The Wrath of the Lord

Those are not eschatological references that point to some time of protection for the Church during the Great Tribulation.

You could have tried Rev 3:10, but even that does not say what you want when you look at what tereo ek really means.

Jesus said it very well:

Mt 24:9 " Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. 11 Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12 Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

We will be handed over, however, even if we lose our mortal life, our eternal life is quite secure - which is the message of the Bible: the assurance that God will save us.

Jesus said this about the Great Tribulation and us:

Mt 24:22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

The applicable part is the ones being saved, i.e., the Church. The wicked are not a concern for salvation; they are doomed. Jesus is telling us that most of us won't make it through the Great Tribulation.

Paul says the same thing here:

1Th 4:15 Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord,

Why remain? Because few are left alive after the Great Tribulation - of our number! And Paul repeats that qualification in verse 17.

No, the only ones afforded physical protection are the Remnant Jews who are not yet worthy of eternal salvation because of their current unbelief. God will marshal them through the desolations of His Wrath and being the target of the enemy set on utterly destroying them.

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. 14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she *was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. 17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

We suffer the fury of the anti-Christ. God WILL watch out for us, and even though we may die - we will be saved!

Endure patiently.

And don't look for an easy way out... that can lead to falling away from true faith.

Marcus,

Did you even read my post? I said I don't see any verse in the Bible that teaches a secret rapture. Also, Rev. 1:9 makes it clear that the "tribulation" is not a future event. Christians have been suffering tribulation for 2000 years and will continue to do so until Christ returns.

The Barrd said:

Keras, for all anyone knows, you could both be wrong.
Loads of people have made these predictions...and they have been wrong.
Neither one of you should be berating the other. Both of you should be working out your salvation in fear and trembling.
Because....
Whether it is one day or ten, or whether it is tomorrow or a thousand years from now, that time is coming. And you will face a very real God.
And you will give an answer for every careless word you have allowed out of your mouth...yes, including the nonsense you type in forums like this one.

Please, guys...this old grandmother is asking you...
Disagree all you want.
But shelve the personal attacks.
Thank you.

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Marcus, Keras, consider yourselves admonished.

Wormwood said:

Marcus,

Did you even read my post? I said I don't see any verse in the Bible that teaches a secret rapture. Also, Rev. 1:9 makes it clear that the "tribulation" is not a future event. Christians have been suffering tribulation for 2000 years and will continue to do so until Christ returns.

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And so I thought you were insinuating that somehow I was advocating a "secret" Rapture, and using that as a straw man, sought to disprove the Rapture entirely as Keras evidently believes - so I showed the applicable verses which say there is no such thing as a secret Rapture and verses which indicate there IS a gathering of the Elect from the earth - which we commonly call the Rapture (a bona fide word originating with the Greek harpazo).

Your weren't? Okay, that was my misunderstanding.

Now as far as tribulation, yes, it has been going on, but Jesus defines a very specific and unique time period, the Great Tribulation, which begins only at the midpoint, and which, if it would not be abruptly cut off by the Father with the otherwise unexpected (by the wicked) Day of the Lord, which we will not know exactly when it will come either - the Elect would be entirely eliminated.

This unknown Day is the Day of the Lord, the last day of the Church Age begun with the Festival of First Fruits, and it will end on the figurative Rosh ha-Shannah when He returns anew!

Another account dealing with this specific time period to Mt 24:15-31 can be found in Rev 13:14 to14:16. The reason for the Great Tribulation coming with the midpoint abomination are two laws we are explicitly told NOT to heed! Failure to comply will result in death by starvation/exposure or outright execution! Either way, it will work to decimate the true Church.

Mind you, not everyone in church will be saved. There will be foolish virgins who think they can have Jesus in the heart and the mark of the beast on their hand and they will be left behind to suffer God's Wrath. I can easily predict that there will be various church services around the country on the day after the rapture... and anyone who attends them, will be of that faction of lost souls.

Jesus has warned us not to try to save ourselves. That is my message. And to those who cannot address the precious passages I posted which spell out the rapture, and deny it, well, don't follow them: they are blind.

Matthew 24:37-41 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Now please note carefully what Jesus is saying here. First, the second coming will be affected in precisely the same way as the great flood. The unrighteous will not be aware of the signs of the times, they shall be living at ease, living life as normal with little or no thought of eternity, when they shall be taken all away.
Let us go to the parallel passage in the gospel of Luke. You will note that Luke adds a little more detail giving a slightly different perspective.

Luke 17:26-37 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot’s wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

The people that Matthew says are taken away, Luke adds that they are destroyed. Thus the ‘taken away’ aspect or context of what Jesus is telling His disciples equates to death or destruction. This is borne out later in Luke’s passage when the disciples ask Him, “where are they taken to?” Jesus answer concerning the gathering of eagles around the carcasse echoes the following:

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

I am beginning to think that being left behind isn’t such a bad alternative. But we shall see. We will now look at another passage and see how consistent Jesus is regarding the subject.

Matthew 13:24-30 ¶ Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

A little later Jesus explains the parable to His disciples.

Matthew 13:37-42 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

So let us recap the main points:
The second coming of Jesus Christ is in like manner as the great flood.
The wicked, who in Noah’s day were living their normal everyday lives in ignorance and sin, were all taken away by the flood (Matthew 24:39) therefore so also will the wicked be at the second coming.
They are taken away to their ultimate death, or destruction. (Luke 17:27,29)
The concept of the wicked being taken is repeated many times. (Matt. 24:39-41; Luke 17:34-36)
The taking away or removal of the wicked to be destroyed comes before the gathering of the righteous.
Now, let me ask a question. In Noah’s day, after the flood had removed the wicked from the face of the earth and destroyed them all, who was left behind?

Genesis 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
Who was it that was left behind when fire and brimstone fell from heaven and destroyed Sodom and the other cities of the plain? Was it not Lot and his two daughters?
The Left Behind series of books and movies are based on the premise that it would be a terrible thing to be left behind; that to be left behind was to be avoided at all costs. If we are to believe the words of Jesus however it would appear to me that to be left behind, alive and kicking, would be a far better alternative.

I have to agree with you that being left behind is not a bad thing. Psalms 37:29...

"Taken" comes from paralambano which is the same word which is translated as RECEIVING CHRIST.

Noah was taken into the Ark, Lot was taken away from Sodom. Both were rescued and then immediately after, the wicked - who were left behind - were killed.

Your weren't? Okay, that was my misunderstanding.

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I was just explaining my understanding of the term "rapture." It means different things to different people. Biblically, I find no justification for a secret rapture. I was not insinuating you did. I dont think those you are debating with would deny that Jesus is going to return and "snatch up" those who belong to him. I am not sure what you guys are debating with regards to the meaning of this term. It seems we all agree Jesus is going to return and take up those who belong to him and judge the wicked, correct?

Now as far as tribulation, yes, it has been going on, but Jesus defines a very specific and unique time period, the Great Tribulation, which begins only at the midpoint, and which, if it would not be abruptly cut off by the Father with the otherwise unexpected (by the wicked) Day of the Lord, which we will not know exactly when it will come either - the Elect would be entirely eliminated.

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In my estimation, this is needlessly creating a lot of theological parameters over a very simple adjective. I find no reason to see the tribulation that John is going through in 1:9 and the megales tribulation in Revelation 7:14 to be different time periods. Jesus also speaks of "megas" tribulation in Revelation 2:22. Clearly, this "great tribulation" is just describing intense suffering and is not pointing to a particular era at the end of the world. Why should 7:14 be any different? It is like me saying that I ate a hamburger for lunch and a little while later telling someone I had a huge hamburger. The adjective "huge" is not an indicator that I am speaking of two different hamburgers. It could be, but apart from any specific contextual indication that this is so, we should assume that the hamburger I had for lunch was a huge one. In the same way, John is going through tribulation. When Christ returns, he will clothe in white those who went through great tribulation as they waited for his appearing. Certainly Christians who were exiled to islands, burned at stakes, beheaded, etc (which continues to happen around the world) are going through "great" tribulation. There is nothing in Revelation that indicates this is a specified period of time distinct from John's tribulation that he is a "partner" alongside other suffering Christians.

The added detail that gives us the reason that the Elect would otherwise be eliminated are verse 13:14-15.

The two laws which are out into effect are coincidental with the talking image which describes the abomination(s) desolation of My 24:15.

And unlike what you describe in past and present terms for tribulation, Jesus describes this desolation as being unequaled which makes it specific and unique to this future time when a talking image of the anti-Christ is set inside the Temple!

Furthermore, this time of megas thlipsis ends with the sudden arrival of the Day of the Lord.

So we know both the beginning and end time for the Great Tribulation.

Again, this awful time will see the Church forced at the point of death to violate Jesus' command not to obey them! This will lead to wholesale slaughter.

Only by Jesus' Coming will any of the Elect be alive and still left upon the earth! There will be people who are taken up who never taste death; they will be alive when it happens! God provides for witnesses for this most glorious Day!

So I disagree with your hamburger analogy based on what Jesus said. While past and present martyrs will be included with those who perish in the Great Tribulation under the fifth Seal glass floor, the Great Tribulation stands as a specific and unique (unequaled) future event.

I say some on this forum and I find this thread Dumb, the Church will not feel the wrath of God> that comes in Jacobs troubles, Yes the Christ like die every day from Islam to Christ haters all over the world {Pakistan} they kill Christians like they hit the floor mat. Is that the wrath of God?? NO > There is a wrath of God coming and you don't want to be HERE!THE BLESSED HOPE!> Its in your Bible >read IT!

I will have to do a thread of the heart in the end times that we are and into Jacobs troubles. > its very intro and I see It this is the time so close you can smell it!>very > very intro1

As I said the Bible has nothing to do with America>Canada or France!. that is the first thing you have to understand! When you can brake that thought you will never understand the Bible!

keras said:

Correct, it is the modern Jews that make the old seventh month into their New Year.
This doesn't change the dates of the Mo'ed's [feasts] and Yom Teruah will fall on September 13/14.
I believe that day is the Lord's Appointed Day, Habakkuk 2:3 and one time, could be soon, it will be fulfilled.

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So another prediction falls flat on its face.

Wait...was that supposed to be this September?
Oh, dear...not much time left, then....

Well if you knew the real sequence of events you wouldn't have put your foot in your mouth by even putting today out there as a possibility.

There is no abomination desolation, no Temple, and the one 'seven' hasn't even started!

And as another poster put up the relative verses which you can't fathom, when the Day of the Lord comes - and it doesn't have to be on the calendar date for Rosh ha-Shannah - the Rapture comes.

Paul said when Jesus comes, we meet him in the air. You still can't get that right in your own eschatology.

keras said:

[SIZE=medium]THE LORDS WRATH – how will it happen?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]This much prophesied, still to come, Lords Day of vengeance and wrath – may happen at the same time as the next Middle East war. People think there may be a nuclear exchange, but what is more certain is what the prophets say:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Jeremiah 50:25 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]The Lord opens His armoury and brings forth the weapons of His wrath, [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]for this is His work to be done in the lands of the godless peoples.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Isaiah 34:5 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]For [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]My sword appears in heaven,[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] it descends in judgement.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Psalm 11:6 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]The Lord is in heaven, [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]raining fiery coals[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] onto the wicked.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Isaiah 66:15-16 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]See, the Lord [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]is coming in fire, like a whirlwind.[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] He will judge with fire, His sword will test mankind and many will be slain by Him.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Isaiah 33:10-12[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] Now I shall arise, says the Lord, I will exalt Myself. You will be as chaff and stubble, [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]a wind like fire[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] will consume you. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Whole nations will be heaps of white ash, like thorns cut down and set on fire.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Psalm 144:5-6 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Lord, part the heavens. Make [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]lightning flashes far and wide[/SIZE][SIZE=medium].[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Isaiah 30:30 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Then the Lord will make His voice heard in majesty...descending in fierce anger with [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]devouring flames of fire[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] amid storms and hail.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Jeremiah 30:23-24 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]See what a scorching wind has gone out from God,[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] a sweeping whirlwind which whirls around the heads of the wicked. The Lords fierce anger is not to be turned aside until He has fully accomplished His purposes.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]In Days to come you will understand. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Isaiah 29:5-6 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Yet, the horde of Your enemies will crumble into dust, fly away like chaff. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Suddenly in an instant[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] punishment will come from the Lord, with storms, thunder, earthquakes and great noise and a [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]flame of devouring fire.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Isaiah 9:19 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]The land is scorched by the Lord, the people are like fuel for the fire[/SIZE][SIZE=medium].[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Isaiah 10:17 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]The Light of Israel will become a fire, its Holy One a flame, which, [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]in one day will burn up and consume[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]His thorns and briars.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Isaiah 30:26 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]On the Day that the Lord saves His people, [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]the sun will shine with seven times its usual brightness[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] and the moon will be as bright as the sun.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]See; the Lord comes from afar, His anger blazing and His doom heavy. His lips are charged with wrath and His [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]tongue is a devouring fire. His breath is like a torrent in spate. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]He[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]sieves out the nations for destruction. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Isaiah 63:1-6[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]What these (and other) prophecies say, seems to me to be describing sunspot activity.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Maybe the sun is building up to a huge coronal mass ejection. This can happen very suddenly and unexpectedly, reaching earth within hours and would be capable of causing enormous damage and deaths worldwide.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]All electrical and communications systems, industry, transport, you name it, could be destroyed, or at least severely damaged. Armies would be back to 1800’s technology.[/SIZE]
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Thats alot of bible verses......I can't keep up..