Does the Church still possess miraculous gifts today?

Wormwood · Apr 17, 2016

KingJ said:
Lets say your child needs healing. Would God give you the gift or another to come heal him? Even if you desire the gift immensely / probably more then the guy coming to pray over your child....

I think God answers prayer and heals in that way. The "gift" of healing is another thing altogether. I dont God gives this gift just for a particular scenario where someone is petitioning for a sick child. The "gift" of healing was a sign that was prevalent among Apostles and other such early witnessed to validate the Gospel. For other cases, God simply responds to prayer (and still does today) (cf. James 5).

There is no gift to teach and administrate (post # 75 lists the 9 gifts).

“Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.” (Romans 12:6–8, ESV)

Paul uses the word "charismata" here for the following list which includes service, teaching, exhortation, generosity, leading (administration) and acts of mercy. This is the exact same word he uses in 1 Cor. 12 to describe the "gifts" of healing, tongues, etc. I don't think Paul makes such distinctions between "sign" gifts and other gifts. They are all gifts of the Spirit and some just happen to be more supernatural in nature. Paul is not exhaustive in his letters (Romans, 1 Corinthians, Ephesians, etc.), he just lists some of the gifts by way of example.

Sorry for the repetitive posts...I see Oz answered some of this now that I look through the responses.

KingJ · Apr 18, 2016

Wormwood said:
1. I think God answers prayer and heals in that way.
2. The "gift" of healing is another thing altogether. I dont God gives this gift just for a particular scenario where someone is petitioning for a sick child. The "gift" of healing was a sign that was prevalent among Apostles and other such early witnessed to validate the Gospel. For other cases, God simply responds to prayer (and still does today) (cf. James 5).

1. Agreed. As long as we have His ear John 9:31.

2. I see the gift and the manner in which it is given as two different issues. We still have the gift of healing today, but it is not needed in the fashion that God delivered it through the early apostles. Though as I posted earlier many cessationists agree that it can still happen in certain areas under certain conditions. This is not putting God in a box, rather just grasping that vanity / tempting God / partiality by Him are real factors that affect His delivery method. Hence my argument with the West is due to hospitals, it is impossible to want healing by non miraculous means and not be guilty of tempting God.

Wormwood · Apr 18, 2016

Here is a paragraph from a cessationist I highly admire. Again, though I would not classify myself as a strict cessationist, I agree with the general principles here.

First, the purpose of miracles as such would seem to rule out modern-day miracles. Hebrews 2:3–4 (NIV) suggests that miracles are part of a package of three things that usually occur together. These are redemptive events, or acts of God which save his people (“such a great salvation”). These are accompanied by revelation, or words of God to promise and explain the redemptive events (“announced by the Lord”). Revelation is accompanied by miracles, or signs from God to confirm the revelation (“confirmed to us … by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit”). This passage itself declares that the purpose of miracles is to confirm the accompanying revelation (see GRu, 232ff.). This can be seen also in Mark 2:10; John 10:38; 20:30–31; Acts 2:22; 4:16; 8:6; 1 Cor 14:22; 2 Cor 12:12. We must also notice that Heb 2:3–4 includes “gifts of the Holy Spirit” in the category of confirming miracles.
If these three things are interconnected—redemptive events, explanatory revelation, and confirming miracles—then we should expect miracles today only if God is working new redemptive events and giving new revelation to explain them.

Jack Cottrell, The Faith Once for All: Bible Doctrine for Today (Joplin, MO: College Press Pub., 2002), 297–298.

KingJ · Apr 18, 2016

Wormwood said:
Here is a paragraph from a cessationist I highly admire. Again, though I would not classify myself as a strict cessationist, I agree with the general principles here.

I like that pragraph, I will look him up.

KingJ · Apr 18, 2016

OzSpen said:
Yes, I am Spencer. That's where the Spen of OzSpen comes from.

I have forwarded the link to your articles to some friends. They are really epic. Good Job Spence.

Jun2u · Apr 18, 2016

Wormwood said:
I think God answers prayer and heals in that way. The "gift" of healing is another thing altogether. I dont God gives this gift just for a particular scenario where someone is petitioning for a sick child. The "gift" of healing was a sign that was prevalent among Apostles and other such early witnessed to validate the Gospel. For other cases, God simply responds to prayer (and still does today) (cf. James 5).

James 5:13-15 reads:

13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

If I am physically “sick” I will not call for the elders of the church rather I will call for a doctor! The word sick in Greek is “astheneo” which can be used to refer to any kind of spiritual or physical illness. On the other hand, the word sick in verse 15 is the Greek word “Kamno” which mean 'wearied' in Heb 12:3 and 'faint' in Rev 2:3 and as a whole mean “spiritual fatigues.”

There are those who are diagnosed with serious injury in an accident, prayed for and get well, yet there are also those who are prayed for and still die.

Verse 15 is really speaking about a “sin-sicked-soul” person who has been prayed for, and if he have committed sins they shall be forgiven him; and the Lord shall raise him up. This description is not akin to a person who is physically sick.

To God Be The Glory

Wormwood · Apr 19, 2016

Junu2,

No one is saying someone shouldn't call a doctor. The illness referred to in James is likely to be considered in conjunction with sin, but not necessarily so. Your Greek is a bit off. Kamnonta in conjunction with astheneo does likely mean physical illness. Every soul is "sin-sick." The point here is that someone is astheneo. They are sick/ill/weak and thus are confined to their beds. The point here is that prayer will lift the person off their bed so they can function again.

The overall point James is making is that the community of faith should be looking out for each other. They should not dismiss or ignore those who are hurting or are absent from their fellowship. Rather they should be reaching out to those who are stuck in their homes due to illness or those who are not gathering with them because they are wandering from the faith, recognizing that God is moving powerfully among them as they walk in faith.

Jun2u · Apr 19, 2016

Wormwood,

As always, you are very eloquent in describing details, however I don't think you get the gist of what James 5 is really saying. Assuming you are correct, why would a sick person summon for the elders of the church instead of for a doctor, and why is the prayer of faith SAVE the sick person?

I believe verse 15 is describing a person who is “spiritually sick”. The context will not permit any other interpretation. Note how meticulously God framed and worded verse 15 as language of salvation.

Perhaps you might understand by reading Luke 5:31…

And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.

Here the sick are those who are spiritually sick.

To God Be The Glory

OzSpen · Apr 19, 2016

Jun2u said:
Wormwood,

As always, you are very eloquent in describing details, however I don't think you get the gist of what James 5 is really saying. Assuming you are correct, why would a sick person summon for the elders of the church instead of for a doctor, and why is the prayer of faith SAVE the sick person?

I believe verse 15 is describing a person who is “spiritually sick”. The context will not permit any other interpretation. Note how meticulously God framed and worded verse 15 as language of salvation.

Perhaps you might understand by reading Luke 5:31…

And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.

Here the sick are those who are spiritually sick.

To God Be The Glory

I do wish you would refer to some commentators who would give you an understanding of the Greek language of James 5:15 where it does not refer to the 'spiritually sick'.

James 5:15 (NIV) states, 'And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven'.

'Will save' is from the verb sozo, which is often used in the NT to refer to physical healing. We see this in examples such as Matt 9:21-22 (ESV) and Mark 6:56 (ESV), where it does not refer to future salvation of the soul.

'Who is sick' is ton kamnota, which is different from the word used in James 5:14 and the verse 15 verb means 'to be weary, fatigued' (cf. Heb 12;3).

Oz

StanJ · Apr 19, 2016

I think what's being Illustrated here in James 5, is not much different than what is being Illustrated Mark 2:1-12. Very often sin and sickness go hand in hand. Call it psychosomatic or whatever you want to but God knows and knowing He affects healing in either the physical or the metaphysical or both.

Wormwood · Apr 20, 2016

Assuming you are correct, why would a sick person summon for the elders of the church instead of for a doctor, and why is the prayer of faith SAVE the sick person?

I agree with what Stan and Oz have written above. The focus is on physical illness which supposes that sin is a possible root cause for the physical malady. See also 1 Cor. 11:29-30. Thus, James is saying that "if" a person has sinned they will be forgiven. However, James also clearly believes in the power of prayer to potentially heal a person regardless of whether or not their illness is the result of sin. Perhaps we should have more faith on such matters as well! Some suggest that the anointing of oil is an encouragement to combine both medicine and prayer in the care of the sick. In the first century, oil was often used for medicinal purposes. In any event, I think we should be calling for the elders of our church to come and pray for those who are sick among us. As leaders, they should be godly men committed to prayer who are examples in this area.

The early Christians had the faith that their prayers were heard and valued by God just as Elijah's were which gave them great fervency, commitment and power in their prayers. We could certainly use more of that. We have not because we ask not and when we ask we either ask amiss or ask with weak faith. Certainly we should call medical professionals for those who are sick among us, but we should also regain the confidence, and commitment to prayer that is willing to plead to God and wrestle mightily on behalf of those who are hurting among us because God hears. As EM Bounds once wrote, "Only God can move mountains. But prayer moves God." May we begin to believe that again, seek the will of God above all things and call to him day and night until our petitions are answered. "When the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?"

Jun2u · Apr 21, 2016

Wormwood,

You can agree with anyone you wish but that does not mean you have truth. Consensus does not make a thing right, however; I'm glad Stan gave the scripture reference of Mark 2:1-12 because that gave me a chance to study the scriptures further.

The illustrations of the miracles Jesus performed in Mark Chapters 1, 2, and 3 and elsewhere in Scripture is not only to show Jesus is God as per Mark 2:7, but also teaches the condition (spiritual illness) of man prior to receiving the miracle of salvation.

Most folks cannot comprehend the significance of James 5 because they have been taught by Christian circles that James is speaking of someone who is physically ill, yet if we read the contents of the verses in question they cannot be speaking of someone who is physical ill Perhaps it is my understanding of the English language that is deficient but I don't think so.

The context of James 5:14-15 is found in verse 13. There, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, James asks, “Is any among you afflicted? The word afflicted is associated/related with being spiritually ill in the Bible. If James wanted to indicate physical illness, why didn't he use the word “sick” as in verse 14 and 15 in the first place instead of using the word afflicted? The key word is, “let him pray”. Why would he be told to pray if he is only physically ill? Unless he is petitioning the Lord to ease the excruciating pain he is experiencing and that he might get well soon.

What has prayer and anointing someone with oil in the name of the Lord have to do with anyone who is physically ill? Oil is a sign for Holy Kiss, Washing of the feet, and Holy Spirit.

James 5 must be read in light of Luke 5:31 which is self explanatory and elsewhere where the Bible speaks of healing spiritually sin-sick-souls which we all were at one point before becoming saved.

To God Be The Glory

StanJ · Apr 21, 2016

The context in James 5 that we are discussing is about physical and metaphysical healing. Read verse 15 and you'll notice that it deals with both the physical and the spiritual.
And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven.

When Jesus healed he also dealt with both aspects of healing. It's not a formula, it's a matter of faith.

Jun2u · Apr 21, 2016

I agree with you and that is exactly what Luke 5:31-32 has conveyed. This verse has a double meaning same as what you have alluded to in James 5:15. It can be read literally or metaphorically. Ultimately, God has in view the spiritual meaning, otherwise what is the point of the Great Commission? Jesus did not commission the believers to go into all the world and preach the Gospel so that people may be healed of their physical illness, rather to heal their sin-sicked-soul. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

All the miracles Jesus performed we read about are a picture or portrait of the spiritual condition of mankind. Scriptures tell us we are dead. Spiritually dead, that is, and sold to sin. This condition is akin to spiritual illness and this is what we have to be healed from. Praise be to God He accomplished this at the cross.

To God Be The Glory

Wormwood · Apr 21, 2016

Jun2u,

I dont know of anyone who sees this passage in James 5 as metaphorical and referring only to spiritual sin-sickness. It seems so clearly evident that it is referring to a bed-ridden person that I dont know what else to say on the subject. Why call the elders to anoint and pray for someone who is sinning? Why say, "and if he has sinned..." if James is only referring to a condition of sin? Why not say, "and because he has sinned..."? It just seems like a simple reading of the text makes the meaning apparent and I see no need to do word-study gymnastics in search of alternate metaphorical meanings.

StanJ · Apr 21, 2016

Jun2u said:
I agree with you and that is exactly what Luke 5:31-32 has conveyed. This verse has a double meaning same as what you have alluded to in James 5:15. It can be read literally or metaphorically. Ultimately, God has in view the spiritual meaning, otherwise what is the point of the Great Commission? Jesus did not commission the believers to go into all the world and preach the Gospel so that people may be healed of their physical illness, rather to heal their sin-sicked-soul. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

All the miracles Jesus performed we read about are a picture or portrait of the spiritual condition of mankind. Scriptures tell us we are dead. Spiritually dead, that is, and sold to sin. This condition is akin to spiritual illness and this is what we have to be healed from. Praise be to God He accomplished this at the cross.

If you agree with me then why are you contradicting me? I didn't say it could be read two ways. It is only written one way and that's literally. That it applies to both the body and the spirit as far as healing is concerned is the issue.

Barrd · Apr 21, 2016

I know that when my little grand daughter was born with no wall between the chambers of her tiny heart, we were blessed to have the surgeon that operated on her.

I will never forget what he told me and the other grandma, the night before her surgery was scheduled.

"I never go into surgery without first praying that God should guide my hands. In fact, I pray all during the surgery."

That baby is now eighteen years old, and working part time at our local McDonald's....

Was this a "miracle healing"? We think so....

Jun2u · Apr 22, 2016

Barrd

I've already touched on this matter about people who are prayed for and get healed from their physical illness, and those who are prayed for and still die.

According to your story, note how the surgeon prayed for God to guide his hands that the surgery may go well. I perceive that if the surgeon was a believer, he would instead have petitioned God that the baby be healed/saved and to use him as the vehicle to repair whatever damage has occurred in the baby's heart.

Through the grace and mercy of God I'm happy to learn your granddaughter is now eighteen.

A “miracle healing”? I doubt it. You belong to a church who believe the Bible is the Word of God, plus whatever revelations the congregation is receiving, which of course is contrary to Revelation 22:18.

To God Be The Glory

Jun2u · Apr 22, 2016

If you agree with me then why are you contradicting me? I didn't say it could be read two ways. It is only written one way and that's literally. That it applies to both the body and the spirit as far as healing is concerned is the issue.

I was not agreeing with your understanding of James 5, I was merely agreeing that James 5 can be read either way literal or spiritual. I also said, ultimately God has in view the spiritual meaning, and then explained my reasons why.

And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven.

What has forgiveness of sins to do with petitioning God to heal someone's physical illness? We pray and plead to God to heal/save and to forgive someone's sins because he is spiritually ill and NOT because he is physically ill.

When Jesus healed he also dealt with both aspects of healing. It's not a formula, it's a matter of faith.

In that case, we can rule out the story the Barrd enfolded here because the baby did not understand the matter of faith. I realize Barrd's post came after you posted.

It is only written one way and that's literally. That it applies to both the body and the spirit as far as healing is concerned is the issue.

O Stan...Stan, is this what you have learned after years of studying the Bible that you cannot get the bigger picture? Did you not read that when a believer dies in his soul/spirit essence he goes to be with the Lord Jesus (2Co 5:8) confirming that he is healed/saved in his soul/spirit essence evidenced by his body returning back to the dust? Do you know why his body goes back to the dust? Because it has not been healed/saved yet until Jesus raises him up on the last day. This is the concept many non-OSAS do not understand. I apologize, I know this is the wrong thread for this however, it needed to be said.

To God Be The Glory

Jun2u · Apr 22, 2016

Wormwood said:
Jun2u,

I dont know of anyone who sees this passage in James 5 as metaphorical and referring only to spiritual sin-sickness. It seems so clearly evident that it is referring to a bed-ridden person that I dont know what else to say on the subject. Why call the elders to anoint and pray for someone who is sinning? Why say, "and if he has sinned..." if James is only referring to a condition of sin? Why not say, "and because he has sinned..."? It just seems like a simple reading of the text makes the meaning apparent and I see no need to do word-study gymnastics in search of alternate metaphorical meanings.

You did not see Mark 16:17-18 as metaphorical either while we discussed the “new tongue”. I said the “new tongues” were synonym for the Word of God, and you said the “new tongues” are set forth in 1Corinthians Chapters 12; 13; and 14. We never got anywhere because the discussion stopped at this point.

I'm back again with Mark 16:17-18 to hopefully tie together James 5 with Mark 16, as I know the Bible is one cohesive whole and everything in it is interrelated.

Mark 16:17-18 reads:

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

There are five signs set forth in Mark 16: 17-18 and I would like to point out these signs are to follow or manifest to all those who are believers.

You say you don't know of anyone who sees James 5 as metaphorical and referring not to spiritual sin-sickness, I say then you've never really met a born again Christian, and you've never really entertained angels unaware.

The Bible is a very complex Book and NOT like a simple reading of the text as you claim. If James 5 is truly referring of someone who is physically ill and bed-ridden as you say and then prayed upon he will be healed correct?

Well let me ask you a question and this is the 64 million dollar question. D-o y-o-u k-n-o-w o-f a-n-y-o-n-e w-h-o g-o-e-s a-b-o-u-t t-h-e h-o-s-p-i-t-a-l b-e-d-s a-n-d l-a-y h-i-s h-a-n-d-s o-n t-h-e s-i-c-k, a-n-d t-h-e-y r-e-c-o-v-e-r? (emphasis added).

Remember, these signs will follow those that believe!!!

I don't think there is such a person, do you?

Do you see now that James 5 cannot be speaking of physical illness rather it is pointing to spiritual decease?

To God Be The Glory

Does the Church still possess miraculous gifts today?

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