Incorrect. The peace treaty, the first five seals and the great tribulation all precede the sixth seal.keras said:
Matt 24:29-31 and 1 Thess 4:14-17 NIV are from the Word of God. What is the Word of God keras?keras said:
The Wrath of the Lord
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Marcus O'Reillius
Active Member
The Old Testament warnings of wrath are written to natural born Israel: the Jews who do not believe in Christ Jesus.
Quoting them so as to apply them to us, to make us fearful, is not beneficial, or even edifying. We are not to fear; Jesus has already conquered all, and He will save us - on the Cross, as He has done; when we accepted Him; and when He comes again and gathers us up to take us to where He is now.
Encourage one another with this good news - 1Th 4:18
Quoting them so as to apply them to us, to make us fearful, is not beneficial, or even edifying. We are not to fear; Jesus has already conquered all, and He will save us - on the Cross, as He has done; when we accepted Him; and when He comes again and gathers us up to take us to where He is now.
Encourage one another with this good news - 1Th 4:18
The first five seals are already open, history proves that. The peace treaty as per Daniel 9:27, cannot happen until there is a One World Govt led by one powerful man.ATP said:
Believing that Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Thess 4:14-17 are saying people will be taken to heaven, when that isn't what they say at all, proves your error.
The first describes the gathering of the elect to where Jesus is, namely Jerusalem and the second describes a meeting with Jesus as He descends to earth.
The rapture to heaven is a false theory that has deluded millions. It is in fact, a Satanic deception that has fooled people into becoming complacent and clueless about what is coming.
Unfortunately for your belief that you won't experience God's wrath, the prophets say otherwise. Not that any true Christian will be harmed by God's wrath, but they will have to be tested by it and provided they stand firm in their faith, will pass safely thru it. 1 Peter 4:12, Luke 21:34-35 [Note: 'escape' in verse 36 does NOT mean removal.]Marcus O'Reillius said:
So it is beneficial to know what God has planned, we should not be in the dark and to think that what is so extensively prophesied in our Bibles, doesn't apply to us, is 'head in the sand' denial.
Marcus O'Reillius
Active Member
What event constitutes the first Seal? Who is the horseman? (I have an educated opinion on both, as many do, but no one has proof.)keras said:
When exactly was the fifth Seal opened, and what evidence do you have for your "opinion"?
Marcus O'Reillius
Active Member
No on both accounts.keras said:
There has yet to be a united North, but as end-time Bible prophecy states the anti-Christ battles King of the South, and at the end, the King of the East enters the fray; it is NOT a one-world government. That Pyrrhic victory is not achieved until the end of the one 'seven' when all three major Kingdoms battle at Armageddon.
The Man of Lawlessness' authority to rule is coincidental with the time of the first half of the one 'seven'. His rise, therefore is simultaneous with its start. That's what is in the Bible.
Marcus O'Reillius
Active Member
While it doesn't say we go up to Heaven in either passage, neither does it say we're set back down to the earth.keras said:
So as far as proof of error, you have none. The only error is saying the absence of any evidence proves a negative conclusion to a hypothesis.
Another error is saying that where Jesus is in the Olivet Discourse is in Jerusalem when He comes. The Bible only says He comes on the clouds. In Daniel 7, Jesus returns to Heaven with the clouds.
Likewise, 1st Thessalonians 4 does not say Jesus is descending to the earth. All it says is that Jesus will come down from Heaven. Paul does not say He snatches us up only to throw us down and judge us, His Bride.
So the funny thing is, when we get past your blanket condemnation and hysterical warnings of dire consequences about the Rapture, to see what you think the Bible says, we find what you say it says has very little resemblance to what the Bible really does say.
And that's why I warn the reader not to follow rabbi keras.
The first five seals are not open. The book of Revelation is future prophecy. The peace treaty will happen at the first seal. A meeting with Jesus in THE AIR IN THE CLOUDS!! You are denying scripture..Rev 6:2 NIV I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.keras said:
But if we're not appointed to wrath and we are spared and delivered from it, how is that testing? Don't we have to go through trials to be tested? James 1:2-12 NIV :wacko:keras said:
Job 21:30 NIV that the wicked are spared from the day of calamity, that they are delivered from the day of wrath?
Dan 12:1-2 NIV "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered. 2Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
Matt 3:12 NIV His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
John 3:36 NIV Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them.
Rom 5:9 NIV Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!
Eph 2:3 NIV All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.
1 Thess 1:10 NIV and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.
1 Thess 5:9 NIV For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
I don't mind these disputes, it helps to sharpen me.
Re the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse: These have been sent to range over the earth. Zechariah 1:8-11, Zechariah 6:1-8 We have had wars, famines, diseases and economic problems aplenty for the last 2000 years, proving the first four seals were opened as John watched. In no way was Jesus the rider of the first horse, He doesn't have any weapon with Him at His Return.
Then the Fifth Seal was opened as well and Stephen was the first martyr. Many thousands have followed him, their souls cry out to be avenged.
But it is very evident that the Sixth Seal awaits opening, as the cosmic events described haven't happened yet.
Re testing: The sudden and shocking Day of the Lord's wrath WILL be a test. Will you stand firm in your faith in Jesus for His protection? Joel 3:32, Acts 1:21 say we must 'call out to the Lord' on that Day, not as all the secular people will do: hide under the crags and rocks, when the Lord arises to strike the world with terror. Isaiah 2:21 burning the ungodly with unquenchable fire. Matthew 3:12
Re the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse: These have been sent to range over the earth. Zechariah 1:8-11, Zechariah 6:1-8 We have had wars, famines, diseases and economic problems aplenty for the last 2000 years, proving the first four seals were opened as John watched. In no way was Jesus the rider of the first horse, He doesn't have any weapon with Him at His Return.
Then the Fifth Seal was opened as well and Stephen was the first martyr. Many thousands have followed him, their souls cry out to be avenged.
But it is very evident that the Sixth Seal awaits opening, as the cosmic events described haven't happened yet.
Re testing: The sudden and shocking Day of the Lord's wrath WILL be a test. Will you stand firm in your faith in Jesus for His protection? Joel 3:32, Acts 1:21 say we must 'call out to the Lord' on that Day, not as all the secular people will do: hide under the crags and rocks, when the Lord arises to strike the world with terror. Isaiah 2:21 burning the ungodly with unquenchable fire. Matthew 3:12
Remember what we discussed? Matt 24 and Rev 6 are in chronological order..5th Seal - Matt 24:9 NIV, Rev 6:9-11 NIV.keras said:
I don't think "waiting a little longer" means 2,000 years later. That seems silly. The Greek word for little is "mikros" which means small. The Greek word for longer is "chronos" which means time. They were waiting a "small amount of time". These "martyr's" are not the same martyr's in the past 2,000 years. Rev 6:9-11 is a separate group entirely. These martyr's have been slain specifically in the Great Tribulation, and they are awaiting the first resurrection. From the beginning of the Great Tribulation in the middle of the 70th week to when rapture occurs is a "small amount of time" as specified in the Greek language.
Rev 6:9-11 NIV When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.
Believers and nonbelievers will have different reactions to the Day of the Lord. Believers will be happy because rapture will take them away, nonbelievers are the one's that will be shocked 1 Thess 5:4 NIV. There are two different reactions here..keras said:
Luke 21:25-28 NIV “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
Yes, Matthew 24 and Rev 6 can be read as a parallel prophecy. Jesus gave it circa 30 AD and John, circa 95 AD. They commenced as Jesus ascended to heaven. The quotes I gave from Zechariah prove it. Do not think that because these horsemen are described differently, they aren't the same. That belief is sheer denial and leaves the Z. prophecies without explanation.ATP said:
You are misreading the 'small amount of time'. It is referring to the time those souls: already dead people, must wait until their deaths are avenged. Also until the rest of those that will be killed during the GT, join them. I see this 'calling out of the martyrs' as happening as Jesus opens the Sixth Seal, an event to happen very soon.
Believers and nonbelievers will have different reactions to the Day of the Lord. Believers will be happy because rapture will take them away, nonbelievers are the one's that will be shocked 1 Thess 5:4 NIV. There are two different reactions here.. Quote ATP.
Two reactions, correct, but no rapture removal. Those Christians who have thought Jesus would lift them out of any kind of disaster, without testing their faith first, will panic and deny God along with all the secular peoples. Those Christians who know the Bible prophesies, will call out to the Lord for His promised protection. Acts 1:21
The Lord is a sure protection in the Day of trouble and He knows all those who trust in Him. Nahum 1:7
But if we are not appointed to wrath and are delivered from it, how is that testing keras???keras said:
It makes no sense or rational to think ONLY Christians at the time of the Tribulation would have to go through it, when all others from the time of Christ would not have to. God does NOT have different rewards for Christians...it is all the same, and we believers will NOT precede those who are dead in Christ. At that time, we will ALL inherit eternal life, we will ALL be changed in the twinkling of an eye, when He returns.
Actually, God does have different rewards, different crowns for us. I don't think every believer will be rewarded all five crowns. I think it all depends on what our gifts are and how we used them...
1 - Crown 1 - Crown of Righteousness— Loved the Lord's Appearing - 2 Tim 4:8 NIV
2 - Crown 2 - Incorruptible Crown— Disciplined Bodies / Self-Control - 1 Cor 9:25-27 NIV
3 - Crown 3 - Crown of Life— Endured Patiently through Trials - James 1:12 NIV, Rev 2:10 NIV
4 - Crown 4 - Crown of Glory— Godly Leaders Who were Examples to Flock - 1 Pet 5:2-4 NIV
5 - Crown 5 - Crown of Rejoicing— Soul Winners Crown - 1 Thess 2:19 NIV, Dan 12:3 NIV
1 - Crown 1 - Crown of Righteousness— Loved the Lord's Appearing - 2 Tim 4:8 NIV
2 - Crown 2 - Incorruptible Crown— Disciplined Bodies / Self-Control - 1 Cor 9:25-27 NIV
3 - Crown 3 - Crown of Life— Endured Patiently through Trials - James 1:12 NIV, Rev 2:10 NIV
4 - Crown 4 - Crown of Glory— Godly Leaders Who were Examples to Flock - 1 Pet 5:2-4 NIV
5 - Crown 5 - Crown of Rejoicing— Soul Winners Crown - 1 Thess 2:19 NIV, Dan 12:3 NIV
What you and others don't understand, is how the Lord's Day of vengeance and wrath will happen. It is a Day separate from and years before the Return.ATP said:
Despite protestations to the contrary by some, that Day will be a Coronal Mass Ejection from the sun. This worldwide disaster will literally fulfill all the detailed prophesies about the Day of wrath. I have ample scripture and scientific data to prove this. Ezekiel 7:1-19
When this CME is blasted out toward earth, the initial flash and Electro Magnetic Pulse will arrive in 8 minutes. It will destroy the missiles that Iran was about to fire at Israel. Jeremiah 49:35 But the main mass of superheated Hydrogen plasma travelling at 3-5 million mph, takes approx. 24 hours to arrive here. It will be during this period that the test comes; do people panic or do they 'look up and see their redemption drawing nigh? Luke 21:25-28 Note that verse 27 says....coming IN a cloud....Jesus, who instigates this judgement/punishment, will not come down to earth then. Psalm 11:4-6 tells us He stays in heaven, raining fiery coals down upon the ungodly. Psalm 18:11, Habakkuk 3:4
People will be terrified at the frightful sight of the approaching CME. Jeremiah 6:24-26, Jeremiah 30:6-7, Ezekiel 21:5-7a, Zephaniah 3:14-16
Ezekiel 6:11-14 The Lord says: show your sorrow for your abominable ways, My people, for many will die from the judgement I will bring, thus I will spend My anger. You will know the I am the Lord, when all the killed fall about their altars of idolatry. I shall stretch out My hand to make the entire holy Land a desolate and deserted waste.
No that's wrong. The Day of the Lord comes after rapture in Rev 7:9-17 NIV and is specifically inside the last 3.5 years of the 70th week. It even extends an extra 30 days Dan 12:11 NIV. The Day of the Lord is God's wrath of trumpets and bowls...keras said:
Rev 11:18 NIV The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small— and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”
Rev 14:10 NIV they, too, will drink the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
Rev 14:19 NIV The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath.
Rev 15:1 NIV I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God's wrath is completed.
Rev 15:7 NIV Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever.
Rev 16:1 NIV Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go, pour out the seven bowls of God's wrath on the earth.”
Rev 16:19 NIV The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath.
Right, He won't come down to earth yet because Luke 21 is rapture scripture keras.keras said:
There will be signs in the sun, moon, stars and earthquake.
Cosmic disturbances precede the Day of the Lord..Joel 2:30-31 NIV, Joel 3:14-15 NIV, Acts 2:19-20 NIV, 2 Pet 3:10 NIV....
Isa 13:10 NIV The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light.
Isa 34:4 NIV All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree.
Joel 2:30-31 NIV I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke. 31The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
Joel 3:14-15 NIV Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. 15The sun and moon will be darkened, and the stars no longer shine.
Matt 24:29 NIV “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
Mark 13:24 NIV "But in those days, following that distress, "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;
Luke 21:25-28 NIV “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
Acts 2:19-20 NIV I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. 20The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
2 Pet 3:10 NIV But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
Rev 6:12-14 NIV I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
Well, why are you bothered about earthly disasters, if you believe you won't be here to experience them?
Calling Luke 21 and Rev 7 rapture scriptures, shows your fixation to that false theory. Nowhere do either of those chapters say anyone would be taken to heaven.
Typing up verses that prove nothing of your beliefs is wasted on me, I prefer to read my unbiased Revised English Bible translation.
Calling Luke 21 and Rev 7 rapture scriptures, shows your fixation to that false theory. Nowhere do either of those chapters say anyone would be taken to heaven.
Typing up verses that prove nothing of your beliefs is wasted on me, I prefer to read my unbiased Revised English Bible translation.
Marcus O'Reillius
Active Member
Hubris.
Nowhere is the Seal/Scroll chronology of Revelation chapters 4-11 (exclusive of 11:1-13) does it say John is taken to the exact places where the visions are for God to show him what will come to take place.
Furthermore, this "fixation", as you term the Great Multitude with palm branches before the God of Heaven and Lamb before His Throne; is not described as happening on the earth. No. The only place John, who has a writing kit and acts as a court reporter, has seen the Father on the Throne is in Heaven; the same Heaven he was transported to in verse 4:1.
You have shown no evidence God resides on the very earth upon which He is about to devastate with physical desolations - which WE escape just as Noah and Lot escaped the destruction that God unleashed upon the wicked of their time.
All you can do rabbi keras is misappropriate passages for stubborn Israel who doesn't believe in Jesus and apply them to us. The level of disgust I feel at how you mistakenly make the Bible say what YOU want it to say is beyond any contempt you feel for the "rapture cult" you rail against fixedly.
Nowhere is the Seal/Scroll chronology of Revelation chapters 4-11 (exclusive of 11:1-13) does it say John is taken to the exact places where the visions are for God to show him what will come to take place.
Furthermore, this "fixation", as you term the Great Multitude with palm branches before the God of Heaven and Lamb before His Throne; is not described as happening on the earth. No. The only place John, who has a writing kit and acts as a court reporter, has seen the Father on the Throne is in Heaven; the same Heaven he was transported to in verse 4:1.
You have shown no evidence God resides on the very earth upon which He is about to devastate with physical desolations - which WE escape just as Noah and Lot escaped the destruction that God unleashed upon the wicked of their time.
All you can do rabbi keras is misappropriate passages for stubborn Israel who doesn't believe in Jesus and apply them to us. The level of disgust I feel at how you mistakenly make the Bible say what YOU want it to say is beyond any contempt you feel for the "rapture cult" you rail against fixedly.
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