What is this thing called "sin"?

Barrd · Jan 25, 2016

OzSpen said:
Stan,

I think this is an unfair accusation. In my understanding, The Barrd does not accept your Pentecostal interpretation of the baptism of the Spirit with the physical evidence of speaking in tongues. There are millions of evangelical, non-Pentecostal believers around the world who do not accept that interpretation. Are you saying that they do not know the things and power of the Spirit? My understanding is that all Christian believers have the Holy Spirit living in them. That happens at conversion.

According to 1 Cor 3:16 (NLT), we have this teaching, 'Don't you realize that all of you together are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God lives in you?'

All believers have the Holy Spirit in them (as the people of God). The Barrd, in my understanding, is against your particular interpretation of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Oz

You are quite right, my friend.
I am totally against the Charismatic movement, for reasons I have discussed with Stan in another thread.

StanJ · Jan 25, 2016

OzSpen said:
Stan,

It is not my style or content to use language that is in any way comparable with what you said in using the language of 'ignore me again as is your habit when PROPERLY instructed'. If I have said anything like that, would you please direct me (with a link) to where I stated it and I'll apologise profusely to that person? Until you show me exactly where I said it, I will not believe I said it. It is not my style of language.

However, are you admitting that you said this as a person who considers that he is 'PROPERLY instructing' the Baard on this forum?

Oz

I really can't speak to your intent, but I have seen many of your replies that can get heated IMO. I can't point specifically to one but as you well know we were on many forums together.

Yes I indeed feel I have properly instructed her in this forum. A fact I know she will dispute.

StanJ · Jan 25, 2016

The Barrd said:
Nobody is saying that the Old Covenant has not been replaced by the New Covenant.

You are, as is anybody that advocates the written law is still in effect.

OzSpen · Jan 25, 2016

StanJ said:
I really can't speak to your intent, but I have seen many of your replies that can get heated IMO. I can't point specifically to one but as you well know we were on many forums together.

Yes I indeed feel I have properly instructed her in this forum. A fact I know she will dispute.

Stan, my brother in Christ,

I can make statements that are strong, but i don't think I've been 'heated' in my responses on this forum. If I am, it's time for you to point that out to me - not now without evidence - but at the time when it happens.

I do not think it is appropriate for you to blow your horn to say you have instructed her properly (your language). That is pride in action, in my view. Let our humility in Christ demonstrate the nature of our teaching.

I do not think on a Christian forum there is a place for bragging about one's teaching ability. Our place is to be careful exegetes, historians and cultural expositors and let the truth lie there.

Oz

OzSpen · Jan 25, 2016

StanJ said:
You are, as is anybody that advocates the written law is still in effect.

Stan,

So where do you place the first 11 chapters of Genesis and the Psalms? Are they applicable today?

So am I wasting my time preaching through the Book of Jeremiah in a 21st century evangelical congregation? Are there any lessons to be learned from Jeremiah that apply to believers today?

Oz

justaname · Jan 25, 2016

The Barrd said:
Not to mention that there wouldn't have been much left of the mountain...

Seriously, I see a huge difference between what has come down to us as "The Ten Commandments" and the rest of the "Law of Moses.

Exo 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
Deu 31:9 And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it unto the priests the sons of Levi, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and unto all the elders of Israel.

The Lord had spoken the Ten Commandments to the people before He wrote them in stone:

Deu 4:36 Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice, that he might instruct thee: and upon earth he shewed thee his great fire; and thou heardest his words out of the midst of the fire.
Deu 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

If the Mosaic law was part of the Ten Commandments, there would be a contradiction here, because God did add more to this law! But there was no contradiction, because God considered the Ten Commandments to be a separate Law. The Ten Commandments were spoken by God Himself, directly to the people.

Moses understood the difference.

Deu 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
Deu 4:14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.

I don't see how it could get much clearer than that...

Nor did God's attitude change..

2Ki 21:8 Neither will I make the feet of Israel move any more out of the land which I gave their fathers; only if they will observe to do according to all that I have commanded them, and according to all the law that my servant Moses commanded them.

Really, must He yell it in your ear?

Dan 9:11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

Daniel understood the difference.
You know, of course, that there are no curses in the Ten Commandments. The curses being spoken of are a part of the Law of Moses.

It was God Who commanded that His Law-The Ten Commandments-be placed in the Ark, while the rest should be set alongside of the Ark.

Exo 25:16 And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee.

Deu 31:24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
Deu 31:25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
Deu 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

You may crack jokes about it, but the fact is that God separated His Law from the Law of Moses.
The lesson is clear,

Notice the language you yourself use..."the rest of the Law of Moses". The Law refers to the entirety of the Law and is synonymous with the OC.

You quoted from Deuteronomy 5, yet you omitted this passage as part of your evidence...

But you, stand here by me, and I will tell you the whole commandment and the statutes and the rules that you shall teach them, that they may do them in the land that I am giving them to possess.' - Deuteronomy 5:31

10 are a part of the whole. They are not separate, they never were, nor will they ever be. You say there is an apparent contradiction, I say false. Those were the words written on the tablets and no more words were added to the tablets, yet the Law was given only in part on the tablets.

And what does Moses teach...

1 "Now this is the commandment-the statutes and the rules-that the LORD your God commanded me to teach you, that you may do them in the land to which you are going over, to possess it,
2 that you may fear the LORD your God, you and your son and your son's son, by keeping all his statutes and his commandments, which I command you, all the days of your life, and that your days may be long. - Deuteronomy 6:1-2

To keep all the commandments and statutes, not just the 10.

Now as for the placement of the Law in the side of the ark comment...the 10 are written in the book.

There is a curse for transgressing the Law including any of the 10, the penalty for sin is death. Daniel makes no distinction within the Law.

The lesson you gave is clear as mud.

If the 10 are so important and separate, why isn't the first and foremost command included?

Oh and here is a different translation of the Deut. 4 passage.

And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments, and he wrote them on two tablets of stone. - Deuteronomy 4:13

Do you believe God had 2 covenants with Israel?

heretoeternity · Jan 25, 2016

justaname said:
Notice the language you yourself use..."the rest of the Law of Moses". The Law refers to the entirety of the Law and is synonymous with the OC.

You quoted from Deuteronomy 5, yet you omitted this passage as part of your evidence...

But you, stand here by me, and I will tell you the whole commandment and the statutes and the rules that you shall teach them, that they may do them in the land that I am giving them to possess.' - Deuteronomy 5:31

10 are a part of the whole. They are not separate, they never were, nor will they ever be. You say there is an apparent contradiction, I say false. Those were the words written on the tablets and no more words were added to the tablets, yet the Law was given only in part on the tablets.

And what does Moses teach...

1 "Now this is the commandment-the statutes and the rules-that the LORD your God commanded me to teach you, that you may do them in the land to which you are going over, to possess it,
2 that you may fear the LORD your God, you and your son and your son's son, by keeping all his statutes and his commandments, which I command you, all the days of your life, and that your days may be long. - Deuteronomy 6:1-2

To keep all the commandments and statutes, not just the 10.

Now as for the placement of the Law in the side of the ark comment...the 10 are written in the book.

There is a curse for transgressing the Law including any of the 10, the penalty for sin is death. Daniel makes no distinction within the Law.

The lesson you gave is clear as mud.

If the 10 are so important and separate, why isn't the first and foremost command included?

Oh and here is a different translation of the Deut. 4 passage.

And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments, and he wrote them on two tablets of stone. - Deuteronomy 4:13

Do you believe God had 2 covenants with Israel?

From what you are saying, do you keep the Mosaic law, the 613 laws of Moses you are talking about here?
Do you keep the ten commandments?

justaname · Jan 25, 2016

Heretoeternity,

I am not held to Mosaic Law, the Old Covenant. I am a child of God in Christ. I am at liberty to love the Lord my God from a pure heart and a clear conscience not from an intention for gain. I have been made clean by the shed blood of Jesus Messiah and justified by His resurrection and my faith in such. I am born again to no longer live for myself striving to obtain righteousness through my actions rather now I am a slave of Messiah Jesus who is my righteousness. I am not an antinomian with liberty to sin, rather I am held to the Royal Law...to love. In such I am being sanctified ever growing closer to the day I will be as I am not now, for what I will be has not yet appeared.

StanJ · Jan 26, 2016

OzSpen said:
Stan, my brother in Christ,

I can make statements that are strong, but i don't think I've been 'heated' in my responses on this forum. If I am, it's time for you to point that out to me - not now without evidence - but at the time when it happens.

I do not think it is appropriate for you to blow your horn to say you have instructed her properly (your language). That is pride in action, in my view. Let our humility in Christ demonstrate the nature of our teaching.

I do not think on a Christian forum there is a place for bragging about one's teaching ability. Our place is to be careful exegetes, historians and cultural expositors and let the truth lie there.

Oz

Only when God prompts me Oz, otherwise I say nothing, and quite frankly to me, that is NOT an issue. You brought it up so I am addressing it for you.
Quite honestly sometimes they HAVE appeared heated, but nothing that IMO, was out of line.
I'm not bragging, just stating facts. Anyone who does not have 100% confidence in what they have and know in Christ, probably should not try to instruct others. It's not pride, it's fact and unless I am actually refuted by fact, stands.

StanJ · Jan 26, 2016

justaname said:
Do you believe God had 2 covenants with Israel?

God had one covenant with Abraham, which partly resulted IN Israel, and another with Israel. Neither was co-dependant.
We as believers, are a result of His first covenant becoming fulfilled, and we are also a result of His ending the second one.

heretoeternity · Jan 26, 2016

Heretoeternity,

I am not held to Mosaic Law, the Old Covenant. I am a child of God in Christ. I am at liberty to love the Lord my God from a pure heart and a clear conscience not from an intention for gain. I have been made clean by the shed blood of Jesus Messiah and justified by His resurrection and my faith in such. I am born again to no longer live for myself striving to obtain righteousness through my actions rather now I am a slave of Messiah Jesus who is my righteousness. I am not an antinomian with liberty to sin, rather I am held to the Royal Law...to love. In such I am being sanctified ever growing closer to the day I will be as I am not now, for what I will be has not yet appeared.

Are you saying you do not follow God's law, the ten commandments?

justaname · Jan 26, 2016

StanJ said:
God had one covenant with Abraham, which partly resulted IN Israel, and another with Israel. Neither was co-dependant.
We as believers, are a result of His first covenant becoming fulfilled, and we are also a result of His ending the second one.

Yes and God made a covenant with Noah that partly resulted in Israel. And I also acknowledge the Davidic covenant. Yet directly with Israel and these people there was a Suzerian Treaty style covenant where Israel bound themselves by oath in a covenant with God.

My question looks at the so called distinction of the 10 and wonders if there is a belief of a covenant of these and a different covenant also somehow. Thereby two covenants regarding the Law.

justaname · Jan 26, 2016

heretoeternity said:
Are you saying you do not follow God's law, the ten commandments?

I am stating I am not bound nor held to the Law, the 613 commandments which include the 10 commandments. Only the nation people of Israel bound themselves by oath to the Law. I am bound by faith to the person of Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God. It is not the letter of the Law I obey, rather I obey the Spirit behind the Law that surpasses the letter.

Barrd · Jan 26, 2016

Some people seem to think that Jesus abolished the Ten Commandments. If that were so, why did He spend so much time teaching people to keep them?

Commandment 1

Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.

Luk 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Commandment 2

Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Luk 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest….my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

Commandment 3

Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed….blasphemies:
Mat 15:20 These are the things which defile a man

Commandment 4

Mat 12:11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
Mat 12:12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Mar 6:2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue:

Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

Luk 6:5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Luk 6:9 Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it?

Luk 13:14 And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day.
Luk 13:15 The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering?
Luk 13:16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?
Luk 13:17 And when he had said these things, all his adversaries were ashamed

Luk 14:3 And Jesus answering spake unto the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath day?
…
Luk 14:6 And they could not answer him again to these things.

Joh 7:23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

Commandment 5

Mar 10:19 Thou knowest the commandments….Honour thy father and mother.

Mat 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother

Luk 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments….Honour thy father and thy mother.

Commandment 6

Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment

Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders….
Mat 15:20 These are the things which defile a man

Mar 10:19 Thou knowest the commandments…Do not kill

Luk 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments...Do not kill

Commandment 7

Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed….adulteries
Mat 15:20 These are the things which defile a man.

Mat 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed….adulteries, fornications...
Mat 15:20 These are the things which defile a man

Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said….Thou shalt not commit adultery….

Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed…adulteries, fornications….

Mar 10:11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
Mar 10:12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

Mar 10:19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery…

Luk 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

Luk 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery…

Joh 8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
….
Joh 8:11 ….And Jesus said unto her….go, and sin no more.

Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Commandment 8

Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed….thefts….
Mat 15:20 These are the things which defile a man

Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said….Thou shalt not steal….

Mat 21:13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

Mar 7:22 Thefts….
Mar 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Mar 10:19 Thou knowest the commandments….Do not steal, Defraud not….

Luk 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments….Do not steal….

Commandment 9

Mat 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
Mat 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed....false witness...
Mat 15:20 These are the things which defile a man

Mar 10:19 Thou knowest the commandments….Do not bear false witness, Defraud not….

Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour….and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Commandment 10

Mat 6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on.

Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts….
Mat 15:20 These are the things which defile a man:

Mar 7:22 ….covetousness….
Mar 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

I think we can safely say that Jesus certainly did not abolish the Ten Commandments.

tom55 · Jan 26, 2016

justaname said:
I am stating I am not bound nor held to the Law, the 613 commandments which include the 10 commandments. Only the nation people of Israel bound themselves by oath to the Law. I am bound by faith to the person of Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God. It is not the letter of the Law I obey, rather I obey the Spirit behind the Law that surpasses the letter.

I may be misunderstanding your statement of, "I am not bound nor held to the Law, the 613 commandments which include the 10 commandments."

I agree with you that Christians are not held to Jewish laws (what not to eat, circumcision etc.) but Christians are held to Gods laws of which the 10 Commandments are part of. Furthermore Jesus clearly reaffirmed this by saying, If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.....“‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself. (Matthew 19)

Maybe I am confused about what you are saying? If I am....I apologize.

Barrd · Jan 26, 2016

justaname said:
I am stating I am not bound nor held to the Law, the 613 commandments which include the 10 commandments. Only the nation people of Israel bound themselves by oath to the Law. I am bound by faith to the person of Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God. It is not the letter of the Law I obey, rather I obey the Spirit behind the Law that surpasses the letter.

I have shown where Jesus spoke of every one of the Ten Commandments.

Can you show me where He mentioned any of the other mitzvots?

Angelina · Jan 26, 2016

Okay guys, where is everyone at here? :huh: Please give a summary of your positions if you can. Thanks

FHII · Jan 26, 2016

Angelina said:
Okay guys, where is everyone at here? :huh: Please give a summary of your positions if you can. Thanks

My position is that I'm tired of shoveling snow!

Oh! You mean about this thread.

1. Law of God is the same as the law of Moses.
2. Ten commandments included.
3. When Jesus said,"keep my commandments" it specific to what James called the Royal Law. Not the law of Moses, in which the 10 commandments are included.
4. We are to follow the lae of God after the inward man, not the carnal man which is in the flesh.
5. We are not under the law of moses, which is the law of God, in which the 10 commandments are included.
6. There is a new covenant. The law is not included in it. It is a covenant of faith.
7. You can't mix the law with faith. Its one or the other.
8. I want soup. Jesus said ye have not cause ye ask not. So I'm asking! I've shoveled a lot of snow! I'm tired, loopy and I want soup!

Barrd · Jan 26, 2016

Angelina said:
Okay guys, where is everyone at here? :huh: Please give a summary of your positions if you can. Thanks

I am pretty much the opposite of everything FHII said.

Short version:
I believe that the Ten Commandments are the fundamental, basic laws upon which human society is built. They have not been "done away", nor, indeed, can they be.
I believe that the Ten Commandments, spoken by God to the people at Sinai, written by God's Own hand, written on tablets of stone rather than in a scroll, placed inside of the Ark of the Covenant, is different from the Law of Moses, spoken to the people by Moses, written by Moses in a scroll, placed beside the Ark...
I believe that, while we are under grace, we are still bound to obey God's law. Sin is transgression of the law.
Without law, there is no transgression...therefore, there is no need of grace, as there is no sin to forgive...

You are welcome, pretty Lady

Barrd · Jan 26, 2016

StanJ said:
Only when God prompts me Oz, otherwise I say nothing, and quite frankly to me, that is NOT an issue. You brought it up so I am addressing it for you.
Quite honestly sometimes they HAVE appeared heated, but nothing that IMO, was out of line.
I'm not bragging, just stating facts. Anyone who does not have 100% confidence in what they have and know in Christ, probably should not try to instruct others. It's not pride, it's fact and unless I am actually refuted by fact, stands.

In your mind, Stan.

What I have and know in Christ, I am sure of.
I did not come into these forums looking for an instructor, nor did I come here to instruct anyone. My purpose, as I stated in my profile when I joined, was to discuss my faith with other Christians, and to learn a bit about how other Christians viewed their faith.

I have rejected your offer to "properly instruct" me, Stan. I'm sure you think you are qualified...but it is that very arrogance in you that assures me that you are not.

Thank you anyway....but no thanks.

What is this thing called "sin"?

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