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Cloakk

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Oct 5, 2007
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Hey Guys,I'm a HUGE fan of HardCore music and I've come to note that over the years that many right-winged christians believe this music is sinful. I've even heard things like "Only praise&worship music" is acceptable. Does anybody else here think that? If so why? What do you define as praise & worship? Is it content? Is it things that recognize that we are wretched creatures? Songs that help us reflect on God's grandeur? Songs that reflect a wanting for God?Here's an example of why I have a problem with the exclusivist thinking to music. Let's take a popular praise song like "Hungry"
Hungry I come to you for I know you satisfyI am empty but I know your love does not run drySo I wait for youI'm falling on my knees, offering all of me. Jesus, you're all this heart is living for.
That's sincere. It's nice and says awesome things about Jesus and how our hearts should be towards him.Now let's take some music that would be discriminated against. A cool band called "August Burns Red." Here's the last song on their latest CD, "Messengers." The song is named "redemption"
I trust in you for life to live, and air to breath.Purity fills my lungs.I no longer live in solitude.No longer bound.My heart beats with great devotion.This is the start to a new beginning.On my knees praying for mercy.Hands raised high, humble and broken.Wanting your grace.Wanting your security.Memories of laying face down, motionless, with such a hollow feeling inside.Soon I would end this life I was living.I am just a man with a heart and sinful hands.I am a fallen victim.Lord, show me the way.I ask of you Father, let my words be your words.Let my thoughts be your thoughts.To you, I give my praise.Show me the way.Take me in your arms.Never let me go.Lord, show me the way, as I give myself to you.Never let me go.Hold me with your everlasting love.Be my strength.Be my voice.Be my glory.Set me free.
If you compare the content lyrically, the later song is definitely agreeing with the former. But more than that, the later song is filled with passion. Indeed this song is almost Davidic in passion, content and style. So if this is lyrically sound, and perhaps even more than a popular praise song, why would anyone discriminate against it?
 

Pariah

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Nov 10, 2007
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Hi Cloakk,
Hungry I come to you for I know you satisfyI am empty but I know your love does not run drySo I wait for youI'm falling on my knees, offering all of me. Jesus, you're all this heart is living for.
It goes against the truth. In other words, the words of the song does not reflect your faith currently and it does not reflect the promise for coming to Jesus in the first place.John 6: 35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.The other words of the song acts like you haven't received it yet even though you believe in Him. It seems to be a direct contrast, and makes the hearer think God would let them go so that you have to keep asking to be kept.
I trust in you for life to live, and air to breath....No longer bound.....I am just a man with a heart and sinful hands.I am a fallen victim.Lord, show me the way.I ask of you Father, let my words be your words.Let my thoughts be your thoughts.To you, I give my praise.Show me the way.Take me in your arms.Never let me go...
Some christian rock scares people in Haiti, a culture that shares a practise in voodooism. Former practitioners that hear the music being played on cassette or CDs from the offsprings of the missionary in their home, brought it to the attention of that missionary that the music is the same kind used to summon spirits. So I hope the missionary not wishing to cause offense and to cause a brother to stumble had his children not play those music anymore, but the report was given. So should we just play any music when really alone? I bought a CD that contained one of the songs that was played in the ending on an episode of a television show I used to watch. I had downloaded it onto my computer.. before the updated copyright laws says I couldn't do that, and as I read the words of the song, even though I love the tempo, it did not really reflect my faith so should I say words that deny Him as if I really did walk alone? So I took it off of the hard drive. It was gone completely when it started playing on my computer like some faint echo out of a tunnel, and I didn't push any button to do that. It was weird, but there it is. It makes me wonder about some of the other songs I had listened to in the past. Like Black Sabbath "Paranoid". After listening to it quite a bit, I had a nap, woke up, but I did not open my eyes on my own. I raised my head off of the pillow and spit across from my bed to the pciture of Jesus on my night stand, and as soon as I realize what was going on, I fought against it as my head was lowered unto my pillow and was forced to go to sleep as I growled against the action. When I woke up again, then I knew I was dreaming as I looked to the picture to confirm, and there was no spit on it. So I did not think much of it at the time, but hearing that song on my computer in real life, has made me wonder, especially as witnessed by those that are born again believers that came out of voodooism. So then this comes to the next question.How is God glorified?John 13: 31Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him. John 17: 1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. Where is the Holy Spirit to be glorified in all of this? Yes, He is God, but on the subject of worship and glory and praises in the hymnals, where is the Holy Spirit to be gloried, or to be praised, or to be worshipped? I cannot find that practise anywhere in the New Testament. What I do find is HOW one worship... as IN Spirit... not OUT of Spirit.John 4: 18For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly. 19The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.Notice how He pointed out whom the "true worshippers" are? Is that significant enough to apply with these verses below about going to a place where Christ is.. or that "Spirit of Christ" when we are to worship God IN Spirit and not OUT of Spirit, calling for the "Spirit of God" to fall on them?Matthew 24: 23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25Behold, I have told you before. 26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 2 Corinthians 13: 5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?But yet, we can see in some of the hymnals how one can disregard God's Words and just follow the crowd.Again, is it not written for a reason why the Holy Spirit is not mentioned in regards to glorying God as God with the Father and the Son? Is it not written to baptize in all of the three names? And yet, God the Father is only glorified througth the Son. By glorifying the Son, so id the Father. Where is the Holy Spirit in all of this glorying?John 16: 13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. Now note... same author.. same book... so I do not believe the absent of worshipping the Holy Spirit or glorifying the Holy Spirit with God the Father and the Son was an oversight. Why?John 5: 22For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. So when you stop honoring the Son....you are not honouring the Father. The Holy Spirit seeks to glorify the Son and tesify of Him, and so it is written plainly for us to do also.John 15: 26But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.So from this, true worshippers should worship God in Spirit and in truth, and our hymnals should reflect that faith so as to not glory in the day of Pentecoste as if it is an ongoing event in the life of a believer. We can baptize in the name of the Father, the son, and the Holy Ghost as a witness that the three are One God, BUT scriptures declare how we are to worship and praise and give glory to God.Philippians 2: 9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. How we sing and what we sing from our hymnals should reflect the faith we have in Jesus Christ as we worship God IN Spirit and IN truth...for truly, the only way to honor the Father is through the Son and the only way to glorify the Father is through the Son, thus worshipping God IN Spirit and IN truth. If that is what the Holy Spirit in us is doing in glorifying the Son and bearing testimony of the Son, then so should we. Why give praises or worship or glory to the Holy Spirit if the indwelling Comforter does not seek it nor is it written in His Word for us to do so?How important is this? As some reported getting drunk in the Spirit when they worship the Spirit to the extreme in its visitations...take note of verse 26 below.Luke 13: 24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.I know that not everyone that sing those errant hymnals go in that direction, but no one can say that those hymnals don't point people in that direction... so why sing the hymnals that broadens the Way? According to His Words, let our hymnals reflect our faith so that none may go astray.To show what hymnals I am referring to as examples:
"Praise God, from Whom All Blessings Flow" which is also known as the "Doxology". I know shiloh has asked for text, but I am not certain I should show all of it, but I think I am allowed to point to the error. In the last verse, it starts from praising the Father and the Son.. and then went on to the Holy Ghost.
http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/p/r/praisegf.htmAnother one is entitled: "Glorify Thy Name" by Donna Adkins. There are three stanzas. I have sung it on numerous times in the past, but towards the latter days of my attending my former church before I left, I was convicted to not singing that last verse that the Lord through Holy Spirit in me did not want me to do according to His Words. entire text at this link: http://www.worshiparchive.com/worship_chor...sp?t=song&id=67May the Lord guide you in discerning other hymns in regards to the Holy Spirit. I'm sure if you look in the table of content with the listing of hymns, you would find some centered on the Holy Spirit by the title alone! It does not reflect our faith if believers are singing it to happen!"O Holy Spirit, Enter In"http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/o/h/ohsentin.htm "Spirit of Faith, Come Down"http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/s/p/spifaith.htm"SPIRIT OF GOD, DESCEND UPON MY HEART"http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/s/o/sogdumyh.htm"SPIRIT OF GOD, THAT MOVED OF OLD"http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/s/g/sgtmoold.htm"SPIRIT OF HOLINESS, DESCEND"http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/s/o/h/sohodesc.htmAnyway, these hymnals are misleading as even some believers are praying to the Holy Spirit, and why not? The hymnals do it! But His Words say the indwelling Holy Spirit seeks to point us to Jesus. The Holy Spirit is the Comforter as Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and man.That is why some of the hymnals are unscriptural, and do not represent the current faith of the believer.A little leaven leavens a whole lump. That is why wayward believers seek after another spirit to receive which is after the rudiment of the world in how they seek after other spirits, but we have received the promise of the Spirit when we believed on Jesus as Our Saviour. Ephesians 1:12-15 & Galatians 3:14 & Matthew 9:17 & Colossians 2:5-10Thus the need to be seperate from the world. Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.May the Lord continue to help me to do this. Amen.
 

Jordan

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Apr 6, 2007
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I sing to the LORD with His words. All of His songs are melodies, they are wonderful spiritual songs. Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16. We must be careful on what we listen to, is because the words proceeds out of the mouth cometh from of the heart.Matthew 15:18-19 - But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:If the message is NOT glorifying Him in anyway...Whatsoever not of Faith is sin. (Romans 14:23)Ecclesiastes 7:5 - It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise, than for a man to hear the song of fools.I'm not interested in "Christian rock" or any other rock, whether hardcore, soft rock etc...I'm only interested in Faith.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
 

Squeak

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Nov 13, 2007
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I don't think it is so much an issue of it being "sinful" as much as it is the sound of the music. I did go over to Itunes and listened to the song you referenced by August Burns Red as well as sampled a couple of the other songs on that album. I wasn't able to distinguish a single word that they were "singing". I use the term singing lightly because to me it just sounded like monotonous yelling (and sounded like that in every song I heard) which may or may not be because they are passionate about what they are singing. I don't know. Now please don't take offence to what I said regarding your favourite music. I will admit I have never before today listened to hardcore music so this was just my first impression. To me, this type of music doesn't seem to fit the "psalms, hymns and spiritual songs" that the bible speaks of, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is wrong or sinful. The message of the song, in my opinion, is what is most important, but I think the way the song is sung can impact how the listener feels. Listening to the group you referenced, it came across as extremely angry and not what most people would consider Christian songs to sound like.Part of the reason alot of Christians dismiss this type of music could also be because this group probably sounds and aweful lot like other musicians who are known to be permiscuous, drug addicted, foul-mouthed human beings who sing songs that promote this type of behaviour so because the music sounds similar, they may believe all music of that type is the same. This is definately not music that I enjoy, however I am in no way qualified to judge the frame of mind or sincerity of the words being sung nor the impact it may have on you as a listener.
 

Cloakk

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Oct 5, 2007
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Hey Pariah,Wow that was a lengthy response. Although, I’m not perfectly convinced you dealt with the issue at hand. Nonetheless, I’m going to consider what you’re saying piece by piece. Please, rest assured, I read your entire post (I may have missed a subtle thing or two, I’m not perfect).First I’d like to deal with your claim about emotional direction (wanting god).
The other words of the song acts like you haven't received it yet even though you believe in Him. It seems to be a direct contrast, and makes the hearer think God would let them go so that you have to keep asking to be kept.
From what I see, there’s nothing wrong at all with the want of God. There’s no words that explicitly or inherently say “God, I don’t believe in you, gimme some good stuff.” If you don’t yearn for God’s blessings than you probably think you’re perfect. Sorry to burst bubbles, but no one’s perfect and everyone should be wanting more of God. I’d like to also note that lyrics like this are typical of people who believe in God and that have a contrite heart towards him would admit that he is the living water or the Bread of life. If you’re not a Christian, or if you don’t believe in God, you wouldn’t say these things.Now it’s possible that you may refute that based on my opinion versus yours, and you’d be correct. My opinion isn’t solid ground, so let’s look at scripture and wanting: Psalm 13
1 How long, O LORD ? Will you forget me forever? How long will you hide your face from me? 2 How long must I wrestle with my thoughts and every day have sorrow in my heart? How long will my enemy triumph over me? 3 Look on me and answer, O LORD my God. Give light to my eyes, or I will sleep in death; 4 my enemy will say, "I have overcome him," and my foes will rejoice when I fall. 5 But I trust in your unfailing love; my heart rejoices in your salvation. 6 I will sing to the LORD, for he has been good to me.
We know David as a friend of God, yet here we see a yearning for God. “Give Light to my eyes, or I will sleep in death” is exactly the type of sentence you had mentioned before as untrue, or not reflective of our current state of faith. Yet David a man after God’s heart who was closer to the Lord then we will ever be showed a desperate yearning, claiming death if God did not meet it. Let’s check out another example, Jesus: Matthew 6:9-13 , the Lord’s Prayer
9"This, then, is how you should pray: " 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. 11Give us today our daily bread. 12Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.[a]' 14For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
In here, from the mouth of Jesus, is a prayer that asks us to petition God for bread, for forgivness & strength. Also, a yearning and calling for God’s kingdom. I’d say in light of this data, lyrics of yearning like “Hungry I come to you for I know you satisfy” are not only perfectly acceptable, but they reflect the heart of true Christian yearns for God’s “food.” Again, I reflect on the hardcore song I showed you, which contains lines similar to this: “I trust in you for life to live, and air to breathe…” Sounds like it’s all good stuff. Here again is another example of this song reflecting a heart that’s according to the bible: Psalm 51:1
BE gracious to me, O God, according to Thy lovingkindness; According to the greatness of Thy compassion blot out my transgressions.2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, And cleanse me from my sin.3 For I know my transgressions, And my sin is ever before me.4 Against Thee, Thee only, I have sinned, And done what is evil in Thy sight, So that Thou art justified when Thou dost speak, And blameless when Thou dost judge.
Wow, David is totally dealing with his sins here in a proper and contrite manner. So is this hardcore song, again…
My heart beats with great devotion.This is the start to a new beginning.On my knees praying for mercy.Hands raised high, humble and broken.Wanting your grace.Wanting your security.
Ok, so that’s been taken care of. Section two involves your opinions about interpretation of music and sounds. Now, Haitians think that HxC music sounds like the devil or like voodoo chants... I think some hymnals sung in some orthodox churches sound like cultic chants. But that’s not a very good basis on what’s good or not. That’s all personal interpretation. People used to think the organ was evil. Same thing about guitars. Since we’ve figured out that’s not evil I’d say this point is moot.
I sing to the LORD with His words. All of His songs are melodies, they are wonderful spiritual songs. Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16. We must be careful on what we listen to, is because the words proceeds out of the mouth cometh from of the heart.Matthew 15:18-19 - But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:If the message is NOT glorifying Him in anyway...Whatsoever not of Faith is sin. (Romans 14:23)Ecclesiastes 7:5 - It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise, than for a man to hear the song of fools.
Agreed Jag. Amen to that. It is indeed the things that come out of a man that make him unclean. As I’ve pointed out there is nothing coming out of this music that is unclean. Only your interpretation of the form of music. Remember that the bible makes little mention about style of worship, but makes much mention about the heart of worship. I’ve thus far, shown the heart of Christian hardcore music to be in the right place, proclaiming the right things.The last point that Pariah’s made here is about what we’re worshipping. I’m sorry, but I believe this is a digression from Topic. Both songs I quote worship God. None of them worship the spirit. If anything your arguments would go to outlaw any music (which is indeed what I get from your post). But that’s ok, on this you have made a decent point. Nonetheless it is a point that isn’t valid here because it doesn’t have to do with any presented data or questioning.I’d like to say thanks to squeak. Man you said something logical about this, actually examining interpretation and why. I’m glad you brought the point up:
Part of the reason alot of Christians dismiss this type of music could also be because this group probably sounds and aweful lot like other musicians who are known to be permiscuous, drug addicted, foul-mouthed human beings who sing songs that promote this type of behaviour so because the music sounds similar, they may believe all music of that type is the same.
However, this is also negated by any and all other forms of music. Some praise music sounds similar to r&b songs. Many R&B songs talk about sex, and not within the bonds of marriage. Again, much lighter forms of rock are the same. Let’s take a band like Sublime. There’s not heavy or harsh in the music. Christian music groups use similarly styled music. However, Sublime’s music deals with drug addiction, sex. The guy eventually killed himself. I think, Squeak, that you’ve presented a good reason for why people dislike it, so I thank you. But you haven’t presented a proof that claims HxC (Hardcore) music should be looked down upon and considered evil.
 

Squeak

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Nov 13, 2007
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[/QUOTE]I think, Squeak, that you’ve presented a good reason for why people dislike it, so I thank you. But you haven’t presented a proof that claims HxC (Hardcore) music should be looked down upon and considered evil.[/QUOTE]You're correct, because I don't feel that Christian Hardcore (or any other type of music for that matter) should be looked down upon or considered evil as long as the artist/band/singer/writer of the music is doing so to worship and give praise to God in the right frame of mind and heart. I think it is the message of the song that is important, in my opinion. If any song regardless of genre promotes promiscuity, sends messages of worshiping money, degrades anyone, etc, it should not be promoted by radio stations or record companies whether the listeners are Christian or not. Generally speaking there are Christian bands in all genres of music but it is up to the listener to discern what songs/bands, in their genre of choice, are appropriate to listen to in order to promote praise and worship to God.So I will not judge any band or listener by their musical genre preferences but by the messages they portray. Everyone has different taste in music, if Hardcore is yours, then just make sure that the music, whether it be Christian or mainstream music, is not promoting evil or sinful with it's intentions.
 

Cloakk

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Oct 5, 2007
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(Squeak;26393)
Generally speaking there are Christian bands in all genres of music but it is up to the listener to discern what songs/bands, in their genre of choice, are appropriate to listen to in order to promote praise and worship to God.So I will not judge any band or listener by their musical genre preferences but by the messages they portray. Everyone has different taste in music, if Hardcore is yours, then just make sure that the music, whether it be Christian or mainstream music, is not promoting evil or sinful with it's intentions.
Touchdown!
 

Pariah

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Nov 10, 2007
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Hi Cloakk,
The last point that Pariah’s made here is about what we’re worshipping. I’m sorry, but I believe this is a digression from Topic. Both songs I quote worship God. None of them worship the spirit.
I thought I was answering the question in your first post. I believed it branched out into the area of wanting for God as in how people today want the Spirit Whom is God also.
I've even heard things like "Only praise&worship music" is acceptable. Does anybody else here think that? If so why? What do you define as praise & worship? Is it content? Is it things that recognize that we are wretched creatures? Songs that help us reflect on God's grandeur? Songs that reflect a wanting for God?
However, if you wish to refine the parameter, that is okay.In referencing the Psalm, the conditions for a believer then is different than it is now. David was under the Law as we are not. The striving to be His was to be done by the deeds of the Law whereas we have become His by the faith in Christ. We are not becoming His. We have been bought with a price and sealed with the Spirit of promise and thus are His. How we live that life by faith whethor we walk with Him or not is the course of the believer, but to act like or sing like that they haven't enter into that rest yet is an example of labouring in unbelief. And yes, we shall need Him to help us live as his, but we are still His which is the joy of salvation and His glory.
*Quoting on the Lord's Prayer*: In here, from the mouth of Jesus, is a prayer that asks us to petition God for bread, for forgivness & strength. Also, a yearning and calling for God’s kingdom. I’d say in light of this data, lyrics of yearning like “Hungry I come to you for I know you satisfy” are not only perfectly acceptable, but they reflect the heart of true Christian yearns for God’s “food.”
The daily bread is not the living bread representing Jesus. That is daily provision for food.John 6: 33For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. 34Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. 35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. It is in that ...once saved.. you should never hunger nor thirst for God again because He is in you, filled to the rim and sealed as new creature in Christ, thus preserved and thus saved and thus His.Matthew 9:17Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.So it is in this I address the "hungry I come to you for you satisfy" quote. If in addressing Jesus, He promised we would never hunger again for coming to Him. But of course, for daily food as in the Lord's prayer, we would continue to hunger for that as long as we are in this body. Make no mistake, the faith is not being mentioned here when addressing a hunger for Jesus or for God. That quote is what is being used for those seeking a continual filling of the Spirit which is also not of the faith. Because of the apostasy in that area of songs, is why I see the song you quote as not of faith either. There is no more hungering for God or more of God or wanting God as if He is not in you. There is a completeness in Christ that must be declared to rest in Him as God.Now walking with Him as sowing to the Spirit as opposed to the flesh is another matter altogether, but that is remaining filled as opposed to sowing to the flesh. You don't lose the holy Spirit for He is with you always, but hard to walk in the Spirit if one walks after the flesh also. But I digress, sorry. Just explaining the only thing one would want more of... but that is in regards to how we walk.. not singing for it or praying for it like an instantaneous thing to occur ( except to ask for forgiveness of sins) for this is where our words match our walk as we follow Jesus by faith. But I better get back to the topic.Anyway, from the orginal parameter of the questions you had asked, I was referring to apparently songs of worship which you were not alluding to, but yet they do address God for the Holy Spirit is God. It's just that songs are not to be addressing the Holy Spirit in worship since the holy Spirit seeks to lead us to testify of Jesus Christ and thereby glorify Jesus Christ and thus should the songs also for the only way to glorify God the Father.. is through the Son... as we do so IN Spirit and IN truth in worshipping God the Father.So in the messages portrayed in the songs, I am a bit more discriminating because of the parameters I see in the commandments given to honor the Son. One must consider if the words of that song deny any part of the truth regarding Him or our faith in Him.As for christian rock and any other musics, trust Jesus as your Good Shepherd to make the "touchdowns" in that arena for what is acceptable to be hearing and what is not. Since the eye is one source of what goes in... so must the ears be also. Right?Matthew 6: 22The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. 23But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!Anyway, as I shared what had happened to me in regards to a secular song with that catching tune of "I walk alone, I walk alone", yet it would be wrong for me to sing it for it denied Him. I do not walk alone, and it seemed odd that some weird supernatural occurence happened when I decided to get rid of it off of my computer. But that was done by the Lord being My Good Shepherd in leading me to think about what was coming out of my mouth or going into my ears (one ear since I am deaf in the left ear) to entertain myself with.Anyway, bottomline, trust the Lord to lead you away from songs that does not reflect your walk of faith in Him.Thanks for sharing.
 

Cloakk

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Hey PariahI guess you were answering my post. I suppose I should have made it apparent and/or clear that I intended to defend HxC music. I’m sorry if anything I said felt like any personal shots.
In referencing the Psalm, the conditions for a believer then is different than it is now. David was under the Law as we are not. The striving to be His was to be done by the deeds of the Law whereas we have become His by the faith in Christ. We are not becoming His. We have been bought with a price and sealed with the Spirit of promise and thus are His. How we live that life by faith whethor we walk with Him or not is the course of the believer, but to act like or sing like that they haven't enter into that rest yet is an example of labouring in unbelief. And yes, we shall need Him to help us live as his, but we are still His which is the joy of salvation and His glory.
I think you make a decent, thought-out point here. We do live in a different spiritual age. However I disagree on the implication. For one, I think that one can hunger for food you have. When you're at home and you feel hungry. You then go to eat. Hunger has effectively reminded of one of your body's vital needs. Even though, it is essentially a non-issue (because there's a lot of food in your house) the feeling stirs positive action for your body. Is hunger, then, an illegitimate feeling? That's kind of philosophical so I won't stress it too much. What bothers (for lack of a better word) me the most about your statement is this: I fear that in your perspective, we would do away with most of the Old Testament under the notion that it is no longer applicable to our age. I don’t know any scripture to support the idea we should do that. I know that Jesus claimed to be the completion of the law, not to abolish it. Furthermore, I re-iterate that David was a “friend of God.” Provided that you accept the validity of David’s witness and life, then I would accept that his model is perfectly acceptable in our modern spiritual era.
So it is in this I address the "hungry I come to you for you satisfy" quote. If in addressing Jesus, He promised we would never hunger again for coming to Him. But of course, for daily food as in the Lord's prayer, we would continue to hunger for that as long as we are in this body.
As far as the Lord’s prayer is concerned, I appreciate the fact that it is talking about physical bread. It’s hard for me to say whether this is explicitly physical though, but that maybe just my opinion. Anyway, you also mentioned that as long as we are in this body we continue to hunger physically. I would state that because of this sinful state we would also “feel” hunger for God as well. Again, this isn’t hard, sola scriptura, evidence, because it is based on my opinion.I wonder about asking for things like this. I think we agree that we can ask for forgiveness over and over again, even though we have it already. I also know that Jesus spoke about a woman who visited a Pharisee so many times (petitioning for justice) that he granted it to her. Jesus mentioned we should be like this. Knowing that, I have a hard time separating justice, forgiveness and God’s spirit, if I may use the words. What is it, in your opinion that makes one inexcusable, or incorrect, to ask for over the other? Maybe I'm wrong, but I think we have ultimately(or eternally) been given forgiveness and justice. We're allowed to ask for that but not to hunger for God?Again, I refer to Elisha(?) who asked for double the portion of spirit that Elijah(?) received. Again, this maybe moot for you since, in your opinion, the difference in spiritual era’s disqualifies statements such as these.Thanks for responding though. Although, I don’t agree with all your conclusion because of the aforementioned reasons, I cannot dismiss you based on your logic. Within itself, what your saying makes good sense. Like I said, I feel it lacks elements of the bigger picture. Anyways, perhaps I should search for more scripture on this (or the lack of). I have to admit, at the very least, that you have a convincing point about worshiping the spirit. I’d like to note that my religious background hastens me to side with you on “Holy Spirit” worship. I haven’t really seen an argument against this idea, so I can’t say I fully agree, simply because I do not have enough data to make a firm decision on that. At least, I cannot disagree.
 

Mighty Bear

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Music is about the soul, about the heart, about the moon (in real angelic astrology),music is food for the soul and the language of angels."If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal." (1 Corinthians 13:1)Listening to music is not a sin, just beware of food offered to idols.
 

Wakka

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Music is about the soul, about the heart, about the moon (in real angelic astrology),music is food for the soul and the language of angels."If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal." (1 Corinthians 13:1)Listening to music is not a sin, just beware of food offered to idols.
We are told to glorify God in everything we do. 1 Corinthians 6:20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
 

Pariah

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Hi Cloakk,
Jesus mentioned we should be like this. Knowing that, I have a hard time separating justice, forgiveness and God’s spirit, if I may use the words. What is it, in your opinion that makes one inexcusable, or incorrect, to ask for over the other?Anyways, perhaps I should search for more scripture on this (or the lack of). I have to admit, at the very least, that you have a convincing point about worshiping the spirit. I’d like to note that my religious background hastens me to side with you on “Holy Spirit” worship. I haven’t really seen an argument against this idea, so I can’t say I fully agree, simply because I do not have enough data to make a firm decision on that. At least, I cannot disagree.
I believe that you sahould trust the Lord in this matter to discern the issue regarding the spirit. If you nore Ephesians 1:12-23 it states how one receives the spirit as promised for coming to Jesus. This would allude to the being filled as never hungering for God in that respect towards the Spirit as promised for "coming" to Jesus in John 6:35. God gave out only one kind of invitation and they may come in different forms, but they were all directed to His Son in order to relate to God the Father. Because there are other spirits in the world, we have already received the Spirit and as we are led by the Spirit to testify and glorify Jesus Christ in a partnership in ministry, neither the Spirit within us nor us is to be exalted in worship. To be a true witness is not to speak of yourself: John 5:31 which man is not to do John 7:18 and since the Holy Spirit is God, He shall not fail that in His Divine role as the faithful Witness of the Son in order to glorify Him, John 16:13,14.. thus as John the Baptist had witnessed and he was the prophesied voice in the wilderness with his own spectacular beginning from conception, John 3:28-30 so it is that we with the Holy Spirit in us should decrease in speaking of ourselves in bearing witness of Jesus so that He may increase in our testimonies of the Son: John 15:26-27.Since the world has in its rudiment as in their methods in seeking after the spirits as it comes again and again, so it is in this when believers depart from the faith to seek after the Holy Spirit or for more of the infilling as if they are leaky vessels which He said we are not.. Matthew 9:17 and that we are complete in Christ in regards to the Spirit: Colossians 2:5-10 for which there is no more hungering nor thirsting after the Spirit of God for which we can rest in Jesus John 6:35 again because in the latter days, they shall depart from the faith... 1 Timothy 4:1-2 as they would call for the Holy Spirit again and again in complete hypocrisey when He is in us according to the faith, 2 Corinthians 13:5. Thus are they not understanding the role of the Holy Ghost as the Divine Witness in leading us to witness, thus they broaden the Way to go after seducing spirits and doctrines of devils by no longer resting in Jesus nor His promises of the Spirit by hungering in that disrespect towards the belief of the truth. It is the focus on Whom is the Way as Jesus is the Way in which the indwelling Holy Spirit would points us towards as Jesus is Our Good Shepherd. False prophets would broaden the Way by placing the Holy Spirit in the spotlight with Jesus for which the indwelling Holy Spirit would not lead a believer to do by the witness factor and as His role in being the Comforter as promised by abding in us always as that would be the only Way we shall receive Him by Jesus and thus inside of us.. the only way we shall know Him and thus bear witness of the Truth. John 14:6,15-17.Anyway, just answering your question as to why that was important as unscriptural hymnals have crept in redirecting focus from seeking the face of Jesus to spirit worship which is after the world. Even errant doctrines of seeking an infilling of the Spirit or to seek another baptism of the Holy Spirit which comes with evidence of tongues which has no interpretation and can be found in the world In Hinduism and voodooism as it is gibberish also.. or just seeking another spirit to receive is enough for the new age method to join in and yet we are called to be seperate from the world... as our faith should be in songs, words, and actions.John 5:39-40 it is by not coming to Jesus as anti-christ means "instead of christ", that we should be concern about since there are no invitations to the Spirit and yet the invitations are considered even commandments still for the life of the believer in their relationship with the Bridegroom as we are the Bride. Luke 13:24-30May the Lord cause the increase in what I have shared with scriptures for I know I cannot impart wisdom; only the Lord can in directing your focus in regards to music.2 Corinthians 3:5-6 & 1 Corinthians 3:5-7 & 2 Corinthians 4:5-7
 

Tyrel

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I've been reading through the thread, and I must say that I agree whole heartedly with Cloakk. This is an issue of particular significance to me, as I also adore Hardcore. The quickly changing rhythms, the amazing messages and intense deep meanings. I can't get enough of it.(Wakka;26485)
We are told to glorify God in everything we do. 1 Corinthians 6:20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
I've already been through this with you, haven't I Wakka? :cool:This music glorifies God beyond doubt. I showed you the lyrics to some of my favorite Hardcore songs. Did you end up reading them at all?Here's a list off the top of my head, of some really good songs to check out.Zao - EmberThe Chariot - and shot each otherInhale Exhale - A call to the faithfulUnderoath - In regards to myselfZao - Truly Truly, This is the EndZao - The Latter RainAs I lay Dying - Behind me lies another fallen soldierDemon Hunter - Not IDemon Hunter - Storm the Gates of HellThrice - Paper Tigersok, so it's not very diverse {and not even all strickly "hardcore"}, but it was just off the top of my head. For those of you who question what Hardcore is being "understood" as, by the hardcore fan. Well, for people who enjoy hardcore, the screaming isn't revolting, or angry. The screaming is a style, which is much appreciated. I hear a good vocalist scream properly, and I'm right into the music. If they can't control their pitch well, then they aren't very good.If you want a good example of a Woman who can control her voice incredibly, and who is a Christian vocalist for a band called Flyleaf, then check them out here;www.purevolume.com/flyleafListen to "I'm so sick", and keep in mind that she is the only vocalist. You will be in for the shock of your lives. :cool:All this to show though, that it's just a style. It's not necessarily meant to portray "anger".So, the "tone" which screaming gives, is understood as something nice and artsy. I really enjoy it. I'm actually listening to some "Norma Jean - Bless the martyr and Kiss the Child" right now. {lyrics as I type:"Christ is not a fashion Fading away."} I enjoy this music very much. I think it's beautiful, and though it's not the type of music which can put you in a trance {like hillsongs style worship, or Techno, or electronica}, it does have the effect of being calming. It's always worked to make me feel better about my day. I suppose all music which one really enjoys can do this though. As far as "understanding" what they are saying, first I find this an interesting point people always bring up.I've never understood Gregorian chants. Well.. some of them, but not a lot. Does that imply anything about Gregorian chants? No, I don't think so. I can't understand a lot of music, especially if it's in another language. However, I have found that when you listen to a particular style for long enough, you become more attuned to discerning the lyrics, just as you become more aware of "what to expect" from the Music. With pop, for example, you are expecting that the Rhythm will undergo some fairly insignificant change by the time it reaches the Chorus. In Rock, you know that it will be a little more diverse and have a bridge. In Hardcore, you know that the change of Rhythms is going to produce a set pattern, and the drums are going to have the most influence on where the pattern goes next. You get better at understanding why it is music, and really appreciate the beauty, only if you've really honed your listening skills.Basically, I've been at it for longer, and thus, perhaps that's why I don't fully understand when people say that you can't understand what they are saying. I can usually understand what they are saying. For example, August Burns Red, which Cloakk mentioned; They are some of the easiest to hear and understand. While I can understand and appreciate somebody new to the Genre not being able to pick out the lyrics because of the screaming, I hope it is also clear to others that many Hardcore fans who listen to this type of music, are much better at hearing it. I'm not going to pretend that I can hear all of it without any difficulty, as that would be dishonest. However, when a line or two catch me, and I have the time, I go and look up the lyrics, and follow along with the song, so as to really grasp the meaning.Hardcore is typically the most meaningful music I have ever had the experience of discovering. The only music which can and will bring me to my knees, or bring a tear to my eye.
 

Jon-Marc

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I enjoy songs that praise God and that show worship of Him, but I see nothing wrong with songs that simply have a message of comfort, what God has done for us, about Jesus' death, burial and resurrection.
 

Tyrel

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I enjoy songs that praise God and that show worship of Him, but I see nothing wrong with songs that simply have a message of comfort, what God has done for us, about Jesus' death, burial and resurrection.
... actually, I don't even mind "fun" songs, where there is no deep meaning, the people playing are just having fun and getting people into it. A Christian band, one of my favorites, composed a really funny song, where the drummer was the vocalist, and he just kept screaming "I want my french fries, gimme my french fries, I want my french fries, and yah with ketchup, I want some Ketchup, oh yes some Ketchup, on my french fries, french frieeeeeeeesss!!" and so on and so forth. really, I enjoy the song. I find it really funny.I don't think there is any harm in having fun.
 

Mighty Bear

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We are told to glorify God in everything we do. 1 Corinthians 6:20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
We glorify God by keeping His commandments."If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever," (John 14:15-16)"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." (Ephesians 4:30)"Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body." (1 Corinthians 6:19-20)http://christiansite.multiply.com/journalhttp://eyeballdub.christianforums.com/
 

Cloakk

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We glorify God by keeping His commandments."If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever," (John 14:15-16)"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." (Ephesians 4:30)"Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body." (1 Corinthians 6:19-20)http://christiansite.multiply.com/journalhttp://eyeballdub.christianforums.com/
Er... what's the relevance of this post?By the way, Pariah. Sorry I haven't got back to you. I feel, that in some way, you have a decent point. Although, it's not against HxC music in itself, but against musics with an improper or, inaccurate view of life. I think, you make a good point. I'll admit I don't agree, with you, but not for lack of thought on the issue. Indeed, it wouldn't be fair if I didn't think about it! Anyways, thanks for sharing what you have. I'll be thinking about it more in the future.
 

Mighty Bear

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Er... what's the relevance of this post?By the way, Pariah. Sorry I haven't got back to you. I feel, that in some way, you have a decent point. Although, it's not against HxC music in itself, but against musics with an improper or, inaccurate view of life. I think, you make a good point. I'll admit I don't agree, with you, but not for lack of thought on the issue. Indeed, it wouldn't be fair if I didn't think about it! Anyways, thanks for sharing what you have. I'll be thinking about it more in the future.
If we sing praises to the Lord, are we the only onesdoing it, or do we do it in the inspiration of the Holy Spirit?"I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing."(John 15:5)
 

Tyrel

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If we sing praises to the Lord, are we the only onesdoing it, or do we do it in the inspiration of the Holy Spirit?"I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing."(John 15:5)
Hate to sound redundant.. but upon re-reading... what is the point of this post?
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Mighty Bear

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Hate to sound redundant.. but upon re-reading... what is the point of this post?
biggrin.gif

I think music is about being moved, and I think it's aboutbeing honest, about listening to the music you really like.We can not please God by singing Him praises or listeningto stuffs like that, He needs nothing from us except ourgenuine love and honesty.