Is The Human Body Evil?

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Webers_Home

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It appears from Rom 7:14-28 and Rom 8:3 that my body is sinful.

I certainly had no choice in that; nor do I have perfect understanding of
what it is about my body that's bad. But even if I did; there's probably
nothing I can do about it anyway. I mean: my body has a number of
automatic functions over which I have no control; and that's counting the 3
pound lump of flabby organic tissue housed within my bony little skull
sufficing for a mind. How am I supposed to cure the sinfulness of a flabby
lump without destroying its mind in the process?

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HammerStone

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Luke 9:23 HCSB
Then He said to them all, “If anyone wants to come with Me, he must deny himself, take up his cross daily,and follow Me.

I caution everyone not to get caught up in gnostic dualism. The flesh is not evil simply because it's flesh.
 
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aspen

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Thank you for pointing out this important heresy, Hammerstone. It is embedded within our doctrine and we do not even recognize it.
 

Webers_Home

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HammerStone said:
The flesh is not evil simply because it's flesh.
That's true. However; the human body's flesh produces human nature; and
that's why Paul said:

"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing" (Rom 7:18)

"For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law
in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into
captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. (Rom 7:22-23)

The human body's members-- which includes its brain seeing as how the
human body's brain is made of flesh --are so bad that God intends to
incinerate the lost's bodies in a lake of fire, and to transform the saved's
bodies into bodies like Christ's glorified body. Either way, lost or saved, your
current body is slated for disposal because it's not worth keeping.

Now as to Gnostics: I'm told they like to I think of all of creation as evil. To
my knowledge, the Bible doesn't say that all of creation is evil; but it does
say that the human body is evil; e.g. Rom 7:14-28 and Rom 8:3.

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19DuggarFan

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24) O wretched man that i am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So that with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Romans 7:24-25

We are told that we should prayer for the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak, Matthew 26:40-41. Our mind is the realm where the we renew the spirit by transforming it to God view see Romans 12:1-2. We as believers do this by bringing our thoughts into captivity to the obedience of Christ, II Corinthians 10:3-5, this is why Paul tells us to think on good things as he does in Philippians 4:8.
 
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HammerStone

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Now as to Gnostics: I'm told they like to I think of all of creation as evil. To
my knowledge, the Bible doesn't say that all of creation is evil; but it does
say that the human body is evil; e.g. Rom 7:14-28 and Rom 8:3.

To summarize varied and complicated beliefs, gnostics belief boils down to: matter = bad and spirit = good. Therefore, anything in creation that has mass is evil. Christianity, when it collides with this notion, can often adopt a quasi-gnostic flavor of this in stating that flesh is bad simply because it's flesh. It's called dualism, akin to concepts like the yin and yang. This doesn't work so well when we have Christ as the perfect in-flesh man, because he'd either not be fully man (aka [more or less] heresy) or he somehow changed what it meant to be man (also heresy) and did not fully experience what we experience, contrary to the claims of Hebrews.

I'm not sure you are quite going down this path or not, but this is my standard sort of warning about that. I know aspen also cares very much about this important distinction, because dualism can lead to some bad theology.

Yes the flesh is bad, but it's not bad only because it's flesh. It's bad because it's our nature. We are creatures deserving of wrath because we are fallen. I am not fallen just because I happen to have a flesh body. I am fallen because I am me. I need a savior, but not just because I have a flesh body.
 

19DuggarFan

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So just a little dumbfounded my Bible only goes to Romans 7:25, so where are the extra 3 verses coming from?

Also John does deal with Gnosticism in I John. In I John 1:7-10, he speaks to the gnostic teaching that the spirit is separate from the body so that it can not sin; stating how we have fellowship with God by walking in the light, that is in the Spirit but our spirits will still sin so that the gnostic that the spirit is without sin is heresy.

The other gnostic teaching that John attacked was the teaching that Hammerstone has touch on that the flesh is evil, so that it can only sin, but John makes it clear that no Christian has the right to live a live of sin and leave it uncheck just saying that we can't control our flesh, this is cover in I John 3:5-9. So that John is saying not that believers don't sin, but because the gnostic taught that the material body could only sin so they lived a extremely immoral life that no Christian would purposely live this way, for than would we be guilty of yielding our members to sin, Romans 6:13.
 

Webers_Home

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19DuggarFan said:
my Bible only goes to Romans 7:25, so where are the extra 3 verses coming
from?
From failing eyesight. I have cataracts and sometimes can't see verse
numbers all that well on screen in my Bible software.

Paul said that nothing good dwelled in his body's flesh (Rom 7:18). If his
statement is true and reliable, then by default only bad things were dwelling
in it; and that has to include Paul's brain seeing as how his body's brain was
made of flesh.

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face2face

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Webers_Home said:
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From failing eyesight. I have cataracts and sometimes can't see verse
numbers all that well on screen in my Bible software.
Paul said that nothing good dwelled in his body's flesh (Rom 7:18). If his
statement is true and reliable, then by default only bad things were dwelling
in it; and that has to include Paul's brain seeing as how his body's brain was
made of flesh.
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Greetings Webers
This is an interesting subject one I have enjoyed looking into for many years.
Though a word of caution. You can very quickly loose the bigger picture if you look to intently.
What is your motivation for such a subject?
F2F
 

Webers_Home

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face2face said:
What is your motivation for such a subject?
This is only one of many, many topics that I've initiated all across the
internet since 1997. And I've done them all for one reason, and one
reason only: entertainment. I used to play video games, but now I do
forums. Keeps my mind active, and at my age; that's pretty important.

BTW: Some people are very proud of the quality of their brain, not realizing
that they are proud of the very thing responsible for maneuvering so many
unwary souls straight down the road to hell.

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face2face

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Webers_Home said:
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This is only one of many, many topics that I've initiated all across the
internet since 1997. And I've done them all for one reason, and one
reason only: entertainment. I used to play video games, but now I do
forums. Keeps my mind active, and at my age; that's pretty important.
BTW: Some people are very proud of the quality of their brain, not realizing
that they are proud of the very thing responsible for maneuvering so many
unwary souls straight down the road to hell.
=============================================
Given your age and need to keep the cogs turning do you get lonely?
Does it matter the subject or is it the connection that matters?
F2F
 

Webers_Home

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face2face said:
do you get lonely?
I'm married-- same girl, going on 36 years.

face2face said:
Does it matter the subject
The subject does matter. I don't like to talk about just any old thing. Some
people are natural born bee-essers: I'm not.


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face2face

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Webers_Home said:
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I'm married-- same girl, going on 36 years.



The subject does matter. I don't like to talk about just any old thing. Some
people are natural born bee-essers: I'm not.

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Thanks for sharing.
I am married 15 years, to a very paitent girl (just a babe!).
4 children
Live in Melbourne Australia.

In terms of the subject I dont believe sin is a physical attribute in the flesh as if you were to cut off an arm you would be less sinful ;)

My take.

F2F
 

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Webers_Home said:
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From failing eyesight. I have cataracts and sometimes can't see verse
numbers all that well on screen in my Bible software.

Paul said that nothing good dwelled in his body's flesh (Rom 7:18). If his
statement is true and reliable, then by default only bad things were dwelling
in it; and that has to include Paul's brain seeing as how his body's brain was
made of flesh.

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The flesh is not sinful.

THE LAW defines sin as an ACT or violation of the will of God. Since sin is being considered here, then the law MUST be considered because THE LAW defines what is and is not sin. The LAW never defines the flesh as sin. Never. Show me chapter and verse where the LAW says the flesh is sin. You will not find it because it is not so.

Hammerstone has repeatedly made excellent scholarly references to the classic differences between flesh and spirit. He describes Christian theology in collision with heresy and misrepresentation, but his point has not been taken. The flesh in and of itself is not evil. A sleeping man, for example, commits no sinful acts during his repose. Would you say that a new born baby is riddled with sin before the first time it suckles from its mother? It's important to understand that there are several variations of Christian dogma, all heresy, that assert this very thing to be true - that the sleeping man is sinful and that the baby is also.

It is the ACT that is punished.

The flesh or temptation to sin is not punished. It is not even considered by God to be a punishable offense. This is the law, both spiritual and carnal. Review the 10 commandments all of which are eternal spiritual and are still in effect. They are all, every one of them, about acts which are sinful. The law NEVER says the flesh is sinful. Show me chapter and verse where the LAW says so.

The ACT of sin results in eternal punishment. The WAGES of sin is death, not the temptations to do it. If flesh was sinful and if temptation to sin was sinful, then Christ who experienced both is a sinner. May it never be! Don't you see the logical problem here? The ACT is judged, not the temptation. Christ was tempted as all men, but did not ACT on it. Therefore He is without sin.

There are also numerous heresies, including but not limited to the Nestorian branch of Christianity that deny Christ's flesh as well. But if Christ did not come in the flesh and did not suffer in the flesh, then His death upon the cross has no meaning. There is no salvation according to this dogma. May it never be! Christ suffered temptation and died a sacrificial death, according to the law, upon the cross. Jesus did not come to replace the law or to destroy it. He came to fulfill it and He did so to His dying breath.

Since the present discussion is about sin, then the LAW must be considered. Why? Because the LAW defines the act of sin. Nowhere in the law does it state that flesh is evil. Study the law. Dive into it deeply and you will see it defines actions. None of the 613 Jewish commandments define the flesh as sinful. None.

What then is St. Paul writing about in his letter to the Romans and what was Jesus talking about when He said that if one even thought about sin he had committed it? (Matt 5:21) Both men are referring to constant thought about sin which results in the act. Both men are warning about NOT thinking about it and dwelling on it. Both men are saying that temptation should be denied immediately. Jesus was tempted, but immediately denied the act it suggested.

Consider two excellent parallels of the impact of temptation in scripture. The woman Eve and the man Jesus.

Genesis 3:1-6 is the temptation story. In the first half of verse 6 we read that "the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight for the eyes, and that the tree was was to be desired to make one wise". In the last half of the verse, she yields to temptation and eats. The quoted portion here describes Eve's state of mind as she CONSIDERS the ACT of sin. She descended from level to level until she acted upon the temptation. Level to level. Read it again. Level to level. This is exactly what St. Paul and Jesus are warning us against - the repeated and focused consideration of a sinful act in the mind leads to sin. When you imagine yourself doing it - its the same as doing it because you are already planning the act.

Matt 4:1-11 is the account of Jesus' temptation to sin in the desert. When presented with temptation, Jesus IMMEDIATELY rejected it. Jesus was tempted, but DID NOT consider for one moment the performance of the act. If He had done so, He would have been caught in it's trap. Jesus did not dwell upon it in His mind at all.

The flesh is not sin, but it is the womb in which sin is born into the world.

God did not create sin - Eve did.

Or to use the Biblical reference, the first man Adam sinned. Either way, sin came into the world by Eve and Adam, NOT God. The law is not sinful. The ACT, defined by the law is sin.

When a man is brought before a court of law on earth, he is judged by what he has DONE. So it is with the throne of heaven. A man is judged according to what he has done according to the LAW. Man is never judged for being a man (except in present American society).

The flesh is not in and of itself sinful, but sin is brought into the world through man who uses his flesh to perform it.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 

Webers_Home

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Christian faith accepts what's revealed to it rather than believing only what
makes sense to it. For instance: the human body is revealed not as innocent
flesh; rather: as sinful flesh.

†. Rom 8:3 . . God, sending His own son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and
as an offering for sin, condemned sin in the flesh,

It's curious that so many people seem to think that the human body is
benign. No; the human body is quite toxic. It's mankind's own worst
enemy.

†. Rom 7:22-23 . . For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: but
I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and
bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

If people rise from the dead with the same body to face justice at the Great
White Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15, they will be right back to
square one facing God in sinful flesh as slaves to the law of sin in their
members. Not good.

†. Rom 7:18 . . I know that within me (that is: within my flesh) dwelleth no
good thing.

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MCHamHam

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We are in the flesh as a product of the fallen world. Inherently lustful for the pleasures of the flesh.

KJV James 1:13-14
"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: but every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed."

Once you become part of the body of Christ, the enemy is going to do any and everything in his power to get you to leave. Sin is in our nature(being fallen), but we are to repent of these things because that isn't part of our creation purpose. Our purpose is to serve God. When the Holy Spirit is truly important to you it dwells in you and you're spiritually able to turn away from sin and get closer to our God.
 

DPMartin

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What God created is good, very good, what mankind does with it, can be evil. Everything has its proper place and purpose under the sun, according to the will of it’s Creator and Judge, not according to man.

Even apostle Paul states: Eph:6:12: For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

So anyone who is blaming the body, or flesh, for his or hers evil doings and thought’s (lusts for the flesh that isn’t according to the will of God), seeks to detract from the truth of the evil that festers in their own heart.

It’s not what you see, it’s what you think of, when you see, that is a result of what is in the heart, that can’t be escaped unless one receives the life of Christ to replace it. Hence Paul’s description of the body of sin. We are born into the life Adam and Eve had (dust to dust, ashes to ashes) as a result of sin, and Paul is in his own words describes the same dilemma mankind is in. We are born into the world separate from God. But we are born of the Holy Spirit into the acceptable Presence of God, as a result of the Life of Christ given to us.
 

whitestone

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(Mat 9:4) And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

Mat_15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

(1Jn 3:8) he that doeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. To this end was the Son of God manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Mat_13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

(1Jn 5:18) We know that whosoever is begotten of God sinneth not; but he that was begotten of God keepeth himself, and the evil one toucheth him not.
 

Bible_Gazer

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naw not born with sin

sin is breaking the law

then it must be thoughts because the law is learned

lust and desire - seem to be connected with experience