A Study on the Book of James

FHII · Jan 31, 2016

Thats what its says. Ain't no twist at all. Do you really think the apostle is going to say faith is not of works then turn around and say do works? That would be contradictory.

Does it not say we are HIS workmanship? Then who is doing the work? Does this verse EVER say we must do good works (yes, other scripture say we should) or does it say we should walk in them? It never says do any work! It says walk in the "good work" Christ did in you. In fact, it says we are created in Christ Jesus unto goid works.

I'm sure you are already reseaechin good works, so let me know what you find.

Barrd · Jan 31, 2016

OzSpen said:
The Barrd,

This is an English translation of what Luther wrote about James:

It has been suggested by some interpreters of Luther that Luther's rather strange parody in describing James as a 'right strawy epistle' could be associated with his reaction to the praise given to his later opponent, Karlstadt, who had written a treatise defending the canonicity of James. Remember the 'wood, hay and stubble' of the NT? That seems to be the caricature that Luther could be drawing with those provocative words.

For a more in-depth look at this, you might like to read Timothy George's article, '“A Right Strawy Epistle”: Reformation Perspectives on James'.

I'm still not understanding your interpretation of 'a person is justified by works and not by faith alone' James 2:24 ESV) in the light of justification by faith alone (Rom 5:1). It sure sounds like a contradiction at first reading of those 2 verses. Is it or not?

Oz
Works consulted
Luther's Works 1972. American edition. St Louis: Concordia Publishing House.

Oz

I honestly do not know a better way to explain it.
It seems to me that, if one truly has the Spirit of God within them, then they are going to be moved by that Spirit.
They will have compassion, because the Spirit within them has compassion.
How can someone who has that spirit look at a need, and not long to fill it?

I do not see any contradiction between these verses. Yes, it is our faith that saves us. But what is faith?
It is much more than a pretty church word. Do we truly believe in Jesus Christ? Even the devils know that He is real...they know about His death and resurrection. And they tremble. Why is that? They know Him...they believe in Him...but they do not have faith in Him. Long ago, Satan decided that he would put his faith in himself...and it seems he led a third of God's angels to also have faith in him.
"Faith", then, must mean more than simply believing in Jesus Christ. It means following Him...doing the things He commands.
Faith is not faith unless and until we act on our faith.
Abraham was 75 years old when God first came to him. Think about that. For 75 years, he had lived in the same place, known the same people, had the same friends...even worshiped the same gods. But then God revealed Himself to him. And God had a command for him, and a promise:

Gen 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
Gen 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Abraham had faith in God. And so he got up, packed up his family, and left everything he had known for his 75 years of life, to go to this new place that he had never seen and knew nothing about. He acted on his faith...and aren't you glad he did! Because we have the gift of hindsight...we know that the child of promise...he in whom all families of the earth would be blessed...is our beloved Lord, Jesus Christ.

Abraham stands justified before God because of his faith. But let us understand...Abraham didn't just sit around his tent, chanting "I have faith. I have faith. I have faith." No. He got up off of his 75 year old behind...and he acted on his faith.

But I'm pretty sure you didn't need me to explain all of this to you, Oz.

The Barrd

Barrd · Jan 31, 2016

FHII said:
Thats what its says. Ain't no twist at all. Do you really think the apostle is going to say faith is not of works then turn around and say do works? That would be contradictory.

Does it not say we are HIS workmanship? Then who is doing the work? Does this verse EVER say we must do good works (yes, other scripture say we should) or does it say we should walk in them? It never says do any work! It says walk in the "good work" Christ did in you. In fact, it says we are created in Christ Jesus unto goid works.

I'm sure you are already reseaechin good works, so let me know what you find.

Where you and I disagree is in the idea that the Apostle ever said "do not do good works".
What he actually said is that we are justified by our faith, and not by our works, lest anyone should boast.
How people want to run from God!

OzSpen · Jan 31, 2016

The Barrd said:
Oz

I honestly do not know a better way to explain it.
It seems to me that, if one truly has the Spirit of God within them, then they are going to be moved by that Spirit.
They will have compassion, because the Spirit within them has compassion.
How can someone who has that spirit look at a need, and not long to fill it?

I do not see any contradiction between these verses. Yes, it is our faith that saves us. But what is faith?
It is much more than a pretty church word. Do we truly believe in Jesus Christ? Even the devils know that He is real...they know about His death and resurrection. And they tremble. Why is that? They know Him...they believe in Him...but they do not have faith in Him. Long ago, Satan decided that he would put his faith in himself...and it seems he led a third of God's angels to also have faith in him.
"Faith", then, must mean more than simply believing in Jesus Christ. It means following Him...doing the things He commands.
Faith is not faith unless and until we act on our faith.
Abraham was 75 years old when God first came to him. Think about that. For 75 years, he had lived in the same place, known the same people, had the same friends...even worshiped the same gods. But then God revealed Himself to him. And God had a command for him, and a promise:

Gen 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
Gen 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Abraham had faith in God. And so he got up, packed up his family, and left everything he had known for his 75 years of life, to go to this new place that he had never seen and knew nothing about. He acted on his faith...and aren't you glad he did! Because we have the gift of hindsight...we know that the child of promise...he in whom all families of the earth would be blessed...is our beloved Lord, Jesus Christ.

Abraham stands justified before God because of his faith. But let us understand...Abraham didn't just sit around his tent, chanting "I have faith. I have faith. I have faith." No. He got up off of his 75 year old behind...and he acted on his faith.

But I'm pretty sure you didn't need me to explain all of this to you, Oz.

The Barrd

The Barrd,

You have stated it well with your down home Alabama drawl. Here is my okka accented version (based on Scripture):

James asks, 'Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?' (James 2:21 ESV). Paul taught that 'Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”' (Gal 3:6 ESV). See also Rom 4:3 (ESV).

If we compare James 2 with Gal 3 and what was said about Abraham justified by faith and works, we see that they refer to 2 different events in Abraham's life. Paul refers to Gen 15 where Abraham was initially justified, when he believed God's promise in spite of how impossible the circumstances appeared. James refers to Gen 22 and God's announcement of what took place as a result of Abraham's act of faith, thus sealing Abraham's approval by God.

In James 2:23 (ESV), we read, 'The Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”'. Thus, by faith Abraham was justified. What were Abraham's works? He was ready to offer up Isaac (as demonstrated in Gen 22). It was not this preparedness to offer up Isaac that earned Abraham his justification before God. The works were the fruit or the outward evidence of faith.

That leads to the meaning of James' statement that 'a person is justified by works and not by faith alone' James 2:24 ESV). We cannot separate genuine faith from works, which would have to be good works. I can't imagine true faith being accompanied by bad works.

If there had been no works by Abraham, he would not have been justified because the absence of works would demonstrate that he had no genuine faith. Paul believed this theology also when he spoke of 'faith working through love' (Gal 5:6 ESV).

A faith that justifies before God is a faith that must be accompanied by Christian works, works of love, good works. Good works do not buy our eternal life; we are saved by grace alone through faith (Eph 2:8-9; Titus 3:4-7). Good works are for the purpose of glorifying God (Matt 5:16; 1 Peter 2:11-12). James 2:14-17 (ESV) validates how a genuine faith is demonstrated by works.

Therefore, there is no contradiction between Paul and James. Sadly, Martin Luther didn't seem to grasp this dimension that we demonstrate genuine faith through works and 'a person is justified by works and not by faith alone' (James 2:24 ESV) is the way James expresses such a relationship.

Oz

Barrd · Jan 31, 2016

OzSpen said:
The Barrd,

You have stated it well with your down home Alabama drawl. Here is my okka accented version (based on Scripture):

James asks, 'Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?' (James 2:21 ESV). Paul taught that 'Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”' (Gal 3:6 ESV). See also Rom 4:3 (ESV).

If we compare James 2 with Gal 3 and what was said about Abraham justified by faith and works, we see that they refer to 2 different events in Abraham's life. Paul refers to Gen 15 where Abraham was initially justified, when he believed God's promise in spite of how impossible the circumstances appeared. James refers to Gen 22 and God's announcement of what took place as a result of Abraham's act of faith, thus sealing Abraham's approval by God.

In James 2:23 (ESV), we read, 'The Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”'. Thus, by faith Abraham was justified. What were Abraham's works? He was ready to offer up Isaac (as demonstrated in Gen 22). It was not this preparedness to offer up Isaac that earned Abraham his justification before God. The works were the fruit or the outward evidence of faith.

That leads to the meaning of James' statement that 'a person is justified by works and not by faith alone' James 2:24 ESV). We cannot separate genuine faith from works, which would have to be good works. I can't imagine true faith being accompanied by bad works.

If there had been no works by Abraham, he would not have been justified because the absence of works would demonstrate that he had no genuine faith. Paul believed this theology also when he spoke of 'faith working through love' (Gal 5:6 ESV).

A faith that justifies before God is a faith that must be accompanied by Christian works, works of love, good works. Good works do not buy our eternal life; we are saved by grace alone through faith (Eph 2:8-9; Titus 3:4-7). Good works are for the purpose of glorifying God (Matt 5:16; 1 Peter 2:11-12). James 2:14-17 (ESV) validates how a genuine faith is demonstrated by works.

Therefore, there is no contradiction between Paul and James. Sadly, Martin Luther didn't seem to grasp this dimension that we demonstrate genuine faith through works and 'a person is justified by works and not by faith alone' (James 2:24 ESV) is the way James expresses such a relationship.

Oz

And no contradiction between Alabama's Southern Belle and the Kuddly Koala from Australia... :wub:

OzSpen · Jan 31, 2016

The Barrd said:
And no contradiction between Alabama's Southern Belle and the Kuddly Koala from Australia... :wub:

The Barrd,

Please remember that the cuddly koala is not a bear but a marsupial - a mammal with a pouch.

Koala courtesy Australian Koala Foundation

Oz

Barrd · Jan 31, 2016

I'll try to keep that in mind, Oz. I promise. -_-

Now, what the heck is a duck billed platypus? :unsure:

Ain't he a cutie? :wacko: Don't tell me God doesn't have a sense of humor!

What was He thinking? :unsure:

FHII · Jan 31, 2016

The Barrd said:
Where you and I disagree is in the idea that the Apostle ever said "do not do good works".
What he actually said is that we are justified by our faith, and not by our works, lest anyone should boast.
How people want to run from God!

I didn't say that. I said in other places he did say to do good works, but this particular verse is not one of them. Eph 2:10 is talking about the good work Jesus did.

I missed an important part which makes it even more clear: the verse starts with "for", which in context means "because". In other words, verse 10 explains why verse 9 is so.

So faith is not work, lest any should boast BECAUSE we are Christ's workmanship.

By the way, if you are insinuating that I run from God, hey... I read every word of every verse and every verse of every chapter and every chapter of the bible that is pertinent to whatever topic we are discussing. I don't run from nor cherry pick verses. I challenge you to prove I am running from God.

Barrd · Jan 31, 2016

FHII said:
I didn't say that. I said in other places he did say to do good works, but this particular verse is not one of them. Eph 2:10 is talking about the good work Jesus did.

I missed an important part which makes it even more clear: the verse starts with "for", which in context means "because". In other words, verse 10 explains why verse 9 is so.

So faith is not work, lest any should boast BECAUSE we are Christ's workmanship.

By the way, if you are insinuating that I run from God, hey... I read every word of every verse and every verse of every chapter and every chapter of the bible that is pertinent to whatever topic we are discussing. I don't run from nor cherry pick verses. I challenge you to prove I am running from God.

I honestly did not think you were serious...this has to be one of your "riddles".

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

For we are His workmanship
Doesn't need an explanation. We are the "crowning glory" of God's creation.

Created in Christ Jesus
Also self-explanatory

unto good works
gives us that which Christ Jesus expects of us
good works-for example:
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Do you understand, FHII?

which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
You mean, we should scatter them around on the floor and literally "walk in them"? Wouldn't that be a bit messy?
When Jesus says "walk in the light", what do you think He means? Only go for walks during the day? Turn the outside lights on? What?
How are we to be "the light of the world"? I'm sure He means a bit more than just getting a powerful flashlight and shining it around.
Do you think being "the salt of the earth" means making sure there is enough salt in the soup? I don't think so.
There is more at stake in the salt "losing its savor" than ruining the mashed potatoes...

But I'm sure you knew that, FHII.

FHII · Jan 31, 2016

Nope. Again the work it is talking about in these verses is the work Christ did. Thats grace through faith. No works required. We walk in grace.

The way you are reading comes down to "not of works... but we are created in Christ to do works." Nonsense.

I do believe in good works. Again these are works that have to do with God's work in various ways. There are verses that discuss this. Eph 2:9-10 are talking about Jesus's good works, not ours.

"Unto" does not mean "to do".

H. Richard · Feb 1, 2016

The Barrd said:
I honestly did not think you were serious...this has to be one of your "riddles".

unto good works
gives us that which Christ Jesus expects of us
good works-for example:
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Do you understand, FHII?

Do you understand Barrd? Who were His brethren? Weren't they the Jews? Remember the verses where Jesus said He only came to the lost sheep of Israel? (the Jews)

Do you remember where God promised Abraham that those that blessed has offspring (Jews) would be blessed and those that did not would be cursed? Here it is in the goat sheep judgment.

The Gentiles who bless the Jews during their tribulations (7 years) will go into the 1000 year reign of Jesus on this earth. Those who did not would be cast out.

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A Study on the Book of James

FHII

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Barrd

His Humble Servant

Barrd

His Humble Servant

OzSpen

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Barrd

His Humble Servant

OzSpen

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Barrd

His Humble Servant

FHII

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Barrd

His Humble Servant

FHII

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H. Richard

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