Daniel`s 70 Weeks.

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Phoneman777

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ATP said:
(1) Lets examine some prophetic passages and see if there are gaps there.

Jesus, when speaking of fulfilment of prophecy actually does show us that there can be gaps in these passages and they can even show up in the middle of sentences;

Luke 4:17 “And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. 20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.”

Notice the end of verse 19. Now compare that to the original passage of Isaiah 61;

1 “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;”

Notice that Jesus stopped in the middle of a sentence. The little word “and” comprises a gap of at least two thousand years. The day of vengeance of our God is a reference to the Tribulation period, which will occur immediately before Jesus’ return to set up His millennial kingdom on earth. This hasn’t happened to date, and is a yet future event.

This phenomenon is not limited to Isaiah 61, but can be demonstrated in other passages of Scripture.

(2) Zechariah chapter 11 as a prime example of a prophetic passage which skips through several different prophetic time periods in one chapter. Verses 1-2 appear to be referring to the Psalm 83 war, an End Times war.

1 Open thy doors, O Lebanon, that the fire may devour thy cedars. 2 Howl, fir tree; for the cedar is fallen; because the mighty are spoiled: howl, O ye oaks of Bashan; for the forest of the vintage is come down.

Verse 3 appears to refer to another war, possibly at another time. Usually the word “Jordan” in Scripture refers to the river, but this passage may actually be a reference to the modern nation. If this is the case it could be a reference to the Psalm 83 war, but I personally think it goes ever farther in the future to Armageddon itself:

3 There is a voice of the howling of the shepherds; for their glory is spoiled: a voice of the roaring of young lions; for the pride of Jordan is spoiled.

Verses 4-6 appear to refer to the time Israel was scattered among the nations. A skip back by several thousand years. While it could be a reference to the Tribulation, the fact that the Lord says “I will not deliver them” would seem to indicate a skip back to the scattering of Israel among the nations, shortly after Isaiah’s time:

4 “Thus saith the LORD my God; Feed the flock of the slaughter; 5 Whose possessors slay them, and hold themselves not guilty: and they that sell them say, Blessed be the LORD; for I am rich: and their own shepherds pity them not. 6 For I will no more pity the inhabitants of the land, saith the LORD: but, lo, I will deliver the men every one into his neighbour’s hand, and into the hand of his king: and they shall smite the land, and out of their hand I will not deliver them”.

In verses 7-10 the prophet appears to be taking on the identity of the Antichrist! The three shepherds he, cut-off in one month, appear to represent the three kings the Antichrist destroys in Daniel 7:8, and the breaking of the covenant in verse 10 appears to refer to the time when the Antichrist will break his covenant with Israel, in Daniel 9:27. While it could possibly still be connected to the scattering of Israel, yet God does not break His covenants. This makes me think of another person.

7 And I will feed the flock of slaughter, even you, O poor of the flock. And I took unto me two staves; the one I called Beauty, and the other I called Bands; and I fed the flock. 8 Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me. 9 Then said I, I will not feed you: that that dieth, let it die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of another. 10 And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.

Then in verses 12-13 we have a beloved prophecy about Jesus and his betrayal by Judas, a prophecy that skips back some two thousand years from the previous verses.

12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. 13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

In Verse 14 the prophet goes back even farther in time to the split between Israel and Judah which occurred long before Isaiah was born, unless it is prophetic of another split in Israel in the future, which I doubt. I would think that it is more likely a reference to the fact that many Israelites did not join up with the Jews, but went to other parts of the world, like Pakistan and Afghanistan, and converted to Islam.

14 Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.

Then in verses 15-17 the prophet once again goes forward in time to concentrate on the Antichrist. This time he focuses on a wound the Antichrist will receive, where he loses the use of one arm, and his right eye is blinded. This appears to be the result of the fatal wound he receives in Revelation 13:3-14. Evidently, when the Antichrist is “resurrected” he will be crippled from that time on.

15 And the LORD said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd. 16 For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces. 17 Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

Here are the related passages from Revelation 13.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live

So, this chapter has some 5-7 jumps backward and forward in time! My point is that it really is impossible to understand prophetic passages without the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The human mind can’t follow the skips and turns, and u-turns, that many of these passages take, not without help anyway.

(3) This gap in time is also seen in Zechariah 9:9 and 9:10. Verse 9 has Messiah entering Jerusalem on a Donkey and verse 10 has Messiah ruling over the nations. The time gap is known as Prophetic Compression. Prophetic compression is also demonstrated in Isaiah 9:6 and 9:7. Messiah is born a child in verse 6 and is ruling on David’s throne over the earth in verse 7.
ATP, the 70 Weeks is a "numerically specific time prophecy" where a stated specific numeric length of duration of the prophecy is given, in this case "70 Weeks". I'm still waiting for you to find just one single instance in all of Scripture where God said a prophetic event would last for a specific numeric length of time, whose duration wound up exceeding the stated specific numeric length of time due to a "gap" having been inserted. Surely, there must be one other instance where God inserted a gap into a "numerically specific time prophecy", right? Gotta be in there somewhere... :popcorn:
 

ATP

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Phoneman777 said:
Perhaps you don't understand what I mean by a "numerically specific time prophecy". A "numerically specific time prophecy" is a prophecy in Scripture where God used specific numeric values to describe the length of a prophetic event from start to finish. For example, the prophecy of the famine in Elijah's day was said by God to be specifically 3 1/2 years long, "3 1/2" being the numeric value denoting the length of the famine.

Now that you are clear as to what I'm talking about, I am still waiting for you or anyone else to demonstrate from Scripture at least ONE SINGLE INSTANCE where a "numerically specific time prophecy" was given, but the duration of which exceeded the numerically specific allotment of time assigned by God to that prophetic event due to a "gap" having been inserted into that prophecy. :popcorn:
Straw man and more excuses..The Jewish remnant will not be saved and then continue in sin Phone. They will believe on His name at the end of the 70th week. That is why they will be saved.

Zech 8:23 NIV This is what the Lord Almighty says: “In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’ ”

Rom 11:25-31 NIV I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” 28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you.
 

Phoneman777

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ATP said:
Straw man and more excuses..The Jewish remnant will not be saved and then continue in sin Phone. They will believe on His name at the end of the 70th week. That is why they will be saved.

Zech 8:23 NIV This is what the Lord Almighty says: “In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’ ”

Rom 11:25-31 NIV I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” 28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you.
Straw man? Seriously? I call out your inconsistent exegesis which attempts to insert a "gap" into a numerically specific time prophecy - the 70 Weeks - by presenting to you the unwelcomed fact that no other numerically specific time prophecy in all the Bible is found to have a "gap" inserted by anyone at any time, and the best you can muster is "straw man"? I've got the Biblical evidence on my side, brother - it's up to you to find an example of what you are attempting to do to the 70 Weeks has already been done to other numerically specific time prophecies. It's called a "Biblical precedent" which so far you have failed to demonstrate, and no wonder, because God is an expert in Math and when He says a prophecy is 40 days and nights of deluge, or 40 years of wandering deserts, or 7 years of plenty/7 years of want, or 70 Weeks from Artaxerxes' commandment, He doesn't employ the "Common Core" style math that you and other followers of Jesuit Futurism utilize.
 

Marilyn C

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Marilyn C said:
Hi Phoneman777,

I would like to show how the 70 weeks did not expire in Jesus` day.

1. Prophecy of the Messiah Prince to come after 483 years, (69 x 7).

`Know therefore & understand that from the going forth of the command to restore & rebuild Jerusalem UNTIL MESSIAH THE PRINCE, there shall be 7 weeks & 62 weeks;...(Dan. 9: 25)

Clear details there of Messiah the Prince coming after 69 weeks. very specific.


2. Another Prophecy with more detail.

`Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your King is coming to you; He is just & having salvation, lowly & riding on a donkey, a colt, the foal of a donkey.` (Zech. 9: 9)

So we read that Israel`s King will come to Jerusalem riding on a colt, the foal of a donkey. very specific.



3. The fulfilment of the prophecies.

`Now when they drew near to Jerusalem,& came to Bethphage, at the Mount of Olives, then Jesus sent two disciples, saying to them, "Go into the village opposite you, & immediately you will find a donkey tied, & a colt with her. Loose them & bring them to me........All this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, "Tell the daughter of Zion, Behold your King is coming to you, lowly & sitting on a donkey, a colt, the foal of a donkey......

And a great multitude spread garments on the road; others cut down branches from the trees & spread them on the road. Then the multitudes who went before & those who followed cried out saying, " hosanna to the son of David! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! Hosanna in the highest!" (Matt. 21: 1 - 9)

Thus we realise that this event was prophesied by Daniel as to the exact timing, (69 Weeks) & prophesied by Zechariah as to where & in what manner this would come about. Jesus rode triumphantly like a commander of an army, (Prince - commander) into Jerusalem to the acclaim of the people, exactly as God said would happen.

Thus we see that Palm Sunday, (as it is called now) is just before Christ`s death. So there was no possibility of that time period being the full 70 Weeks.

Marilyn.
Hi Phoneman777,

I think this is another post of mine you have missed. Look forward to your comments.

Marilyn.
 

Phoneman777

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Marilyn C said:
Hi Phoneman777,

I think this is another post of mine you have missed. Look forward to your comments.

Marilyn.
Sorry again, I missed this one too, Sister Marilyn. Ok, "Messiah" means "anointed One", right?
When was Jesus anointed "Messiah the Prince"?
Acts 10:37-38 KJV clearly marks Jesus' baptism as the point in time when God "anointed" Him Messiah and He began to fulfill the OT prophecies as the anointed Messiah. Counting from 457 B.C. brings us to 27 A.D., the year of Jesus' baptism, which was also the only year that Tiberius, Herod, and Pilate simultaneously reigned.

His carpenter tools left behind, the "Anointed One" took up the work of the Divine Ophthalmologist (opening blind eyes), the Divine Gynecologist (healing issues of blood), the Divine Dermatologist (healing lepers), the Divine Orthopedist (healing the lame), Divine Ear, Nose, and Throat Specialist, etc, as well as the Divine Resurrector.
 

ATP

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Phoneman777 said:
Straw man? Seriously? I call out your inconsistent exegesis which attempts to insert a "gap" into a numerically specific time prophecy - the 70 Weeks - by presenting to you the unwelcomed fact that no other numerically specific time prophecy in all the Bible is found to have a "gap" inserted by anyone at any time, and the best you can muster is "straw man"? I've got the Biblical evidence on my side, brother - it's up to you to find an example of what you are attempting to do to the 70 Weeks has already been done to other numerically specific time prophecies. It's called a "Biblical precedent" which so far you have failed to demonstrate, and no wonder, because God is an expert in Math and when He says a prophecy is 40 days and nights of deluge, or 40 years of wandering deserts, or 7 years of plenty/7 years of want, or 70 Weeks from Artaxerxes' commandment, He doesn't employ the "Common Core" style math that you and other followers of Jesuit Futurism utilize.
Rom 11 proves your silly doctrine as false. Sorry man.
 

Phoneman777

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ATP said:
Rom 11 proves your silly doctrine as false. Sorry man.
I just think the fact that no other numerically specific time prophecy in all of Scripture contains the type of "gap" that you wish to insert into the 70 Weeks speaks volumes to the idea that there shouldn't be a gap in the 70 Weeks either.

The difference between Protestant Historicism and Jesuit Futurism is that while Protestant Historicism is an interpretation that can only be dismissed on the basis of dislike alone, Jesuit Futurism can be completely annihilated Biblically for the inconsistent ball of confusion that it is, ATP.
 

ATP

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Phoneman777 said:
I just think the fact that no other numerically specific time prophecy in all of Scripture contains the type of "gap" that you wish to insert into the 70 Weeks speaks volumes to the idea that there shouldn't be a gap in the 70 Weeks either.

The difference between Protestant Historicism and Jesuit Futurism is that while Protestant Historicism is an interpretation that can only be dismissed on the basis of dislike alone, Jesuit Futurism can be completely annihilated Biblically for the inconsistent ball of confusion that it is, ATP.
You can't do it can you. You can't explain Rom 11:25-31. Give it up Phone.
 

Phoneman777

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ATP said:
You can't do it can you. You can't explain Rom 11:25-31. Give it up Phone.
ATP, the beauty of Protestant Historicism is that it doesn't require the use of "magic" rubber bands to make the 70 Weeks - a prophecy that God specifically said would only be 490 years in length - stretch all the way down to the end of time. You are following Jesuit Futurism and as I've stated before, I don't understand why a Protestant like yourself has any business putting trust into an eschatological interpretation from an organization that after 1500 years has yet to establish a correct position regarding how a person is saved, which is by grace through faith, not by works.
 

keras

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It isn't any kind of 'magic' or manipulation that gives us the 2000 year gap between the 69th 'week' and the 70th.
It is the simple historical fact of nearly that time having past since Jesus departed. Bodily , but not spiritually. He continues to work here, as He prophesied in Luke 13:32
The last 'week' will happen in the last seven years before Jesus Returns, all as stated in the many time periods of Daniel 12 and Revelation.

You views are false and do not fit the facts of history or the Bible.
And as for harping on about others being fooled by the Jesuits, that is plain libelous.
 

Phoneman777

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keras said:
It isn't any kind of 'magic' or manipulation that gives us the 2000 year gap between the 69th 'week' and the 70th.
It is the simple historical fact of nearly that time having past since Jesus departed. Bodily , but not spiritually. He continues to work here, as He prophesied in Luke 13:32
The last 'week' will happen in the last seven years before Jesus Returns, all as stated in the many time periods of Daniel 12 and Revelation.

You views are false and do not fit the facts of history or the Bible.
And as for harping on about others being fooled by the Jesuits, that is plain libelous.
A brief review of history:
  1. The Protestant Reformers were men who broke away from Catholicism in the early 16th century and founded Bible based Protestant churches.
  2. The two main views held unanimously by all Protestants were salvation is by grace through faith and the Papacy is the Antichrist.
  3. The ensuing mass exodus of Catholics prompted the Papacy to convene the record 18 year "Council of Trent", where a "counter-Reformation" was devised. During this time, a military order known as the Society of Jesus - the Jesuit Order - was commissioned by the Pope with founder Ignatius Loyola as the first "General of the Jesuits" aka "the Black Pope".
  4. This Order was given the task of coming up with an alternative view of prophecy which was so devastating the Catholic church - the view which I expound here. In case you missed it, they were ordered to search the Bible for what they claimed to be truth - that they the Papacy couldn't be the Antichrist - and not for truth as revealed by God.
  5. Jesuit Luiz Alcazar concocted "Jesuit Preterism" which says Antichrist came in the first century (Nero, etc.).
  6. Jesuit Francisco Ribera concocted "Jesuit Futurism" where he inserted a "gap" into the 70 Weeks prophecy and said that Antichrist will come at the end of time during the "last seven years of tribulation" and sit in "the temple of God" which will be rebuilt in Jerusalem and he will make a "peace treaty between the Arabs and Jews which he will break halfway through which will usher in Armaggedon." Does Jesuit Futurism sound familiar? It should b/c it is EXACTLY what you Jesuit Futurists preach!
  7. The Reformers destroyed and buried these false ideas with Biblical truth and these ideas stayed buried until the 19th century, when almost 13 centuries of Papal persecution of the saints ended and foolish Protestant men beginning with Dr. Samuel Maitland (Librarian to the Archbishop of Cantebury), Edward Irving, John Nelson Darby, Cyrus Scofield, Hal Lindsey, etc. forgot who the Antichrist was and resurrected Jesuit ideas and began preaching and teaching them as "Biblical" doctrine. It's simply a matter of undeniable history.
 

Marilyn C

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Phoneman777 said:
Sorry again, I missed this one too, Sister Marilyn. Ok, "Messiah" means "anointed One", right?
When was Jesus anointed "Messiah the Prince"?
Acts 10:37-38 KJV clearly marks Jesus' baptism as the point in time when God "anointed" Him Messiah and He began to fulfill the OT prophecies as the anointed Messiah. Counting from 457 B.C. brings us to 27 A.D., the year of Jesus' baptism, which was also the only year that Tiberius, Herod, and Pilate simultaneously reigned.

His carpenter tools left behind, the "Anointed One" took up the work of the Divine Ophthalmologist (opening blind eyes), the Divine Gynecologist (healing issues of blood), the Divine Dermatologist (healing lepers), the Divine Orthopedist (healing the lame), Divine Ear, Nose, and Throat Specialist, etc, as well as the Divine Resurrector.
Hi @Phoneman777,

I believe Jesus was anointed Messiah, by the Holy Spirit however He was not recognised as Messiah THE PRINCE at that time. That is a big difference there, bro.

The triumphal entry is about Jesus APPEARING AS A COMMANDER.

Prince – Heb. word `nagid,` meaning a commander, captain, chief.

Someone doing teaching, performing miracles, casting out demons, or raising the dead, etc does not appear as a `commander,` but as a teacher, a prophet. This is exactly what the people thought Jesus was.

However when He comes riding on the back of an animal, (colt of a donkey as prophesied) with shouts of acclamations into the city of Jerusalem, then people knew that He was presenting Himself as their commander. They thus assumed He was going to command them as an army & get rid of the Roman rule.

As Jesus drew near to Jerusalem He wept over the city.

“If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for peace! But how they are hidden from your eyes.” (Luke 19: 42)

Israel did not understand Christ`s mission - to bring `peace,` reconciliation back to God. For this He was to die. But Israel only thought in terms of getting rid of the Romans.

That is the importance of the `Palm Sunday` event of Christ appearing as Israel`s commander in Chief. They should have bowed their proud hearts & acknowledge Him as their Lord and Saviour.

This then brings the 69 weeks up to Palm Sunday. Therefore no time for the complete fulfilment of the 70 weeks.

Marilyn.
 

Phoneman777

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Marilyn C said:
Hi @Phoneman777,

I believe Jesus was anointed Messiah, by the Holy Spirit however He was not recognised as Messiah THE PRINCE at that time. That is a big difference there, bro.

The triumphal entry is about Jesus APPEARING AS A COMMANDER.

Prince – Heb. word `nagid,` meaning a commander, captain, chief.

Someone doing teaching, performing miracles, casting out demons, or raising the dead, etc does not appear as a `commander,` but as a teacher, a prophet. This is exactly what the people thought Jesus was.

However when He comes riding on the back of an animal, (colt of a donkey as prophesied) with shouts of acclamations into the city of Jerusalem, then people knew that He was presenting Himself as their commander. They thus assumed He was going to command them as an army & get rid of the Roman rule.

As Jesus drew near to Jerusalem He wept over the city.

“If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for peace! But how they are hidden from your eyes.” (Luke 19: 42)

Israel did not understand Christ`s mission - to bring `peace,` reconciliation back to God. For this He was to die. But Israel only thought in terms of getting rid of the Romans.

That is the importance of the `Palm Sunday` event of Christ appearing as Israel`s commander in Chief. They should have bowed their proud hearts & acknowledge Him as their Lord and Saviour.

This then brings the 69 weeks up to Palm Sunday. Therefore no time for the complete fulfilment of the 70 weeks.

Marilyn.
You have presumed that by majority vote of the Jews the point at which Jesus became Messiah was determined. Do you really prefer the vote of the people, and not the point in which Jesus began to fulfill the OT prophecies as Messiah, the first of which was His anointing in the Jordan, as that deciding factor? Surely, you recall that before sunset His first two disciples were still calling Him "rabbi" but right after the dawn of the next morning they were shouting to everyone that they'd found "Messiah", proving that during the night He'd opened to them the prophecies of Daniel.

If your timetable is correct, the time at which He became "Messiah" until the time they cried "Crucify Him, crucify Him!!!" was only a few days. How could Jesus accomplish all that God had prophesied that the Messiah would accomplish in just that short period of time? Thank you for sharing with me your views on this subject and I hope you will consider mine, Marilyn.
 

keras

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Phoneman, what is NOT history yet is the exact 1260 day, 42 month, 3.5 year period X 2 = 7 years being fulfilled.
Jesus' Ministry on earth was only about 3 years. Some say there was about 3 years until Stephen was killed, there is no proof of this.

What is given to us in Revelation by Jesus, for His servants to understand, is those time periods and Daniel 12 also says they are for the last days.
So whoever believes this truth are correct, we await the fulfilment of all that is prophesied for the last days of this age.
 

Marilyn C

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Phoneman777 said:
You have presumed that by majority vote of the Jews the point at which Jesus became Messiah was determined. Do you really prefer the vote of the people, and not the point in which Jesus began to fulfill the OT prophecies as Messiah, the first of which was His anointing in the Jordan, as that deciding factor? Surely, you recall that before sunset His first two disciples were still calling Him "rabbi" but right after the dawn of the next morning they were shouting to everyone that they'd found "Messiah", proving that during the night He'd opened to them the prophecies of Daniel.

If your timetable is correct, the time at which He became "Messiah" until the time they cried "Crucify Him, crucify Him!!!" was only a few days. How could Jesus accomplish all that God had prophesied that the Messiah would accomplish in just that short period of time? Thank you for sharing with me your views on this subject and I hope you will consider mine, Marilyn.
Hi Phoneman777,

OK. Let`s have a closer look at what the disciples said and who people thought Jesus was.

`(Andrew) He first found his own brother Simon, & said to him, “We have found the Messiah, which is being interpreted, the Christ.`(John 1: 41)

`When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?”

So they said ,”Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, & others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” ….`Then he commanded his disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ (Messiah).` (Matt. 16: 13 – 20)

Peter did understand that Jesus was the Messiah, (by the Holy Spirit) but the general population did not know the Jesus was the Messiah & Jesus told His disciples not to tell them. Thus your understanding here, bro, is not correct.

The triumphal entry is not about Jesus being recognized as the Messiah, but about His APPEARING AS A COMMANDER.

PrinceHeb. word `nagid,` meaning a commander, captain, chief.

So I believe that clearly shows why Daniel says, `Messiah the Prince.` He is saying, by the Holy Spirit, that Messiah will appear as a commander (`nagid) & Zechariah tells us that when He does, it will be on a colt, (not stallion as other commanders do.)
So let`s look again at exactly what Daniel, Zechariah & Luke are saying & showing.

`….rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be 7 weeks & 62 weeks, (sevens)` (69 weeks)(Dan. 9: 25)

This is prophesied in more detail by Zechariah.

`Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold your King is coming to you; He is just & having salvation, lowly & riding on a donkey, a colt, the foal of a donkey.` (Zechariah 9: 9)

Then on `Palm Sunday` (Mar. 30, 33 AD), the Messiah appears as Prince riding on a colt.


`And it came to pass, ….that He (Jesus) sent two disciples, saying, “Go into the village opposite you, where as you enter, you will find a colt tied,….Then they brought him to Jesus. And they threw their own garments on the colt, & they set Jesus on him. And as He went, they spread their clothes on the road.

Then, as He was now drawing near the descent of the Mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice & praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works they had seen, saying –

Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord!...` (Luke 19: 28 – 38)

Thus we see Jesus riding into Jerusalem amid great acclamations by the multitude. They were spreading their clothes before Him as one does to a conqueror, a captain of an army. This is the picture we are shown – Jesus as the commander riding into Jerusalem; however He is on a colt not a stallion. He is meek & lowly, not proud & arrogant. He will conquer by laying down His life not by warring against the Romans.

Such detail only God can know. He is the one who said through Daniel that it would be 69 weeks (69 x 7) till Christ is received as PRINCE, a commander by the people.

`….rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be 7 weeks & 62 weeks, (sevens)` (69 weeks)(Dan. 9: 25)

PrinceHeb. word `nagid,` meaning a commander, captain, chief.

No assuming (as you thought) Phoneman, but clear from the word of God.

Marilyn.
 

Phoneman777

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Marilyn C said:
Hi Phoneman777,

OK. Let`s have a closer look at what the disciples said and who people thought Jesus was.

`(Andrew) He first found his own brother Simon, & said to him, “We have found the Messiah, which is being interpreted, the Christ.`(John 1: 41)

`When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?”

So they said ,”Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, & others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” ….`Then he commanded his disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ (Messiah).` (Matt. 16: 13 – 20)

Peter did understand that Jesus was the Messiah, (by the Holy Spirit) but the general population did not know the Jesus was the Messiah & Jesus told His disciples not to tell them. Thus your understanding here, bro, is not correct.

The triumphal entry is not about Jesus being recognized as the Messiah, but about His APPEARING AS A COMMANDER.

PrinceHeb. word `nagid,` meaning a commander, captain, chief.

So I believe that clearly shows why Daniel says, `Messiah the Prince.` He is saying, by the Holy Spirit, that Messiah will appear as a commander (`nagid) & Zechariah tells us that when He does, it will be on a colt, (not stallion as other commanders do.)
So let`s look again at exactly what Daniel, Zechariah & Luke are saying & showing.

`….rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be 7 weeks & 62 weeks, (sevens)` (69 weeks)(Dan. 9: 25)

This is prophesied in more detail by Zechariah.

`Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold your King is coming to you; He is just & having salvation, lowly & riding on a donkey, a colt, the foal of a donkey.` (Zechariah 9: 9)

Then on `Palm Sunday` (Mar. 30, 33 AD), the Messiah appears as Prince riding on a colt.


`And it came to pass, ….that He (Jesus) sent two disciples, saying, “Go into the village opposite you, where as you enter, you will find a colt tied,….Then they brought him to Jesus. And they threw their own garments on the colt, & they set Jesus on him. And as He went, they spread their clothes on the road.

Then, as He was now drawing near the descent of the Mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice & praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works they had seen, saying –

Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord!...` (Luke 19: 28 – 38)

Thus we see Jesus riding into Jerusalem amid great acclamations by the multitude. They were spreading their clothes before Him as one does to a conqueror, a captain of an army. This is the picture we are shown – Jesus as the commander riding into Jerusalem; however He is on a colt not a stallion. He is meek & lowly, not proud & arrogant. He will conquer by laying down His life not by warring against the Romans.

Such detail only God can know. He is the one who said through Daniel that it would be 69 weeks (69 x 7) till Christ is received as PRINCE, a commander by the people.

`….rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be 7 weeks & 62 weeks, (sevens)` (69 weeks)(Dan. 9: 25)

PrinceHeb. word `nagid,` meaning a commander, captain, chief.

No assuming (as you thought) Phoneman, but clear from the word of God.

Marilyn.
Jesus was a Prince from birth, as are all sons of a King. Jesus commanded authority over angels, demons, both Jew and Gentile, even the very elements long before His Triumphant Entry.

But you argue that His keeping all this authority from public view denies Him the right to be called "Messiah the Prince". Would you argue that His keeping His divinity from public view denies Him the right to be called "God"? Of course you wouldn't, so why deny the other?

Besides, 444 B.C. makes no mathematical sense, because it would place Jesus' crucifixion in 39 A.D. when He would have been 43! We know that His ministry as Messiah the Prince began when He stepped out of the Jordan, when He was "about 30 years old" in 27 A.D. (you probably know that all scholars recognize Jesus' birth as about 4 B.C., but it was discovered too late for any corrections to historical dates in history). However, if you count from 457 B.C., you come exactly to 27 A.D., the years "Messiah the Prince" was anointed by God to begin fulfilling the OT Messianic prophecies by the power and authority of the Father which Jesus commanded.
 

Wormwood

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The 70 weeks points to Jesus' first coming (like all of Daniel's other dreams and visions), not his second.


““Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.” (Daniel 9:24, ESV)
Seventy weeks we decreed to bring an end to sin and atone for iniquity, not to bring an end to the world. Sin was defeated and atonement was provided at the cross. The covenant that was set up for many is the New Covenant in Christ's blood. The entire focus of these weeks is the cross of Jesus and to make it about end times scenarios is to ignore what the angel said the 70 weeks was pointing to in the above verse.

The abomination that brought desolation was the rejection and crucifixion of the Messiah (and the subsequent sacrifices that ignored the perfect sacrifice).

““O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! See, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’ ”” (Matthew 23:37–39, ESV)
 

keras

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In no way have the seven items of Daniel 9:24 been completly fulfilled. Yes, the Way for their fulfillment is prepared, but we await their final completion.

Those who like to think the Seventy weeks are over have no answer for all of Daniel 12:1-13 or the many time periods given in Revelation.

The [still to happen] 'Abomination of desolation', cannot be the Crucifixion, that idea simply doesn't fit with Daniel 11:31, Mark 13:14-19, 2 Thess. 2:4, Revelation 13:5-15
 

Marilyn C

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[SIZE=12pt][/SIZE]
`Jesus was a Prince from birth, as are all sons of a King. Jesus commanded
authority over angels, demons, both Jew and Gentile, even the very elements long before His Triumphant Entry.
[SIZE=12pt]But you argue that His keeping all this authority from public view denies Him the right to be called "Messiah the Prince". Would you argue that His keeping His divinity from public view denies Him the right to be called "God"? Of course you wouldn't, so why deny the other?`[/SIZE]

Hi Phoneman777,

I agree that the Lord Jesus Christ is God, King of Heaven, King of Glory, King of the Ages, Messiah the Prince, etc long before His manifestation here on earth. However…..God`s word is referring to the people of Israel receiving Jesus as their King, their Messiah. It is thus that He Himself revealed Himself on that special day as the prophet Zechariah foretold by the Holy Spirit.

`Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold your King is coming to you; He is just & having salvation, lowly & riding on a donkey, a colt, the foal of a donkey.` (Zechariah 9: 9)

Jesus revealed Himself as the PRINCE. Not meaning the `son of a king,` but a commander of an army.

PrinceHeb. word `nagid,` meaning a commander, captain, chief.

We see the Lord in this role as captain of the angelic hosts of the Lord. Joshua (outside Jericho) speaks to Him & then worships Him.

``…as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on His face to the earth, & did worship….`(Joshua 5: 14)

Thus we see that the Lord has always been commander, Prince, but the people of Israel need to receive Him. On Palm Sunday they did, as He rode the colt of the donkey into Jerusalem. They lay palm branches & clothes before Him. As we know the people soon turned against Him & had Him crucified.

However we also know that one glorious day He will return to deliver Israel & bring vengeance upon His enemies. This time He will also come as commander, captain of the angelic hosts & be depicted symbolically riding on a white horse, a great conqueror. This we are shown in Matthew & Luke.

White horse`white,` is from Gk. word `leukos,` meaning light, glory.
`horse,` is a symbol for power & strength. (Ps. 147: 10)

`they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power & great glory. And He will send His angels...` (Matt. 24: 30 & 31)
`When the Son of Man comes in His glory, & all the Holy Angels with Him...` (Matt. 25: 31)
`the Son of man ...comes in His own glory, & in His Father`s glory & in the glory of the Holy Angels.` (Luke 9: 26)

Truly God`s word reveals the Lord Jesus Christ as the Messiah Prince, & one day Israel will again receive Him as such.

Marilyn.
 

Marilyn C

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`Besides, 444 B.C. makes no mathematical sense, because it would place Jesus' crucifixion in 39 A.D. when He would have been 43! We know that His ministry as Messiah the Prince began when He stepped out of the Jordan, when He was "about 30 years old" in 27 A.D. (you probably know that all scholars recognize Jesus' birth as about 4 B.C., but it was discovered too late for any corrections to historical dates in history). However, if you count from 457 B.C., you come exactly to 27 A.D., the years "Messiah the Prince" was anointed by God to begin fulfilling the OT Messianic prophecies by the power and authority of the Father which Jesus commanded.`
Hi Phoneman777,

God`s word makes very clear mathematical sense, right to the very day.

_____I________________________________________________I______
Mar. 5, 444BC……………………..(69 x 7)………………………Mar. 30, 33AD…….

March 5, 444 BC – Neh. 2: 1 – 5. Artaxerxes Longimanus of Persia gives edict to rebuild Jerusalem & Temple.
March 30, 33 AD – Zech. 9: 9 & Luke 19: 29 – 44. Messiah appears as Prince. (Palm Sunday)

Prophetic
70 x 7 = 490 years (Sabbatical years)
7 x 7, & 62 x 7 = 69 x 7 = 483 years. (7 years still to come)
483 years of 360 days.

Calendar
476 X 365.242 + 25 days = 173,880 days

Thus the Prophetic & Calendar times match.
(P) 483 years (of 360 days) = (C) 476 (X 365.242 + 25 days) = 173,880 days.


Marilyn.