The Wrath of the Lord

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Marcus O'Reillius

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There are Christians.
They fall into two types:
1. The Elect: these Christians will not fail in their faith.
2. Foolish virgins: these so-called Christians will fail in the Great Tribulation.

The Elect are further divided into three types:
A. Those who die natural deaths. They will rise first on the Day of the Lord.
B. Martyrs: they are killed for their faith. They become alive after the one 'seven' when their number is complete.
C. Those remain and are still alive on the Day of the Lord. They are raptured up and do not experience the pain of dying.

There are three types of Jews:
1. Messaniac Jews: they are actually Christian and adhere to the types set above.
2. Natural born Jews who deny Jesus is the Christ. They are not gathered up on the Day of the Lord and suffer God's Wrath - the time of Jacob's trouble.
The Remnant Jews who flee and are ushered into the wilderness by God and so survive God's Wrath to enter the Millennium.

The wicked are of two types:
1. The prideful 99%
2. The meek 1% who survive the destruction of his world. From other nations, they finally join the Remnant Jews in seeking Jesus as their Messiah King in the Millennium.

In Christ Messaniac Jew and Christian are united as the Elect.
After the second resurrection, the Sheep join the Elect as God's people in the New Heavens and New Earth.

You, keras, confuse natural Israel passages for the Church.
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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keras said:
The only scripture you quote does not say what is pictured in Rev. 7:9-17 is in heaven. That chapter clearly starts on earth and nowhere is there a change of venue. God's Throne can be anywhere.
God the Father's Throne is in Heaven as set in chapters 4-5. The scene in Rev 7:9-17 is in Heaven.

You err, and my first clue is when you say 'it is clear'.
 

keras

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True Christians ARE Israelites. That is how Paul says it is in Romans 8 & 9. Any other people are simply non Christian, be they Jews or any other person. Confirmed by verse 7, where it is Christians from every tribe, race and language are gathered in Jerusalem. Proved by Rev 14:1.

Your belief that Rev 7:9-17 suddenly changes from the earthly selection of the 144,000, to a scene in heaven is not supported by the text. Nowhere is heaven mentioned. God's throne can be anywhere and in Ezekiel 1 & 2 he is by the river Kebar and he sees the Throne of God there, verse 26.
Jeremiah 49:38 says God will set His Throne in Elam, in order to destroy their leaders. I see this as the Psalm 83 fulfilment.

John the Revelator did see God's Throne in heaven, but we see in Rev 21:3 that eventually He will dwell with mankind on earth.

There is no reason or need for humans to go to heaven, nice as that prospect may seem to some. We are here to do the tasks assigned to each of us. Get on with it, or be found wanting when Jesus Returns.
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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The true Temple is in Heaven. The Temple here is based on it. The Father does not reside on the earth, His footstool, nor would He as the desolations He has decreed are about to hit.

John is not the revelator. It is the Revelation of Jesus. John is the writer. The visions he sees while in Heaven after being taken up do not necessitate him being transported to that scene. The Great Multitude is in Heaven.

Christians are not Israelis. We are the spiritual Isarael. Most to the point of nearly all natural born Israel is not Christian. It is your error to take passages, verses, and prophesy meant for Israel and apply it to the Elect.
 

keras

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Marcus, I'm sure people, [if there are any others who actually read our posts] can see how you mis-read and twist what I say.

The Temple is now spiritual, as you say and God resides in heaven. But Rev. 20:3 says He will eventually come to dwell on earth. My point is; there is no reason for humans to go to heaven at all.

To differentiate between John the Apostle and the writer of Revelation, who may or may not be the same person, he is called John the Revelator.
Saying the great multitude of Rev 7:9 is in heaven, is your addition to scripture. The word 'heaven' is not there in the Bible.

Christians are not Israelites? Sure they aren't Israelis', that is: citizens of the State of Israel, but you violate Romans 8:6-8 by saying true Christians are not now deemed as Israelites. You also miss the fact that there are far more natural born Israelites that just the Jews. Amos 9:9
Remember that now there is only one body of Christ; Ephesians 4:4-6
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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keras said:
The Temple is now spiritual, as you say and God resides in heaven.
God's Temple is not gone. And if He does not reside in Heaven, pray tell - where is Jesus?

So don't confuse the spiritual temple whom we are with the real Temple in Heaven, which like God, is unchanging.

I don't have to twist your words, you twist Scripture because you are confused. The next quote illustrates this warped aspect of your "study" mister "teacher".

keras said:
But Rev. 20:3 says He will eventually come to dwell on earth.
It doesn't say that at all.

Rev 20:3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

So the reader should ALWAYS check your work because the conclusions you draw in your confusion are themselves quite opposite from a plain reading of the very Scripture you cite for it!

keras said:
My point is; there is no reason for humans to go to heaven at all.
No, there's no reason at all to remove the Church... not in a man-centered world... except that God is going to make the earth unlivable.

Do not be like keras and confuse Scripture.

Do not confuse Rev 3:10 with total protection: it is not. The "keep from" is really tereo ek and literally means "watch out". John, the writer of Revelation, wrote those same words in his gospel concerning Jesus' prayer for the Disciples and except for himself, the one Jesus loved; everyone was martyred. tereo ek is not total protection from what is all around you - but it is an active assurance that no matter what happens, ultimately your faith will save you when God lifts you up to Heaven.

Do not confuse Rev 12:6 or 12:14 as meaning God will protect the Church during the second half of the one 'seven' when His Wrath will desolate the earth. Those verses are for the woman Israel - which refers to naturally born Jews, in this case: specifically the Remnant Jews Jesus will shepherd through the earth's desolations and the anti-Christ's desire to entirely wipe them out. The differentiation between the woman Israel as naturally born Jews and the believers in Christ who are the Elect is found in Rev 12:17. When the anti-Christ can't wipe out the Jews, (or make them as bad as he is) he turns his attention to us with the Great Tribulation.

keras said:
Saying the great multitude of Rev 7:9 is in heaven, is your addition to scripture. The word 'heaven' is not there in the Bible.
First of John, the Disciple of Christ, who was shown things of which he could not speak during Paul's lifetime wrote the book while in his latter years in exile.

Second of all, John never states he goes back to the earth when he "sees" events taking place there. God has every ability to "show" John visions of what happens beyond his presence in His Temple in Heaven which is the scene into which John is taken up as described and chronicled at length in chapters 4 and 5.

John chronicles when He was 'taken up' in Rev 4:1 and every movement afterward - which is confined to one instance for some place in Rev 17:3. And having read the book of Enoch, which is referenced in the New Testament as Scripture, I was struck by Enoch's description of the topography of Heaven: it's not what I thought as is generally depicted as being cloud-like. That idea comes from the very Rapture itself being on the clouds.

So just because something isn't written out for ultra-literal children so as to spell out every little nuance of fact - doesn't mean the Great Multitude are in the same place that the previous vision of the 144,000 come. The two are separate visions John is given by God who wants to reveal what will happen in the end to us so as to help us make sense of the other bits and pieces of end-time prophecy.

It remains a fact that they are before God the Father, whose Throne is in His Temple in Heaven. God the Father is not said to dwell upon the earth ON the Day of the Lord, or even immediately after that. Nor is God the Father said to reside permanently upon the earth during the Millennium.

Rather, Jerusalem is termed a "camp" which is a temporary dwelling for those two times all the world must come to the Messiah King: Jesus. Even Jesus does not permanently reside on the earth during the Millennium. We will rule it instead, and even that does not necessitate the whole of the Church, in new immortal and imperishable bodies residing side-by-side with flesh and blood mortals.
 

keras

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Revelation 21:3-4 I saw the Holy city, new Jerusalem coming down from heaven, made ready like a bride.....I heard a loud voice say: Now God has His dwelling with mankind.......

Just proves I'm human to make a typo.

Marcus your belief of another plan of God for the Jews is wrong. Zechariah 13:7-9 and Isaiah 6:13 show they will be severely judged and only a Christian remnant will survive. They join with the rest of the true believers to make one Holy people in the Land. Ephesians 4:4-6

Also your statement; 'God will make the world unliveable', does not happen until the end of the Millennium, as 2 Peter 3:13 and Rev 21 say.

Making Revelation 7 out to happen in two locations, is just a false construct done by those who have to fit their rapture to heaven theory somewhere. Verse 14 refers to the "great tribulation' of the Sixth seal, not the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, to come later.
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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keras said:
Zechariah 13:7-9 and Isaiah 6:13 show they will be severely judged and only a Christian remnant will survive.
According to 'teacher' keras Zechariah is addressed to the Church.

7 "Awake, sword, against my shepherd,
against the man who is close to me!"
declares the Lord Almighty.
"Strike the shepherd,
and the sheep will be scattered,
and I will turn my hand against the little ones.

8 In the whole land," declares the Lord,
"two- thirds will be struck down and perish;
yet one- third will be left in it.

9 This third I will put into the fire;
I will refine them like silver
and test them like gold.
They will call on my name
and I will answer them;
I will say, 'They are my people,'
and they will say, 'The Lord is our God.


According to keras - God kills Christians.

The trouble is, Zechariah is addressed to the Jews. It is the time of Jacob's trouble that God comes against Israel and there will be death and destruction.

Yet, through that, some of the Jews are preserved.

But God does not kill the Elect; God saves the Elect from the anti-Christ (and thus from Satan's grasp) during the Great Tribulation.

...and there is only ONE Great Tribulation.
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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Isaiah 6:13 is not to the Church either.

More misinformation from teacher keras.

Expositor's Bible Commentary on the passage:

9- 10 The suggestion, made by some modern scholars, that this passage was written only after Isaiah had already experienced the people's hardness of heart is based on rationalistic presuppositions. It is of the same order as the idea that our Lord's predictions of his passion were manufactured by the church ex eventu. Not only did the Lord Almighty know what would occur, but he planned it; for he is King (vv. 1, 5). Some commentators consider the phrase "this people" (v. 9) to be contemptuous, but O. Kaiser (in loc.) makes the relevant comment that it is not normally so in the OT (referring to Exod 3:21; 5:22; 17:4; 18:18; Num 11:14; Deut 5:28; Josh 1:2; Mic 2:11; and Hag 1:2). On the other side, however, passages from Isaiah himself, like 9:16 and especially 29:13, do suggest a measure of contempt. It is really not possible to be sure here.

The words of God to Isaiah are quoted in each of the Gospels (Matt 13:14- 15; Mark 4:10- 12; Luke 8:10; John 12:39- 41) and twice by Paul (Acts 28:26- 27; Rom 11:8). Each quotation is given as a comment on the rejection of God's word in Christ. The synoptic references are of particular interest; for they all occur in connection with the parable of the sower, which, like this present passage, anticipates widespread failure to make proper response to the words but which also, as here (v. 13), shows cause for hope. The holy seed of the vision finds its NT counterpart in the good soil of the parable.
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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keras said:
'God will make the world unliveable', does not happen until the end of the Millennium, as 2 Peter 3:13 and Rev 21 say.
2nd Peter 3:13 doesn't say that.

You see, teacher keras will say a BIble verse says something, and if you don't read it, you might actually think he has a point. He hasn't.

2Pe 3:13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

Nope, nothing about the earth being unlivable there.

What about Rev 21:3?

Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

This is after the Millennium and the second Resurrection!

This is over a thousand years after the end of the one 'seven'!

You see, teacher keras misapplies Bible verses to make the Bible say what he says it says. That is not how you should treat God's Word.
_________________________________

What God does to the earth during the one 'seven' requires healing.

The River From the Temple
Ezekiel 47:1 The man brought me back to the entrance to the temple, and I saw water coming out from under the threshold of the temple toward the east (for the temple faced east). The water was coming down from under the south side of the temple, south of the altar. 2 He then brought me out through the north gate and led me around the outside to the outer gate facing east, and the water was trickling from the south side.
3 As the man went eastward with a measuring line in his hand, he measured off a thousand cubits and then led me through water that was ankle- deep. 4 He measured off another thousand cubits and led me through water that was knee- deep. He measured off another thousand and led me through water that was up to the waist. 5 He measured off another thousand, but now it was a river that I could not cross, because the water had risen and was deep enough to swim in—a river that no one could cross. 6 He asked me, "Son of man, do you see this?"

Then he led me back to the bank of the river. 7 When I arrived there, I saw a great number of trees on each side of the river. 8 He said to me, "This water flows toward the eastern region and goes down into the Arabah, where it enters the Dead Sea. When it empties into the sea, the salty water there becomes fresh. 9 Swarms of living creatures will live wherever the river flows. There will be large numbers of fish, because this water flows there and makes the salt water fresh; so where the river flows everything will live. 10 Fishermen will stand along the shore; from En Gedi to En Eglaim there will be places for spreading nets. The fish will be of many kinds —like the fish of the Mediterranean Sea. 11 But the swamps and marshes will not become fresh; they will be left for salt. 12 Fruit trees of all kinds will grow on both banks of the river. Their leaves will not wither, nor will their fruit fail. Every month they will bear fruit, because the water from the sanctuary flows to them. Their fruit will serve for food and their leaves for healing."

After the desolations God unleashes, the world enters the Millennium on the barest of threads, and man is more rare than the gold in Ophir, which had finely refined gold. Only the cream of the crop is left, and they are not in good shape:

Isa 3:24 Instead of fragrance there will be a stench;
instead of a sash, a rope;
instead of well- dressed hair, baldness;
instead of fine clothing, sackcloth;
instead of beauty, branding.
25 Your men will fall by the sword,
your warriors in battle.
26 The gates of Zion will lament and mourn;
destitute, she will sit on the ground.


4:1 In that day seven women
will take hold of one man
and say, "We will eat our own food
and provide our own clothes;
only let us be called by your name.
Take away our disgrace!"
The Branch of the Lord


2 In that day the Branch of the Lord will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land will be the pride and glory of the survivors in Israel. 3 Those who are left in Zion, who remain in Jerusalem, will be called holy, all who are recorded among the living in Jerusalem.

We are not in Jerusalem. No verse says we are dropped out of the sky there on the Day of the Lord, nor that we are sheltered there during the Wrath of God - in which rabbi keras says God will kill us. Jerusalem is the camp of God's people in the Millennium; camps are temporary - they are not where you reside.
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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keras said:
Making Revelation 7 out to happen in two locations, is just a false construct done by those who have to fit their rapture to heaven theory somewhere.
The fact is that is that there is only ONE location for John.

The fact IS that John sees two sights.

God is fully capable of showing John distant places thousands of years away.

And nothing in Revelation says that God's Throne is suddenly where the 144,000 are!

In fact, if you actually look at Revelation 7, you see that John's vision is not from a person standing on the ground - John sees the whole of the earth. That vision is only something God can provide.

Rev 7:1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree.

So if rabbit keras would please provide the street address, city, state, country and mailing code for this location, we'll know where God suddenly transplants His Throne. Notice that rabbi keras doesn't have a hint of verse to say this happens - which goes against his own ultra-literal stance before that the NOWHERE in Rev 7 does it say God's Throne is in Heaven.

Rev 7:9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb.

Here, John is in the same place as he was before.

Did he change location? No. The previous vision was presented by God to John so He could show him what is to happen. Think of it as God's big screen TV. In verse 9, John, in verse 9, is in the same place where he was in chapter 4.

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.

God's Throne in Heaven is as unchanging as God's very nature.

Furthermore, the previous vision of the 144,000 is something God said He will show John. God can do that.
 

ATP

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Marcus O'Reillius said:
Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.
:)

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.
 

keras

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Marcus your whole premise is false and because you use abuse against anyone who challenges your beliefs, we have to wonder where you are coming from.

To say what happens in Rev 7, which is on earth as verses 1-3 plainly state, changes to a scene in heaven, without any indication of a change, is simply done by you just to fit your false rapture theory. There is no reason for this change, it does in fact, fit better with later prophesies for it to all be on earth.

I say Isaiah 30:26 means a CME sunstrike, you objection to that truth seems to be driven by fear that may be what actually happen and your cozy lifestyle will be sadly disrupted.
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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keras said:
I say Isaiah 30:26 means a CME sunstrike, you objection to that truth seems to be driven by fear that may be what actually happen and your cozy lifestyle will be sadly disrupted.
My objection to YOUR TRUTH is that the Bible doesn't say it - one, burns, and - two, happens on the Day of the Lord - as you do!

Isa 30:26 The moon will shine like the sun, and the sunlight will be seven times brighter, like the light of seven full days, when the Lord binds up the bruises of his people and heals the wounds he inflicted.

Figurative speech rabbi keras - contrasting the darkness of the Day of the Lord with the brightness when God heals the Jews of the wounds He has inflicted upon them for their unbelief in His Son.

So whose whole premise is false? You make a habit of starting with false premises!

The teacher who misuses Scripture or the one who adheres to it? You twist Scripture - we can't trust you to say what the Bible says. Your conclusions are without foundation and are false.
 

keras

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So now I am wasting my time with people who say the Bible, speaking about plain objects such as the sun, is just figurative?

And people who think a scroll can be read before the seals are removed?

The Day of the Lord's wrath will come, whether you like it or not. God has given us the true information, to gloss over it is plain stupidity.
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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Stupid is as stupid does - like saying a coronal mass ejection is going to burn a third of the earth when God says it's going to be on a day of healing.
 

keras

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Isaiah 30:26-28 The sun will shine with seven times its normal brightness, as the Lord Himself comes from afar, His anger blazing and His doom heavy. His tongue is a devouring fire as He sieves out the nations for destruction. On that Day He will heal and bind up the wounds inflicted upon His people.
This is far more than you try to downplay it to be. It is another description of the Sixth Seal and all the effects of these and the many other prophesies will be literally fulfilled by a massive CME.
Then as verse 29 says: the Lord's people will march to the Mountain of the Lord, that is; the Holy Land. Another refutation of the rapture theory.
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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keras said:
Isaiah 30:26-28 The sun will shine with seven times its normal brightness, as the Lord Himself comes from afar, His anger blazing and His doom heavy. His tongue is a devouring fire as He sieves out the nations for destruction. On that Day He will heal and bind up the wounds inflicted upon His people.
This is far more than you try to downplay it to be. It is another description of the Sixth Seal and all the effects of these and the many other prophesies will be literally fulfilled by a massive CME.
Then as verse 29 says: the Lord's people will march to the Mountain of the Lord, that is; the Holy Land. Another refutation of the rapture theory.
Having a brightly shining sun - which figuratively contrasts with the darkness of the Day of the Lord which does coincide with the sixth Seal - cannot be literally fulfilled by a MASSIVE coronal mass ejection.

That's just plain silly.

And while the Remnant Jews are brought to Mount Zion amidst all the desolation from three years of wrath and war, that hardly refutes the gathering up - which IS in Scripture. (Silly rabbi, this thread is for wrath not rapture.)
 

keras

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[SIZE=medium]Marcus, It seems that Bible prophecy is beyond your capability to comprehend. Let alone scientific data about our sun.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Isaiah 30:26 plainly states that one day the sun will emit an extremely bright light. It doesn’t say for how long this will last, but now we know quite a bit about the sun and its intermittent explosions of coronal mass. These ejections of superheated Hydrogen plasma flash brightly and then subside within minutes, as the mass races away from the sun. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]So what will happen, is the Lord will instigate an earth directed CME, Deuteronomy 32:3-35, at the precise moment that Iran goes to fire a nuke missile at Israel. Jeremiah 49:35 The initial flash of an Electro Magnetic Pulse will cause all weapons to explode or be neutralized. Hosea 2:18, Psalm 46:9[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]Then, as the mass of this CME approaches earth, the sun will be darkened and when it strikes the moon, it will glow bright red. Joel 2:31[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]All the graphically prophesied effects of the Day of the Lord’s wrath will literally be fulfilled. Believe it or deny Bible prophecy. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]As the rapture is foremost in the thinking of all those who are taken in by that false teaching, then proofs against it are fitting anywhere.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=medium]Re the remnant Jews, you still fail to see that the Lord's people are far more than just Jews. ​[/SIZE]