. 5:23, it is best to understand that human beings are made of inward parts that cannot hide from the penetrating power of the sword of the word of God – Scripture. If we want to call the inward part of human beings heart, soul, spirit, and mind, the word of God is able to penetrate and to divide the thoughts and intentions.

Norman Geisler explains:

Many expositors take this apparent contrast between soul and spirit to be a figure of speech describing the power of the Word of God. It is so powerful that it can, as it were, divide the indivisible. In this sense, rather than being a proof of trichotomy, Hebrews 4:12 actually is evidence for the unity (but not identity) of human nature (2004, p. 64).

F. F. Bruce agrees with A. B. Davidson’s understanding of the words of Heb. 4:12: “piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit of both joints and marrow” is a “rhetorical accumulation of terms to express the whole mental nature of man on all its sides” (in Bruce 1964, p. 82).

Therefore, R. C. Sproul is justified in concluding that “orthodox theology rejects the trichotomous view of human beings” (1992, p. 134).

The above is from my article , 'Soul Sleep: A Refutation ,where you also will find the bibliographic references.

Oz
Oz, how have you refuted the doctrine when you've presented the opinions of other men? It is the Scriptures, not the scholars that are the final authority. Granted, everyone interprets the Scriptures, however,must because these men says something it doesn't mean they're correct. You're quoting them suggests to me that in your opinion their thinking carries some weight. While I'm open to hearing what they say when they clearly violate Scripture and logic I will reject them.
 

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Butch5 said:
Oz, how have you refuted the doctrine when you've presented the opinions of other men? It is the Scriptures, not the scholars that are the final authority. Granted, everyone interprets the Scriptures, however,must because these men says something it doesn't mean they're correct. You're quoting them suggests to me that in your opinion their thinking carries some weight. While I'm open to hearing what they say when they clearly violate Scripture and logic I will reject them.
That's a red herring fallacy. You have not dealt with the exposition I presented. Why? Because you have stated on this forum that you don't accept this view of human beings having an unseen soul that lives beyond death.

Mate, I've refuted your doctrine by presenting biblical evidence and then supported it by quoting Bible teachers who have said it better than I could. Why have I cited Bible teachers? Because God has given the gift of teachers,

to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. 16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work (Eph 4:12-16 NIV).
If you are open to what these scholars say, then quit complaining about what I wrote by citing such scholars.

Oz
 

Butch5

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OzSpen said:
That's a red herring fallacy. You have not dealt with the exposition I presented. Why? Because you have stated on this forum that you don't accept this view of human beings having an unseen soul that lives beyond death.


Mate, I've refuted your doctrine by presenting biblical evidence and then supported it by quoting Bible teachers who have said it better than I could. Why have I cited Bible teachers? Because God has given the gift of teachers,


If you are open to what these scholars say, then quit complaining about what I wrote by citing such scholars.

Oz

[/QUOTE]Once again Oz, a fallacy is an error in reasoning. My statement was an argument it was questions your statement.

Once again Oz, for someone who demands logic from others you should demand the same of yourself. You've not refuted anything I've said. All you've done is post a few passages from which you've inferred the idea that some sort of disembodied consciousness exists. Then you posted the words of some who agree with you. That's hardly a refutation. You've yet to show where your idea is taught in Scripture.

You're quoting scholars does nothing more than show us what they believe. How about I post some scholars that teach about Purgatory, will you believe it's true?
 

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“It seems odd, that certain men who talk so much of what the Holy Spirit reveals to themselves, should think so little of what He has revealed to others.”

Charles Spurgeon
 

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Butch5 said:
Once again Oz, a fallacy is an error in reasoning. My statement was an argument it was questions your statement.

Once again Oz, for someone who demands logic from others you should demand the same of yourself. You've not refuted anything I've said. All you've done is post a few passages from which you've inferred the idea that some sort of disembodied consciousness exists. Then you posted the words of some who agree with you. That's hardly a refutation. You've yet to show where your idea is taught in Scripture.

You're quoting scholars does nothing more than show us what they believe. How about I post some scholars that teach about Purgatory, will you believe it's true?
'Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord' (2 Cor 5:8 ESV).

I, with Paul, at death will be 'away from the body' - my body will be rotting in the grave and I (the unseen part of ME) will be 'at home with the Lord'.

That's what happens to the believer at death and that's where I will be. I expect it to be not many years from now.

Oz