BE SUBJECT TO THE AUTHORITIES

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heretoeternity

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Romans 13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities...to go against them is to go against God...
Hmmm..this seems a bit confusing...I find it hard to believe that God supports regimes and governments that support and promote homosexuality/sodomy, abortions, and filth of all kinds, as well as mass murder of people, and every form of treachery imagineable. These forms of governments we have seen in the past, and seem to be increasing as time goes on...
This passage also indicates it is wrong to oppose them at risk of judgement...
Yet John the Baptist opposed Herrod vehemently does that mean he disobeyed God?
I am interested in your thoughts out there...
 

lforrest

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I read this as a warning, that there is no divine provision for rebellion. Those who rebel against their government are subject to the risk of reprisal. The judgement spoken of in this chapter is from the world, and not from God.
 

heretoeternity

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Interesting interpretation, seems to fit...what is confusing is all authority is "ordained" by God to deal with evil doers...what happens when the authorities are the evil doer? Are we expected to support them? This cannot be the meaning of the chapter...also Peter comments on this in 1st Peter 2, he seems to support Romans 13?
 

lforrest

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I don't see the connection. But I also think there may be something to this:

Galatians 5:22-23 "22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

While law by the context appears to be referring to the commandments, I see this as more of an authoritative declaration. God does not recognize any law that opposes the work of his Spirit.

Sure some laws are evil, but few are in direct opposition of his Spirit. Some examples I can think of are those laws for persecuting Christians, God does not recognize those laws.
 

jaybird

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i dont think our Lord likes bad leaders. there are lots of examples, here is one:

Isaiah 10:1-3

10 Woe to those who make unjust laws,
to those who issue oppressive decrees,
2 to deprive the poor of their rights
and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people,
making widows their prey
and robbing the fatherless.
3 What will you do on the day of reckoning,
when disaster comes from afar?
To whom will you run for help?
Where will you leave your riches?

as for what paul said, maybe our Lord had a plan that including not interfering in romes rule. but your right, its a bit confusing
 

iakov

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heretoeternity said:
Romans 13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities...to go against them is to go against God...
Hmmm..this seems a bit confusing...I find it hard to believe that God supports regimes and governments that support and promote homosexuality/sodomy, abortions, and filth of all kinds, as well as mass murder of people, and every form of treachery imagineable. These forms of governments we have seen in the past, and seem to be increasing as time goes on...
This passage also indicates it is wrong to oppose them at risk of judgement...
Yet John the Baptist opposed Herrod vehemently does that mean he disobeyed God?
I am interested in your thoughts out there...
When I was commissioned in the army, I took an oath to obey "all lawful orders." We had no responsibility to obey any illegal order. Christians have no responsibility to obey any law or order that violates God's will. In fact, a Christians, we have a duty before God to refuse to obey or participate in any activity prescribed by such a law. WE also have a constitutional right to refuse to do so but that is a very distant second from God's will.

Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. said, "How does one determine whether a law is just or unjust? A just law is a man-made code that squares with the moral law or the law of God. An unjust law is a code that is out of harmony with the moral law. To put it in the terms of St. Thomas Aquinas: An unjust law is a human law that is not rooted in eternal law and natural law. Any law that uplifts human personality is just. Any law that degrades human personality is unjust." (Letter from Birmingham Jail)

As for the horrible government that we have in the USA, it is the government that we the people insisted on having, the government we the people voted for, and the government we the people deserve.

When it gets bad enough, perhaps, like Israel under the judges when they were apostate and everything was going from bad to worse: if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land. (2Ch 7:14RSV)

No repentance, no humility, no turning from wickedness, no healing.
(Sign over the table of the Lord at the wedding feast of the Lamb in God's Diner)

But don't worry. If things are not bad enough already, just hide and watch, they'll get much worse.

iakov the fool



[SIZE=9pt]You have chosen to subject yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. No warrantee is declared or implied. Individual mileage may vary. Enjoy the rest of your day. [/SIZE]
 

heretoeternity

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Seems to be a rather catch 22 situation...if the authorities say to pastors or businesses they cannot discriminate against homosexuals and perform marriages for them or make wedding cakes for them etc, and they refuse, based on their Christian beliefs, they are going against the civil authority are they not? There are many more examples available, but this is gives one the idea of how confusing this chapter appears.
 

mjrhealth

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Seems to be a rather catch 22 situation...if the authorities say to pastors or businesses they cannot discriminate against homosexuals and perform marriages for them or make wedding cakes for them etc, and they refuse, based on their Christian beliefs, they are going against the civil authority are they not? There are many more examples available, but this is gives one the idea of how confusing this chapter appears.
NAd teh pharises accused Jesus of being a sinner because,

Mat 9:10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
Mat 9:11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
Mat 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

hard one isnt it.
 

r4hnsn

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Being subject to the authorities encompasses the rule that each authority has itself a higher authority, God being the highest. Therefore if our local authority or government requires something God opposes, it is God we obey.

Harsh governments are given to idolatrous and unruly peoples, that is we get the government we deserve. Actually better than we deserve for God is merciful. The National anthem of New Zealand is "God defend N.Z",and we were founded on christian foundations. Yet today sports holds the highest interest and knowing God the lowest. It is no wonder to me that our country is economically teetering and we are gradually becoming slaves to overseas masters.

Those who reject God, get Satan.

heretoeternity said:
Romans 13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities...to go against them is to go against God...
Hmmm..this seems a bit confusing...I find it hard to believe that God supports regimes and governments that support and promote homosexuality/sodomy, abortions, and filth of all kinds, as well as mass murder of people, and every form of treachery imagineable. These forms of governments we have seen in the past, and seem to be increasing as time goes on...
This passage also indicates it is wrong to oppose them at risk of judgement...
Yet John the Baptist opposed Herrod vehemently does that mean he disobeyed God?
I am interested in your thoughts out there...
Not sure its correct to say John opposed Herod vehemently? adamantly perhaps, and probably respectfully or he wouldve lost his head alot earlier.
 

michaelvpardo

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heretoeternity said:
Romans 13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities...to go against them is to go against God...
Hmmm..this seems a bit confusing...I find it hard to believe that God supports regimes and governments that support and promote homosexuality/sodomy, abortions, and filth of all kinds, as well as mass murder of people, and every form of treachery imagineable. These forms of governments we have seen in the past, and seem to be increasing as time goes on...
This passage also indicates it is wrong to oppose them at risk of judgement...
Yet John the Baptist opposed Herrod vehemently does that mean he disobeyed God?
I am interested in your thoughts out there...
Paul had a sound understanding of God's sovereignty in the world. Nothing happens that He hasn't seen coming and nothing happens which He hasn't allowed to happen. In all things God's purpose is accomplished and as Paul also said in the book of Romans, And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. Romans 8:28

As an example consider that Samson was a judge of Israel, a Nazirite from birth, and under the Law of Moses. Chapter 14 of the book of Judges tells us that Samson made what could be called an evil and rebellious choice, but then also tells us that this was a part of God's plan: 1. Now Samson went down to Timnah, and saw a woman in Timnah of the daughters of the Philistines. 2. So he went up and told his father and mother, saying, "I have seen a woman in Timnah of the daughters of the Philistines; now therefore, get her for me as a wife.'' 3. Then his father and mother said to him, "Is there no woman among the daughters of your brethren, or among all my people, that you must go and get a wife from the uncircumcised Philistines?'' And Samson said to his father, "Get her for me, for she pleases me well.'' 4. But his father and mother did not know that it was of the Lord that He was seeking an occasion to move against the Philistines. For at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel. Judges 14:1-4
Even in the occasion of Samson's capture, blinding, and death, we find that the Lord was using Samson to accomplish Samson's greatest victory over the Philistine lords: Then Samson said, "Let me die with the Philistines!'' And he pushed with all his might, and the temple fell on the lords and all the people who were in it. So the dead that he killed at his death were more than he had killed in his life. Judges 16:30
In all these things the Lord was accomplishing His promises to Israel through Samson's life: 3. And the Angel of the Lord appeared to the woman and said to her, "Indeed now, you are barren and have borne no children, but you shall conceive and bear a son. 4. "Now therefore, please be careful not to drink wine or similar drink, and not to eat any unclean thing. 5. "For behold, you shall conceive and bear a son. And no razor shall come upon his head, for the child shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb; and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.'' Judges 13:3-5
Now, you might say that things didn't go so well for Samson as God's Nazirite, but the Lord gave us 4 chapters of the Old Testament scripture telling Samson's story as well as the commendation for his faith that we find in Hebrews 11:32, that serve as an eternal testament to Samson's service and the Lord's grace in his life. As long as God's word exists, Samson's story exists, and God's word is eternal.
The scripture also tells us that God uses temporal powers to judge His people as He did repeatedly with Israel under the Law of Moses. Scripture calls Satan the ruler of this world, yet Satan remains responsible for the abuse of the power and authority given to him and will be judged accordingly. If the whole world is under the sway of the evil one, then it seems a bit uninformed to believe in "good" ruling powers, but the authorities, including Satan's authority, were given to establish rule and order in the world, over which God has always been sovereignly in control.
John tells us in his gospel that Jesus, during his trials and condemnation had this to say to the Roman governor Pilate: Jesus answered, "You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.'' John 19:11
Now, you might at first glance think Jesus was referring to the chief priest or to Judas as "the one who delivered Me to you," but at the last supper Jesus said, 7. "Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8. "And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9. "of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10. "of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11. "of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. John 16:7-11
So at the crucifixion of our Lord the ruler of this world is assigned the ultimate responsibility for the condemnation of Jesus, because it was through "the son of perdition" and the children of the devil that Jesus was both condemned and executed as an innocent man.
Now, as far as John the Baptist is concerned, he was sent before the Lord to make a way ready for Him. John preached repentance from sin, not rebellion against authority, and his problem with Herod was with Herod's sin, not specifically with his authority. To be sure, the bible teaches that the wickedness of leaders increases wickedness, so those in authority are always held up to higher standards because they are examples to those under their authority, and who will hold them accountable if it isn't God's prophets?
 

iakov

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heretoeternity said:
Romans 13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities...to go against them is to go against God...
Hmmm..this seems a bit confusing...I find it hard to believe that God supports regimes and governments that support and promote homosexuality/sodomy, abortions, and filth of all kinds, as well as mass murder of people, and every form of treachery imagineable. These forms of governments we have seen in the past, and seem to be increasing as time goes on...
This passage also indicates it is wrong to oppose them at risk of judgement...
Yet John the Baptist opposed Herrod vehemently does that mean he disobeyed God?
I am interested in your thoughts out there...
Being the authority which God has established does not mean that God supports the actions of those authorities. Quite often, God gives us what (or who) we insist on having. For example, when Israel demanded a king, God told Samuel that they were not rejecting him (Samuel) but, rather Him (GOD.)
In democratic/republican type governments, we get to vote for the person the ruling oligarchy allows us to vote for. They were picked by the behind the scenes people who are really in charge to promote THEIR agenda, not God's.
But sine we insist on having fallible human beings as our kings instead of God, God allows us to have them. It's up to us to learn from the messes we make of our societies and the world by picking these "leaders" to rule over us instead of God.

Russia picked Stalin.
Germany picked Hitler.
China picked Mao.
Cambodia picked Pol Pot.
Cuba picked Fidel Castro.
Argentina picked Juan Peron.
The USA picked Obama and the congress.
 

michaelvpardo

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iakov said:
Being the authority which God has established does not mean that God supports the actions of those authorities. Quite often, God gives us what (or who) we insist on having. For example, when Israel demanded a king, God told Samuel that they were not
Russia picked Stalin.
Germany picked Hitler.
China picked Mao.
Cambodia picked Pol Pot.
Cuba picked Fidel Castro.
Argentina picked Juan Peron.
The USA picked Obama and the congress.
I wouldn't disagree with what you said, and certainly there will be no righteous government until the Lord returns to restore the Kingdom under the throne of David, but even though this world honors the strong and aggressive over the humble and wise, the scripture tells us that the Lord directs the hearts of kings as He pleases. As an example:
And they kept the Feast of Unleavened Bread seven days with joy; for the Lord made them joyful, and turned the heart of the king of Assyria toward them, to strengthen their hands in the work of the house of God, the God of Israel. Ezra 6:22
Even in the telling of the deliverance of Israel from the power of pharaoh, we see that in the end it was the Lord that hardened pharaoh's heart against Moses and His word, that He might show Himself almighty in the complete overthrow of pharaoh's power.
12. But the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the Lord had spoken to Moses.
13. Then the Lord said to Moses, "Rise early in the morning and stand before Pharaoh, and say to him, `Thus says the Lord God of the Hebrews: "Let My people go, that they may serve Me,
14. "for at this time I will send all My plagues to your very heart, and on your servants and on your people, that you may know that there is none like Me in all the earth.
15. "Now if I had stretched out My hand and struck you and your people with pestilence, then you would have been cut off from the earth.
16. "But indeed for this purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth. Exodus 9:12-16
Why does the Lord allow the rebellion against Him to go on until the power of His Holy people is gone? Again to glorify Himself in victory over His adversaries and to show that He alone is our savior. Even so, come Lord Jesus, come. Amen.