Sabbath braker?

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ewq1938

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The Barrd said:
You do realize that Jesus is the Creator, yes?

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

In other words, Jesus is actually the God Who wrote the Law on the Tables of Stone. It is His law. He was not telling us about people breaking the law without guilt, such a notion is ludicrous. He was explaining how what the people in question were not breaking the law.

That's wrong. The examples broke the law, he plainly said so. "Mat 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?" Do you know what profaning the law means? "which was not lawful for him to eat" That one is pretty clear...not lawful means he broke the law.



Again, I say....this was NOT a defense.
This is a bold statement of Lordship.

It's both.

The one thing Jesus could never have been, was "above the law".
That's also wrong. Being Lord of the Sabbath means he is above the Sabbath laws.

If He had broken the law, He would be a sinner.

That's not true in this case and the two other cases he mentioned.

You do know that the Biblical definition of sin is transgression of the law? It's not talking about getting a ticket for speeding....the law here would be the Law of God...i.e. The Ten Commandments.
Transgression of the law is not limited to the ten commandments but any law given.


You do know that the New Covenant, like the Old one, does include God's law, right?
The new does not have all the same laws the old had.



I'm not sure where you are getting this "different religion" from. Or didn't you know that Christianity is rooted in Judaism?
Yes rooted but they are two different religions and Judaism is now pagan because they do not worship the true God.

I will never understand how people don't get that...

I don't understand how some people don't get many things such as the Christian Sabbath.
 

ewq1938

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The Barrd said:
Do you honestly not know that the root that bears you is Judaism?

The root is God not a religion that left God long ago. You misunderstand the verses you posted.
 

ewq1938

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The Barrd said:
Of course, Jesus never broke the law. The idea borders on blaspheme, if it isn't the thing itself.

lol, so much misunderstandings. Christ broke the law! He did it in a way that left him blameless just as the Priests broke the law and were blameless, just as David broke the law and was blameless. Don't defend incorrect beliefs just because you've always believed them, learn the truth about what happened and grow in scriptural knowledge. In other words toss out the rotten milk and eat fresh meat!
 

Barrd

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ewq1938 said:
The root is God not a religion that left God long ago. You misunderstand the verses you posted.
I'm pretty sure I understood the verses I posted. I'm just as sure that you do not.

However, I'm not going to continue to argue with you about it.

I think it is very sad that you see Jesus as a sinner, and that you don't understand that Christianity is the natural outgrowth of Judaism.

I pray that, one day, your eyes might be opened.

Meantime, we've wandered a bit from the original topic of this thread, which is Sabbath keeping.

I'm considering the little side discussion between you and I as to whether or not Jesus broke the law to be closed.

Fini....
 

ATP

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The Barrd said:
Do you honestly not know that the root that bears you is Judaism?
C'mon...most of you know Paul's letters better than you know the words of Christ, Himself.
You don't remember this passage?

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
The root comes from God Barrd, the Holy Spirit that indwells believers. What does "enter my rest" mean here?...only those who believe enter His rest Heb 4:3 ESV...

John 10:26 NIV but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

Rom 11:20 NIV Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Rom 11:23 NIV And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Heb 3:16-19 NIV Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

Heb 4:3 ESV For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest,’” although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.
 

ewq1938

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The Barrd said:
I'm pretty sure I understood the verses I posted. I'm just as sure that you do not.

However, I'm not going to continue to argue with you about it.

I think it is very sad that you see Jesus as a sinner, and that you don't understand that Christianity is the natural outgrowth of Judaism.

I've corrected your error many times that it isn't always sinful to break the law. Jesus is not a sinner! You are intentionally misrepresenting my position to make it look wrong. That is an improper and unchristian debate technique. It also makes your position weaker because you have to stoop to this level of debate.

I pray that, one day, your eyes might be opened.

I say the same to you.

Meantime, we've wandered a bit from the original topic of this thread, which is Sabbath keeping.

No wandering so far. Jesus did not always keep the Sabbath and he was not sinful in doing that despite it being a law back then.


I'm considering the little side discussion between you and I as to whether or not Jesus broke the law to be closed.
Closed and proven true. A righteous rebel that guy!
 

Barrd

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1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

What is sin?
"sin is the transgression of the law."

John is not allowing for mitigating circumstances here. He is not saying "except when there is a good reason," or any such thing.
He flatly states that "sin is the transgression of the law." Period.

And, speaking of Jesus, he says:
"And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure."

Now, if Jesus had ever transgressed the law, for any reason, He would no longer be pure. There is no way around it.

What? You didn't get it the first time? No problem. The Beloved Apostle repeats:

"And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin."

What is sin? Sin is trangression of the law, no ifs ands or buts to it. There is no way anyone, including Jesus Himself, could transgress the law and be without sin. Period.
If He had done so, He would no longer be pure. There is no way to argue that point. No way at all.

And if He had sullied Himself with sin, He would no longer be a fit sacrifice for sin. Period.

Anyone who truly believes that Jesus could break the law, for any reason, does not understand Who Jesus is, and what He came to do.
 

ewq1938

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The Barrd said:
1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

What is sin?
"sin is the transgression of the law."

John is not allowing for mitigating circumstances here. He is not saying "except when there is a good reason," or any such thing.
He flatly states that "sin is the transgression of the law." Period.

And, speaking of Jesus, he says:
"And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure."

Now, if Jesus had ever transgressed the law, for any reason, He would no longer be pure. There is no way around it.

What? You didn't get it the first time? No problem. The Beloved Apostle repeats:

"And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin."

What is sin? Sin is trangression of the law, no ifs ands or buts to it. There is no way anyone, including Jesus Himself, could transgress the law and be without sin. Period.
If He had done so, He would no longer be pure. There is no way to argue that point. No way at all.

And if He had sullied Himself with sin, He would no longer be a fit sacrifice for sin. Period.

Anyone who truly believes that Jesus could break the law, for any reason, does not understand Who Jesus is, and what He came to do.

You are still wrong on this. I have explained it enough times by now so I won't bother to explain any further how someone can profane the law without blame.
 

Barrd

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ewq1938 said:
You are still wrong on this. I have explained it enough times by now so I won't bother to explain any further how someone can profane the law without blame.
And I still think that you are mistaken.
I have to admit....the idea that Jesus broke the law is a new one on me.

53 years a Christian...and I never heard that one before...
 

mjrhealth

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What you and some dont understand Bard, is Jesus could never brake tegh law, even when He did, why?/ Simply He did what God would do, He walked in love, Love fullfills the law. The Pharisees like some, where out to keep the letter of the law, even to the extent of letting people die rather than heal them Christ came to show them how wrong they where. So on teh Sabbath when no man could work, Christ did the opposite, but the works He did where not His own they where the works of God, He healed the sick, set the prisoners free, caused the lame to walk, healed the leppers, caused teh blind to see, yet those pharisees who where blinded by the law could not see, all they saw was the law beibg broken by "this man how dare He trangress teh aw, how dare he sit with the sinners, how dare He speak against us", teh yhated Him because He was undoung" al ltheir good works", which where not good because it was all "unbelief" disobedience".

Hos 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
Hos 6:7 But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.

Yet still here we have "christians" offering sacrifices.

Unbelief as I said before, is what is keeping so many christians away from God, it is pure disobedience.

In all His Love
 

StanJ

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mjrhealth said:
What you and some dont understand Bard, is Jesus could never brake tegh law, even when He did, why?/ Simply He did what God would do, He walked in love, Love fullfills the law. The Pharisees like some, where out to keep the letter of the law, even to the extent of letting people die rather than heal them Christ came to show them how wrong they where. So on teh Sabbath when no man could work, Christ did the opposite, but the works He did where not His own they where the works of God, He healed the sick, set the prisoners free, caused the lame to walk, healed the leppers, caused teh blind to see, yet those pharisees who where blinded by the law could not see, all they saw was the law beibg broken by "this man how dare He trangress teh aw, how dare he sit with the sinners, how dare He speak against us", teh yhated Him because He was undoung" al ltheir good works", which where not good because it was all "unbelief" disobedience".

Hos 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
Hos 6:7 But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.

Yet still here we have "christians" offering sacrifices.

Unbelief as I said before, is what is keeping so many christians away from God, it is pure disobedience.

In all His Love
IMO, what Jesus did was NOT works and He made that clear.

I don't really understand why you say unbelief is keeping Christians from God? One either believes and IS a Christian or one does not believe and is not a Christian. Jesus confirmed this in Matt 6:24 (NIV)
 

Barrd

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mjrhealth said:
What you and some dont understand Bard, is Jesus could never brake tegh law, even when He did, why?/ Simply He did what God would do, He walked in love, Love fullfills the law. The Pharisees like some, where out to keep the letter of the law, even to the extent of letting people die rather than heal them Christ came to show them how wrong they where. So on teh Sabbath when no man could work, Christ did the opposite, but the works He did where not His own they where the works of God, He healed the sick, set the prisoners free, caused the lame to walk, healed the leppers, caused teh blind to see, yet those pharisees who where blinded by the law could not see, all they saw was the law beibg broken by "this man how dare He trangress teh aw, how dare he sit with the sinners, how dare He speak against us", teh yhated Him because He was undoung" al ltheir good works", which where not good because it was all "unbelief" disobedience".

Hos 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
Hos 6:7 But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.

Yet still here we have "christians" offering sacrifices.

Unbelief as I said before, is what is keeping so many christians away from God, it is pure disobedience.

In all His Love
I thought I had you in my ignore list.
Ahh, well...again, you have made a false accusations against me.
Here is what I have actually said:


ewq1938, on 02 Oct 2015 - 12:40 AM, said:

That's where we disagree. Christ knew he was breaking the law, and used two examples showing why he could without blame then lastly said he was above the law of the Sabbath anyways. It was an impressive and strong defense.

Mat 12:10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
Mat 12:11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
Mat 12:12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

This is not a defense. This is a simple statement. It is lawful to do well on the sabbath days. It always had been. Even His accusers took care of their animals on the sabbath.

Mar 3:1 And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man there which had a withered hand.
Mar 3:2 And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him.
Mar 3:3 And he saith unto the man which had the withered hand, Stand forth.
Mar 3:4 And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.
Mar 3:5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.
Mar 3:6 And the Pharisees went forth, and straightway took counsel with the Herodians against him, how they might destroy him.

And again, Jesus did not defend Himself...it was always lawful to save life on the sabbath.

Luk 14:1 And it came to pass, as he went into the house of one of the chief Pharisees to eat bread on the sabbath day, that they watched him.
Luk 14:2 And, behold, there was a certain man before him which had the dropsy.
Luk 14:3 And Jesus answering spake unto the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath day?
Luk 14:4 And they held their peace. And he took him, and healed him, and let him go;
Luk 14:5 And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?
Luk 14:6 And they could not answer him again to these things.

They could not answer Him because they knew He told the truth. If they had continued to accuse Him at that point, they would also be accusing themselves.

Luk 13:10 And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath.
Luk 13:11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.
Luk 13:12 And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity.
Luk 13:13 And he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God.
Luk 13:14 And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day.
Luk 13:15 The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering?
Luk 13:16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?
Luk 13:17 And when he had said these things, all his adversaries were ashamed: and all the people rejoiced for all the glorious things that were done by him.

This is perhaps the best example of what we're talking about. Jesus never broke the law, He upheld it. And He rightly named His accusers as hypcrites...

Mar 2:25 And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?
Mar 2:26 How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?
Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

This is obviously the incident you are talking about. You seem to think this is a defense...but notice what He says here:
"The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath" Now, it was Jesus, Himself, Who wrote the Ten Commandments in the first place. Here He is telling us the purpose of the 4th Commandment...the Sabbath was never meant to be a burden. The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. Are you a member of the species known as "mankind"? The Sabbath was made for you!

And what else does He say?
"Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath."
This is definitely NOT a defense.
Rather, this is a bold statement of Lordship.
The Lord of the Universe, is also Lord of the Sabbath.
Because I love and worship Him, I will obey Him...and keep His Holy Sabbath.

You probably ought to read what people have said before you criticize, Mj...
Stuff like this is the reason I had you on ignore in the first place.
 

justaname

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This thread has been cleaned up...lets keep it on topic now.

Thanks!
 

mjrhealth

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One either believes and IS a Christian or one does not believe and is not a Christian.
One can be a christian and still not have faith to believe in the works Christ did, thats what this topic is all about..
 

StanJ

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mjrhealth said:
One can be a christian and still not have faith to believe in the works Christ did, thats what this topic is all about..
I disagree. James said devils believe yet tremble, so no I don't accept that. Real believers/Christians believe what God says in His written word.
 

mjrhealth

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so no I don't accept that. Real believers/Christians believe what God says in His written word.
So than if this be true, why are we discuuings OSAS, why are some trying to keep the law that was not given to them, why are some keeping teh sabbath when Christ has become our rest, why is it that i can find so many that belive the bible yet cant find one that believes God....If what Jesus did was accepted why dont people believe they are saved....

You know Jesus came to fulfill teh law, you know love fulfills the law, you know God is love, you know that Jesus did teh works of God which is all Love, you know why we who beleiev are saved... Its Love.

In all His Love
 

StanJ

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mjrhealth said:
So than if this be true, why are we discuuings OSAS, why are some trying to keep the law that was not given to them, why are some keeping teh sabbath when Christ has become our rest, why is it that i can find so many that belive the bible yet cant find one that believes God....If what Jesus did was accepted why dont people believe they are saved....

You know Jesus came to fulfill teh law, you know love fulfills the law, you know God is love, you know that Jesus did teh works of God which is all Love, you know why we who beleiev are saved... Its Love.

In all His Love
Because it IS truth and OSAS is not. Seems pretty simple to me.
False teaching has existed from the beginning of time. The apostles and Jesus spent a lot of time refuting it and as His followers, we are to "rightly divide" the word of truth and do the same thing.

God is definitely LOVE, but men are not and sadly far from it.

as David said, "Thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not SIN against thee."