5 of the more obvious passages about losing salvation

StanJ · Dec 2, 2015

Zachary said:
I know this is a trillion miles over your head, but maybe it will help someone ...

Paul was ONLY writing to the Ephesians were were FAITHFUL saints (1:1).

The letter was indeed directed at the church in Ephesus, but it's applicability is universal to ALL believers, as is ALL of God's word unless addressing a particular issue with a particular group of people, and even then, the principles of God still apply in a broader sense.
Jesus said His earthly mission was ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel, Matt 15:24, so are you a lost sheep of Israel?

ATP · Dec 2, 2015

Wormwood said:
So you think Paul is telling these Romans they are not saved? He says they have been "grafted in" to this tree. He warns them they could be "cut off" from the tree if they do not continue in the faith. Meanwhile, the Israelites were "cut off" from the root and God has the power to "graft them back in" if they do not "continue in unbelief." This analogy of the tree & branches is very different from the parable of the seeds. I dont think we should mix the parables of Jesus in one context with an entirely different illustration about Israel and the Gentiles from Paul.

Correct, they are not saved. They were cut off because they did not have the root of salvation. Once you believe you have eternal life John 6:47. This passage here is not saying "if the branches are holy, so is the root". No, we are only holy because Jesus makes us that way.

Rom 11:16 NIV If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

Zachary said:
I know this is a trillion miles over your head, but maybe it will help someone ...

Paul was ONLY writing to the Ephesians were were FAITHFUL saints (1:1).

Uh no. Eph 1:13-14 is for anyone who comes to faith in Jesus Christ. Once you are sealed, you are sealed until redemption Eph 4:30.

1 Cor 9:2 NIV Even though I may not be an apostle to others, surely I am to you! For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.

2 Cor 1:21-22 NIV Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Wormwood · Dec 3, 2015

FHII said:
Wormwood,

I appreciate your reply. There is reason in it, yet I'm not ready to fully agree.

God's sovereign decree doesn't mean there won't be an individual response. They aren't conflicting points, and I believe the latter is a result of the former. In other words, we do what a son of God does, because God made us to do so. Ever hear the fable of the scorpion and the frog? Same thing, but a different nature.

I do believe we are going to have spiritual battles (doubts, trials of faith, etc), but I also believe God not only predetermined who would persevere, but put those trials there in the first place.

I understand that, for the Calvinist, the sovereign decree is the reason and motivation behind the individual response. I guess my point is that if the response is the result of the decree, then what is the point of warning to not violate God's decree (continue in the faith) if such a violation is impossible? It would be similar to a parent warning a child not to jump so high that they leave the atmosphere or they could die. Such a warning is pointless because it is impossible. If God has decreed a person to be faithful, then why would he warn them about leaving the faith? In my estimation, such theology makes God and His word appear disingenuous.

The only other option, (as I see it) is to imagine this text is not directed at believers. However, both the address of the letter and the context of this passage eliminates this option. If we cannot say that this is written to believers, then it is impossible for us to make any assertions about the audience of the NT. It couldnt be spelled out any more clearly.

Zachary · Dec 3, 2015

StanJ said:
... so are you a lost sheep of Israel?

Baaaaaaah, where iz I?

Jun2u · Dec 3, 2015

Stanj, Justaname, Wormwood

God is the Author of the Bible. Every word and letter in the original manuscripts came from the mouth of God therefore, He is the only One Who can give meaning to a word. So why do theologians, pastors, and Bible students go to secular dictionaries for definitions of a word, instead of searching out the Bible? God gave us two principles by which we may understand scripture texts that is, by comparing scripture with scripture, and spiritual things with spiritual.

The words “foreknowledge”, “foreknow”, or “foreknew” are NOT what you think they mean. God uses the words “know” and “knew” in a more intimate relationship like “love”. For example, we read in Ge 4:1: “And Adam “knew” Eve his wife and she conceived, and bare Cain…”. Another example we read in Mt 1:25 “And “knew” her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son…”.

In the church environment, both the Wheat and the Tares were allowed to grow together so the Wheat might not be rooted out also with the Tares. The Wheat represents the believers while the Tares represented those who “think” they are believers and are really not, to these were the warnings pointing to.

God is all powerful and sufficient to save his elect, as Jesus said, “All that the Father gives me will come to me and I will have lost none pf them.”.

God before the foundation of the world predestined to salvation those whom He fore-”loved”.

Does not this sound familiar how God loved Jacob and hated Esau before they were even born not doing any good or evil?

To God Be The Glory

Wormwood · Dec 3, 2015

God is the Author of the Bible. Every word and letter in the original manuscripts came from the mouth of God therefore, He is the only One Who can give meaning to a word. So why do theologians, pastors, and Bible students go to secular dictionaries for definitions of a word, instead of searching out the Bible?

God communicates to us through human language. Human languages have words which have definitions. The Bible was not written in a vaccuum. It uses language, genre, figures of speech, parables, to communicate the heart of God. The better we understand language, the better we understand what God has said. You should thank God for using scholars who have studied languages or you would have a Greek and Hebrew text before you that you could not understand.

Does not this sound familiar how God loved Jacob and hated Esau before they were even born not doing any good or evil?

You should look up the context of this verse that Paul quotes in Romans. Since you believe the Bible interprets the Bible, I would encourage you to read the context of those OT passages. It is not speaking about God hating the individual, Esau. It is referring to God's special purpose for Israel opposed to not having a special purpose for Edom.

HammerStone · Dec 3, 2015

I still wonder how much of this is a language barrier.

One of the things that I don't see factoring into both sides in the debate is the atemporal nature of God. We sometimes talk about Calvinism/Reformed Theology's intramural debate vis-a-vis Infralapsarianism and Supralapsarianism, but wouldn't the concept that God knew what he knew before creation be in play?

In other words, if God is truly omniscient and omnipotent, then he knew what you would do before effectively decreeing what you would do. There is no amount of new information that God could possibly discover in the process of you living out your life. We really cannot fathom someone not needing to learn and progress through time yet having the same knowledge all along. I don't know that there is a readily applicable analogy. (I'm entirely open to being wrong here...) God literally knew what you've done at the end of your life from the moments that he purposed to form you. He's not learning anything new.

ATP · Dec 3, 2015

Wormwood said:
God's kindness is currently being expressed to them because of they stand by faith but God is "severe" toward those who have "fallen." Paul warns them to "continue in his kindness" so that they will not be "cut off." This has nothing to do with who has "saving faith" (such a term isnt even used). It is about continuing in the kindness they currently know, and the very real possibility of being cut off from that kindness.

This passage is a metaphor...http://www.studylight.org/commentary/romans/11-22.html

Q. Romans:11:22 contains the phrase, “Otherwise you also will be cut off.” So does this mean that we can we lose our salvation, If we do not continue in His goodness?

A. In Romans 8:38-39 Paul said nothing can separate us from the Love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. In 2 Cor. 1:21-22 he said it’s God who makes us stand firm in Christ. He has set His mark of ownership on us and put His Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee of the things to come. In Ephes 1:13-14 he said we were included in Christ when we believed, and were marked in Him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, Who a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance.

How then could he say we will lose our salvation if we do not continue in his goodness? After all, he wrote each of these verses through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The answer is we can’t. If we don’t continue in His goodness, it’s a sign that we never really took nourishment from the olive root.

Remember, the natural branches (Jews) were only cut off because they never believed that Jesus was the Messiah, not because they believed at one time and then stopped. It’s the same with the wild ones (Gentiles). If we are not forever saved, we were never saved.

https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/osas-romans-1122/

FHII · Dec 3, 2015

Wormwood said:
.... I guess my point is that if the response is the result of the decree, then what is the point of warning to not violate God's decree (continue in the faith) if such a violation is impossible? It would be similar to a parent warning a child not to jump so high that they leave the atmosphere or they could die. Such a warning is pointless because it is impossible. If God has decreed a person to be faithful, then why would he warn them about leaving the faith? In my estimation, such theology makes God and His word appear disingenuous.

I'm afraid I didn't do a good job getting my point across. Let me try again.

Before genesis 1:1 God made us, and knew each individual. He made some vessels of honor and some not. He not only knew our nature and destination, he put that nature in us and thus it dictates our destiny.

Some 6500 years later, here we are on earth. Now we have a mortal life to live full of hardships and in sinful flesh. Yet the nature God gave us is still there. Its just waiting to be activated. Once it is it still must be nutured and it still is in a fight.

The hearing of the gospel is what activates it and keeps it active. The promises must be heard; both the good ones and the bad. They are both motivators.

When someone like youself (speaking to wormwood) hears the warnings, are you not motivated? Well, I am too.

God put the promises of eternal life to keep us focused. He put the threats there also to keep us focused. God not only knows who will grasp the rewards, but who will heed the warnings. Furthermore, as I said before he put the nature of individuals in them.

However, the gospel is still part of the plan. Without it, and the hearing of it, none are predestinated to eternal life. And again, the warnings are part of the gospel.

Fortunately, the preaching of the gospel was part of the part of the plan before genesis 1:1 as well.

Let me summarize. The warnings are given because the chosen will respond to them once they are heard. Without them, the plan and method of predestination is incomplete.

ATP · Dec 3, 2015

In fact, Rom 11:16-24 NIV in its entirety is being used as a metaphor for God's relationship with non believing Jews and believing Gentiles..

http://www.tyndalehouse.com/Bulletin/64=2013/06_Khobnya_17.pdf

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=Rom+11:11-24+NIV+metaphor

Zachary · Dec 4, 2015

StanJ said:
The letter was indeed directed at the church in Ephesus, but it's applicability is universal to ALL believers, as is ALL of God's word unless addressing a particular issue with a particular group of people, and even then, the principles of God still apply in a broader sense.

Don't you understand that ...
many of the blessings and promises in Ephesians and Colossians do NOT apply to unfaithful "believers"?
The HUGE problem is that ... unfaithful "believers" sitting in American churches think they do apply to them!

Zachary · Dec 4, 2015

HammerStone said:
I still wonder how much of this is a language barrier.

Aren't you aware of the deliberate "dumbing down" of Americans,
especially through the educational system for 50+ years?
And then there have been the deliberate deceptions from Satan and "the doctrines of men".
It is absolutely NO wonder that people are so messed-up spiritually and every other way.
IMO, all real spiritual Truth (which is deeply believed) came via spiritual revelation from God.
As you know, many "believers" read verses of Scripture, but don't believe them.

ATP · Dec 4, 2015

Zachary said:
The HUGE problem is that ... unfaithful "believers" sitting in American churches think they do apply to them!

That's incorrect terminology. The term "lost" only applies to nonbelievers..Matt 18:12-14 NIV, Luke 19:9-10 NIV, John 10:25-30 NIV, 1 Cor 15:12-19 NIV, 1 Pet 2:24-25 NIV.

Jun2u · Dec 4, 2015

Wormwood said:
God communicates to us through human language. Human languages have words which have definitions. The Bible was not written in a vaccuum. It uses language, genre, figures of speech, parables, to communicate the heart of God. The better we understand language, the better we understand what God has said. You should thank God for using scholars who have studied languages or you would have a Greek and Hebrew text before you that you could not understand.

Are you comparing the Bible written by God to ordinary books written by men? I’m not denying God sent us scholars (Eph 4:11-14), but just because they have a distinguishing title in front of or after their names or how holy they may seem to be, unless they are faithful to the word of God, their best work is still tainted by sin.

Take your case for instance, some of your doctrines are still tainted by sin. Did you not teach that man’s faith saves? Yet, unbeknown to you faith is NOT of (from) yourself, it is a FREE GIFT of God (Eph 2:8-9)! If man’s faith can save himself why would he need a savior? IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE

You should look up the context of this verse that Paul quotes in Romans. Since you believe the Bible interprets the Bible, I would encourage you to read the context of those OT passages. It is not speaking about God hating the individual, Esau. It is referring to God's special purpose for Israel opposed to not having a special purpose for Edom.

.
God told Hagar that He would also bless Esau with many nations and God fulfilled it. Contrary to what you said about Esau God do HATE all workers of iniquity (Ps 5:5).

To God Be The Glory

mjrhealth · Dec 4, 2015

The better we understand language, the better we understand what God has said. You should thank God for using scholars who have studied languages or you would have a Greek and Hebrew text before you that you could not understand.

We should thank Jesus for doing waht He did, so that God could send us the Holy Spirit so that we could be led into the truth Pity He is so ignored.

In all His Love

Wormwood · Dec 5, 2015

FHII said:
I'm afraid I didn't do a good job getting my point across. Let me try again.

Before genesis 1:1 God made us, and knew each individual. He made some vessels of honor and some not. He not only knew our nature and destination, he put that nature in us and thus it dictates our destiny.

I dont believe in divine determinism. The Bible does not teach that God predetermined the fate of people by creating a particular disposition in them to ensure they would act as He had determined beforehand.

When someone like youself (speaking to wormwood) hears the warnings, are you not motivated? Well, I am too.

Yes, but the question is, "Are they genuine warnings (i.e. can a person of faith really fall?), or are they warnings that merely ensure that God's predetermined plan (the salvation of only the predetermined few) is fulfilled and no one of faith actually is lost (thus there is really no real danger). To me, this makes the warnings somewhat disingenuous and strips meaning from the Bible.

God put the promises of eternal life to keep us focused. He put the threats there also to keep us focused. God not only knows who will grasp the rewards, but who will heed the warnings. Furthermore, as I said before he put the nature of individuals in them.

Well, according to what you indicate here, all the elect will heed the warnings, so the warnings have no real meaning. It's like putting a govenor on a car (creating the "nature" a certain way) to max at 55mph and warning a person not to drive over 55. Well, if you preprogrammed their "nature" to behave a certain way, whats the point of telling them not to do something you designed them not to do? I am very uncomfortable dismissing clear warnings in Scripture with an unbiblical philosophy of pan-determinism.

However, the gospel is still part of the plan. Without it, and the hearing of it, none are predestinated to eternal life. And again, the warnings are part of the gospel.

The Gospel is good news for all people. Not just the predetermined few. I abhor the doctrine of limited atonement. I find it contrary to every core Scripture of the BIble that speaks to the heart of God and his desires for all people.

Let me summarize. The warnings are given because the chosen will respond to them once they are heard. Without them, the plan and method of predestination is incomplete.

Well, I think the warnings are there because there is genuine danger and Paul (inspired by the Holy Spirit) really believes it when he says they could actually be cut off. I think God means it too. I hate the concept that says, "The warning merely serves a purpose, but there is no real danger." These ideas only lead people to dismiss meaningful verses in the Bible.

Wormwood · Dec 5, 2015

Jun2u said:
Are you comparing the Bible written by God to ordinary books written by men? I’m not denying God sent us scholars (Eph 4:11-14), but just because they have a distinguishing title in front of or after their names or how holy they may seem to be, unless they are faithful to the word of God, their best work is still tainted by sin.

No. I'm saying the Bible is inspired (unlike other books), but it is still human language. God didnt speak through mystical impulses, but through Koine Greek and Hebrew languages that employ figures of speech, metaphor, must be translated, and so forth. Why are people so quick to be mean-spirited toward believers who have committed decades of their life to study the Bible and its original languages? We should commend such people, not attack them as legalistic Pharisees.

Take your case for instance, some of your doctrines are still tainted by sin. Did you not teach that man’s faith saves? Yet, unbeknown to you faith is NOT of (from) yourself, it is a FREE GIFT of God (Eph 2:8-9)! If man’s faith can save himself why would he need a savior? IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE
.
This is about the most ridiculous statement I have ever read. I already showed you that you are misguided in your interpretation of Eph 2:8-9. The Greek will not allow for "faith" to be the object of "it is a gift from God." Salvation is a gift. Faith is a response. We need a Savior because we cannot save ourselves. God has mandated we "believe" in the Savior if we want his gift of salvation applied to our lives (cf. John 3:16).

God told Hagar that He would also bless Esau with many nations and God fulfilled it. Contrary to what you said about Esau God do HATE all workers of iniquity (Ps 5:5).

Read the story of Esau and I think you will find God does not "hate" him, nor did he predetermined him and billions of others to eternity in hell. God "hated" Esau/Edom, in the sense that he did not preserve them for a purpose (as he did Israel) but allowed them to die out because of their sin. Paul's point is that God is sovereign to choose the plan of salvation (that plan is now salvation to all who believe in Christ) and nations are subject to his plan. The point Paul is making, is that God has not mandated the salvation of Israel simply because they were chosen to being the Savior into the world. This passage has nothing to do with predetermining people for eternal hell.

Wormwood · Dec 5, 2015

mjrhealth said:
We should thank Jesus for doing waht He did, so that God could send us the Holy Spirit so that we could be led into the truth Pity He is so ignored.

In all His Love

I dont think the two are mutually exclusive. Maybe the Holy Spirit also works through scholars that study biblical languages? Imagine that.

mjrhealth · Dec 5, 2015

I dont think the two are mutually exclusive. Maybe the Holy Spirit also works through scholars that study biblical languages? Imagine that.

God forbid, if that where true, we wouild only have one bible, and it would be filled with truth, and we would have no need for forums because all who read it would have the truth and, golly gee, we wouldnt need the Holy Spirirt any more. And teh evidence is all the confusion that is rife on every christian forum every christian church that all preach a differnt gospel a different Jesus all based on "their" understanding. There was a reason why God gives all those who come to Christ the Holy Spirit. So they would have the truth because Jesus is the truth and in Him there is no lie.

in All His Love

FHII · Dec 5, 2015

Wormwood,

It absolutely is possible that a true son of God can fall. That's why he gives warnings. But the true dons of God heed those warnings and thus, won't fall.

You can believe that God doesn't put a nature in us, but I do actually have many instances in the bible that say otherwise. Furthermore, I have a lot of other instances where God actually intervened and thus, free will was null and void. It ceased to exist.

But yes, they are geniune warnings. And the righteous heed them. Without them the righteuos have nothing to heed to and the damned would be able to say, "we weren't told"

For example, read psalms 139 and tell me that David isn't giving God credit for David's nature?

5 of the more obvious passages about losing salvation

Lifelong student of God's Word.

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