ANALYSIS OF MATTHEW 24:12-13 - WHY IT DISPROVES OSAS

ATP · Jan 31, 2016

Phoneman777 said:
If at any time we reach out and snatch the chisel out of His hand and say "no more", we are no longer surrendered to His authority and continued refusal to surrender again to His authority will result in the same fate of the Unmerciful Servant - the reinstatement of the former penalty.

Well, they won't suffer the same fate because the saints will persevere. Post 374 and 375 confirms the perseverance of the saints.

Psalm 121:1-8 NIV I lift up my eyes to the mountains—where does my help come from? 2My help comes from the Lord, the Maker of heaven and earth. 3He will not let your foot slip—he who watches over you will not slumber; 4indeed, he who watches over Israel will neither slumber nor sleep. 5The Lord watches over you—the Lord is your shade at your right hand; 6the sun will not harm you by day, nor the moon by night. 7The Lord will keep you from all harm—he will watch over your life; 8the Lord will watch over your coming and going both now and forevermore.

Phoneman777 said:
God's love is unconditional, but His salvation is conditional

No that's wrong. God's salvation is love. Jesus died on the cross out of love for mankind.

Rom 5:16 NIV Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Phoneman777 · Jan 31, 2016

ATP said:
Well, they won't suffer the same fate because the saints will persevere. Post 374 and 375 confirms the perseverance of the saints.

Psalm 121:1-8 NIV I lift up my eyes to the mountains—where does my help come from? 2My help comes from the Lord, the Maker of heaven and earth. 3He will not let your foot slip—he who watches over you will not slumber; 4indeed, he who watches over Israel will neither slumber nor sleep. 5The Lord watches over you—the Lord is your shade at your right hand; 6the sun will not harm you by day, nor the moon by night. 7The Lord will keep you from all harm—he will watch over your life; 8the Lord will watch over your coming and going both now and forevermore.

No that's wrong. God's salvation is love. Jesus died on the cross out of love for mankind.

Rom 5:16 NIV Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

ATP, OSAS defines salvation as God not changing me, just His opinion of the sin that remains in me. "I change not" says the Most High. No, ATP, God credits me with Jesus' perfection ONLY as I remain surrendered to the Holy Spirit's chiseling of my imperfect character, to Whom my belief in Jesus Christ has led me to surrender my heart.

"Hereby we do know that we know Him IF we keep His commandments. He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments is a liar and the truth is no in him."

Yes, the saints persevere, but not in committing sin, but in overcoming their defective characters through the blood of Jesus.

ATP · Jan 31, 2016

Phoneman777 said:
ATP, OSAS defines salvation as God not changing me, just His opinion of the sin that remains in me. "I change not" says the Most High.

No, that's wrong. The devil has convinced you that saints love sin, because he is the accuser and the father of lies. I would hate to see you follow a false doctrine because of an incorrect definition. OSAS defines salvation as progressive sanctification and saints persevering because God's grace never leaves them. We stop sinning because of progressive sanctification....

The difference between a sinning unbeliever and a sinning believer is that one loves his sin while the other hates it. The believer who stumbles in his walk with the Lord regrets it, confesses it, wishes to never do it again and seeks to appropriate God’s power and grace to avoid it. He doesn’t consider how much he can sin and still be considered a Christian. Rather, he considers how he can avoid even the appearance of sin in the future..http://www.gotquestions.org/sin-Christian.html

Phoneman777 said:
"Hereby we do know that we know Him IF we keep His commandments. He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments is a liar and the truth is no in him."

And that's just what we do. You would have to get past your judgmental state of the saints first before you start listening...

John 13:34-35 NIV “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

John 15:12 NIV My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.

John 15:17 NIV This is my command: Love each other.

Gal 5:6 NIV For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

Gal 5:14 NIV For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

1 Tim 1:3-7 NIV As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer 4or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work—which is by faith. 5The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6Some have departed from these and have turned to meaningless talk. 7They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

1 John 3:23 NIV And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

1 John 4:21 NIV And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

2 John 1:5-6 NIV And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. 6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

Phoneman777 said:
Yes, the saints persevere, but not in committing sin, but in overcoming their defective characters through the blood of Jesus.

Now you're getting it!

Phoneman777 · Feb 1, 2016

ATP said:
No, that's wrong. The devil has convinced you that saints love sin, because he is the accuser and the father of lies. I would hate to see you follow a false doctrine because of an incorrect definition. OSAS defines salvation as progressive sanctification and saints persevering because God's grace never leaves them. We stop sinning because of progressive sanctification....

The difference between a sinning unbeliever and a sinning believer is that one loves his sin while the other hates it. The believer who stumbles in his walk with the Lord regrets it, confesses it, wishes to never do it again and seeks to appropriate God’s power and grace to avoid it. He doesn’t consider how much he can sin and still be considered a Christian. Rather, he considers how he can avoid even the appearance of sin in the future..http://www.gotquestions.org/sin-Christian.html

And that's just what we do. You would have to get past your judgmental state of the saints first before you start listening...

John 13:34-35 NIV “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

John 15:12 NIV My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.

John 15:17 NIV This is my command: Love each other.

Gal 5:6 NIV For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

Gal 5:14 NIV For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

1 Tim 1:3-7 NIV As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer 4or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work—which is by faith. 5The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6Some have departed from these and have turned to meaningless talk. 7They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

1 John 3:23 NIV And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

1 John 4:21 NIV And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

2 John 1:5-6 NIV And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. 6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

Now you're getting it!

ATP, after we accept Jesus and receive Justification, if He showed us how unholy we all are, we would bolt and run away from Him. (John 16:12 KJV) Therefore, He reveals to us our character defects a little at a time during the process of Sanctification. Sooner or later a cherished defect will be revealed to us and if we refuse to allow HIm to chisel it away from our character, we are no longer yeilded to Him, but another power and if we cling to that cherished sin, we will be consumed along with it. There is no such thing as OSAS.

"Know ye not to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom you obey, whether sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness." (Romans 6:16 KJV)

ATP · Feb 2, 2016

Phoneman777 said:
and if we cling to that cherished sin, we will be consumed along with it. There is no such thing as OSAS.

What you're describing is a nonbeliever.
Perseverance is perseverance.
It is impossible for a believer to continue sinning..Rom 6:14 NIV, 1 John 3:6 NIV, 1 John 3:9 NIV, 1 John 5:18 NIV
I think what you're having an issue with is the testimony of the saints..1 John 5:9-14 NIV, Psa 21:4 NIV

Phoneman777 · Feb 3, 2016

ATP said:
What you're describing is a nonbeliever.
Perseverance is perseverance.
It is impossible for a believer to continue sinning..Rom 6:14 NIV, 1 John 3:6 NIV, 1 John 3:9 NIV, 1 John 5:18 NIV
I think what you're having an issue with is the testimony of the saints..1 John 5:9-14 NIV, Psa 21:4 NIV

No, ATP, sin is breaking the law and any believer who turns from God and breaks the law and refuses to repent will be lost. I'm sorry, but there is no such thing as OSAS, brother - what determines whether you are a servant of righteousness or sin is your actions. That is why Revelation says that we are judged "by our works", not by our profession. Lest you think this is salvation by works, no man has ever done righteously without Jesus enthroned on his heart empowering him to do righteously and giving him credit for what He has done.

ATP · Feb 3, 2016

Phoneman777 said:
No, ATP, sin is breaking the law and any believer who turns from God and breaks the law and refuses to repent will be lost.

Right, but the term "lost" in scripture only describes nonbelievers who haven't come to faith yet. Believers will repent because of the perseverance of the saints...

Matt 18:12-14 NIV “What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

Luke 19:9-10 NIV Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

John 10:25-30 NIV Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

John 17:12 NIV While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

John 18:8-9 NIV Jesus answered, “I told you that I am he. If you are looking for me, then let these men go.” 9This happened so that the words he had spoken would be fulfilled: “I have not lost one of those you gave me.”

1 Cor 15:12-19 NIV But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

1 Pet 2:24-25 NIV “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.” 25For “you were like sheep going astray,” but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

Phoneman777 said:
what determines whether you are a servant of righteousness or sin is your actions. That is why Revelation says that we are judged "by our works", not by our profession. Lest you think this is salvation by works, no man has ever done righteously without Jesus enthroned on his heart empowering him to do righteously and giving him credit for what He has done.

I agree with your statement here. So why do you believe a saint can lose his salvation if the end result is perseverance?

Phoneman777 · Feb 4, 2016

ATP said:
Right, but the term "lost" in scripture only describes nonbelievers who haven't come to faith yet. Believers will repent because of the perseverance of the saints...

Matt 18:12-14 NIV “What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

Luke 19:9-10 NIV Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

John 10:25-30 NIV Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

John 17:12 NIV While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

John 18:8-9 NIV Jesus answered, “I told you that I am he. If you are looking for me, then let these men go.” 9This happened so that the words he had spoken would be fulfilled: “I have not lost one of those you gave me.”

1 Cor 15:12-19 NIV But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

1 Pet 2:24-25 NIV “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.” 25For “you were like sheep going astray,” but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

I agree with your statement here. So why do you believe a saint can lose his salvation if the end result is perseverance?

Of course people who accept Jesus can be lost. Can an enemy of Christ recieve from God and impart to others agape? No. Therefore, the "saints" of Matthew 24:12 KJV once had hot, living agape but they allowed sin to destroy it, leaving it cold and dead. No one goes to heaven with cold, dead agape.

ATP · Feb 4, 2016

Phoneman777 said:
Of course people who accept Jesus can be lost.

But scripture says the opposite. Scripture says only non believers are lost.

Phoneman777 said:
Can an enemy of Christ recieve from God and impart to others agape? No. Therefore, the "saints" of Matthew 24:12 KJV once had hot, living agape but they allowed sin to destroy it, leaving it cold and dead. No one goes to heaven with cold, dead agape.

contradict / verb (used with object)
1. to assert the contrary or opposite of; deny directly and categorically.
2. to speak contrary to the assertions of: to contradict oneself.
3. (of an action or event) to imply a denial of: His way of life contradicts his stated principles.
4. Obsolete. to speak or declare against; oppose.

Neither present nor future will be able to separate the elect from agape love..

John 17:26 NIV I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the (agape) love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."

Rom 8:35 ESV Who shall separate us from the (agape) love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?

Rom 8:38-39 ESV / Rev 20:14 NIV For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the (agape) love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom 11:28-29 NIV As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are (agape) loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

2 Cor 5:14-15 NIV For Christ's (agape) love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

Col 1:3-5 NIV We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, 4 because we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the (agape) love you have for all the saints--5 the faith and (agape) love that spring from the hope that is stored up for you in heaven and that you have already heard about in the word of truth, the gospel

Jude 1:1 NIV Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, To those who have been called, who are (agape) loved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:

Rev 1:5-6 NIV and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who (agape) loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

ATP · Feb 4, 2016

Phoneman777 said:
Of course people who accept Jesus can be lost. Can an enemy of Christ recieve from God and impart to others agape? No. Therefore, the "saints" of Matthew 24:12 KJV once had hot, living agape but they allowed sin to destroy it, leaving it cold and dead. No one goes to heaven with cold, dead agape.

Does Matt. 24:13 conflict with free grace salvation and the believer’s security?

“But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved” (Matt 24:13).

The word “saved” must always be understand in its context. Saved from what and by what means? “Saved” is the Greek sozo which may refer to any kind of deliverance and should often be simply translated “delivered.” It can refer to physical deliverance or to some kind of spiritual deliverance, but the context is the determining factor. In point of fact, this passage is speaking about physical deliverance or the survival of those who last through the judgments of the tribulation. Note the comments below from the Bible Knowledge Commentary.

24:9-14 (Mark 13:9-13; Luke 21:12-19). Jesus began His words (Matt. 24:9) with a time word, Then. At the middle point of the seven-year period preceding Christ’s second coming, great distress will begin to be experienced by Israel. The Antichrist, who will have risen to power in the world and will have made a protective treaty with Israel, will break his agreement at that time (Dan. 9:27). He will bring great persecution on Israel (Dan. 7:25) and even establish his own center of worship in the temple in Jerusalem (2 Thes. 2:3-4). This will result in the death of many Jews (Matt. 24:9) and many people departing from the faith. Believing Jews will be betrayed by nonbelievers (v. 10), and many will be deceived by rising false prophets (cf. v. 5; Rev. 13:11-15). Wickedness will increase, causing the love of most people (for the Lord) to grow cold.

Those who are believers and who survive until the end of that period of time will be saved, that is, delivered (Matt. 24:13). This does not refer to a personal self-effort at endurance that results in one’s eternal salvation, but to physical deliverance of those who trust in the Savior during the Tribulation. The endurance, then, is physical survival. While many will be martyred, a few will make to the end. Those who endure through the awful events of the Tribulation will be alive or delivered by Messiah when he returns to earth. This is not a reference to eternal salvation from sin, but rather the deliverance of survivors at the end of the Tribulation as stated in Romans 11:26 where the Deliver will save the nation Israel from its persecutors. Many will not endure to the end in that they will be martyred for their faith as described in Revelation 7:9-17.

https://bible.org/question/does-matt-2413-conflict-free-grace-salvation-and-believer%E2%80%99s-security

Phoneman777 · Feb 6, 2016

ATP said:
But scripture says the opposite. Scripture says only non believers are lost.

contradict / verb (used with object)
1. to assert the contrary or opposite of; deny directly and categorically.
2. to speak contrary to the assertions of: to contradict oneself.
3. (of an action or event) to imply a denial of: His way of life contradicts his stated principles.
4. Obsolete. to speak or declare against; oppose.

Neither present nor future will be able to separate the elect from agape love..

John 17:26 NIV I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the (agape) love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."

Rom 8:35 ESV Who shall separate us from the (agape) love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?

Rom 8:38-39 ESV / Rev 20:14 NIV For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the (agape) love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom 11:28-29 NIV As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are (agape) loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

2 Cor 5:14-15 NIV For Christ's (agape) love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

Col 1:3-5 NIV We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, 4 because we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the (agape) love you have for all the saints--5 the faith and (agape) love that spring from the hope that is stored up for you in heaven and that you have already heard about in the word of truth, the gospel

Jude 1:1 NIV Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, To those who have been called, who are (agape) loved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:

Rev 1:5-6 NIV and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who (agape) loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

Your verses prove nothing for they apply to everything and everyone EXCEPT ourselves and the ever-present freedom to turn from Christ and follow after our lusts, just like the Unmerciful Servant chose to indulge his lust rather than the pure, loving character of the merciful Lord who forgave him his debt.

Phoneman777 · Feb 6, 2016

ATP said:
Does Matt. 24:13 conflict with free grace salvation and the believer’s security?

“But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved” (Matt 24:13).

The word “saved” must always be understand in its context. Saved from what and by what means? “Saved” is the Greek sozo which may refer to any kind of deliverance and should often be simply translated “delivered.” It can refer to physical deliverance or to some kind of spiritual deliverance, but the context is the determining factor. In point of fact, this passage is speaking about physical deliverance or the survival of those who last through the judgments of the tribulation. Note the comments below from the Bible Knowledge Commentary.

24:9-14 (Mark 13:9-13; Luke 21:12-19). Jesus began His words (Matt. 24:9) with a time word, Then. At the middle point of the seven-year period preceding Christ’s second coming, great distress will begin to be experienced by Israel. The Antichrist, who will have risen to power in the world and will have made a protective treaty with Israel, will break his agreement at that time (Dan. 9:27). He will bring great persecution on Israel (Dan. 7:25) and even establish his own center of worship in the temple in Jerusalem (2 Thes. 2:3-4). This will result in the death of many Jews (Matt. 24:9) and many people departing from the faith. Believing Jews will be betrayed by nonbelievers (v. 10), and many will be deceived by rising false prophets (cf. v. 5; Rev. 13:11-15). Wickedness will increase, causing the love of most people (for the Lord) to grow cold.

Those who are believers and who survive until the end of that period of time will be saved, that is, delivered (Matt. 24:13). This does not refer to a personal self-effort at endurance that results in one’s eternal salvation, but to physical deliverance of those who trust in the Savior during the Tribulation. The endurance, then, is physical survival. While many will be martyred, a few will make to the end. Those who endure through the awful events of the Tribulation will be alive or delivered by Messiah when he returns to earth. This is not a reference to eternal salvation from sin, but rather the deliverance of survivors at the end of the Tribulation as stated in Romans 11:26 where the Deliver will save the nation Israel from its persecutors. Many will not endure to the end in that they will be martyred for their faith as described in Revelation 7:9-17.

https://bible.org/question/does-matt-2413-conflict-free-grace-salvation-and-believer%E2%80%99s-security

Salvation is a day by day, moment by moment surrender to Jesus based on the belief of Who He is and what He has done for us. If that is too much for you, then you may want to reconsider your expressed desire to be eternally surrendered day by day, moment by moment to Him in heaven - the only alternative being the Lake of Fire and annihilation.

ATP · Feb 6, 2016

Phoneman777 said:
Your verses prove nothing for they apply to everything and everyone EXCEPT ourselves and the ever-present freedom to turn from Christ and follow after our lusts, just like the Unmerciful Servant chose to indulge his lust rather than the pure, loving character of the merciful Lord who forgave him his debt.

We have the freedom to turn from Christ because of progressive sanctification and the agape love that never leaves us.

contradict / verb (used with object)
1. to assert the contrary or opposite of; deny directly and categorically.
2. to speak contrary to the assertions of: to contradict oneself.
3. (of an action or event) to imply a denial of: His way of life contradicts his stated principles.
4. Obsolete. to speak or declare against; oppose.

John 17:26 NIV I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the (agape) love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."

Rom 8:35 ESV Who shall separate us from the (agape) love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?

Rom 8:38-39 ESV / Rev 20:14 NIV For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the (agape) love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom 11:28-29 NIV As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are (agape) loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

2 Cor 5:14-15 NIV For Christ's (agape) love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

Col 1:3-5 NIV We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, 4 because we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the (agape) love you have for all the saints--5 the faith and (agape) love that spring from the hope that is stored up for you in heaven and that you have already heard about in the word of truth, the gospel

Jude 1:1 NIV Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, To those who have been called, who are (agape) loved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:

Rev 1:5-6 NIV and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who (agape) loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

Phoneman777 said:
Salvation is a day by day, moment by moment surrender to Jesus based on the belief of Who He is and what He has done for us. If that is too much for you, then you may want to reconsider your expressed desire to be eternally surrendered day by day, moment by moment to Him in heaven - the only alternative being the Lake of Fire and annihilation.

You need to look up the definition of perseverance. Why do you deny the testimony of the saints?

perseverance / noun
1. steady persistence in a course of action, a purpose, a state, etc., especially in spite of difficulties, obstacles, or discouragement.
2. Theology. continuance in a state of grace to the end, leading to eternal salvation.

ATP · Feb 6, 2016

Psalm 130:3-4 NIV If you, Lord, kept a record of sins, Lord, who could stand? 4But with you there is forgiveness, so that we can, with reverence, serve you.

Psalm 130:7-8 NIV Israel, put your hope in the Lord, for with the Lord is unfailing love and with him is full redemption. 8He himself will redeem Israel from all their sins.

Psalm 135:13-14 NIV Your name, Lord, endures forever, your renown, Lord, through all generations. 14For the Lord will vindicate his people and have compassion on his servants.

Psalm 136:1-26 NIV (His love endures forever)

Psalm 139:9-10 NIV If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea, 10even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast.

Psalm 142:3 NIV When my spirit grows faint within me, it is you who watch over my way. In the path where I walk people have hidden a snare for me.

Psalm 145:13-14 NIV Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and your dominion endures through all generations. The Lord is trustworthy in all he promises and faithful in all he does. 14The Lord upholds all who fall and lifts up all who are bowed down.

ATP · Feb 6, 2016

We've been adopted into a family...John 8:34-36 NIV, Rom 8:15-17 NIV, Rom 8:23 NIV, Rom 9:4 NIV, Gal 4:4-7 NIV, Gal 6:10 NIV, Eph 1:4-5 NIV, Eph 2:19 NIV, 1 Pet 5:9 NIV

Jesus died for past, present and future sins...Psalm 130:3-4 NIV, Rom 4:7-8 NIV, Rom 6:10 NIV, Rom 8:38-39 ESV, 1 Cor 15:12-19 NIV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, Heb 7:23-25 NIV, Heb 7:27 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, Heb 9:24-28 NIV, Heb 10:10-14 NIV, 1 Pet 3:18 NIV

We belong to Christ...John 8:34-36 NIV, John 8:44 NIV, Rom 1:6 NIV, Rom 8:9-11 NIV, Rom 14:8 NIV, 2 Cor 10:7 NIV, Gal 2:12 NIV, Gal 3:29 NIV, Gal 5:24 NIV, Gal 6:10 NIV, Heb 10:38-39 NIV, 1 John 2:19 NIV, 1 John 5:12 NIV

We are written in the book of life forever...Luke 10:18-20 NIV, Phil 4:3 NIV, Heb 12:22-24 NIV, Rev 3:5 NIV, Rev 13:8 NIV, Rev 17:8 NIV, Rev 20:12-15 NIV, Rev 21:27 NIV

The new commandment God gives His saints is to love others and forgive others as Christ forgave us...John 13:34-35 NIV, John 15:12 NIV, John 15:17 NIV, Gal 5:6 NIV, Gal 5:14 NIV, 1 Tim 1:3-7 NIV, 1 John 3:23 NIV, 1 John 4:21 NIV, 2 John 1:5-6 NIV

There is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus...Mark 16:16 NIV, John 3:18 NIV, Rom 5:16 NIV, Rom 8:1-2 NIV, Rom 8:34 ESV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, 2 Thess 2:11-12 NIV

Confidence in God comes through believing and not self-righteous works...Jer 17:7 NIV, 2 Cor 3:2-5 NIV, 2 Cor 10:7 NIV, Eph 3:12 NIV, Phil 1:3-6 NIV, Heb 10:19-22 NIV, Heb 11:1 NIV, Heb 13:6 NIV, 1 John 3:21 NIV, 1 John 4:17 NIV, 1 John 5:13-14 NIV

We no longer continue to sin...Rom 6:14 NIV, 1 John 3:6 NIV, 1 John 3:9 NIV, 1 John 5:18 NIV

Running the race is about winning or losing crowns in heaven and has nothing to do with original salvation...Matt 5:12 NIV, Matt 6:20 NIV, Matt 18:18 NIV, Matt 19:21 NIV, Acts 20:24 NIV, 1 Cor 3:13-15 NIV, 1 Cor 4:12 NIV, 1 Cor 9:24-27 NIV, Gal 5:7 NIV, Phil 3:12-14 NIV, Col 2:18 NIV, 1 Thess 2:19 NIV, 2 Tim 2:5 NIV, Heb 10:34-35 NIV, Heb 12:1 NIV, 1 Pet 1:23 NIV / Psalm 106:1 NIV, 2 John 1:8-11 NIV, Rev 2:10 NIV, Rev 3:11 NIV, Rev 11:18 NIV, Rev 22:12 NIV

Once we believed we were baptized into Christ's death once and for all...Rom 6:3-5 NIV, Rom 8:36 ESV, Rom 8:38-39 ESV

Believers are no longer enemies of God, rather nonbelievers are...Nahum 1:2 ESV, Rom 5:10-11 NIV, Rom 11:28 NIV, Rom 12:19-20 NIV, Heb 10:27 NIV

Once we believe, we have eternal life...John 3:14-16 NIV, John 5:24 NIV, John 6:40 NIV, John 6:47 NIV, John 6:54 NIV, John 10:25-30 NIV, Acts 13:46-48 NIV, Rom 6:22-23 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, 1 Tim 1:15-16 NIV, Tit 1:1-3 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, 1 John 5:9-14 NIV

Once we believed and came to faith in Jesus Christ we also now have freedom to approach God with confidence...Rom 6:18-20 NIV, Gal 2:4 NIV, Gal 4:30-31 NIV, Gal 5:1 NIV, Gal 5:13 NIV, Eph 3:12 NIV, Heb 9:15 NIV, James 2:12 NIV, 1 Pet 2:16 NIV, Rev 1:5 NIV

We are heirs to Christ...Acts 3:25 NIV, Rom 4:13-14 NIV, Rom 8:15-17 NIV, Gal 3:29 NIV, Gal 4:7 NIV, Eph 3:6 NIV, Tit 3:7 NIV, Heb 6:17 NIV, Heb 11:9 NIV

We have an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade...Psalm 33:11-12 NIV, Psalm 37:18 NIV, Dan 12:13 NIV, Matt 25:34 NIV, Acts 20:32 NIV, Gal 3:18 NIV, Gal 4:30-31 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, Eph 1:18 NIV, Col 1:12 NIV, Heb 9:15 NIV, Heb 10:34 NIV, 1 Peter 1:3-5 NIV

We are only justified once...Acts 13:39 NIV, Rom 3:24-28 NIV, Rom 4:2 NIV, Rom 4:25 NIV, Rom 5:9 NIV, Rom 5:16 NIV, Rom 8:30 NIV, Rom 8:33 ESV, Rom 10:9-10 NIV / Matt 15:8-9 NIV, 1 Cor 6:11 NIV, Gal 2:16-17 NIV, Gal 3:11 NIV, Gal 3:24 NIV, Gal 5:4 NIV, Tit 3:7 NIV

Nonbelievers are considered lost, not believers...Matt 18:12-14 NIV, Luke 19:9-10 NIV, John 6:35-40 NIV, John 10:25-30 NIV, John 17:12 NIV, John 18:8-9 NIV, Rom 5:5 NIV, 1 Cor 15:12-19 NIV, 1 Pet 2:24-25 NIV

Overcoming and being victorious is based on belief, not works...Psa 20:6-9 NIV, Psalm 44:5-8 NIV, John 16:33 NIV, Acts 20:28 NIV, Rom 8:35 NIV, Rom 8:37 NIV, 1 Cor 15:54-57 NIV, 2 Cor 2:14 NIV, 1 Pet 2:24-25 NIV, 1 John 2:13-14 NIV, 1 John 4:4 NIV, 1 John 5:4-5 NIV, Rev 12:11 NIV

The saints persevere because God's grace never leaves them. God will keep His promises...Psalm 145:13-14 NIV, Acts 2:32-33 NIV, Rom 4:13-25 NIV, Gal 3:13-14 NIV, Gal 3:18 NIV, Gal 3:21-22 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, Eph 3:6 NIV, Tit 1:1-3 NIV, Heb 9:15 NIV, James 1:12 NIV, 2 Pet 1:3-4 NIV

Our inheritance is kept in heaven for us through the power and protection of God...Psa 5:11-12 NIV, Psa 18:2 NIV, John 17:11 NIV, John 17:15 NIV, Rom 1:16 NIV, Rom 1:20 NIV, Rom 15:13 NIV, 1 Cor 1:17 NIV, 1 Cor 2:4-5 NIV, 1 Cor 4:20 NIV, 1 Cor 5:4-5 NIV, 1 Cor 6:14 NIV, Eph 1:19-21 NIV, 1 Peter 1:3-5 NIV

It's not our works that keep us saved, it's His...Psalm 127:1 NIV, Isa 64:6 NIV, Matt 6:1 NIV, Matt 23:25-26 NIV, Matt 23:27-28 NIV, Luke 18:19 NIV, John 6:28-29 NIV, Rom 3:9-20 NIV, Rom 3:21-31 NIV, Rom 4:3-11 NIV, Rom 4:22-24 NIV, Rom 5:17-21 NIV, Rom 6:16-20 NIV, Rom 8:9-11 NIV, Rom 9:30-33 NIV, Rom 10:3-4 NIV, Rom 11:5-7 NIV, 1 Cor 1:30 NIV, 1 Cor 3:13-15 NIV, 1 Cor 8:1 NIV, 1 Cor 15:10-11 NIV, 2 Cor 1:9 NIV, 2 Cor 3:5 NIV, 2 Cor 5:15 NIV, Gal 1:6-7 NIV, Gal 2:21 NIV, Gal 3:1-5 NIV, Gal 3:6-7 NIV, Gal 4:9 NIV, Eph 2:7-9 NIV, Phil 1:9-11 NIV, Phil 2:12-13 NIV, Phil 3:8-11 NIV, 1 Tim 4:10 NIV, 2 Tim 1:9 NIV, Tit 3:5 NIV, Rev 15:4 NIV

We are sealed until the day of redemption...John 6:27 NIV, 1 Cor 9:2 NIV, 2 Cor 1:21-22 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, Eph 4:30 NIV, Rev 9:4 NIV

The seed of God that is in us is imperishable...Matt 13:20-23 NIV, Luke 8:11 NIV, 1 Cor 15:54-57 NIV, 1 Pet 1:23 NIV / Psalm 106:1 NIV, 1 John 3:9 NIV

The truth will be in us forever...Eph 1:13-14 NIV, 2 John 1:2 NIV

They continued in unbelief because they had no root of salvation, they were never born again. Jesus Christ is the root, and salvation comes only through Him...Matt 13:20-23 NIV, Luke 8:11 NIV, John 10:26 NIV, Rom 11:20 NIV, Rom 11:23 NIV, 1 Cor 15:54-57 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, 1 Pet 1:23 NIV / Psalm 106:1 NIV, 2 John 1:2 NIV, Rev 5:5 NIV, Rev 22:16 NIV

And lastly, neither death nor life can separate us from the love of God...Rom 8:38-39 NIV, Rev 20:14 NIV.

And some extra's that prove God's grace never leaves us...Psalm 18:2 NIV, Psalm 21:4 NIV, Psalm 28:8-9 NIV, Psalm 33:11-12 NIV, Psalm 37:39-40 NIV, Psalm 48:8-9 NIV, Psalm 48:14 NIV, Psalm 62:1-2 NIV, Psalm 73:26 NIV, Psalm 89:1-4 NIV, Psalm 94:16-18 NIV, Psalm 100:4-5 NIV / Psalm 108:4 NIV / Psalm 145:13-14 NIV, Psalm 106:1 NIV, Psalm 107:1-2 NIV / Psalm 103:4 NIV, Psalm 111:9 NIV, Matt 19:25-26 NIV, John 6:35-40 NIV, John 10:9 NIV, John 17:26 NIV, Rom 7:21-25 NIV, 1 Cor 1:8-9 NIV, 1 Cor 3:13-15 NIV, 1 Cor 5:1-5 NIV, 2 Cor 1:9-10 NIV / 2 Cor 3:12 NIV, Col 1:3-5 NIV, 2 Tim 2:13 NIV / Psalm 100:4-5 NIV / Psalm 108:4 NIV / Psalm 145:13-14 NIV, Psalm 121:1-8 NIV, Psalm 130:7-8 NIV, Psalm 135:13-14 NIV, Psalm 136:1-26 NIV, Psalm 139:9-10 NIV, Psalm 142:3 NIV, Psalm 145:13-14 NIV, 2 Tim 4:18 NIV, Heb 6:16-19 NIV, Heb 7:23-25 NIV, Heb 12:22-24 NIV, Heb 13:5 NIV, 1 Pet 1:23 NIV / Psalm 106:1 NIV, 2 John 1:2 NIV, Jude 1:1 NIV, Jude 1:24-25 NIV

ATP · Feb 6, 2016

1 Peter 1:3-5 NIV Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

Jude 1:1 NIV Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, To those who have been called, who are (agape) loved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:

Phoneman777 · Feb 8, 2016

ATP said:
1 Peter 1:3-5 NIV Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

Jude 1:1 NIV Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, To those who have been called, who are (agape) loved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:

You realize that "those" are the saints, right? Saints which are known by their (1) agape for God, (2) agape for others, and (3) agape perfected in them. The saints of Matthew 24:12 KJV once had such agape but sadly due to iniquity allowed it to grow cold and dead. They are no longer saints and will suffer the reward of the wicked, just as the "wicked" Unmerciful Servant who was condemned to again bear his original impossible debt for which he was initially forgiven, because he chose iniquity as well.

ATP · Feb 8, 2016

Phoneman777 said:
You realize that "those" are the saints, right? Saints which are known by their (1) agape for God, (2) agape for others, and (3) agape perfected in them. The saints of Matthew 24:12 KJV once had such agape but sadly due to iniquity allowed it to grow cold and dead. They are no longer saints and will suffer the reward of the wicked, just as the "wicked" Unmerciful Servant who was condemned to again bear his original impossible debt for which he was initially forgiven, because he chose iniquity as well.

Right Phone, saints. Either God says the saints persevere, or he says they don't. God is not in contradiction. The agape love in Matt 24 is about physical deliverance out of the tribulation period. It has nothing to do with believers losing salvation. Believers will either die as martyr's or survive that period. Please take the time to study post 395.

Phoneman777 · Feb 9, 2016

ATP said:
Right Phone, saints. Either God says the saints persevere, or he says they don't. God is not in contradiction. The agape love in Matt 24 is about physical deliverance out of the tribulation period. It has nothing to do with believers losing salvation. Believers will either die as martyr's or survive that period. Please take the time to study post 395.

ATP, to endure or not to endure is a choice saints daily make.

Does the servant of Satan endure anything? No, his life is an endless round of fulfilling his lusts as he remains ensnared by the enemy. It is the Christian who suffers daily harassment and temptation - who chooses to endure all this despite his fleshly desire. Only those who choose to endure until the end, and not turn back to destruction, shall be saved. The concept is so elementary that I cannot believe I have to explain it to anyone who reads the Bible with their eyes open.

ATP · Feb 9, 2016

Phoneman777 said:
ATP, to endure or not to endure is a choice saints daily make.

Phoneman777, Christians are killed and martyred by ISIS every single day. Did they have a choice, or did they endure?

Phoneman777 said:
Only those who choose to endure until the end, and not turn back to destruction, shall be saved.

Those Christians are being saved by physical deliverance out of the tribulation period.

Either you will die as a martyr or survive until the end. It has nothing to do with salvation.

Phoneman777 said:
The concept is so elementary that I cannot believe I have to explain it to anyone who reads the Bible with their eyes open.

Tell me about it. It's been what, six months with you and you still don't get it. You're being lied too and do not even realize it. Kind of like the seed of homosexuality bro.

Phoneman777 said:
Phoneman777 said:

Brother, if you think it was easy to go to the Cross, then you have absolutely no concept of what Jesus went through. Of course He prevailed by might, the might and power of His Father to Whom He clung when every ounce of His flesh wanted to run away from the Cross, to the point that "His sweat was as it were great drops of blood." Of course He was assailed by every weapon of Hell as He hung their dying, not able to see through the portal of the tomb, but had only the promises of His Father to cling to, as He was mocked and derided, and abandoned by everyone. Yes, The greatest victory in the history of the Universe was won on that day, when the Confirmation of the New Covenant of Grace was finished and God is even now accepting applicants to partake of His glorious New Covenant, which is according to Scripture His law written on the hearts of men. The Jesuits hate that too, that's why they have led countless unwary Christians into weekly Sun worship on Sunday.

Click to expand...

..and yet, after all that suffering and blood we can still lose our salvation. Ain't that right Phone.

You preach Grace, but have no idea what it is. You believe you can't earn salvation, but you have to earn it to keep it? lol.

opcorn:

ANALYSIS OF MATTHEW 24:12-13 - WHY IT DISPROVES OSAS

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