In me first --

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H. Richard

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1 Tim 1:14-17
14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.
15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, ------ that in me first------ Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.
17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
NKJV

A pattern is something that is used to create copies. Since the above is scripture then Paul was the first to be saved under the gospel of grace.
 

lforrest

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Paul was chosen by the grace of God despite him persecuting the Church. Can you think of a greater example of God's grace in the bible? It is by that example that we can be assured that God's grace is sufficient to cover our transgressions.

He wasn't the first to be saved by the grace of God. The Law never saved anyone, because they couldn't keep it. The atonement sacrifices which pointed to Christ saved people. This was the way graciously provided in the OT for forgiveness of sins.

The other apostles were also graciously selected from among various peoples. But it wasn't as dramatic as Saul's.
 

H. Richard

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lforrest said:
Paul was chosen by the grace of God despite him persecuting the Church. Can you think of a greater example of God's grace in the bible? It is by that example that we can be assured that God's grace is sufficient to cover our transgressions.

He wasn't the first to be saved by the grace of God. The Law never saved anyone, because they couldn't keep it. The atonement sacrifices which pointed to Christ saved people. This was the way graciously provided in the OT for forgiveness of sins.

The other apostles were also graciously selected from among various peoples. But it wasn't as dramatic as Saul's.
Have you torn out this verse in your Bible?

16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, ------ that in me first------ Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.

Since it is in my Bible I will believe it.
 

justaname

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You may find it helpful to look at different translations, let alone actually looking to the original language of the text, before deciding on a doctrine. This one here of yours is faulty to say the least.

15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.
16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

New American Standard Bible: 1995 update. (1995). (1 Ti 1:15–16). LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.

πρῶτος, η, ον

pert. to prominence, first, foremost, most important, most prominent
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 893). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
 

H. Richard

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justaname said:
You may find it helpful to look at different translations, let alone actually looking to the original language of the text, before deciding on a doctrine. This one here of yours is faulty to say the least.

15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.
16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

New American Standard Bible: 1995 update. (1995). (1 Ti 1:15–16). LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.

πρῶτος, η, ον

pert. to prominence, first, foremost, most important, most prominent
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 893). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
I see that you did not want to discuss verse 16.

I hate to bust your bubble but my NKJ Bible reads this way.

1 Tim 1:15-16
15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. Your = foremost of all
16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.

NKJV

Eph 2:20
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone. ---- your "foremost of all"
NKJV

Chief means the same thing as foremost of all. I think you are grasping at straws.
 

justaname

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H. Richard said:
I see that you did not want to discuss verse 16.

I hate to bust your bubble but my NKJ Bible reads this way.

1 Tim 1:15-16
15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. Your = foremost of all
16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.

NKJV

Eph 2:20
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone. ---- your "foremost of all"
NKJV

Chief means the same thing as foremost of all. I think you are grasping at straws.
Perhaps you want to re-read my post. Verse 16 is in there. The word translated foremost in 15 is the exact same word in 16 also translated foremost in the NASB (πρῶτος). Paul is not stating he is the first to receive salvation; contextually you are confused. This is why I suggest looking to different translations. Paul is stating the he is the foremost of sinners, as being the foremost of sinners he also was shown mercy so that Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.
 

H. Richard

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justaname said:
Perhaps you want to re-read my post. Verse 16 is in there. The word translated foremost in 15 is the exact same word in 16 also translated foremost in the NASB (πρῶτος). Paul is not stating he is the first to receive salvation; contextually you are confused. This is why I suggest looking to different translations. Paul is stating the he is the foremost of sinners, as being the foremost of sinners he also was shown mercy so that Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.
What I have shown you is that the words """foremost""" means the same thing as """Chief""

Look it up in a dictionary like I have. --- Foremost = SYN, see chief.

Get it yet? Your play on words changed nothing.

Paul's words ""in me first""" mean exactly what they says especially when he says he is the pattern to follow.

example = to behave so as to be a pattern or model for others to imitate.

Perhaps you should spend more time in the English language.
 

Jun2u

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H. Richard said:
1 Tim 1:14-17
14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.
15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, ------ that in me first------ Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.
17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.


A pattern is something that is used to create copies. Since the above is scripture then Paul was the first to be saved under the gospel of grace.

Paul is not saying he is the first to be saved under the doctrine of Grace, rather in all of the world, he considers himself to be the chief or number “one” as on top of the list of sinners, as you will.

Since it is in my Bible I will believe it.

When John announced Jesus as the Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world, did you suppose/believe that Jesus has become an animal since it is written in the Bible?

No one has disputed your understanding of the word chief. It is your understanding which is in question by saying that Paul was the “first” to be saved under grace which is very faulty.

The truth is if anyone should have been the first to be saved under grace it would be Noah. We read:

Ge 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

To God Be The Glory
 

Angelina

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A pattern is something that is used to create copies. Since the above is scripture then Paul was the first to be saved under the gospel of grace.
I would also agree that the Apostles and disciples being persecuted for the "Way" prior to Paul's inclusion as an Apostle, were indeed already saved by grace through faith.

16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, ------ that in me first------ Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.

...and I also believe that Paul was talking about how he considered himself as the worst among the perpetrators who persecuted the Christ's Church and his believers and how patient Christ was toward him...

Bless you!
 

StanJ

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H. Richard said:
Have you torn out this verse in your Bible?
16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, ------ that in me first------ Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.
Since it is in my Bible I will believe it.
You have to be able to properly understand it first before you can believe it. An example does not make him the first to be saved, as an example is just an example, not a precedent. Jesus started saving Sinners as soon as they believed on him which is exactly what Paul said in verse 15 if you were to read it. You should read Luke 7:50 to see who Jesus said the first person to be saved was. You may also want to read what Jesus himself said in John 5:24
 

Webers_Home

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One of Webster's definitions of "pattern" is: a reliable sample of traits, acts,
tendencies, or other observable characteristics of a person, group, or
institution; for example a behavior pattern and/or a spending pattern.

It appears to me that 1Tim 1:16 is saying that Paul is an exhibit of Jesus'
ready willingness to forgive Christ haters.

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Jun2u

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Webers_Home said:
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One of Webster's definitions of "pattern" is: a reliable sample of traits, acts,
tendencies, or other observable characteristics of a person, group, or
institution; for example a behavior pattern and/or a spending pattern.

It appears to me that 1Tim 1:16 is saying that Paul is an exhibit of Jesus'
ready willingness to forgive Christ haters.

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Firstly, we do not get truth “out there” (in the world) but only through the scriptures. Bible says we are to compare scripture with scripture. “ All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine,...etc,” In other words, the Bible is its own dictionary and interpreter.

Secondly, sin is sin! Sin must be paid for and all man have sinned. Jesus is not saying Paul is an exhibit or on display for Him to willingly to forgive Christ haters, as you put it, because Jesus already spoke on this matter about sin in:

Mt 12:31-32

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

To God Be The Glory
 

StanJ

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Jun2u said:
Firstly, we do not get truth “out there” (in the world) but only through the scriptures. Bible says we are to compare scripture with scripture. “ All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine,...etc,” In other words, the Bible is its own dictionary and interpreter.

Secondly, sin is sin! Sin must be paid for and all man have sinned. Jesus is not saying Paul is an exhibit or on display for Him to willingly to forgive Christ haters, as you put it, because Jesus already spoke on this matter about sin in:

Mt 12:31-32

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
You have to understand what blaspheming the Holy Spirit actually is before you can use it to instruct others.
 

Jun2u

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StanJ said:
You have to understand what blaspheming the Holy Spirit actually is before you can use it to instruct others.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Mark 3:22
And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He (Jesus) hath Beelzebub (Satan), and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.

Mark 3:28-29

28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

The reason?


BECAUSE THEY (SCRIBES) SAID, HE (JESUS) HATH AN UNCLEAN SPIRIT (SATAN) Mk 3:30.

Did you have another meaning for the term, "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit other than Mk 3:30?"

To God Be The Glory
 

Webers_Home

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Jun2u said:
Firstly, we do not get truth “out there” (in the world) but only through the
scriptures.
English-speaking people who use Bibles translated into the English language
never really understand their English translations when they refuse to use
standard English definitions of English words. Failure to use standard English
definitions of English words inevitably results in a Tower off Babel.

This holds true for every translation whether it be French, Chinese, Spanish,
Portuguese, or Farsi, etc. Refusal to use the appropriate dictionary inevitably
results in a barrier to communication between not only fellow men, but also
their spirit and God's spirit.

†. 1Cor 14:9 . . Unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand,
how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air.

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KingJ

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H. Richard said:
A pattern is something that is used to create copies. Since the above is scripture then Paul was the first to be saved under the gospel of grace.
What of Eph 4:8? 'When He ascended on high He led a host of captives'.
 

Webers_Home

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Paul wasn't saved until the ninth chapter of Acts. All throughout the first
eight chapters Christ's church was increasing its numbers and people were
being saved by means of the gospel preached by Christ's disciples, including,
but not limited to, Candace's treasurer. (Acts 8:26-40)

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H. Richard

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Webers_Home said:
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Paul wasn't saved until the ninth chapter of Acts. All throughout the first
eight chapters Christ's church was increasing its numbers and people were
being saved by means of the gospel preached by Christ's disciples, including,
but not limited to, Candace's treasurer. (Acts 8:26-40)

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These Jews were being saved for only one reason, They believed Jesus was their promised Messiah and King. If you think there was a Gentile in the bunch you better go read about Peter's vision.

Acts 10:9-10
Peter's Vision 9 The next day, as they went on their journey and drew near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour.
10 Then he became very hungry and wanted to eat; but while they made ready, he fell into a trance
NKJV

If Peter did not know that the Gentiles were include until he had a vision in Acts 10, why do people claim the church of grace started with Peter on the day of Pentecost??