Paul was a wolf in sheeps clothing

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M.B.

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Controversial... nonetheless fact admitted to by Paul (Saul) himself, backed up by scripture and events.

Matthew 7:15
Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
Code:
[Paul, describing himself]
circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee
Code:
Genesis 49:27
Benjamin is a ravenous wolf; In the morning he devours the prey, And in the evening he divides the spoil
Read the book of Acts. The original and early apostles were a very close, tight knit and cohesive group that held to the teachings of Christ....then came Saul who changed his own name to Paul -- meaning humble -- and they began arguing amongst themselves and taking sides against each other.
 

Deborah_

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Paul means 'little', not 'humble'.
And how do you know that Paul changed his name himself? It could have been a nickname that others called him and eventually stuck.

And does Jacob's prophecy mean that all Benjamites were to be 'wolves in sheep's clothing'?

And Paul held to the teachings of Christ - he tells us so in I Corinthians 15:1-8.

I don't think your analysis stands up to examination.
 

williemac

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Paul was simply describing his credentials during the time before the conversion on the road to Damascus. He went on to tell the Philippians that those former things he has counted as rubbish (dung), counting those things that were gain at one time, now as loss (Phil.3:7,8), claiming in the next verse that he let all of the former things go to be found in Christ.
The book of Acts tells of his exploits in persecuting the believers before this conversion. Then it tells of his long time spent learning the doctrines of the new covenant. Peter once warned of those who misinterpret Paul's writings as they do the REST of scripture, thus Peter referred to Paul's' writings as scripture. (2Pet.3:16). Furthermore, after Saul (Paul) was blinded, he was instructed by the Lord to see a man named Ananias, who at first resisted the meeting for fear. But in Acts.915, he was told by Jesus: " Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name's sake".
Seems to me he is suffering something right here in this thread. You would do well to reconsider your invalidation of Paul as you are opposing the validation he received by the Lord's own words, and by many other places in the bible.
 

M.B.

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Paul held to the teachings of Christ because Paul said so? Peter said Paul's writings are scripture?

Joel Osteen says Joel Osteen is a christian who happens to need 17,000 square-foot Houston mansion valued at $10.5 million...

Many atrocities have been committed by those who said "God told them to do it". Did God really tell them to do those things? The only way to find out is to compare their actions to the Law given by Christ....So, let's find out...

Peter [after befriending saul] said "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons."

And Paul Saul said: "For there is no respect of persons with God".

Yet Christ said: "Look at the birds of the air: They do not sow or reap or gather into barns--and yet your Heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?"

And Christ said: "If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."

And made Peter promise 3 times to "Feed His sheep".

I hold to the teachings of Christ, not Paul Saul and I don't think Peter ever had authority to determine what is and isn't scripture.

scripture: the sacred writings of Christianity.

If I'm incorrect, then so be it. But, if you're incorrect..........ruh roh. (but, i'm not incorrect on this)
 

katabole

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Paul was Christ's chosen instrument.

Acts 9:15 (KJV) But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he (Paul) is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Paul proclaimed the Gospel to the Gentiles, to the Kings and Queens of the ethnos and to the children of Israel. All of Paul's New Testament epistles are written to these three groups.

Peter did indeed say Paul's writings are Scripture because Christ gave Paul wisdom.

2 Pet 3:15 (KJV) And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

2 Pet 3:16 (KJV) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

You can cherry pick verses to back up your claim that Paul was a wolf in sheep's clothing if you wish. That line of reasoning does not hold when compared to the vast number of ancient historians and Biblical theologians who would vehemently disagree with you because they understand Paul preached the Gospel of Christ and that one of the reasons why Christianity spread so vastly in the first century is due to the writings of Paul.
 

M.B.

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You can't validate Paul Saul with what Paul Saul said.

Heck, David Berkowitz murdered a bunch of people because he said a dog told him to do it.

One can only validate Paul Saul by whether or not he held to the teachings of Christ.

Paul Saul set his own self up when he decided to be a teacher. As James said; "You know that we who teach will be judged more severely".

Can you recognize them by their fruits? Did Peter feed the sheep? Did his buddy Paul Saul help with that task? How are the sheep doing these days, or are wolves running the show?

Why did Christ explicitly warn the apostles about wolves in sheeps clothing? Don't you think He knew exactly what would happen? After all, He knew Peter would deny Him 3 times.

A question...

2,000 years ago Christ forgave and taught them because 'They know not what they do'. He told them that they would then be held accountable because they were taught. Do you believe that Christ somehow erred and didn't teach properly before He left and somehow needed Paul Saul to finish things up for Him?
 

michaelvpardo

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M.B. said:
Controversial... nonetheless fact admitted to by Paul (Saul) himself, backed up by scripture and events.

Matthew 7:15
Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
Code:
[Paul, describing himself]
circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee
Code:
Genesis 49:27
Benjamin is a ravenous wolf; In the morning he devours the prey, And in the evening he divides the spoil
Read the book of Acts. The original and early apostles were a very close, tight knit and cohesive group that held to the teachings of Christ....then came Saul who changed his own name to Paul -- meaning humble -- and they began arguing amongst themselves and taking sides against each other.
If you're suggesting that Paul wasn't commissioned and sent by God, then you're also suggesting that the largest part of the new testament is deception, including the gospel of grace itself. I would recommend that you avoid that on a Christian web site, though you might be welcome to make such statements with approval on a Muslim web site or some other cultic venue.
If Paul were "untrue" then why would the church at Jerusalem accept him and send him on his way to preach the gospel to the gentiles?
Also the notion that the apostles were a close knit group is not entirely true as evidenced by disputes between them which are recorded in scripture. Jesus held the disciples together prior to His resurrection and He brought them together again (after they had been scattered) and He had resurrected Himself. (see the incident in which the mother of James and John asked Jesus to allow her sons places of honor on the Lord's left and right in His kingdom and the resultant argument.)
Its true that Paul was from the tribe of Benjamin and Genesis 49:27, being prophetic scripture can also be assumed to be entirely true, yet this doesn't make the Apostle the satisfaction of such a prophecy and leads to unresolvable conflicts in interpretation. Our God is not a god of confusion, so you should always be able to reconcile scripture to itself. That is, scripture from one letter or book, to be "unbroken" or retain integrity, must remain in agreement with scripture from another letter or book. Interpreting a book or letter in complete isolation from the rest of scripture will lead to error and commonly to apostasy (because of misinterpretation.) But even comparing scripture to scripture, error is introduced when we create inferences which were not implied in the original (see the kind of nonsense presented by defenders of the pre-trib rapture doctrine, repeated aggressively in various threads.)
Strong deception is strong deception because the Lord allowed it for the purpose of division or the revealing of those who are approved as opposed to those who may be safely ignored. The bible tells us that even the false prophets were sent by God to test the hearts of His people, but this doesn't make Paul false; his life speaks for itself. False prophets generally are only concerned for themselves, their comforts, their pleasures, their desires, and typically wouldn't stand in the face of stoning, whipping, beating, and execution.
When I was young and hadn't yet understood and received the gospel, it upset me that the scriptures could often be understood in two different ways, but God gave it as a divider of the heart (a revealer of the way we think and feel) and the interpretation we give something reveals something of our spiritual nature (alive or dead, spiritual or carnal, mature or childish, rebellious or obedient, etc.)
Perhaps you might explain how identifying the Apostle Paul as "a wolf" edifies the church or is in any way helpful to the cause of Christ. If you are unable to do so, perhaps you should spend some time contemplating your motives for writing such things: Ask yourself who benefits from what you write and what is damaged by it. The scripture tells us that in the end times there will be men who kill Christians while believing they are doing so for God. Does God need anyone's help? Does anything that any of us do or say add anything to God? We may blaspheme the Lord (at our own peril), but even in this do we really subtract anything from God?
When the Lord wiped out all the life upon the surface of the earth by the flood, He could have simply wiped out the entire universe and started over again, but even that would make Him to be something less than God (He doesn't make mistakes and there is nothing that has ever happened that came as a surprise to Him.)
The Lord works within His own creation to accomplish those things for which He intended it, but everything we see and experience in this life is part of a testing of our hearts and a preparation of our minds for the choices that God has required us to make. The only choice that really matters is to believe the testimony of Jesus the Christ; either we do or we don't, either we're His or we're not. No one that chooses to believe Him will ever have reason (in eternity) to be ashamed of their choice (the judgment of true believers is one for the determination of eternal rewards, not for condemnation because of evil choices.) I realize that it was Paul who instructs us repeatedly to examine ourselves, but this admonition makes perfect sense in light of what scripture tells us about the deceptiveness of our own hearts and the inclination toward evil of our own imaginations. If self deception is basic to our nature, then we have to anchor our faith upon something external to us and the only thing in all creation that is proven true by time and circumstance is the word of God.
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:17​
 

M.B.

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This 'Gospel of Grace' you talk about. Can you please cite specific verses from Christ Himself to validate that theology?

Then, please explain why the book of Revelation and the included Judgements was written shortly after the death of Paul Saul with the admonishment that it cannot be changed.
 

M.B.

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M.B. said:
This 'Gospel of Grace' you talk about. Can you please cite specific verses from Christ Himself to validate that theology?

Then, please explain why the book of Revelation and the included Judgements was written shortly after the death of Paul Saul with the admonishment that it cannot be changed.
If you're certain of your opinions, it should only take a few minutes to answer those questions. Nonetheless, I noticed there were a number of folks viewing this topic for quite some time after I asked those questions but they left without answering.

Personally, I am not a Muslim. I am a devout Christian; about as Christian as they come. As a Christian I believe every single thing Christ said. Perhaps it would be better to call this a Peter Pan Paulian Saulian Gracian website instead of a Christian website. Then I would not have joined.

You may delete my account now. Thanks.
 

michaelvpardo

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M.B. said:
This 'Gospel of Grace' you talk about. Can you please cite specific verses from Christ Himself to validate that theology?

Then, please explain why the book of Revelation and the included Judgements was written shortly after the death of Paul Saul with the admonishment that it cannot be changed.
The "gospel of grace" hadn't been pronounced prior to the death of Christ, nor could it be since His death and resurrection are essential components of the gospel. However you'll find the gospel presented by Paul in an abbreviated form in chapter 53 of the book of Isaiah which came to Isaiah by the Spirit of prophecy who is also the Spirit of Christ.
I have to apologize for not explaining why the book of the revelation was written after Paul's death as I don't understand what this has to do with Paul's apostleship. Perhaps you can rephrase that request or tell me what the stumbling block is. To my knowledge, there is nothing contradictory between the teachings of Paul and what is written in the book of the Revelation, though there are popular doctrines which make them seem contradictory (because those doctrines are based upon error.)
My primary purpose here is to build up, not to tear down (though building sometimes requires repairs as prep work) so feel free to state your conceptual problems with the text of scripture and I'll feel free to attempt to help you clear them up.
 

M.B.

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Your answer is a non-answer. You cannot cite anything Christ said about any theology involving a 'Gospel of Grace' because He never taught that. Your 'Gospel of Grace' defies True Christianity because it was never offered by Christ. It is a made up fiction perpetrated by a wolf in sheep's clothing.

The book of Revelation has everything to do with debunking your 'Gospel of Grace' ideology because that book is Christ's Judgements that must occur. The fact that "All Judgement is Given to the Son" means that Paul Saul and Peter Pan never had the authority to declare Grace.

I have no conceptual problems with scripture. Your back-handed insult implying that I do when you remain unable to cite anything by Christ Himself to back up your own false ideologies is dishonest rhetoric in a wrapper of false nicety - similar to Paul Saul's 'Gospel of Grace'.

Also, I notice that this question has been ignored:

A question...


2,000 years ago Christ forgave and taught them because 'They know not what they do'. He told them that they would then be held accountable because they were taught. Do you believe that Christ somehow erred and didn't teach properly before He left and somehow needed Paul Saul to finish things up for Him?


So would you like to continue telling me that you'll help me with my conceptual problems with scripture? Or will you provide thoughtful, honest answers to these questions backed up by Christs own teachings? Or is there some other option you'd like...perhaps confer with others during a long period of silence before your next attempt to dissuade me?
 

michaelvpardo

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M.B. said:
Your answer is a non-answer. You cannot cite anything Christ said about any theology involving a 'Gospel of Grace' because He never taught that. Your 'Gospel of Grace' defies True Christianity because it was never offered by Christ. It is a made up fiction perpetrated by a wolf in sheep's clothing.

The book of Revelation has everything to do with debunking your 'Gospel of Grace' ideology because that book is Christ's Judgements that must occur. The fact that "All Judgement is Given to the Son" means that Paul Saul and Peter Pan never had the authority to declare Grace.

I have no conceptual problems with scripture. Your back-handed insult implying that I do when you remain unable to cite anything by Christ Himself to back up your own false ideologies is dishonest rhetoric in a wrapper of false nicety - similar to Paul Saul's 'Gospel of Grace'.

Also, I notice that this question has been ignored:

A question...


2,000 years ago Christ forgave and taught them because 'They know not what they do'. He told them that they would then be held accountable because they were taught. Do you believe that Christ somehow erred and didn't teach properly before He left and somehow needed Paul Saul to finish things up for Him?


So would you like to continue telling me that you'll help me with my conceptual problems with scripture? Or will you provide thoughtful, honest answers to these questions backed up by Christs own teachings? Or is there some other option you'd like...perhaps confer with others during a long period of silence before your next attempt to dissuade me?
Paul taught what Christ taught. Jesus said through the prophet Isaiah, 700 years before He inhabited the body that was prepared for Him:
5. But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed. 6. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. 7. He was oppressed and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so He opened not his mouth. 8. He was taken from prison and from judgment, and who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgressions of My people He was stricken. 9. And they made His grave with the wicked but with the rich at His death, because He had done no violence, nor was any deceit in His mouth.
10. Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand. 11. He shall see the travail of His soul, and be satisfied. by His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, for He shall bear their iniquities. 12. Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, and He shall divide the spoil with the strong, because He poured out His soul unto death, and He was numbered with the transgressors, and He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Here, I've made it very simple for you and underlined the parts of the passage which are the essentials of the gospel of grace. You'll notice that nothing in this passage mentions anything that God's people do for Him, only what He has done for us by His righteous servant, the Son of God, our Lord and Savior. Jesus didn't preach the gospel of grace, He preached the gospel of the kingdom, which is not the same thing. And if you think that you can be saved simply by following His teachings, then consider that He said that this was impossible for man:
25. When His disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, "Who then can be saved?''
26. But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.'' Matthew 29:25-26

Now, if I seem insulting to you, I apologize, but I'm unable to receive you as anything but an immature brother in the Lord, if that. The last two verses quoted here tend to be glossed over by the self righteous as they believe that they are capable of being or doing good. The same is true of other of Jesus' sayings such as:
"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! Matthew 7:11 (also found in Luke 11:13)
The self righteous read over that verse and their minds just kind of glaze over, believing that they are good in themselves and reading "If you then, being evil" simply disregard the verse as not pertinent to themselves, and so being self deceived, miss the point. These self righteous folks may be able to explain away these statements by Jesus by asserting that they aren't the object of them, but when they get to Jesus' statement, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.'' from Matthew 19:17 they become amnesiacs and are unable to remember what they've read or remember it in some distorted way. You'll notice that I've left out the last part of the verse to avoid confusion, but Jesus did answer the question saying, "But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." The problem with what He said to the man, and He knew this perfectly well, is that men are unable to keep the commandments, and according to the book of Deuteronomy, to fail in any one point of the law is enough to make you accursed (which is why we have Jesus saying what He did In Matthew 29:25-26 quoted previously.) He didn't lie to the man, because if it were possible for a man to keep the law, then he would have life by it, but the only man to ever keep the law perfectly (or who always did what was pleasing to the Father) was Jesus Himself, and we know if we know Him, that Jesus was more than just a man.
By the way, I never consult with anyone other than God before writing something dealing with the gospel or biblical doctrine.
Finally, the gospel of grace, as taught by Paul (and by Christ through the prophet Isaiah) in its simplest form is this: No one can save themselves, God is our only Savior. He accomplished salvation for us by visiting the earth in the person of His Son, Jesus Christ, and giving His life up on the cross to pay the price of our sin, so that anyone who believes in Him and that He has risen from the dead shall be saved. If you want the specific verses, any fool with a search engine and internet access can find them, but I'll be delighted to copy and paste them for you.
I'm curious, have you ever actually read the entire bible cover to cover, or do you just think that the words in red are the only ones which count. Abraham Lincoln loved the words of Christ so much that he cut the words in red out of the Bible to study and remember them by themselves, yet according to his own writings he didn't seem to consider himself a Christian.
 

michaelvpardo

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I forgot to mention that I am sorry if my responses are not fast enough for you, this is an on line forum, not a chat room, and I actually have a life which involves more than answering heretical views on a Christian forum. My wife was quite upset with me for spending an entire holiday on the computer (and all I wrote was three or four posts or something like that.) I try to be very careful that what I write is actually what I want to express from my thoughts and where doctrine is concerned I like to make sure that everything I state is supported by scripture. I'm not saying that this always makes me correct, but I trust the God that I know and the teaching that He gives me, and in the last 20 years I haven't been disappointed in anything that came from Him.
I haven't answered your question because I can't grasp what you mean. I see no contradictions between the teaching of Jesus and that of Paul, His servant. The fact that you do can only make your relationship to the Lord seem questionable at best. However, when I was young in the faith, I had my own doubts about Paul and what he wrote that were born out of ignorance (and yes, I'd considered the verses that you specifically quote about wolves, but as I pointed out, jumping to the conclusion that you came up with is not born out by logic, but actually rests on emotionalism, false piety, and self righteousness, all of which are not uncommon among the young (and a little too common among those who should be mature.)
Its a little funny, but you seem to have picked up a common response to posts that you don't like. Just because you don't understand an answer, doesn't make it a non-answer. Certainly a question which has no answer can't be answered specifically, but I like to imitate Christ's method of getting to the heart of things, because the questions asked by detractors are more often than not disingenuous. That is people often ask questions for which they believe they already have a correct answer, just for the sake of argument, to be divisive, or to show themselves more knowledgeable or more spiritual than their peers. I've done as much in an OP to draw the interest and involvement of others into a discussion, which is common practice here, but I've found few if any questions asked on the forums for which the author really desired an honest answer, and this inevitably leads to conflict.
 

rockytopva

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10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. - Acts 9

For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: - Romans 11:13
For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles - Galatians 2:8

The Apostle Paul was hand picked by Christ himself to be Apostle to the Gentiles.
 

M.B.

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tell you what.....let's agree to disagree and leave it all to the Son of Man - after all, it's His decision, His show and His Universe - and that will never change.

Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
please delete this account now. thank you.
 

mjrhealth

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I guess MB missed the whole point. Paul went from Saul, a man aproved of men and very learned, and who did not know Christ, to a man who discovered Jesus, who counted all He knew as worthless so He could know Jesus crucified, and in doing so became aproved by God, than hated and despised by men.
 

StanJ

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M.B. said:
Controversial... nonetheless fact admitted to by Paul (Saul) himself, backed up by scripture and events.

Matthew 7:15
Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
Code:
[Paul, describing himself]
circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee
Code:
Genesis 49:27
Benjamin is a ravenous wolf; In the morning he devours the prey, And in the evening he divides the spoil
Read the book of Acts. The original and early apostles were a very close, tight knit and cohesive group that held to the teachings of Christ....then came Saul who changed his own name to Paul -- meaning humble -- and they began arguing amongst themselves and taking sides against each other.
Paul admitted no such thing, and taking scripture OUT of context doesn't really help your own credibility here. It is well know that Saul was ALSO called Paul and that he used Saul mostly with the Jews, and Paul mostly with the Gentiles. The following article may shed some light on it for you, IF you are not bound by your own opinion.
http://graceandknowledge.faithweb.com/saul2paul.html
 
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M.B.

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M.B. said:
tell you what.....let's agree to disagree and leave it all to the Son of Man - after all, it's His decision, His show and His Universe - and that will never change.

Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
please delete this account now. thank you.
^^^^^ This....

so obviously there is no more discussion on this issue. unless, of course, you don't trust Christ. but then you wouldn't be Christians at all, right?

i disavow my membership here and for the third time I am requesting that my account on this forum be deleted.

as christians, will you honor that request?
 

tom55

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LOL....MB....You crack me up.

M.B. said:
^^^^^ This....

so obviously there is no more discussion on this issue. unless, of course, you don't trust Christ. but then you wouldn't be Christians at all, right?

i disavow my membership here and for the third time I am requesting that my account on this forum be deleted.

as christians, will you honor that request?
You crack me up MB....You don't need to get permission for your account to be deleted. Just stop logging in to your account and reading what people are writing silly girl.