Natural Theology?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Status
Not open for further replies.

StanJ

Lifelong student of God's Word.
May 13, 2014
4,798
111
63
70
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
River Jordan said:
The natural sciences can inform natural theology.
Sadly you fail to see that you've got that backwards and always have had since you been here anyway. Natural theology informs Natural Sciences. If Natural Sciences aren't based on natural theology then they're not factual and should not be treated as such.

River Jordan said:
And the results of natural science can feed into the process.
Only for those who are inculcated into that Natural Science.

River Jordan said:
What you describe is the same thing that led to the Galileo embarrassment. The Church was sure that scripture described a stationary-earth geocentric model of the universe, which led them to denounce and suppress any and all science that contradicted their interpretation. But as we all know, in the end it was the Church's interpretations that were wrong, not the science.
That is a total rip mis-representation of the facts. The church overall believed, based on what the Bible did say, that the Earth was round, not flat, and not the center of the universe. Now the RCC is another thing I'm not representative of the overall Church / Body of Christ that existed at that time.

River Jordan said:
We should avoid repeating that same mistake.
In that regard the only mistake I see being made on this forum, is people that come in and advocate Flat Earth. That can and has been provably shown to be false, as The Germ Theory was shown to be true. Certain Natural Sciences never have been proven.
 
T

TravisT

Guest
River Jordan,

If you would like to debate evolution please start your own thread. I want to keep this one on topic dealing with Classical christian Natural theology.
 

River Jordan

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2014
1,856
50
48
Then how about someone taking a crack at the question I've been asking since the very beginning of this thread?

Is natural theology only valid as long as it leads you to conclusions about God that you already had?
 
T

TravisT

Guest
God is infinite and we will forever be learning new things about him but anything new that we learn about him will never contradict what we already do know about him from scripture.
 

StanJ

Lifelong student of God's Word.
May 13, 2014
4,798
111
63
70
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
River Jordan said:
Then how about someone taking a crack at the question I've been asking since the very beginning of this thread?
Is natural theology only valid as long as it leads you to conclusions about God that you already had?
And what post number would that be in? The OP is about what Paul expressed in Rom 1:20 Have you read Rom 1:20?
Do you understand what it's saying?
 

KingJ

New Member
Mar 18, 2011
1,568
45
0
41
South Africa
River Jordan said:
Then how about someone taking a crack at the question I've been asking since the very beginning of this thread?

Is natural theology only valid as long as it leads you to conclusions about God that you already had?
Rom 1:20 is pretty clear that you / we all have concluded on God because of natural theology. Discussing / studying the subject further would increase understanding of God.....not concluding there is a god.
 

River Jordan

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2014
1,856
50
48
Administrator said:
River Jordan,

Give me an example
*sigh*

Evolution was the example, but you won't let me talk about that (you delete my posts, but leave Stan's).

No thanks. I can't engage in a discussion when this sort of thing goes on.
 
T

TravisT

Guest
Evolution the way you present it is not an example. I deleted your post because I told you and stanJ that I did not want this to keep going the way it was. I would have deleted anything new he put up too along this line. We were not getting anywhere. I suggest you read up on some examples of Christian Apologetic. I asked you if you want to debate evolution start a new thread.
 

River Jordan

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2014
1,856
50
48
Administrator said:
Evolution the way you present it is not an example.
Yes it is.

Again, the point I raised was whether people were willing to accept something discovered via natural theology that went against what they already believed about God, or is natural theology only valid if it conforms to their pre-held beliefs about God.

As we know, many Christians believe God created organisms distinctly and via supernatural means, and evolution played no role at all. Yet when we study nature we see that organisms arise via the natural process of evolution. That brings us back to the point above, whether people are willing to change something they believe about God if the study of nature (God's creation) tells them differently.

That's what was so frustrating about our exchange. I made my point and described how evolution illustrates this issue quite well. Then you come in, say you don't want to talk about evolution, but then ask me to give an example of the point I was making.....which I had just done via evolution.

I deleted your post because I told you and stanJ that I did not want this to keep going the way it was. I would have deleted anything new he put up too along this line. We were not getting anywhere. I suggest you read up on some examples of Christian Apologetic. I asked you if you want to debate evolution start a new thread.
You deleted my last post, but left Stan's last post (where he jumped into an exchange I was having with you). Sorry, but from where I sit that looks quite biased.
 
T

TravisT

Guest
RJ,

Your point about evolution has not changed anything about how we view God. God is still the maker of heaven and earth. All you have shown is that science has come up with a theory about how things evolve. I believe that some of the points of evolution are correct but that does not change how I view God. Evolution did not just pop out of nowhere. Just like the Big Bang. Something had to get all of this started and that someone is God. And that still conforms to what the Bible tells us about God being the maker of the heavens and the earth.

You asked this question "Is natural theology only valid as long as it leads you to conclusions about God that you already had? "

And what I am telling you is YES. We will never find something in nature that will contradict what the bible tells us about who God is. And if science comes up with a theory that states otherwise then we as Christians know that it is false. That is where our faith comes in.
 

River Jordan

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2014
1,856
50
48
Administrator said:
Your point about evolution has not changed anything about how we view God.
If it turns out that all life on earth, humans included, share a common evolutionary ancestry, it wouldn't change a single thing about how you view God?

All you have shown is that science has come up with a theory about how things evolve. I believe that some of the points of evolution are correct but that does not change how I view God. Evolution did not just pop out of nowhere. Just like the Big Bang. Something had to get all of this started and that someone is God. And that still conforms to what the Bible tells us about God being the maker of the heavens and the earth.
If it was only that simple I would agree. But as we've seen, the issue is much more complex.

You asked this question "Is natural theology only valid as long as it leads you to conclusions about God that you already had? "

And what I am telling you is YES. We will never find something in nature that will contradict what the bible tells us about who God is.
Isn't that the same sort of position that caused the Catholic Church to embarrass itself?

And if science comes up with a theory that states otherwise then we as Christians know that it is false. That is where our faith comes in.
Yep....sounds like the same position to me. IMO, we should learn from such mistakes.
 
T

TravisT

Guest
RJ,

Let me ask you this. Lets assume you are correct on your theory of evolution. In your eyes how does that change God?
 
T

TravisT

Guest
River Jordan said:
If it was only that simple I would agree. But as we've seen, the issue is much more complex.
How is it not that Simple?
 

River Jordan

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2014
1,856
50
48
Administrator said:
Let me ask you this. Lets assume you are correct on your theory of evolution. In your eyes how does that change God?
It shows that God created a universe where things work and develop on their own, without need for His constant tinkering. Genesis depicts God letting the earth "bring forth" things, which is consistent with what we find in His creation. Species evolve, stars form, mountains rise, rivers flow....all on their own because that's how God created things.

How is it not that Simple?
It's not merely a matter of studying nature and concluding "God created everything". All of us here already believed that going in. Do we want to know how things work? Do we allow what we learn to inform our reading of scripture?
 

StanJ

Lifelong student of God's Word.
May 13, 2014
4,798
111
63
70
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
River Jordan said:
How in the world do my posts get deleted while this sort of childish nonsense is allowed to stay up? Is it just a matter of whose team you're on?
I'm trying to understand you because you are NOT very forthcoming. It would explain a lot as to how you refuse to comply with certain conditions you're given, as well as not acknowledge other facts.
 

StanJ

Lifelong student of God's Word.
May 13, 2014
4,798
111
63
70
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
River Jordan said:
It's not merely a matter of studying nature and concluding "God created everything". All of us here already believed that going in. Do we want to know how things work? Do we allow what we learn to inform our reading of scripture?
No we allow our reading of scripture to inform us of the truth and if that truth is contrary to what science tells us, then science is wrong.
This is an issue that you obviously do not get nor agree with.
 
T

TravisT

Guest
River Jordan said:
It shows that God created a universe where things work and develop on their own, without need for His constant tinkering. Genesis depicts God letting the earth "bring forth" things, which is consistent with what we find in His creation. Species evolve, stars form, mountains rise, rivers flow....all on their own because that's how God created things.
Just because stars form, mountains rise and rivers flow does not show or prove that God does not have a hand in it.

Whatever the LORD pleases, He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps. He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth; Who makes lightnings for the rain, Who brings forth the wind from His treasuries. Psalms 135: 6-7

The key word here is Causes. God Caused all of what we see to come about. We as his creation can discover his wonders and marvel at what he has done.
 

StanJ

Lifelong student of God's Word.
May 13, 2014
4,798
111
63
70
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Administrator said:
Here is the article that OzSpen was talking about that I forgot to quote. http://evidenceandanswers.org/article/truth-absolute-or-relative/
Read this and let's talk about it.
I agree totally with the link to this article you posted especially the part about absolute truth I have learned in my 45 years of walking with Christ and studying the Bible that it contains absolute truths because it contains Jesus and he is absolute truth.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.