ANALYSIS OF MATTHEW 24:12-13 - WHY IT DISPROVES OSAS
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:huh: Are you serious? I've been preaching that forever! That God will not force anyone to remain in fellowship with Him who chooses to turn back to Satan's service, which is is why I reject OSAS, because OSAS teaches that God will force us to continue in an unwanted relationship with Him, and I've already told you what we call someone who forces another to participate in an unwanted relationship.ATP said:
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Strong delusions, brother. In the OT, Ezekiel 13:22 KJV says the Israelites secured themselves in the false teachings of their religious leaders:mjrhealth said:
"..and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:"
That's exactly what OSAS does - it gives false security by promising life to those who have do not realize that faith without obedience is dead faith, through which eternal life cannot never be obtained.
Notice the red below. The blood of Christ is forever Phone. Does Phone believe He is baptized into Jesus death?Phoneman777 said:
God never promised to force anyone into fellowship. Relationship and fellowship are not the same. You can walk away from your Dad, but he will not stop being your Dad. You are connected by blood, similar to how the believer and Christ are connected by the blood of the cross.
Rom 6:3-7 NIV Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
2 Cor 4:10-12 NIV We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. 11For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that his life may also be revealed in our mortal body. 12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.
Oh, you mean before Pentecost and before the seal of God? Strong delusions indeed.Phoneman777 said:
So than PM if it not be Christ, than what is it you are secure in,??
You know the bit you posted, they would rather believe the lie.
I would like to know why it is that you think OSAS people are not obededient, what makes you think they would go out and murder, what makes you think the yare wiloing sinners.
are you telling me Christs salavtion is a lie, that His cleansing, washing, rebirthing of men is all one big lie, are you telling me that God cant actually save mankind without mans help, are you tellin me tha tman has power over God, enough even to undo all Gods good, work, enough event to.make a kockery of all Christ did. If Jesus didnt die for you that what did HE die for. "the perfect man"
Rom_11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
2Ti_1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Again what is your faith in, whay are you so angry with those who Believe God, is not that what we are supoosed to do, "have FAITH" in Him, or is it that man only has faith in himself???
Or si your sin greater than Gods grace??
Wormwood
Chaps
mj,
Your comments are a misrepresentation of non-OSAS views.
“if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;” (2 Timothy 2:12, ESV)?
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’” (Revelation 2:7, ESV)
“Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.” (Revelation 2:10, ESV)
“The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.” (Revelation 3:5, ESV)
“Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.” (2 Peter 1:10, ESV)
“Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it.” (Hebrews 2:1, ESV)
“but Christ is faithful over God’s house as a son. And we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope.” (Hebrews 3:6, ESV)
“Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.” (Hebrews 3:12, ESV)
“For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.” (Hebrews 3:14, ESV)
Your comments are a misrepresentation of non-OSAS views.
Of course our security is in Christ. However, we come to Christ by faith, not by pan-causal predetermination. Do you believe the unbelieving are secure in Jesus? Why not? Because they dont have faith. Unless you are a universalist, then surely you agree that a person finds security in Christ through faith. If a person rejects the faith, then why would they have security in Christ? Since we agree that the unbelieving do not have eternal life, why would one conclude that having once believed a person can no longer disbelieve? Havent you read,
“if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;” (2 Timothy 2:12, ESV)?
I know this is directed at Phoneman777, and I wont pretend to answer on their behalf. However, the non-OSAS position is not that a person has to be "perfect" to be saved. Rather, our view is simply that they must "believe" to be saved. A person who rejects the faith will be rejected. A person who disowns Christ will be disowned. It has nothing to do with their "works" but rather their "faith." God demands faith and without faith we cannot please him. Just because a person once had faith does not mean they will always have faith. We are called to endure in the faith and to hold fast to our faith. We are "saved by grace through faith." The issue is not grace vs. works, but grace through faith or apart from faith. We maintain that grace only comes "through faith." If a person does not endure in the faith to the end, then the faith they had at the beginning is of no consequence. It matters not how a person starts the race, it matters whether or not they finish if they are to receive the prize. We all believe in grace...but non-OSAS people claim that grace is not a predetermined selection made unilaterally by God. Rather, our salvation is the result of our choice to trust Jesus to the very end...its not a momentary thing that grants us a golden ticket to heaven, regardless of how we live or what we believe in the future. Many start the race just fine, but God calls us to run with endurance so that we finish as conquerors who hold on to Jesus no matter what the storms of life bring.
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’” (Revelation 2:7, ESV)
“Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.” (Revelation 2:10, ESV)
“The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.” (Revelation 3:5, ESV)
“Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.” (2 Peter 1:10, ESV)
“Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it.” (Hebrews 2:1, ESV)
“but Christ is faithful over God’s house as a son. And we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope.” (Hebrews 3:6, ESV)
“Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.” (Hebrews 3:12, ESV)
“For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.” (Hebrews 3:14, ESV)
..and yet, we are more than conquerors. Even Paul is convinced, confident in this...Wormwood said:
More Than Conquerors
31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?
33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.
34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?
36 As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,
39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Wormwood
Chaps
Yes, ATP. We are more than conquerors "through him who loved us." If a person cuts off their connection to Christ through unbelief, then they are no longer in Christ nor do they belong to those that God is "for." Paul has just talked about in Romans 8 that this refers to those who are in the Spirit.
“For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.” (Romans 8:13–14, ESV)
All of God's favor, grace, love and power is at work in those who walk according to the Spirit in faith in Christ rather than the flesh. If a person turns from the faith and Christ, then all this grace does not apply. God's favor does not belong to the unbelieving and carnal.
“For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.” (Romans 8:13–14, ESV)
All of God's favor, grace, love and power is at work in those who walk according to the Spirit in faith in Christ rather than the flesh. If a person turns from the faith and Christ, then all this grace does not apply. God's favor does not belong to the unbelieving and carnal.
But how can we fall back into unbelief if neither present nor future can separate us. Rom 8:38-39, Eph 4:30. :unsure:Wormwood said:
Wormwood
Chaps
ATP, you are attempting to make the text say something other than what it is intending to say.
The point here is simple: Someone can chop off your head, but they cannot separate you from God's love. All of the forces of Satan can attack you, but they cannot separate you from God's love. The future may be uncertain, but what is certain is that there is no situation that can come about which can separate you from God's love. These statements of victory belong to the faithful and those who trust in Jesus.
Paul is saying nothing here with regards to those who do not believe or what happens to those who cease to believe. That is not the focus. The focus here is on the faithful and his point is that there is no external force or power that can pry a person from God's love in Christ. Yet, Paul clearly states in multiple other places that a person can remove themselves from God's love and grace by unbelief.
So, to clarify, Paul is saying, "No external power or person has the ability to separate you from God's love in Christ." If you trust in Jesus, you wont wake up one day to find out some demon robbed your heavenly bank account. That is kinda the point. To use this statement as proof that Paul is arguing that a person cannot turn from the faith is absurd and completely out of context. The context of this is suffering Christians who are persecuted for their faith. The world can persecute and slaughter them, but it wont have any effect on their position in the heart of God. That is the point.
The point here is simple: Someone can chop off your head, but they cannot separate you from God's love. All of the forces of Satan can attack you, but they cannot separate you from God's love. The future may be uncertain, but what is certain is that there is no situation that can come about which can separate you from God's love. These statements of victory belong to the faithful and those who trust in Jesus.
Paul is saying nothing here with regards to those who do not believe or what happens to those who cease to believe. That is not the focus. The focus here is on the faithful and his point is that there is no external force or power that can pry a person from God's love in Christ. Yet, Paul clearly states in multiple other places that a person can remove themselves from God's love and grace by unbelief.
So, to clarify, Paul is saying, "No external power or person has the ability to separate you from God's love in Christ." If you trust in Jesus, you wont wake up one day to find out some demon robbed your heavenly bank account. That is kinda the point. To use this statement as proof that Paul is arguing that a person cannot turn from the faith is absurd and completely out of context. The context of this is suffering Christians who are persecuted for their faith. The world can persecute and slaughter them, but it wont have any effect on their position in the heart of God. That is the point.
The whole reason you're unsure about this is because you don't understand the context and meaning of the scriptures you quote. They are referring to external sources outside of the person that's being assured. If one walks away from the relationship with Jesus, that give them that assurance, then they obviously can no longer have that assurance because they no longer have that relationship. It's simple, except for those who try to make it complicated or do not understand the unequivocal language in scripture and equivocate about it.ATP said:
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Why do people ask the question, "How can we fall back in sin" when the Bible makes it so crystal clear that we may choose to do so?Wormwood said:
"If any man draw back, My soul shall have no pleasure in him."
"...after I have preached unto others, I myself be found a castaway."
"Cast me not away from Thy presence and take not Thy Holy Spirit from me."
"...the love (agape) of many shall grow cold, but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."
Than why is it, that those who say they have a relationship with Jesus, say they have no assurance??? We either have faith or we dont, how can one say they have faith in than in the next breath say they have none because they dont believe they are saved. hence my question to PM,so for all teh non osas what is your faith in if you dont believe God can save you.?
If Gods faithfullness is dependent on mans than we are all doomed.
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You are assigning to the concept of "faith" that which the Bible does not - your belief that faith negates freewill. Nowhere does the Bible say we surrender freewill after we accept Jesus as Savior by faith. We are free to walk away from Him and return to the service of Satan. OSAS comforts those who have chosen to return to their former slave master Satan with the presumptuous assurance that they are yet safely in the arms of Jesus - King David called presumption "the GREAT TRANSGRESSION".mjrhealth said:
Oh but PM that is what it is all about, surrendeirng our free will,
this bit,
Mar 14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
This is where are supposed to get to laying down our lives so His will , will be done not ours.
1Co_15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
Joh 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.
If one cas no confidence in Christ, if one does not believe man can save them, than waht is it they believe in.
Do you really think God would start something if He knew He couldnt finish it, it would make Him out to be just like all these other false Gods that are in mens hearts, with no power.
But as it says.
1Co_1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
It is His power not ours.
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Jesus' struggle against sinning against His Father's will in Gethsemane was so severe that His fight to resist giving into temptation caused Him mental duress to the degree that His sweat became blood.mjrhealth said:
Make no mistake: righteous Jesus could have fallen into sin.
He overcame only by daily prayer, mediation on the Word, and offering Himself daily as a living sacrifice, the very same methods by which we may overcome as well, with no other advantage over us in His struggle against sin.
Therefore, if righteous Jesus could have fallen into sin, what makes OSAS believers demand that the righteous redeemed are incapable of falling into the condemnation of sin, if not that OSAS needs a mechanism by which the delights of sin may be freely indulged with no danger of winding up lost, though Jesus fought against that very same fate until His dying breath?
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Bro, these verses do nothing to refute the fact that the Unmerciful Servant wound up with the same fate as before he was forgiven.ATP said:
OSAS has blinded you to the fact that while God's love is conditional, His promise of salvation is conditional. It is predicated on the condition that we surrender our lives to Him. OSAS allows those who love the delights of sin to freely indulge them while at the same time having the assurance that they are safe in His hand while it is Satan who has them in his clutches. Please turn from this presumptuous lie and get into a continual surrendered relationship with Jesus. He, unlike Satan, is not interested in joint custody.
Jun2u
Well-Known Member
CAN WE REALLY LOSE OUR SALVATION IF WE HAVE BECOME SAVED?
It depends on what we call salvation. If it means I have accepted Jesus and have invited Him into my heart, and and now I'm saved, well I can lose that kind of salvation because that is something that I did and that does not mean I have become born again. Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3, except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God. To be born again is a tremendous miracle that God performs in our heart and He doesn't do it because we tell Him to do it. He does it in His mercy like the publican of Luke 18 who can only plead for that and to have pity on him to trust in the Lord Jesus
Now if I have truly been saved and have become born again, it means that all of my sins have been paid for every last one of them, and that means what sin can I commit that would threaten me with the wrath of God? There is none! THAT'S ANOTHER WAY OF SAYING I CAN'T LOSE MY SALVATION.
John 3:9 reads: Whosoever is born of God doth NOT commit sin; for his SEED remaineth in him: and he CANNOT SIN, because he is BORN of God.
When a born again believer dies his body goes to the grave but in his spirit essence his soul goes to be with Christ in heaven (2Co 5:8). Another proof-text a true believer cannot lose his salvation once saved.
Scripture also declares that we have eternal life, now, in the present tense, and if it is eternal, that means it's forevermore. The Bible says in the closing verses of Romans 8, nothing can separate us in all creation from the love of God. We read in Philippians 2, For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Jesus is the AUTHOR and FINISHER of our faith (Heb 12:2).
The Bible is dripping with promises, indications, and encouragements, plus indeed if you have become a child of God, no way could you ever lose that salvation.
Another scripture that is most quoted and also mostly misunderstood is John 3:16. Majority and if not all who posts in these forums would argue that according to John 3:16 only those (whosoever) who will believe in Jesus will not perish but have everlasting life however, there's a big, big problem with this kind of thinking because the Bible also teaches that there is no one that is righteous no not one, there's none that seeks after God (Ro 3:9-12). Why cannot anyone seek after God? Because he is dead. Spiritually dead and sold to sin that is and a dead person cannot do anything. If this is God's assessment of the human race who then will believe in Jesus seeing no one seeks after God? In all of the world has there ever been such a person, past or present? This is impossible!!
As a matter of fact, Jesus said in John 6:37, all that the Father give me will come to me... and who are these? Lu 1:21 tells us, thou shalt call His name Jesus for He shall save His people from their sins. According to these two passages, the whosoever in John 3:16 are Jesus' people.
Here is a classic example I employ in regards to salvation. Jesus standing at the tomb of Lazarus gives a command, Lazarus come forth! Can Lazarus hear Jesus? Of course not he is a stinking dead corpse, but he did come forth. What had to have happened? Well, Jesus had to give Lazarus life to respond and ears to hear. Just as Lazarus was physically dead so are we spiritually dead, and just as Lazarus was physically deaf so are we spiritually deaf and cannot hear the true Gospel. Did Lazarus play a part in his resurrection? We too must be given life and ears to hear to respond to the true Gospel.
Man would like to think that somehow he can have a part in his salvation. Jesus went to the cross to pay for the sins of everyone they say and by man's free-will can decide whether he wants to be saved or not. Can man make himself to be born again? NO, THAT'S A MIRACLE THAT GOD ALONE PERFORMS!
Those who do not believe in the doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved does not have understanding of what is involved or required in the process of salvation. It is not just a simple fact to believe and accept Jesus. I suggest non-OSAS read Ezekiel 36:24-30 and maybe, maybe they might gain some knowledge that God is the prime mover in all of this.
Also, see how Paul struggled wanting to not sin again in Romans 7:14-25, until he cried, O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion, God declared.
To God Be The Glory
It depends on what we call salvation. If it means I have accepted Jesus and have invited Him into my heart, and and now I'm saved, well I can lose that kind of salvation because that is something that I did and that does not mean I have become born again. Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3, except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God. To be born again is a tremendous miracle that God performs in our heart and He doesn't do it because we tell Him to do it. He does it in His mercy like the publican of Luke 18 who can only plead for that and to have pity on him to trust in the Lord Jesus
Now if I have truly been saved and have become born again, it means that all of my sins have been paid for every last one of them, and that means what sin can I commit that would threaten me with the wrath of God? There is none! THAT'S ANOTHER WAY OF SAYING I CAN'T LOSE MY SALVATION.
John 3:9 reads: Whosoever is born of God doth NOT commit sin; for his SEED remaineth in him: and he CANNOT SIN, because he is BORN of God.
When a born again believer dies his body goes to the grave but in his spirit essence his soul goes to be with Christ in heaven (2Co 5:8). Another proof-text a true believer cannot lose his salvation once saved.
Scripture also declares that we have eternal life, now, in the present tense, and if it is eternal, that means it's forevermore. The Bible says in the closing verses of Romans 8, nothing can separate us in all creation from the love of God. We read in Philippians 2, For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Jesus is the AUTHOR and FINISHER of our faith (Heb 12:2).
The Bible is dripping with promises, indications, and encouragements, plus indeed if you have become a child of God, no way could you ever lose that salvation.
Another scripture that is most quoted and also mostly misunderstood is John 3:16. Majority and if not all who posts in these forums would argue that according to John 3:16 only those (whosoever) who will believe in Jesus will not perish but have everlasting life however, there's a big, big problem with this kind of thinking because the Bible also teaches that there is no one that is righteous no not one, there's none that seeks after God (Ro 3:9-12). Why cannot anyone seek after God? Because he is dead. Spiritually dead and sold to sin that is and a dead person cannot do anything. If this is God's assessment of the human race who then will believe in Jesus seeing no one seeks after God? In all of the world has there ever been such a person, past or present? This is impossible!!
As a matter of fact, Jesus said in John 6:37, all that the Father give me will come to me... and who are these? Lu 1:21 tells us, thou shalt call His name Jesus for He shall save His people from their sins. According to these two passages, the whosoever in John 3:16 are Jesus' people.
Here is a classic example I employ in regards to salvation. Jesus standing at the tomb of Lazarus gives a command, Lazarus come forth! Can Lazarus hear Jesus? Of course not he is a stinking dead corpse, but he did come forth. What had to have happened? Well, Jesus had to give Lazarus life to respond and ears to hear. Just as Lazarus was physically dead so are we spiritually dead, and just as Lazarus was physically deaf so are we spiritually deaf and cannot hear the true Gospel. Did Lazarus play a part in his resurrection? We too must be given life and ears to hear to respond to the true Gospel.
Man would like to think that somehow he can have a part in his salvation. Jesus went to the cross to pay for the sins of everyone they say and by man's free-will can decide whether he wants to be saved or not. Can man make himself to be born again? NO, THAT'S A MIRACLE THAT GOD ALONE PERFORMS!
Those who do not believe in the doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved does not have understanding of what is involved or required in the process of salvation. It is not just a simple fact to believe and accept Jesus. I suggest non-OSAS read Ezekiel 36:24-30 and maybe, maybe they might gain some knowledge that God is the prime mover in all of this.
Also, see how Paul struggled wanting to not sin again in Romans 7:14-25, until he cried, O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion, God declared.
To God Be The Glory
And that PM is always teh issue with those whot try keep teh law and who dont believe in OSAS they are always troubled by sin, always condemend by the very act they are trying to overcome. How can one be in Christ and be troubled by sin. the devil loves sin, He keeps people in bondage to it, thinking they somehow through there own efforts can overcome it, and that my friend is a lie. Christ didnt come to stop you sinning, there is not one single scripture in teh whole bible to that effect, He came so that you would no longer be condemend by it, but to not be condeemned by it you have to be in Christ. There is only two ways to be made perfect, "when we are all changed in the twinkling of an eye", teh other is to die, untill than you and I and the rest of the christians are living in this body, which will do things we dont like, the fact we try to not do wrong is teh least we can Give Jesus.
And teh sweat became blood because He was making teh choice to surrneder His will to God, knowing what would happen, I am sure you would sweat blood too in the same circumstance.
You will never beat your flesh into submisiion it will just keep you a slave to sin.
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OSAS is not a legitimate doctrine because the Unmerciful Servant wound up lost after he was forgiven and freed from his impossible debt, which is a parable Jesus used to illustrate God's forgiveness and salvation for us. Also, the Bible says the saints are known by their agape for God, for others, and their agape perfected in them. Jesus said because of deliberate, known sin, the agape of some saints would "grow cold" and dead, leaving them ex-saints bound for hellfire.mjrhealth said:
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