Why do people believe in a rapture?

keras · Nov 23, 2015

StanJ said:
Yes, that's right, it was Abraham, but you can't just cherry pick scripture OUT of context. Read Rom 9:6-9 to see who TRUE descendants are, which does not make Gentiles part of it, unless they are physically connect by DNA to Isaac.

There are 12 lost tribes, but this still does not make gentiles one of them, which is why the prophecy in Rev 7:1-8 and 14:1-5 happens.

The world in a group as a whole, John 3:16. There are of course those who accept the promise of salvation, Jesus, or there are those who do not. I guess if you want to use sheep and goats as an example, it is two groups.

I am not cherry picking. Many prophesies say how anyone can belong to Israel and the ten tribes, still in exile, are now deemed to be gentiles. Ezekiel 11:14-16, Isaiah 56:3 and Paul is actually talking to the ten Northern tribes, he knew who they were - Galatians for example were Celtic Saxons [Isaac's sons], in Ephesians 2:11-18
It is evident that those who don't have true descent, will be assigned to a tribe according to their individual characteristics.

StanJ · Nov 24, 2015

keras said:
I am not cherry picking. Many prophesies say how anyone can belong to Israel and the ten tribes, still in exile, are now deemed to be gentiles. Ezekiel 11:14-16, Isaiah 56:3 and Paul is actually talking to the ten Northern tribes, he knew who they were - Galatians for example were Celtic Saxons [Isaac's sons], in Ephesians 2:11-18
It is evident that those who don't have true descent, will be assigned to a tribe according to their individual characteristics.

Well, feel free to SHOW them, I've got plenty of time. Your assertions that some things are deemed, needs to be corroborated, and so far you have NOT.
Opining does not mean TRUTH keras. It just means you yourself are convinced. Now convince us.

keras · Nov 24, 2015

Over 160 times in the Bible, the Jews: the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and part Levi, are mentioned separately from Israel, the ten Northern tribes. 1 Peter 1:1 and James 1:1, knew who and where true Israel were. Josephus also said that the exiled tribes were an uncountable number, scattered around the world. Exactly as God intended and as the Prophets describe them.
Remember that God rejected Israel, Hosea 1:8, but then Hosea 1:9-11 goes on to say how He will again love them.
So at the great gathering into the Holy Land, soon after all that area is cleared and cleansed by the Lord's Day of wrath by fire, Judah and Israel will re-join as per Ezekiel 37 and go back to the Land. Jeremiah 50:4-6, Hosea 11:8-11 and many other verses describing the Second Exodus. Isaiah 11:11-12

We Christians ARE the Lord's people, as the NT makes clear. Therefore, it is us who will live in all of the Holy Land and will receive all the blessings promised. From Rev 7 and 14, it is obvious that the Lord's people will be told which of the 12 tribes they belong to. From each of them 12,000 will be selected to be missionaries of the Gospel and proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus.

Marcus O'Reillius · Nov 24, 2015

keras said:
We Christians ARE the Lord's people, as the NT makes clear.

Paul in the NT also makes the distinction between Israel, a nation of Jews who do not believe in Jesus, and the Church, which does.

And there are more of that than any reference to us being Israel.

So, you have to bring forth evidence that OT prophecy for Israel, is actually for us.

But anytime someone says something is "clear" - I know it is anything but clear, but rather a conclusion they think.

StanJ · Nov 24, 2015

keras said:
Over 160 times in the Bible, the Jews: the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and part Levi, are mentioned separately from Israel, the ten Northern tribes. 1 Peter 1:1 and James 1:1, knew who and where true Israel were. Josephus also said that the exiled tribes were an uncountable number, scattered around the world. Exactly as God intended and as the Prophets describe them.
Remember that God rejected Israel, Hosea 1:8, but then Hosea 1:9-11 goes on to say how He will again love them.
So at the great gathering into the Holy Land, soon after all that area is cleared and cleansed by the Lord's Day of wrath by fire, Judah and Israel will re-join as per Ezekiel 37 and go back to the Land. Jeremiah 50:4-6, Hosea 11:8-11 and many other verses describing the Second Exodus. Isaiah 11:11-12

We Christians ARE the Lord's people, as the NT makes clear. Therefore, it is us who will live in all of the Holy Land and will receive all the blessings promised. From Rev 7 and 14, it is obvious that the Lord's people will be told which of the 12 tribes they belong to. From each of them 12,000 will be selected to be missionaries of the Gospel and proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus.

I know this, but how does THAT relate to THIS issue? Peter was addressing Christians, James was addressing the 12 tribes. We don't need Josephus in this discussion, we have the Bible, which is our arbiter. Josephus' historical account will not contradict what the Bible tells us.

In God's eyes there is NO Jew, NO gentile, NO man, NO woman, NO save and NO free. That does NOT mean they actually don't exist, it means God does not perceive them in that light, but He has made provisions for His chosen People of Israel, that we as Gentiles are not included in as we are all under the NEW covenant. The 144,000 will be chosen AFTER the rapture, and are to evangelize the actual children of Israel, NOT the country.

keras · Nov 24, 2015

StanJ, what you deny is the historical proofs of our ancestry. We are Caucasian people, [judging by your pic? ] originating from the Northern Iran, Georgia area. But that is as far back as anthropologists want to go, because that is the exact area the 10 tribes of Israel were exiled to in 722 BCE.
There are archeological, linguistic, heraldic and documented proofs [the Arbroath Declaration, for example] that the Western nations are, in the main, descended from Israel. They fulfil the prophesied blessings to them in God's plan to disperse them around the world and to lose their identity.

Therefore, we are Israel, just as Paul tells us, it is error to make a distinction between the Church and Israel. Yes, there certainly is a distinction between the Jews and the Church! They face judgement, as many prophesies say.
All believers are now the 'elect or chosen' people.
There is no rapture and the 144,000 will evangelize the world, in the same way as the 72 sent out by Jesus. Luke 10:1-10

StanJ · Nov 24, 2015

keras said:
StanJ, what you deny is the historical proofs of our ancestry. We are Caucasian people, [judging by your pic? ] originating from the Northern Iran, Georgia area. But that is as far back as anthropologists want to go, because that is the exact area the 10 tribes of Israel were exiled to in 722 BCE.
There are archeological, linguistic, heraldic and documented proofs [the Arbroath Declaration, for example] that the Western nations are, in the main, descended from Israel. They fulfil the prophesied blessings to them in God's plan to disperse them around the world and to lose their identity.

Therefore, we are Israel, just as Paul tells us, it is error to make a distinction between the Church and Israel. Yes, there certainly is a distinction between the Jews and the Church! They face judgement, as many prophesies say.
All believers are now the 'elect or chosen' people.
There is no rapture and the 144,000 will evangelize the world, in the same way as the 72 sent out by Jesus. Luke 10:1-10

This is just getting more off the beaten track keras but FYI, I'm from the Picts, who go back to Jesus' time, and I don't really care to go back further than that. Again it would be great if you actually showed some FACTS about your assertions, and not just opinion.

Your jumps in logic are huge and UNSUPPORTED. God promised He would save ALL His people of Israel, a fact which is NOT disputed. You can choose to believe whatever you want, but unless you can back it up, which you haven't, it means as much as ANY other opinion posted on this forum.

Marcus O'Reillius · Nov 24, 2015

keras said:
There is no rapture and the 144,000 will evangelize the world, in the same way as the 72 sent out by Jesus. Luke 10:1-10

Pure fantasy saying the 144,000 will evangelize the world when the Bible says they go wherever the Lamb goes.

Rev 14:4 fittingly enough...

They follow the Lamb wherever he goes.

More fantasy from rabbi keras.

ATP · Nov 25, 2015

keras said:
All believers are now the 'elect or chosen' people.

Correct. All believers are the elect, and where in the chronology of events does the elect take place?

Matt 24:29-31 NIV “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

ATP · Nov 25, 2015

keras said:
There is no rapture and the 144,000 will evangelize the world, in the same way as the 72 sent out by Jesus. Luke 10:1-10

Incorrect. The 144,000 are sealed before the rapture takes place. The church is basically handing the baton over to the 144,000 before we are raptured. God is sealing the 144,000 before they enter the Day of the Lord of trumpets and bowls. God is making sure nothing harms them...

Rev 7:2-4 NIV Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3“Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

keras · Nov 25, 2015

Still stuck on a rapture removal, that is nowhere to be found in the Bible.
There are no 'two peoples, two promises', Israel and the Church.
When you and all the wrongly taught people finally realise these truths, then understanding will illuminate your minds.

Marcus O'Reillius · Nov 25, 2015

Yeah right, and Isaiah 30:26 is God's Wrath on the Day of the Lord...

keras · Nov 25, 2015

Final realization will only come to those who deny what the prophets tell us, when the sky roll up like a scroll, the sun and stars obscured and the moon burning bright red, as a massive CME is about to strike the earth. Malachi 4:1

[SIZE=11pt]Prophecy is for Believers[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] 1 Cor. 14:22b[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]The Bible has plenty of information on how the Lord’s plans have been fulfilled in the past and what we can expect in our future. Also, according to His plan, very few will truly understand the full scope and implications of future events. Daniel 12:10[/SIZE] Some reasons for this are:
[SIZE=11pt]1/[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] Those who may profess to be Christian, but in their hearts are not:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]1 John 4:4-6[/SIZE] Believers in Christ, you belong in God’s family and you can discern false prophets because the God who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. The world listens to the teachings of worldly people, but we belong to God and whoever knows God pays heed to the truth, those who are not His people cannot comprehend the prophetic message.
[SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 29:13-14 [/SIZE]The Lord says: Because this people worship Me with empty words and pay Me lip service, while their hearts are far from Me and their religion is but human precepts, learnt by rote; therefore I shall shock them and shock again and their wisdom and discernment will be lost. Matthew 7:21-23

[SIZE=11pt]2/[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] Belief in false teaching, leading to a fixed mindset of wrong ideas: [/SIZE]Ezekiel 14:3-5
[SIZE=11pt] The prime example of a false teaching is the pre-tribulation rapture. This idea denies many Scriptures that say; all will be tested, 1 Peter 4:12, Luke 21:35.[/SIZE] This leads to a careless attitude toward prophecy. If you believe you are good enough and sufficiently holy to be taken directly to heaven, then you will be judged for judging yourself. Humility and trust in the Lord’s saving grace, Isa 30:15, must be our attitude, not the pretentious belief of a removal from the earth to avoid any perceived difficulties. In John 17:15 Jesus asks for protection, not removal and in John 3:13 No one will go to heaven, only He who came from it.
[SIZE=11pt]2 Peter 2:1-3[/SIZE] In the past, there were false prophets among the people, just as now you will have false teachers. They will promote their theories and speculations, twisting Scripture to suit their fanciful notions. Many will follow their sheer fabrications and credulous people will make them rich and famous, but judgement waits for them: a long prepared destruction will fall upon their heads.
[SIZE=11pt]Jeremiah 23:16-17[/SIZE] The Lord says: Do not listen to your false prophets, who give you false hope and voice their own fancies, it is not the Lord’s Words they speak. They say: ‘prosperity will be yours’ and to all who follow their devious beliefs: ‘No harm will befall you’.
[SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 29:9-12 [/SIZE]The Lord says: I will place My spirit of mis-understanding upon all those who are ‘drunk, but not with wine’ [that is: who allow themselves to be fooled by false teachings], so it becomes impossible for them to see the truth. Isaiah 8:16

[SIZE=11pt]3/ Preterism and non-literal interpretation[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] To think that all prophecies have been fulfilled or they are just metaphors and allegories, is a serious error that leaves those who believe that way, without proper knowledge or understanding about the end times. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]2 Peter 1:19 [/SIZE]We confirm the message of the prophets, to which you will do well to study; it will enlighten your minds, like a lamp shining into a dark place.

[SIZE=11pt]4/[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] Denial or straight out refusal to try to comprehend the prophesies[/SIZE]:
[SIZE=11pt]Ezekiel 33:31-33 [/SIZE]My people will listen to the prophets, but they will not take any action. Fine Words, they will say but with insincerity, for their hearts are set on selfish gain. When disaster strikes, as it will, then they will know the truth of prophecy.
[SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 48:3-6[/SIZE] Long ago, I announced what will happen, but because of your stubbornness and your refusal to accept instruction, you think everything can be explained by chance or by natural occurrence. You read the Word, consider it well and admit the truth of it.
[SIZE=11pt]Hosea 9:7[/SIZE] The Day of punishment and vengeance comes and all Israel will know it. Their prophets are fools and their wise leaders are like madmen, because they are all deep in enmity with God and He will remember their guilt.

[SIZE=11pt]Revelation 22:7b…[/SIZE]Happy is the person who takes to heart the Words of prophecy in this Book.
[SIZE=11pt]Reference: Revised English Bible. Some verses abridged and paraphrased. [/SIZE]

Marcus O'Reillius · Nov 25, 2015

Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Malachi 4:1 does not mean a coronal mass ejection will strike the earth. That is pure fantasy.

ATP · Nov 25, 2015

keras said:
Still stuck on a rapture removal, that is nowhere to be found in the Bible.
There are no 'two peoples, two promises', Israel and the Church.
When you and all the wrongly taught people finally realise these truths, then understanding will illuminate your minds.

The clouds are in the sky keras, and the day of the Lord is God's wrath. We are not appointed to wrath. The sixth seal opens before the day of the Lord. You deny the Word of God.

keras · Nov 26, 2015

Two parrots on their perch. Along comes a fiery wind an blows them down!

StanJ · Nov 26, 2015

keras said:
Still stuck on a rapture removal, that is nowhere to be found in the Bible.
There are no 'two peoples, two promises', Israel and the Church.
When you and all the wrongly taught people finally realise these truths, then understanding will illuminate your minds.

Sounds just like what most cultists say...only they know the truth.

keras · Nov 26, 2015

Three parrots now!
StanJ, you are a serious Bible studier. Please provide the verses proving: 1/ a rapture removal of Christians to heaven.
2/ That God has 2 plans, one for Christians and another for Jews, or Israel.

Who are the cultists? Those who believe in something not actually stated in the Bible, or those who believe what the Bible actually does say.

StanJ · Nov 26, 2015

keras said:
Three parrots now!
StanJ, you are a serious Bible studier. Please provide the verses proving: 1/ a rapture removal of Christians to heaven.
2/ That God has 2 plans, one for Christians and another for Jews, or Israel.

Who are the cultists? Those who believe in something not actually stated in the Bible, or those who believe what the Bible actually does say.

1/ 1 Thess 4:13-18, 1 Cor 15:51-53, Titus 2:13, John 14:3.
2/ Dan 9:24-27, Zech 12:10, Rom 11:25-27.

As I said, cultists are those that think God has given THEM a special insight into His already inspired Word. They are NOT limited to JWs, or LDS or the Dōngfāng Shǎndiàn.

keras · Nov 26, 2015

StanJ said:
1/ 1 Thess 4:13-18, 1 Cor 15:51-53, Titus 2:13, John 14:3.
2/ Dan 9:24-27, Zech 12:10, Rom 11:25-27.

As I said, cultists are those that think God has given THEM a special insight into His already inspired Word. They are NOT limited to JWs, or LDS or the Dōngfāng Shǎndiàn.

Stan's proof of a rapture to heaven:
1 Thess 4:13-18 - No mention of a removal to heaven there.
1 Cor 15:51-53 - No mention of a removal to heaven there.
Titus 2:13 - No mention of a removal to heaven there.
John 14:3 - No mention of a removal to heaven there either! You are just making up the idea of a rapture.

Stans proof of 2P2P;
Daniel 9:24-27 - Just talking about the one people of God there.
Zech 12:10 - The Jews are separate now and they will be judged first, as Zech 13 goes on to describe. The survivors, Isaiah 4:3, will join with all Israel, true descendants of Jacob or those grafted in and all will live in the Holy Land.
Romans 11:25-27 - is talking about those who are still alive after God has dealt with the apostate, atheistic and homosexual current inhabitants of Israel. Ezekiel 21:1-7

The idea of God having 2 plans, is one that has been constructed by the cultic rapture believers: we're outta here, let the Jews burn! Hardly a Christian attitude for starters!

Why do people believe in a rapture?

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