ANALYSIS OF MATTHEW 24:12-13 - WHY IT DISPROVES OSAS

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Phoneman777

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ATP said:
Phoneman777, Christians are killed and martyred by ISIS every single day. Did they have a choice, or did they endure?


Those Christians are being saved by physical deliverance out of the tribulation period.

Either you will die as a martyr or survive until the end. It has nothing to do with salvation.


Tell me about it. It's been what, six months with you and you still don't get it. You're being lied too and do not even realize it. Kind of like the seed of homosexuality bro.


..and yet, after all that suffering and blood we can still lose our salvation. Ain't that right Phone.

You preach Grace, but have no idea what it is. You believe you can't earn salvation, but you have to earn it to keep it? lol. :popcorn:
1. Of course they have a choice to either submit to Allah or die loyal to Jesus, ATP.

2. You continue insisting "endures to the end" refers only to physical Roman occupation. Plain old 3rd grade reading comprehension skills demand that we recognize that both verses are connected by the contrasting conjunction "but". The context formed by these inseparable verses cannot exclude the spiritual aspect of "cold, dead agape" in order to establish your flawed position that verse 13 refers only to 70 A.D., especially when the Olivet Discourse addresses both the generation which "shall not pass" and the time when there "shall be great tribulation, such as was not since..."


3. You accuse me of "salvation by works" when I repeatedly say it is ours the moment we choose Jesus as BOTH Savior from sin AND Lord to be obeyed. Like all Antinomialists, you wrongly equate choice with "works". Choice is "thought", not works.

Salvation is retained by the continued choice to allow Jesus to remain enthroned on the heart. Again, choice is not work, but thought. Simple yet profound, isn't it?
 

ATP

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Phoneman777 said:
1. Of course they have a choice to either submit to Allah or die loyal to Jesus, ATP.
And that's what believers do Phone, they persevere and stay loyal to Jesus.

You not believing my testimony is not my problem to fix. It's yours.

1 John 5:9-14 NIV / Psa 21:4 NIV We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

Phoneman777 said:
2. You continue insisting "endures to the end" refers only to physical Roman occupation. Plain old 3rd grade reading comprehension skills demand that we recognize that both verses are connected by the contrasting conjunction "but". The context formed by these inseparable verses cannot exclude the spiritual aspect of "cold, dead agape" in order to establish your flawed position that verse 13 refers only to 70 A.D., especially when the Olivet Discourse addresses both the generation which "shall not pass" and the time when there "shall be great tribulation, such as was not since..."
Well, at least you're acknowledging the Olivet is in regards to the great tribulation during end times. That's a start. Matt 24:12-13 NIV is about believers in Christ dying as martyrs or surviving until the end of the great trib. Of course you don't believe the 70th week is future, so that is two bumps you need to get over. This site explains it awfully well....

Does Matt. 24:13 conflict with free grace salvation and the believer’s security?

“But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved” (Matt 24:13).

The word “saved” must always be understand in its context. Saved from what and by what means? “Saved” is the Greek sozo which may refer to any kind of deliverance and should often be simply translated “delivered.” It can refer to physical deliverance or to some kind of spiritual deliverance, but the context is the determining factor. In point of fact, this passage is speaking about physical deliverance or the survival of those who last through the judgments of the tribulation. Note the comments below from the Bible Knowledge Commentary.

24:9-14 (Mark 13:9-13; Luke 21:12-19). Jesus began His words (Matt. 24:9) with a time word, Then. At the middle point of the seven-year period preceding Christ’s second coming, great distress will begin to be experienced by Israel. The Antichrist, who will have risen to power in the world and will have made a protective treaty with Israel, will break his agreement at that time (Dan. 9:27). He will bring great persecution on Israel (Dan. 7:25) and even establish his own center of worship in the temple in Jerusalem (2 Thes. 2:3-4). This will result in the death of many Jews (Matt. 24:9) and many people departing from the faith. Believing Jews will be betrayed by nonbelievers (v. 10), and many will be deceived by rising false prophets (cf. v. 5; Rev. 13:11-15). Wickedness will increase, causing the love of most people (for the Lord) to grow cold.

Those who are believers and who survive until the end of that period of time will be saved, that is, delivered (Matt. 24:13). This does not refer to a personal self-effort at endurance that results in one’s eternal salvation, but to physical deliverance of those who trust in the Savior during the Tribulation. The endurance, then, is physical survival. While many will be martyred, a few will make to the end. Those who endure through the awful events of the Tribulation will be alive or delivered by Messiah when he returns to earth. This is not a reference to eternal salvation from sin, but rather the deliverance of survivors at the end of the Tribulation as stated in Romans 11:26 where the Deliver will save the nation Israel from its persecutors. Many will not endure to the end in that they will be martyred for their faith as described in Revelation 7:9-17.

https://bible.org/question/does-matt-2413-conflict-free-grace-salvation-and-believer%E2%80%99s-security

Phoneman777 said:
3. You accuse me of "salvation by works" when I repeatedly say it is ours the moment we choose Jesus as BOTH Savior from sin AND Lord to be obeyed. Like all Antinomialists, you wrongly equate choice with "works". Choice is "thought", not works.

Salvation is retained by the continued choice to allow Jesus to remain enthroned on the heart. Again, choice is not work, but thought. Simple yet profound, isn't it?
You are salvation by works Phone, because according to you the cross isn't enough. In order to keep my salvation I have to do something else, something more other than what Jesus died for. You're adding "loss of salvation" in your doctrine if we don't obey. We don't lose salvation if we rebel. We lose blessings in this life.

Christians follow and then fall and then follow all throughout their lives, but they never forget who they belong too. That's why God convicts, sanctifies and disciplines His children. Heb 10:38-39 NIV also confirms the perseverance of the saints. 4th grade here we come....

John 8:34-36 NIV Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

Rom 1:6 NIV And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.

Rom 8:9-11 NIV You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

Rom 14:8 NIV If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

2 Cor 10:7 NIV You are looking only on the surface of things. If anyone is confident that he belongs to Christ, he should consider again that we belong to Christ just as much as he.

Gal 2:12 NIV Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group.

Gal 3:29 NIV If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Gal 5:24 NIV Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.

Gal 6:10 NIV Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Heb 10:38-39 NIV And, “But my righteous one will live by faith. And I take no pleasure in the one who shrinks back.” 39But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

1 John 2:19 NIV They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

1 John 5:12 NIV Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
 

iakov

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ATP said:
You are salvation by works Phone, because according to you the cross isn't enough. In order to keep my salvation I have to do something else, something more other than what Jesus died for. You're adding "loss of salvation" in your doctrine if we don't obey. We don't lose salvation if we rebel. We lose blessings in this life.
And that is part of what Bonhoefer called "cheap grace."

IMO, the OSAS teaching is a device of Satan to convince alleged Christians that all they have to do is believe and that they don't ever have to do any of the "good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (EPh 2:10)

Jesus asked His followers, "Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and not do what I tell you?" (Luke 6:46)

So, why do you call Jesus "Lord" and then tell people they don't have to do the "good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."??? Why do you tell people it is unnecessary to OBEY Jesus' commands to be saved?

Jesus SPECIFICALLY said that He will separate the saved from the condemned according to what they did or did not DO. (Mat 25:31-46) He won't say anything about what people believe; He will judge them according to what they DID. What people DO is what you call "WORKS."

It's not about earning salvation; it's about obeying Jesus.

If you don't obey Him (and also teach others that it is unnecessary to obey Him) the you are NOT saved.

And NO, obedience is not automatic just because you believed. Obedience is, according to Paul, accomplished in the midst of unending warfare against the lusts of the flesh.

God does not change.

COL1:21-23 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight —IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

HEB 3:14 We have come to share in Christ IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.

2PE 1:5-10 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For IF YOU DO THESE THINGS, YOU WILL NEVER FALL,

EZE 18:24 "But IF a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, HE WILL DIE.”

I am assuming you understand that the the word "if" introduces a conditional situation.
 

FHII

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iakov said:
And that is part of what Bonhoefer called "cheap grace."

IMO, the OSAS teaching is a device of Satan to convince alleged Christians that all they have to do is believe and that they don't ever have to do any of the "good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (EPh 2:10)

Jesus asked His followers, "Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and not do what I tell you?" (Luke 6:46)

So, why do you call Jesus "Lord" and then tell people they don't have to do the "good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."??? Why do you tell people it is unnecessary to OBEY Jesus' commands to be saved?

Jesus SPECIFICALLY said that He will separate the saved from the condemned according to what they did or did not DO. (Mat 25:31-46) He won't say anything about what people believe; He will judge them according to what they DID. What people DO is what you call "WORKS."

It's not about earning salvation; it's about obeying Jesus.

If you don't obey Him (and also teach others that it is unnecessary to obey Him) the you are NOT saved.

And NO, obedience is not automatic just because you believed. Obedience is, according to Paul, accomplished in the midst of unending warfare against the lusts of the flesh.

God does not change.

COL1:21-23 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight —IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

HEB 3:14 We have come to share in Christ IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.

2PE 1:5-10 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For IF YOU DO THESE THINGS, YOU WILL NEVER FALL,

EZE 18:24 "But IF a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, HE WILL DIE.”

I am assuming you understand that the the word "if" introduces a conditional situation.
What is the bible definition of good works?
 

ATP

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iakov said:
IMO, the OSAS teaching is a device of Satan to convince alleged Christians that all they have to do is believe and that they don't ever have to do any of the "good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (EPh 2:10)
No, that's wrong. This is what OSAS believes...

We who believe in the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints in no way profess a dead faith, nor are we antinomians...yet when it comes to soteriology we do believe we are saved through the belief of the death of Jesus Christ for our sins and His resurrection. This is the entirety of the gospel for salvation.

What we believe about works is it is the natural progression and out working of being born again. These works do nothing to secure or maintain our salvation. These works are accredited to God as working in and through us.

We do not believe that sin will disqualify any born again believer for the free gift of salvation. All sin is deliberate, yet repentance is the natural working of God in us through the conviction He places on us. We believe as His children we are chastised but not condemned.

iakov said:
So, why do you call Jesus "Lord" and then tell people they don't have to do the "good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."??? Why do you tell people it is unnecessary to OBEY Jesus' commands to be saved?
That's incorrect also. Believers do follow the commandments because of the perseverance of the saints...

John 13:34-35 NIV “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

John 15:12 NIV My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.

John 15:17 NIV This is my command: Love each other.

Gal 5:6 NIV For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

Gal 5:14 NIV For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

1 Tim 1:3-7 NIV As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer 4or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work—which is by faith. 5The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6Some have departed from these and have turned to meaningless talk. 7They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

1 John 3:23 NIV And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

1 John 4:21 NIV And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

2 John 1:5-6 NIV And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. 6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

iakov said:
COL1:21-23 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight —IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.
This passage is about losing blessings in Christ, not salvation. If you notice in Col 1:22 NIV it says we have already been reconciled through the blood of Christ shed on the cross. His blood is permanent. Also notice that the body of Christ is the one time sacrifice for sins in Col 1:22 NIV and Heb 10:10-12 NIV.

iakov said:
HEB 3:14 We have come to share in Christ IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.
And that we shall.
This passage is separating the sheep from the goats.
Believers persevere because they have the root of salvation.
Only nonbelievers who do not have the root remain in unbelief Matt 13:20-23 NIV.
Believing only comes once...

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

iakov said:
2PE 1:5-10 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For IF YOU DO THESE THINGS, YOU WILL NEVER FALL,
2 Peter 1:4-11 NIV - This passage is about losing blessings in Christ, not salvation. Notice the word "promises" in 2 Peter 1:4 NIV. Now notice the word "promise" in the following...Acts 2:38-39 NIV, Gal 3:22 NIV, Gal 3:29 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, Phil 1:6 NIV, Heb 4:1 ESV, 2 Peter 2:4-10 NIV, 1 John 2:24-25 NIV, Jude 1:24 NIV.

Also notice in 2 Peter 1:11 NIV it does not say we will NOT be welcome into the eternal kingdom, rather it says if we do these things we will receive a rich welcome. It's only being applied to HOW we will be greeted, not IF we will be greeted.

Lastly, in 2 Pet 1:10 NIV, the word for stumble is translated "ptaió" which means to cause to stumble, to stumble, or to fall, sin, err, transgress. We err every day and fall short of God's glory, because only Jesus is perfect Psa 20:6-9 NIV, Psa 37:23-24 NIV.

Psalm 145:13-14 NIV Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and your dominion endures through all generations. The Lord is trustworthy in all he promises and faithful in all he does. 14The Lord upholds all who fall and lifts up all who are bowed down.

iakov said:
EZE 18:24 "But IF a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, HE WILL DIE.”

I am assuming you understand that the the word "if" introduces a conditional situation.
Ezek 18:24 NIV / Ezek 33:11-16 NIV - This has nothing to do with salvation. It has to do with the penalty of sin because sin is death. James 1:13-15 NIV.

FHII said:
What is the bible definition of good works?
The good work asked of us is to believe, in which iakov is preaching the opposite...

He won't say anything about what people believe;
Psalm 127:1 NIV Unless the Lord builds the house, the builders labor in vain. Unless the Lord watches over the city, the guards stand watch in vain.

John 6:28-29 NIV Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" 29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

Rom 3:21-22 NIV But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,

Rom 4:11 NIV And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.

Rom 4:22-24 NIV This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." 23 The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

Rom 10:3-4 NIV Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

1 Cor 15:10-11 NIV But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them--yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

Gal 3:5 NIV Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

1 Tim 4:10 NIV That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

James 2:23 NIV And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend.

- ATP
 

Phoneman777

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ATP said:
No, that's wrong. This is what OSAS believes...

We who believe in the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints in no way profess a dead faith, nor are we antinomians...yet when it comes to soteriology we do believe we are saved through the belief of the death of Jesus Christ for our sins and His resurrection. This is the entirety of the gospel for salvation.

What we believe about works is it is the natural progression and out working of being born again. These works do nothing to secure or maintain our salvation. These works are accredited to God as working in and through us.

We do not believe that sin will disqualify any born again believer for the free gift of salvation. All sin is deliberate, yet repentance is the natural working of God in us through the conviction He places on us. We believe as His children we are chastised but not condemned.


That's incorrect also. Believers do follow the commandments because of the perseverance of the saints...

John 13:34-35 NIV “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

John 15:12 NIV My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.

John 15:17 NIV This is my command: Love each other.

Gal 5:6 NIV For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

Gal 5:14 NIV For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

1 Tim 1:3-7 NIV As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer 4or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work—which is by faith. 5The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6Some have departed from these and have turned to meaningless talk. 7They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

1 John 3:23 NIV And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

1 John 4:21 NIV And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

2 John 1:5-6 NIV And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. 6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.


This passage is about losing blessings in Christ, not salvation. If you notice in Col 1:22 NIV it says we have already been reconciled through the blood of Christ shed on the cross. His blood is permanent. Also notice that the body of Christ is the one time sacrifice for sins in Col 1:22 NIV and Heb 10:10-12 NIV.


And that we shall.
This passage is separating the sheep from the goats.
Believers persevere because they have the root of salvation.
Only nonbelievers who do not have the root remain in unbelief Matt 13:20-23 NIV.
Believing only comes once...

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.


2 Peter 1:4-11 NIV - This passage is about losing blessings in Christ, not salvation. Notice the word "promises" in 2 Peter 1:4 NIV. Now notice the word "promise" in the following...Acts 2:38-39 NIV, Gal 3:22 NIV, Gal 3:29 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, Phil 1:6 NIV, Heb 4:1 ESV, 2 Peter 2:4-10 NIV, 1 John 2:24-25 NIV, Jude 1:24 NIV.

Also notice in 2 Peter 1:11 NIV it does not say we will NOT be welcome into the eternal kingdom, rather it says if we do these things we will receive a rich welcome. It's only being applied to HOW we will be greeted, not IF we will be greeted.

Lastly, in 2 Pet 1:10 NIV, the word for stumble is translated "ptaió" which means to cause to stumble, to stumble, or to fall, sin, err, transgress. We err every day and fall short of God's glory, because only Jesus is perfect Psa 20:6-9 NIV, Psa 37:23-24 NIV.

Psalm 145:13-14 NIV Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and your dominion endures through all generations. The Lord is trustworthy in all he promises and faithful in all he does. 14The Lord upholds all who fall and lifts up all who are bowed down.


Ezek 18:24 NIV / Ezek 33:11-16 NIV - This has nothing to do with salvation. It has to do with the penalty of sin because sin is death. James 1:13-15 NIV.


The good work asked of us is to believe, in which iakov is preaching the opposite...


Psalm 127:1 NIV Unless the Lord builds the house, the builders labor in vain. Unless the Lord watches over the city, the guards stand watch in vain.

John 6:28-29 NIV Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" 29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

Rom 3:21-22 NIV But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,

Rom 4:11 NIV And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.

Rom 4:22-24 NIV This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." 23 The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

Rom 10:3-4 NIV Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

1 Cor 15:10-11 NIV But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them--yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

Gal 3:5 NIV Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

1 Tim 4:10 NIV That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

James 2:23 NIV And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend.

- ATP
ATP, I'm sorry but I avoid reading long posts from those with whom I disagree b/c they are usually so filled textual pretexts. I prefer to discuss one point at a time, so as to identify where beliefs begin to diverge, rather than shouting back and forth from one hill top to another.
 

Phoneman777

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iakov said:
And that is part of what Bonhoefer called "cheap grace."

IMO, the OSAS teaching is a device of Satan to convince alleged Christians that all they have to do is believe and that they don't ever have to do any of the "good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (EPh 2:10)

Jesus asked His followers, "Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and not do what I tell you?" (Luke 6:46)

So, why do you call Jesus "Lord" and then tell people they don't have to do the "good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."??? Why do you tell people it is unnecessary to OBEY Jesus' commands to be saved?

Jesus SPECIFICALLY said that He will separate the saved from the condemned according to what they did or did not DO. (Mat 25:31-46) He won't say anything about what people believe; He will judge them according to what they DID. What people DO is what you call "WORKS."

It's not about earning salvation; it's about obeying Jesus.

If you don't obey Him (and also teach others that it is unnecessary to obey Him) the you are NOT saved.

And NO, obedience is not automatic just because you believed. Obedience is, according to Paul, accomplished in the midst of unending warfare against the lusts of the flesh.

God does not change.

COL1:21-23 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight —IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

HEB 3:14 We have come to share in Christ IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.

2PE 1:5-10 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For IF YOU DO THESE THINGS, YOU WILL NEVER FALL,

EZE 18:24 "But IF a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, HE WILL DIE.”

I am assuming you understand that the the word "if" introduces a conditional situation.
ATP, you like all OSAS believers, want Jesus only as your Savior but not as your Lord, because deep down you know that obedience doesn't earn salvation, but is the evidence that Jesus our Savior abides in our heart, and the love of sin that OSAS believers refuse to allow the Holy Spirit to remove from their heart condemns even now.

"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" Luke 6:46 KJV

Jesus links obedience with true submission to His Lordship while you continue to foolishly claim that obedience has only to do with the number of jewels in a crown.


J
 

Phoneman777

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FHII said:
What is the bible definition of good works?
To love God and your neighbor pretty much sums up what good works are. If you love God, you won't worship Satan, engage in idolatry, blaspheme Him, or break the seventh day Sabbath, and if you love your neighbor you won't steal from or kill him, sleep with his wife, etc.
 

ATP

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Phoneman777 said:
ATP, I'm sorry but I avoid reading long posts from those with whom I disagree b/c they are usually so filled textual pretexts. I prefer to discuss one point at a time, so as to identify where beliefs begin to diverge, rather than shouting back and forth from one hill top to another.
That's cool. But you won't learn anything that way and will remain ignorant in your false doctrine. We are no longer under the law but under Grace Rom 4:13-25 NIV.

John 6:47 NIV Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

John 10:25-30 NIV Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

Rom 8:1-2 NIV Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 8:31-39 ESV What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.” 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 NIV And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Heb 9:12 NLT With his own blood--not the blood of goats and calves--he entered the Most Holy Place once for all time and secured our redemption forever.

Heb 10:10-12 NIV And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.

1 Peter 1:3-5 NIV Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 John 5:13-14 NIV I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God:

2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:
 

ATP

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Phoneman777 said:
ATP, you like all OSAS believers, want Jesus only as your Savior but not as your Lord,
But if all saints are persevering because of progressive sanctification then how can I say Jesus is not Lord?

contradict / verb (used with object)
1. to assert the contrary or opposite of; deny directly and categorically.
2. to speak contrary to the assertions of: to contradict oneself.
3. (of an action or event) to imply a denial of: His way of life contradicts his stated principles.
4. Obsolete. to speak or declare against; oppose.
 

ATP

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Phoneman777 said:
To love God and your neighbor pretty much sums up what good works are. If you love God, you won't worship Satan, engage in idolatry, blaspheme Him, or break the seventh day Sabbath, and if you love your neighbor you won't steal from or kill him, sleep with his wife, etc.
That's part of it. The other half is believing Phone...

Psalm 127:1 NIV Unless the Lord builds the house, the builders labor in vain. Unless the Lord watches over the city, the guards stand watch in vain.

John 6:28-29 NIV Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" 29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

Rom 3:21-22 NIV But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,

Rom 4:11 NIV And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.

Rom 4:22-24 NIV This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." 23 The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

Rom 10:3-4 NIV Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

1 Cor 15:10-11 NIV But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them--yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

Gal 3:5 NIV Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

1 Tim 4:10 NIV That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

James 2:23 NIV And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend.
 

ATP

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Believing only comes once. Progressive sanctification is a lifetime.

John 3:16 NIV For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
 

ATP

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God is not a liar and is not in contradiction...

Heb 3:14 NIV We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly (hupostasis) to the very end.

hupostasis: a support, substance, steadiness, hence assurance
Original Word: ὑπόστασις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: hupostasis
Phonetic Spelling: (hoop-os'-tas-is)
Short Definition: assurance, substance, reality
Definition: (lit: an underlying), (a) confidence, assurance, (a giving substance (or reality) to, or a guaranteeing, (c) substance, reality.

contradict / verb (used with object)
1. to assert the contrary or opposite of; deny directly and categorically.
2. to speak contrary to the assertions of: to contradict oneself.
3. (of an action or event) to imply a denial of: His way of life contradicts his stated principles.
4. Obsolete. to speak or declare against; oppose.

2 Cor 3:2-5 NIV You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody. 3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 4 Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God.

2 Cor 10:7 NIV You are looking only on the surface of things. If anyone is confident that he belongs to Christ, he should consider again that we belong to Christ just as much as he.

Eph 3:12 NIV In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

Phil 1:3-6 NIV I thank my God every time I remember you. 4In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy 5because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Heb 10:19-22 NIV Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.

Heb 11:1 NIV Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

Heb 13:6 NIV So we say with confidence, “The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can mere mortals do to me?”

1 John 3:21 NIV Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God

1 John 4:17 NIV This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus.

1 John 5:9-14 NIV / Psa 21:4 NIV We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.
 

ATP

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If our salvation is eternally secure, why does the Bible warn so strongly against apostasy?

Question: "If our salvation is eternally secure, why does the Bible warn so strongly against apostasy?"

Answer: The Bible teaches that everyone who is born again by the power of the Holy Spirit is saved forever. We receive the gift of eternal life (John 10:28), not temporary life. Someone who is born again (John 3:3) cannot be “unborn.” After being adopted into God’s family (Romans 8:15), we will not be kicked out. When God starts a work, He finishes it (Philippians 1:6). So, the child of God—the believer in Jesus Christ—is eternally secure in his salvation.

However, the Bible also contains some strong warnings against apostasy. These warnings have led some to doubt the doctrine of eternal security. After all, if we cannot lose our salvation, why are we warned against falling away from the Lord? This is a good question. First, we must understand what is meant by “apostasy.”

An apostate is someone who abandons his religious faith. It is clear from the Bible that apostates are people who made professions of faith in Jesus Christ but never genuinely received Him as Savior. They were pretend believers. Those who turn away from Christ never really trusted Him to begin with, as 1 John 2:19 says, “They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.” Those who apostatize are simply demonstrating that they are not true believers, and they never were.

The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares (Matthew 13:24–30) provides a simple illustration of apostasy. In the same field were growing wheat and “false wheat” (tares or weeds). At first, the difference between the two types of plants was undetectable, but as time went on, the weeds were seen for what they were. In the same way, in any given church today, there may be true, born-again believers side by side with pretenders—those who enjoy the messages, the music, and the fellowship but have never repented of their sins and accepted Christ by faith. To any human observer, the true believer and the pretender look identical. Only God can see the heart. Matthew 13:1–9 (the Parable of the Sower) is another illustration of apostasy in action.

The Bible’s warnings against apostasy exist because there are two types of religious people: believers and unbelievers. In any church there are those who truly know Christ and those who are going through the motions. Wearing the label “Christian” does not guarantee a change of heart. It is possible to hear the Word, and even agree with its truth, without taking it to heart. It is possible to attend church, serve in a ministry, and call yourself a Christian—and still be unsaved (Matthew 7:21–23). As the prophet said, “These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me” (Isaiah 29:13; cf. Mark 7:6).

God warns the pretender who sits in the pew and hears the gospel Sunday after Sunday that he is playing with fire. Eventually, a pretender will apostatize—he will “fall away” from the faith he once professed—if he does not repent. Like the tares among the wheat, his true nature will be manifest.

The passages warning against apostasy serve two primary purposes. First, they exhort everyone to be sure of their salvation. One’s eternal destiny is not a trifling matter. Paul tells us in 2 Corinthians 13:5 to examine ourselves to see whether we are “in the faith.”

One test of true faith is love for others (1 John 4:7–8). Another is good works. Anyone can claim to be a Christian, but those who are truly saved will bear “fruit.” A true Christian will show, through words, actions, and doctrine, that he follows the Lord. Christians bear fruit in varying degrees based on their level of obedience and their spiritual gifts, but all Christians bear fruit as the Spirit produces it in them (Galatians 5:22–23). Just as true followers of Jesus Christ will be able to see evidence of their salvation (see 1 John 4:13), apostates will eventually be made known by their fruit (Matthew 7:16–20) or lack thereof (John 15:2).

The second purpose for the Bible’s warnings against apostasy is to equip the church to identify apostates. They can be known by their rejection of Christ, acceptance of heresy, and carnal nature (2 Peter 2:1–3).

The biblical warnings against apostasy, therefore, are warnings to those who are under the umbrella of “faith” without ever having truly exercised faith. Scriptures such as Hebrews 6:4–6 and Hebrews 10:26–29 are warnings to “pretend” believers that they need to examine themselves before it’s too late. Matthew 7:22–23 indicates that “pretend believers” whom the Lord rejects on Judgment Day are rejected not because they “lost faith” but because the Lord never knew them. They never had a relationship with Him.

There are many people who love religion for religion’s sake and are willing to identify themselves with Jesus and the church. Who wouldn’t want eternal life and blessing? However, Jesus warns us to “count the cost” of discipleship (Luke 9:23–26; 14:25–33). True believers have counted the cost and made the commitment; apostates fail to do so. Apostates had a profession of faith at one time but not the possession of faith. Their mouths spoke something other than what their hearts believed. Apostasy is not loss of salvation but evidence of past pretension.

http://www.gotquestions.org/apostasy-salvation.html
 

Phoneman777

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ATP said:
That's cool. But you won't learn anything that way and will remain ignorant in your false doctrine. We are no longer under the law but under Grace Rom 4:13-25 NIV.
No, ATP, it is you who choose to remain ignorant of the truth that we are saved by grace but we are judged by our works (this has nothing to do with God "determining the number of stars in our crowns, but whether we are saved or lost) because our works are the evidence of whether He Who has saved us by grace sits upon the throne of the heart. A man who allows Jesus to sit there does not surf porn, does not plot evil against his neighbor, does not engage in idolatry which today is anything to do with "pop" culture whether it is sports, music, movies, etc., does not have other gods like Satan before God, etc. OSAS is the futile attempt by those who love sin and desire to continue in it MORE than they love Jesus and desire the Holy Spirit to cleanse them of their vile habits.

Those down here on Earth who break God's law and teach others to do the same are at this very moment being referred to as "the least" by those in heaven who watch in disbelief that such foolishness as OSAS is considered legitimate Bible doctrine. (Matthew 5:19 KJV)
 

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Phoneman777 said:
No, ATP, it is you who choose to remain ignorant of the truth that we are saved by grace but we are judged by our works (this has nothing to do with God "determining the number of stars in our crowns, but whether we are saved or lost)
No, Phone, that's wrong. Believers run the race in order to win crowns in heaven and live out a blessed life in this lifetime. We don't run the race in order to earn salvation. That fight has already been won.

John 16:33 NIV "I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world."

1 Cor 9:24-27 NIV Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

1 - Crown 1 - Crown of Righteousness— Loved the Lord's Appearing - 2 Tim 4:8 NIV
2 - Crown 2 - Incorruptible Crown— Disciplined Bodies / Self-Control - 1 Cor 9:25-27 NIV
3 - Crown 3 - Crown of Life— Endured Patiently through Trials - James 1:12 NIV, Rev 2:10 NIV
4 - Crown 4 - Crown of Glory— Godly Leaders Who were Examples to Flock - 1 Pet 5:2-4 NIV
5 - Crown 5 - Crown of Rejoicing— Soul Winners Crown - 1 Thess 2:19 NIV, Dan 12:3 NIV

Phoneman777 said:
No, ATP, it is you who choose to remain ignorant of the truth that we are saved by grace but we are judged by our works (this has nothing to do with God "determining the number of stars in our crowns, but whether we are saved or lost)
No, Phone, you are in contradiction. Scripture says those who are saved are the ones who have believed in the resurrection and that nonbelievers are the lost. If Christ has not been raised then those who have fallen asleep and are already dead in Christ are also lost, but glory be to God Christ has risen!

1 Cor 15:12-19 NIV But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

Luke 19:9-10 NIV Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

Phoneman777 said:
A man who allows Jesus to sit there does not surf porn, does not plot evil against his neighbor, does not engage in idolatry which today is anything to do with "pop" culture whether it is sports, music, movies, etc., does not have other gods like Satan before God, etc.
Well, that's what nonbelievers do. Believers repent throughout their lives because of progressive sanctification and the perseverance of the saints. You're accusing saints of things they don't believe in. The devil is the accuser Phone. Sounds like a lack of trust and unbelief to me. Sounds like you don't believe in the testimony of the saints. Maybe you should repent of that and stop calling God a liar.

1 John 5:9-14 NIV / Psa 21:4 NIV We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

Rev 12:10 NIV Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.

Phoneman777 said:
OSAS is the futile attempt by those who love sin and desire to continue in it MORE than they love Jesus and desire the Holy Spirit to cleanse them of their vile habits.

Those down here on Earth who break God's law and teach others to do the same are at this very moment being referred to as "the least" by those in heaven who watch in disbelief that such foolishness as OSAS is considered legitimate Bible doctrine. (Matthew 5:19 KJV)
Again, the devil is the accuser, the antichrist spirit....1 John 4:3 NIV but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

You're also in contradiction again of the word of God...

contradict / verb (used with object)
1. to assert the contrary or opposite of; deny directly and categorically.
2. to speak contrary to the assertions of: to contradict oneself.
3. (of an action or event) to imply a denial of: His way of life contradicts his stated principles.
4. Obsolete. to speak or declare against; oppose.

Rom 6:14 NIV For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

1 John 3:6 NIV No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

1 John 5:18 NIV We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them.

The difference between a sinning unbeliever and a sinning believer is that one loves his sin while the other hates it. The believer who stumbles in his walk with the Lord regrets it, confesses it, wishes to never do it again and seeks to appropriate God’s power and grace to avoid it. He doesn’t consider how much he can sin and still be considered a Christian. Rather, he considers how he can avoid even the appearance of sin in the future..http://www.gotquestions.org/sin-Christian.html

- ATP
 

Phoneman777

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ATP said:
No, Phone, that's wrong. Believers run the race in order to win crowns in heaven and live out a blessed life in this lifetime. We don't run the race in order to earn salvation. That fight has already been won.
ATP, you want Jesus as your Savior but not as your Lord. This cannot be.

OSAS is the religion of Cain - a belief that one may obtain God's favor on his own terms instead of Jesus' terms. God says we must daily "abide in the Vine" but OSAS says "abiding or not abiding, I will be saved."

OSAS is the smoothest of all the "smooth sayings" that the Bible warns us of. What could be more smoother a saying than to say, "Hey, keep on sinning because the judgment is only to determine how many jewels you get in your crown, not to determine whether you truly let Jesus in your heart so He could obey His commandments for you, folks."
 

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Phoneman777 said:
ATP, you want Jesus as your Savior but not as your Lord. This cannot be.
I never said that Phone. You are putting words into my mouth and are acting as the accuser...

Rev 12:10 NIV Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.

Phoneman777 said:
OSAS is the religion of Cain - a belief that one may obtain God's favor on his own terms instead of Jesus' terms. God says we must daily "abide in the Vine" but OSAS says "abiding or not abiding, I will be saved."

OSAS is the smoothest of all the "smooth sayings" that the Bible warns us of. What could be more smoother a saying than to say, "Hey, keep on sinning because the judgment is only to determine how many jewels you get in your crown, not to determine whether you truly let Jesus in your heart so He could obey His commandments for you, folks."
You are putting words into my mouth and are acting as the accuser again, and we all know where the accuser comes from...

Rev 12:10 NIV Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.

I suggest you study up and turn away from your apostate heart..http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/22426-heb-6-heb-10-contradictions/#entry273053

:) Rom 10:9-10 NIV If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

<_< Isa 29:13 NIV The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is based on merely human rules they have been taught.

<_< Matt 15:8-9 NIV “ ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 9They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.’ ”
 

Phoneman777

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ATP said:
I never said that Phone. You are putting words into my mouth and are acting as the accuser...
This is EXACTLY what you teach. You teach salvation is unconditional as long as we "believe" that Jesus died and rose again, as long as we "believe" sin is wrong. Brother, if all you do is "believe" you've got nothing on the devils, for they "believe" yet tremble.

We all believe that Jesus is our lone Savior from sin, but OSAS does not believe or accept Him as our Lord to be OBEYED - that's optional for OSAS, else you would quit warring against His commandments, including the Sabbath. Either accept Him as both or neither.