How To Get To Heaven When You Die

OzSpen said:

ATP,

There is not a word in the context of 2 Cor 5:8 (ESV) that gives that meaning. That context in 2 Cor 5:6, 8 (ESV) is that 'while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord ... and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord'. There is not a word in this context about being 'present with the Lord' meaning present with Jesus in the resurrection body at the Eschaton. Not a word!

Instead, we KNOW from these Scriptures in context that if we are alive in the body, i.e. 'at home in the body', then 'we are away from the Lord'. To be at home with the Lord is to be away from the body - at death, not the second coming.

Seems to me that your interpretation imposes your understanding on the text.

Oz

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Or maybe it's just that he's taking into account the historical setting and what Paul as a Pharisee believed rather than imposing a Greek philosophical concept on the passage. You see, we all bring presuppositions to the text, the question is are they correct. If we are to understand Paul we have to know how Paul thought. We know that Paul didn't believe in disembodied conscious existence because he states that if there is no resurrection then those who have died in Christ have perished. However, we do know from Scripture that Paul had a hope of resurrection. Therefore, it is logical to conclude that absent from his present condition would expect to be at the resurrection with Christ.

OzSpen said:

I addressed Paul's words in 1 Cor 15 in my PhD dissertation and it was passed by my 3 examiners (dissertation-only in the British system). What I exegeted there is NOT contrary to 2 Cor 5:8. You seem to be creating a straw man fallacy. Here you claim that my position is contrary to Paul's words in 1 Cor 15 but YOU GIVE NOT ONE EXAMPLE to demonstrate this apparent conflict. I'm not about to take your generalised statements as affirmations of truth when you give no example of what you are talking about from 1 Cor 15.

Your response here is another example of how you and I cannot have a logical conversation when you use a straw man fallacy.

Oz

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No example? Oz, I have asked you time after time to show me where Scripture "teaches" that the dead are live. All you've done it present passages of Scriptures from which you've "INFERRED" the idea that people are alive when they are dead. Since you've presented passages from which you've "INFERRED" that idea your argument is the fallacy of begging the question.

Also Known as: Circular Reasoning, Reasoning in a Circle, Petitio Principii.

Description of Begging the Question
Begging the Question is a fallacy in which the premises include the claim that the conclusion is true or (directly or indirectly) assume that the conclusion is true. This sort of "reasoning" typically has the following form.

1. Premises in which the truth of the conclusion is claimed or the truth of the conclusion is assumed (either directly or indirectly).
2. Claim C (the conclusion) is true.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because simply assuming that the conclusion is true (directly or indirectly) in the premises does not constitute evidence for that conclusion. Obviously, simply assuming a claim is true does not serve as evidence for that claim. This is especially clear in particularly blatant cases: "X is true. The evidence for this claim is that X is true."
Some cases of question begging are fairly blatant, while others can be extremely subtle.

Examples of Begging the Question

Bill: "God must exist."
Jill: "How do you know."
Bill: "Because the Bible says so."
Jill: "Why should I believe the Bible?"
Bill: "Because the Bible was written by God."

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the-question.html


In the passages you quote, you assume the people are alive when they are dead and use that as an example that people are live when they are dead. That is Begging the question.

Your premise that people are alive when the are dead has not been proven. Begging the question does not prove they are alive.


I think your claim that I've not given an example is disingenuous. I've stated several times what I understand Paul to be saying in the passage in 1 Cor 15. Through this discussion you've indicated repeatedly that the dead are not dead but go to be with the Lord. That is contradictory what I said Paul was saying in 1 Cor 15. So, I have given an example of how your words and Paul's words contradict. Now, if you believe that I have misunderstood Paul you are entitled to point that out and show me how I've misunderstood him. However, you haven't done that.

Butch5 said:

Oz, you've simply restated your position.

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No, I sought to demonstrate my position from Scripture. Mine is not a personally invented interpretation, but based on the exegesis of Scripture.

Butch5 said:

No example? Oz, I have asked you time after time to show me where Scripture "teaches" that the dead are live. All you've done it present passages of Scriptures from which you've "INFERRED" the idea that people are alive when they are dead.

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No matter how much evidence I provide you, you will not receive it because you seem to have a predisposition against accepting ti.

Let me try one more time to provide biblical evidence that those who have died and their bodies are in graves are alive.


'And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell [Gehenna]' (Matt 10:28 ESV).

In the story of the rich man and Lazarus told in Luke 16:19-31 (ESV), we are told that the rich man died and was buried (16:22) and he was 'in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus by his side' (16:23; also 16:24, 25, 28). That is, the rich man at death was alive, experiencing torment and seeing both Abraham and Lazarus'. After death, the rich man 'called out' to Father Abraham (16:24). He told Father Abraham: 'I am in anguish in this flame' (16:24). To be able to do this, he had to be alive after death.

Abraham spoke back to the rich man (16:25). In addition there was a 'great chasm' between the rich man and Abraham, i.e. both Abraham and the rich man are alive and able to speak with one another (16:26). The rich man is so alive after death in Hades that he pleads with Abraham to send Lazarus to his 5 brothers so that he can warn them about what is happening to the rich man (16:28). Abraham replied that they have Moses and the prophets to hear. The rich man pleads with father Abraham to send someone from the dead (who are alive) to urge them to repent. Abraham says that if they don't hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead (16:29-31). All this bartering is going on because the rich man and Abraham are alive after death.

Do you want further evidence of people being alive and having conversations when in Sheol? Take a read of:

• Ezekiel 32:21 (ESV): 'The mighty chiefs shall speak of them, with their helpers, out of the midst of Sheol: "They have come down, they lie still, the uncircumcised, slain by the sword"'.
• Isaiah 14:9-20 (ESV)

'Sheol beneath is stirred up
to meet you when you come;
it rouses the shades to greet you,
all who were leaders of the earth;
it raises from their thrones
all who were kings of the nations.
10 All of them will answer
and say to you:
‘You too have become as weak as we!
You have become like us!’
11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol,
the sound of your harps;
maggots are laid as a bed beneath you,
and worms are your covers.

12 “How you are fallen from heaven,
O Day Star, son of Dawn!
How you are cut down to the ground,
you who laid the nations low!
13 You said in your heart,
‘I will ascend to heaven;
above the stars of God
I will set my throne on high;
I will sit on the mount of assembly
in the far reaches of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.’
15 But you are brought down to Sheol,
to the far reaches of the pit.
16 Those who see you will stare at you
and ponder over you:
‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
who shook kingdoms,
17 who made the world like a desert
and overthrew its cities,
who did not let his prisoners go home?’
18 All the kings of the nations lie in glory,
each in his own tomb;
19 but you are cast out, away from your grave,
like a loathed branch,
clothed with the slain, those pierced by the sword,
who go down to the stones of the pit,
like a dead body trampled underfoot.
20 You will not be joined with them in burial,
because you have destroyed your land,
you have slain your people.


“May the offspring of evildoers
nevermore be named!

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It is obvious that conversations cannot take place in the grave with a dead body. A dead person does not communicate with another dead corpse. There is no mention in the OT of there being conversations in the queber (the grave). But there are conversations in Sheol because the dead were alive in Sheol according to the OT.

Oz

Butch5 said:

Or maybe it's just that he's taking into account the historical setting and what Paul as a Pharisee believed rather than imposing a Greek philosophical concept on the passage. You see, we all bring presuppositions to the text, the question is are they correct. If we are to understand Paul we have to know how Paul thought. We know that Paul didn't believe in disembodied conscious existence because he states that if there is no resurrection then those who have died in Christ have perished. However, we do know from Scripture that Paul had a hope of resurrection. Therefore, it is logical to conclude that absent from his present condition would expect to be at the resurrection with Christ.

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'Or maybe....' is not exegesis.

You state: 'We know that Paul didn't believe in disembodied conscious existence....' I've already refuted that view in post #457 amd 2 Cor 5:6-7 (ESV).

If I am to understand Paul's thought, I understand him through what he has written and his background as a Pharisee. However, I don't invent what I think he understood as a Pharisee.

I was NOT discussing the resurrection at the second coming, as you want to discuss, I was discussing life after death - absent from the body and present with the Lord (2 Cor 5:8). I most assuredly believe in what the Bible teaches about the resurrection, including that blessed passage of 1 Cor 15.

You stated: 'Therefore, it is logical to conclude that absent from his present condition would expect to be at the resurrection with Christ.' No, it is not logical as that is not what I'm discussing. I'm discussing what happens at death and beyond - life after death.

Oz

OzSpen said:

'Or maybe....' is not exegesis.

You state: 'We know that Paul didn't believe in disembodied conscious existence....' I've already refuted that view in post #457 amd 2 Cor 5:6-7 (ESV).

If I am to understand Paul's thought, I understand him through what he has written and his background as a Pharisee. However, I don't invent what I think he understood as a Pharisee.

I was NOT discussing the resurrection at the second coming, as you want to discuss, I was discussing life after death - absent from the body and present with the Lord (2 Cor 5:8). I most assuredly believe in what the Bible teaches about the resurrection, including that blessed passage of 1 Cor 15.

You stated: 'Therefore, it is logical to conclude that absent from his present condition would expect to be at the resurrection with Christ.' No, it is not logical as that is not what I'm discussing. I'm discussing what happens at death and beyond - life after death.

Oz

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I understand what you're discussing, however, that is not what Paul is discussing. Even in the passage where you claim he's addressing life after death, he is addressing the resurrection.


13 And since we have the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, "I believed and therefore I spoke," we also believe and therefore speak,
14 knowing that He who raised up the Lord Jesus will also raise us up with Jesus, and will present us with you.
15 For all things are for your sakes, that grace, having spread through the many, may cause thanksgiving to abound to the glory of God.
16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day.
17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory,
18 while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.
1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven,
3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked.
4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.
5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.
(2 Cor. 4:13-5:9 NKJ)


The passage is about the resurrection and receiving that building from God. There is nothing here about a disembodied consciousness.

Also as I've shown Paul's understanding of life after death is that there is nothing but the resurrection.

12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.
14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up-- if in fact the dead do not rise.
16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.
17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. (1 Cor. 15:12-18 NKJ)

It doesn't sound like Paul is explaining a blissful existence in Heaven with the Lord. He said if there is no resurrection then those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. He doesn't say they are with the Lord. These are not my words, they are Paul's. To claim that in 2 Cor 5 Paul is talking about a disembodied consciousness is to contradict what he has stated here.

The formattng isn't working properly so my response is in red.

OzSpen, on 04 Sept 2015 - 11:07 PM, said:

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No matter how much evidence I provide you, you will not receive it because you seem to have a predisposition against accepting ti.

Let me try one more time to provide biblical evidence that those who have died and their bodies are in graves are alive.

'And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell [Gehenna]' (Matt 10:28 ESV).


How does this prove your Point. These people are alive. Jesus is telling them not to fear those who can kill the body. Obviously these are men that can kill the body. However, they cannot kill the life. Why is that? Because God is the only one who can ultimately end life. We read in the Scriptures that one day all who have ever lived will be raised from the dead. So, God is going put that life (soul) back into every person who has ever lived. So, those men who could kill the body didn't ultimately end that life (soul). However, when God ends that Life (soul) it will never be restored, it will be destroyed.

However, you're presupposing that it is possible for a soul to live apart from a body (that has not been proven). Additionally, even if we grant that a soul could exist apart from a body, this passage says nothing about that soul being alive. It's actually referring to the destruction of that soul, not the living of it.

In the story of the rich man and Lazarus told in Luke 16:19-31 (ESV), we are told that the rich man died and was buried (16:22) and he was 'in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus by his side' (16:23; also 16:24, 25, 28). That is, the rich man at death was alive, experiencing torment and seeing both Abraham and Lazarus'. After death, the rich man 'called out' to Father Abraham (16:24). He told Father Abraham: 'I am in anguish in this flame' (16:24). To be able to do this, he had to be alive after death.

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Abraham spoke back to the rich man (16:25). In addition there was a 'great chasm' between the rich man and Abraham, i.e. both Abraham and the rich man are alive and able to speak with one another (16:26). The rich man is so alive after death in Hades that he pleads with Abraham to send Lazarus to his 5 brothers so that he can warn them about what is happening to the rich man (16:28). Abraham replied that they have Moses and the prophets to hear. The rich man pleads with father Abraham to send someone from the dead (who are alive) to urge them to repent. Abraham says that if they don't hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead (16:29-31). All this bartering is going on because the rich man and Abraham are alive after death.

You see Oz, this is why I say you haven't refuted anything. You present this passage as proof that the dead are alive. How do you know that? You've assumed that the dead are alive because you're read it in this parable. That is begging the question. This parable does teach us that the dead are alive or how that could happen. It simply assumes it to make that point that the parable is about. This parable could just as easily be a literary device. So, option 1 is, this is an actual event, option 2, this is a parable and figurative.

So, in order to use this passage as evidence you need to prove that it is an actual event and not a literary device and figurative. I would submit that this passage is a parable and not literal. There are several real problems with trying to say this is an actual event. We're given specific details about the rich man, so who is he? He is said to be suffering in a flame in Hades. However, we find that suffering in fire in the Scriptures occurs in Gehenna, not Hades. Jesus, who gave the parable, knew this as He was the one who warned about the fire of Gehenna. So, one has to ask why did Jesus say the rich man was in Hades in the flame rather than in Gehenna? I've only found one other place where Hades and fire are are spoken of together and the passage is a warning against Israel for turning away from God.

KJV Deuteronomy 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. (Deut. 32:22 KJV)

The fire burning in Hades is God's anger.

Another problem with a literal interpretation is the very claim made. It is said that it is a part of Lazarus and the rich man that leaves the body, yet in Hades they have that very thing, The rich man has, eyes, a tongue, a mouth, and sensory perception. Lazarus has a finger, Abraham, has a mouth. All of these are parts of the body, the very thing that they have supposedly just left behind in the grave.

Another question to be asked is, why is Jesus teaching the Pharisees? The parable was spoken to the Pharisees, not the disciples. Another question is why does Jesus bring up a series of condemnations along with this parable. This is what precedes the parable.

14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.
15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
16 "The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.
17 "And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.
18 "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery. (Lk. 16:14-18 NKJ)

Notice He is addressing the Pharisees. He tells them that the Law and the prophets were until John. At this point had John come? Yes, he had. So, Jesus is telling them that the Law has come to an end. That means the Levitical priesthood had come to an end. What happens at the end of something? It dies. So, right saying this Jesus goes into the parable about the dead men. Coincidence? I don't think so.

Another problem is that, if this was areal e vent, where is the context. Jesus had not been talking about the dead. Why in the middle of chastising the Pharisees would He stop and break into a teaching lesson. There had been nothing about the state of dead people, what reason would there be to suddenly just switch topics in the middle of Chastising someone.

Another thing to look at is that this parable is in a series of parables this. Jesus had been leading up this, having mentioned the "Lost son" and the "unfaithful steward" parables. Let me ask you, who was the "lost son"? It was Israel. Who was the "unfaithful Steward"? It was Israel. Do you see a pattern here? The next parable is Lazarus and the Rich Man.

I could on and on. There are so many reasons that this shouldn't be understood as an actual event but rather as a parable

Do you want further evidence of people being alive and having conversations when in Sheol? Take a read of:

Click to expand...

Ezekiel 32:21 (ESV): 'The mighty chiefs shall speak of them, with their helpers, out of the midst of Sheol: "They have come down, they lie still, the uncircumcised, slain by the sword"'.
Isaiah 14:9-20 (ESV)

It is obvious that conversations cannot take place in the grave with a dead body. A dead person does not communicate with another dead corpse. There is no mention in the OT of there being conversations in the queber (the grave). But there are conversations in Sheol because the dead were alive in Sheol according to the OT.

Once again Oz, these passages don't teach that the dead are alive. You've read the passage and concluded that the dead are alive. Again, this is begging the question. I ask again, if this literal or a literary device? You agree that dead bodied can't communicate. If that is so how do these supposed disembodied consciousnesses use swords, they have no body?

27 They do not lie with the mighty Who are fallen of the uncircumcised, Who have gone down to hell with their weapons of war; They have laid their swords under their heads, But their iniquities will be on their bones, Because of the terror of the mighty in the land of the living. (Ezek. 32:27 NKJ)
How does one carry weapons of war to sheol without a body? How would weapons get there anyway?
What the graves? If sheol is not the grave, but rather the place where the disembodied consciousness of the dead goes, what is there that dies and gets buried?
21 The strong among the mighty Shall speak to him out of the midst of hell With those who help him:`They have gone down, They lie with the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.'
22 "Assyria is there, and all her company, With their graves all around her, All of them slain, fallen by the sword.
23 Her graves are set in the recesses of the Pit, And her company is all around her grave, All of them slain, fallen by the sword, Who caused terror in the land of the living. (Ezek. 32:21-23 NKJ)
How does the land of Assyria get to sheol? And, her company is said to have graves in sheol. If the graves are where the dead bodies are buried what are the graves in sheol? After all, the disembodied consciousness doesn't die, right?
What about the rest of the places in the passage?
24 "There is Elam and all her multitude, All around her grave, (Ezek. 32:24 NKJ)
26 "There are Meshech and Tubal and all their multitudes, With all their graves around it, (Ezek. 32:26 NKJ)
29 "There is Edom, Her kings and all her princes, Who despite their might Are laid beside those slain by the sword; They shall lie with the uncircumcised, And with those who go down to the Pit. (Ezek. 32:29 NKJ)
How do all of these people have graves in sheol?

7 The whole earth is at rest and quiet; They break forth into singing.
8 Indeed the cypress trees rejoice over you, And the cedars of Lebanon, Saying,`Since you were cut down, No woodsman has come up against us.'
9 "Hell from beneath is excited about you, To meet you at your coming; It stirs up the dead for you, All the chief ones of the earth; It has raised up from their thrones All the kings of the nations.
10 They all shall speak and say to you:`Have you also become as weak as we? Have you become like us?
11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, And the sound of your stringed instruments; The maggot is spread under you, And worms cover you.' (Isa. 14:7-11 NKJ)
I think it's pretty obvious that this is figurative. The earth resting? Trees rejoicing and speaking? sheol excited and going out to meet him? The dead kings of the earth on thrones? Pomp in Sheol? Stringed instruments in Sheol? How does one take stringed instruments to Sheol?

I'm surprised you used this passage.

Butch5 said:

I understand what you're discussing, however, that is not what Paul is discussing. Even in the passage where you claim he's addressing life after death, he is addressing the resurrection.


13 And since we have the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, "I believed and therefore I spoke," we also believe and therefore speak,
14 knowing that He who raised up the Lord Jesus will also raise us up with Jesus, and will present us with you.
15 For all things are for your sakes, that grace, having spread through the many, may cause thanksgiving to abound to the glory of God.
16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day.
17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory,
18 while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.
1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven,
3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked.
4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.
5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.
(2 Cor. 4:13-5:9 NKJ)


The passage is about the resurrection and receiving that building from God. There is nothing here about a disembodied consciousness.

Also as I've shown Paul's understanding of life after death is that there is nothing but the resurrection.

12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.
14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up-- if in fact the dead do not rise.
16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.
17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. (1 Cor. 15:12-18 NKJ)

It doesn't sound like Paul is explaining a blissful existence in Heaven with the Lord. He said if there is no resurrection then those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. He doesn't say they are with the Lord. These are not my words, they are Paul's. To claim that in 2 Cor 5 Paul is talking about a disembodied consciousness is to contradict what he has stated here.

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That's a begging the question fallacy.

Bye, Bye.

Butch5 said:

How does this prove your Point. These people are alive. Jesus is telling them not to fear those who can kill the body. Obviously these are men that can kill the body. However, they cannot kill the life. Why is that? Because God is the only one who can ultimately end life. We read in the Scriptures that one day all who have ever lived will be raised from the dead. So, God is going put that life (soul) back into every person who has ever lived. So, those men who could kill the body didn't ultimately end that life (soul). However, when God ends that Life (soul) it will never be restored, it will be destroyed.

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What illogic!

''And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell [Gehenna]' (Matt 10:28 ESV).

You want it to mean that people can kill the body but not kill life. This is irrational argumentation.

Bye, bye!

OzSpen said:

What illogic!

''And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell [Gehenna]' (Matt 10:28 ESV).

You want it to mean that people can kill the body but not kill life. This is irrational argumentation.

Bye, bye!

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Irrational? That's interesting with the arguments you made. The dead are alive, how is that rational. Not only is it not rational it's illogical.

Now, to what I said. When I said they cannot kill the life, I expalined what i meant (I know crazy concept right). Yes they kill the person. However, as I said everyone who has ever lived will be resurrected so the person that has been killed by men is not ultimately dead. They are dead for a time but will live again once resurrected. However, when God destroys a soul is it gone forever.

Oz, I feel you're being disingenuous with this post. I find it hard to believe that you didn't understand what I wrote.

OzSpen said:

That's a begging the question fallacy.

Bye, Bye.

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I gave you definition of begging the question, thus you should know this is not it.

The churches teach that the soul is immortal, that it is something that separates from the body upon death and lives on and they want to divide us as a person into "three parts", body, soul and spirit. So what is the body, soul and spirit, as taught in the Bible ?


Starting with the Bible book of Genesis, it uses the Hebrew word nephesh (or "properly, a breathing creature", Strong's Concordance) or soul for the first time at Genesis 1:20, which says concerning the 5th "creative" day: "And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life (or "living souls”, Greek Septuagint psy·khon´ zo·son´, plural; Hebrew, ne´phesh chai·yah´, singular, referring to marine animals or other creatures as a single group and in which the same expression is used with reference to man at Gen. 2:7) and fowl (or "flying creatures") that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven."(KJV) These were among the first "breathers" or souls created.


Genesis 1:21 says: "And God created great whales, and every living creature (or "living souls", Hebrew nephesh chaiyah) that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good."(KJV)


And at Genesis 1:24 concerning the 6th "creative" day, it states: "And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature (or "living souls", Hebrew nephesh chaiyah) after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so."(KJV)


Then at Genesis 1:30, it says: "And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life (literally, “living soul” or "life as a soul", Hebrew, ne´phesh chai·yah´), I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so."(KJV) Thus, what can be seen in these scriptures ? That the sea creatures and land animals are "souls", not possessing one, for they are all "breathers" or "life as a breather", or "life as a soul".


At Genesis 9, it says that after the global flood, that God gave this command: "Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. But flesh with the life (literally "soul of him", Hebrew benaphshu) thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. And surely your blood of your lives (literally "souls of you", Hebrew lenaphshthi) will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life (or "soul of ", Hebrew athnephesh) of man."(Gen 9:4, 5, KJV)

At Numbers 9, it says: "And there were certain men, who were defiled by (by touching) the dead body (literally Hebrew "lenephesh adam" or human soul) of a man, that they could not keep the passover on that day:"(Num 9:6, KJV)


So, can a person logically conclude that the soul is something immortal that separates from the body at death ? No. Rather, the Bible identifies that the soul has blood (Gen 9:5; Jer 2:34), that both land and marine animals are "souls", that it is a "living creature" or in the case of humans, us as a living person with all our desires.


Psalms 7 says of David looking to Jehovah for deliverance: "O Jehovah my God, in you I have taken refuge. Save me from all those persecuting me and deliver me, that no one may tear my soul to pieces as a lion does".(Ps 7:2) Hence, David shows that the soul can be torn to pieces by another person or lion. But if a person still accepts that we as humans have an immortal soul, then what about the land and marine animals ? They are also called souls. Do they have immortality or "immortal souls" ?


Because the doctrine of the immortality of the soul is so deeply ingrained for some, it is difficult for them to "change course" (or as some say "Wrap your head around it") and recognize that the soul is a living creature that literally breathes (and has extended meanings), not something shadowy within a creature or person, that the words concerning the first man Adam that "Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life (“breath of life.” Hebrew, nish·math´ (from nesha·mah´) chai·yim´), and the man became a living soul ("living soul", Hebrew nephesh chaiyah)" at Genesis 2:7 is a new thought.


The apostle Paul wrote at 1 Corinthians 15:45: "And so it is written (at Gen 2:7), The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit".(KJV) Paul said that Adam was "made (or became) a living soul", not having one put within him, for of Jesus he also said that he was "made (or became) a quickening spirit", not having something shadowy put within him.


And of the word spirit (Hebrew ruach and Greek pysche), at Genesis 6:17 says: "And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life (Literally, “in which the active force (spirit) of life [is].” Hebrew, ’asher-boh´ ru´ach chai·yim´. Here ru´ach means “active force; spirit", as at Genesis 1:2) from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die."(KJV)


At Isaiah 44, it says: "For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:"(Isa 44:3, KJV) Just as water nor blessing is a person, but something that can be poured out and gives life, so likewise of the word "spirit" that can be poured out on someone, in this case, Jehovah's holy spirit. A person's life force or active force or God's holy spirit is unseen and gives them life, being an unseen force like gravity. Take away a person's spirit and what do you have ?


Psalms 104:29 says: "If you (God) take away their spirit (Hebrew ruach; KJV says "breath"), they die and return to the dust". Psalms 146 says concerning humans upon death: "His spirit (Hebrew ruach; KJV says "breath") goes out, he returns to the ground; On that day his thoughts perish".(Ps 146:4)


Thus, when Adam died, his "spirit" or life force left and he returned to that from which he was made, dust.(Gen 3:19) He then became a "dead soul" (Lev 21:1, Hebrew lenephesh lo, KJV reads "dead"), non-existent, all breathing ceased, all his thoughts perished. He was no longer alive in any way and always will remain as such. Just a when unplugging a fan from its electrical power, it "dies", having lost its "life force", so likewise of any "living soul".


So, upon death, the spirit or life force leaves the body or vanishes, and a human returns to dust or state of non-existence as before they were conceived, for Ecclesiastes 9 says: "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."(Ecc 9:5, KJV)


The Bible also uses the words body and soul to mean what we look like to others (like the body that can be seen) as opposed to what we really are on the inside, the kind of person we truly are (like the spirit or life force that is unseen).


For example, at Hebrew 4, the apostle Paul says: "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."(Heb 4:12, KJV)


Through the Bible, likened to a sword here, it reveals (or cuts away) what a person really is inside (spirit) as opposed to what people may see of a person putting on a front or pretends to be (the body), exposing hidden qualities or heart attitudes that show either a love for God or a treacherous heart.(Jer 17:9)


With the Bible, it can be discerned what is in a person's heart, who they really are, seeing inside a person, though they may profess love for God.(see John 5:42) Jesus showed this to be the case as at Mark 2:8 and Luke 12:13-15, what "spirit" or mental inclination the Jewish religious leaders (hatred for Jesus) as well as a man (coveting) had.

Guestman,

'For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul?' (Mark 8:36 ESV)

Oz

Guestman said:

The churches teach that the soul is immortal, that it is something that separates from the body upon death and lives on and they want to divide us as a person into "three parts", body, soul and spirit. So what is the body, soul and spirit, as taught in the Bible ?

Starting with the Bible book of Genesis, it uses the Hebrew word nephesh (or "properly, a breathing creature", Strong's Concordance) or soul for the first time at Genesis 1:20, which says concerning the 5th "creative" day: "And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life (or "living souls”, Greek Septuagint psy·khon´ zo·son´, plural; Hebrew, ne´phesh chai·yah´, singular, referring to marine animals or other creatures as a single group and in which the same expression is used with reference to man at Gen. 2:7) and fowl (or "flying creatures") that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven."(KJV) These were among the first "breathers" or souls created.

Genesis 1:21 says: "And God created great whales, and every living creature (or "living souls", Hebrew nephesh chaiyah) that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good."(KJV)

And at Genesis 1:24 concerning the 6th "creative" day, it states: "And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature (or "living souls", Hebrew nephesh chaiyah) after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so."(KJV)

Then at Genesis 1:30, it says: "And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life (literally, “living soul” or "life as a soul", Hebrew, ne´phesh chai·yah´), I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so."(KJV) Thus, what can be seen in these scriptures ? That the sea creatures and land animals are "souls", not possessing one, for they are all "breathers" or "life as a breather", or "life as a soul".

At Genesis 9, it says that after the global flood, that God gave this command: "Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. But flesh with the life (literally "soul of him", Hebrew benaphshu) thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. And surely your blood of your lives (literally "souls of you", Hebrew lenaphshthi) will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life (or "soul of ", Hebrew athnephesh) of man."(Gen 9:4, 5, KJV)

At Numbers 9, it says: "And there were certain men, who were defiled by (by touching) the dead body (literally Hebrew "lenephesh adam" or human soul) of a man, that they could not keep the passover on that day:"(Num 9:6, KJV)

So, can a person logically conclude that the soul is something immortal that separates from the body at death ? No. Rather, the Bible identifies that the soul has blood (Gen 9:5; Jer 2:34), that both land and marine animals are "souls", that it is a "living creature" or in the case of humans, us as a living person with all our desires.

Psalms 7 says of David looking to Jehovah for deliverance: "O Jehovah my God, in you I have taken refuge. Save me from all those persecuting me and deliver me, that no one may tear my soul to pieces as a lion does".(Ps 7:2) Hence, David shows that the soul can be torn to pieces by another person or lion. But if a person still accepts that we as humans have an immortal soul, then what about the land and marine animals ? They are also called souls. Do they have immortality or "immortal souls" ?

Because the doctrine of the immortality of the soul is so deeply ingrained for some, it is difficult for them to "change course" (or as some say "Wrap your head around it") and recognize that the soul is a living creature that literally breathes (and has extended meanings), not something shadowy within a creature or person, that the words concerning the first man Adam that "Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life (“breath of life.” Hebrew, nish·math´ (from nesha·mah´) chai·yim´), and the man became a living soul ("living soul", Hebrew nephesh chaiyah)" at Genesis 2:7 is a new thought.

The apostle Paul wrote at 1 Corinthians 15:45: "And so it is written (at Gen 2:7), The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit".(KJV) Paul said that Adam was "made (or became) a living soul", not having one put within him, for of Jesus he also said that he was "made (or became) a quickening spirit", not having something shadowy put within him.

And of the word spirit (Hebrew ruach and Greek pysche), at Genesis 6:17 says: "And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life (Literally, “in which the active force (spirit) of life [is].” Hebrew, ’asher-boh´ ru´ach chai·yim´. Here ru´ach means “active force; spirit", as at Genesis 1:2) from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die."(KJV)

At Isaiah 44, it says: "For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:"(Isa 44:3, KJV) Just as water nor blessing is a person, but something that can be poured out and gives life, so likewise of the word "spirit" that can be poured out on someone, in this case, Jehovah's holy spirit. A person's life force or active force or God's holy spirit is unseen and gives them life, being an unseen force like gravity. Take away a person's spirit and what do you have ?

Psalms 104:29 says: "If you (God) take away their spirit (Hebrew ruach; KJV says "breath"), they die and return to the dust". Psalms 146 says concerning humans upon death: "His spirit (Hebrew ruach; KJV says "breath") goes out, he returns to the ground; On that day his thoughts perish".(Ps 146:4)

Thus, when Adam died, his "spirit" or life force left and he returned to that from which he was made, dust.(Gen 3:19) He then became a "dead soul" (Lev 21:1, Hebrew lenephesh lo, KJV reads "dead"), non-existent, all breathing ceased, all his thoughts perished. He was no longer alive in any way and always will remain as such. Just a when unplugging a fan from its electrical power, it "dies", having lost its "life force", so likewise of any "living soul".

So, upon death, the spirit or life force leaves the body or vanishes, and a human returns to dust or state of non-existence as before they were conceived, for Ecclesiastes 9 says: "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."(Ecc 9:5, KJV)

The Bible also uses the words body and soul to mean what we look like to others (like the body that can be seen) as opposed to what we really are on the inside, the kind of person we truly are (like the spirit or life force that is unseen).

For example, at Hebrew 4, the apostle Paul says: "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."(Heb 4:12, KJV)

Through the Bible, likened to a sword here, it reveals (or cuts away) what a person really is inside (spirit) as opposed to what people may see of a person putting on a front or pretends to be (the body), exposing hidden qualities or heart attitudes that show either a love for God or a treacherous heart.(Jer 17:9)

With the Bible, it can be discerned what is in a person's heart, who they really are, seeing inside a person, though they may profess love for God.(see John 5:42) Jesus showed this to be the case as at Mark 2:8 and Luke 12:13-15, what "spirit" or mental inclination the Jewish religious leaders (hatred for Jesus) as well as a man (coveting) had.

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xfrodobagginsx said:

It's merely referring to the flesh. The Bible is clear that when you die you either go to heaven or hell.

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Not really. Please take a few minutes to go through the following thread and give your reasons there.

http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/22356-when-we-all-get-to-heaven-what-a-day-of-rejoicing-that-will-be/

xfrodobagginsx said:

It's merely referring to the flesh. The Bible is clear that when you die you either go to heaven or hell.

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xf,

There are a few more steps along the way than a simple 'to heaven or hell' at death.

Before Christ’s resurrection, both believers and unbelievers at death went to Sheol/Hades – two separate places in that location (see Isa 14:9-20; 44:23; Ezek 32:21; Lk 16:22-23). After Christ's resurrection, believers go to be with Christ (Phil. 1:23) which is better than Hades. According to 2 Cor. 5:6-9, believers at death are present with the Lord and are worshipping with the angelic hosts in heaven (Heb. 12:22-23).

We understand that Christ went to Hades at death (see Acts 2:31). When Jesus was in Hades, Peter explains that Christ was proclaiming to “the spirits now in prison” (1 Peter 3:18-22).

However, in the Gospel records (e.g. Luke 23:43), Paradise refers to the section of Hades reserved for the righteous. By the time of Paul’s writing in 2 Cor. 12:2-4, Paradise seems to have been taken out of Hades and is now the third heaven.

So, with progressive revelation from OT to NT, we understand that after the resurrection of Jesus, the believer who dies goes to heaven at death (present with the Lord) and there awaits the future resurrection to the eternal state (see 1 Cor 15:35-49).

What about unbelievers now? The Scriptures teach that they go into torment in the intermediate state in Hades, awaiting the final judgment. Peter described it this way:

“Then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment” (2 Peter 2:9 NIV)

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“To hold” in the Greek of this verse is a present, active infinitive, meaning that the wicked are being kept where they are, captive continuously. This verse clearly refutes annihilation of the wicked after death as there would be nothing “to hold” until the judgment day if they were zapped out of existence. Peter says the unrighteous are “continuing their punishment”, this phrase is interpreting a present, passive participle that indicates the unbelievers are being continuously tormented/punished. The Greek grammar of this text clearly states that the wicked dead are experiencing torment now, as they await the final judgment.

We read about the final judgment in Rev. 20:13-15 when Hades (the place for the wicked who died after Christ’s resurrection) will be emptied of the wicked dead and will face God for judgment. At that point, the wicked will be cast into the final hell (Gehenna).

That’s a very brief overview of how I understand the intermediate state for believers and unbelievers at death and the final judgment of unbelievers after Christ's resurrection.

Oz

Where is the heaven..........Where will we go.....

Loretta said:

Where is the heaven..........Where will we go.....

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Loretta,

At GotQuestions? there is an excellent, brief article, 'Where is heaven? What is the location of heaven?'

Heaven is where the Trinitarian God is. We have not been told its specific location in Scripture.

Oz