Let me give you a hand OP, in Romans Abraham is justified by faith because he believed God. In Hebrews it goes one step further to explain that his faith was tried and verified by action: Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, -- justification and God's verification, not the same thing. If one says that he believes God but does not act upon it, what good would it be? That's James' angle of explanation, and there he goes along with Hebrews 11:17 that confirms that true faith 'does' what it believes, and so we know that this is 100% genuine faith according to Abraham's faith. "By faith Abraham, when he was tried" - he already was justified, and then God wanted to see if he actually meant it or just nodded his head in agreement while his heart remained untouched.
A look at the FACTS
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Born_Again
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James 2:20-21
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
(NKJ)
FACT! No, Abraham was not! ---- according to the scriptures He was accounted righteous (JUSTIFIED) before God several years earlier, *** BEFORE the birth of Isaac, and before he had done anything to "prove" his faith in God.***
Hang on.... Let me understand you, brother. Are you saying that the Bible contradicts its self? Or are you saying you are right and the Bible is wrong.. I'm confused. Clarify this, and I will go from there. As of right now, you are not making any sense.
Go on to verse 22 and 23...22 "You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23 "And the scripture was fulfilled that says "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness, and he was called God's friend." (It was when Abraham was going to sacrifice his son that fulfilled the scriptures, thus, at that point, he was righteous. The faith and the works.)
I still don't understand why you are getting all worked up.
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
(NKJ)
FACT! No, Abraham was not! ---- according to the scriptures He was accounted righteous (JUSTIFIED) before God several years earlier, *** BEFORE the birth of Isaac, and before he had done anything to "prove" his faith in God.***
Hang on.... Let me understand you, brother. Are you saying that the Bible contradicts its self? Or are you saying you are right and the Bible is wrong.. I'm confused. Clarify this, and I will go from there. As of right now, you are not making any sense.
Go on to verse 22 and 23...22 "You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23 "And the scripture was fulfilled that says "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness, and he was called God's friend." (It was when Abraham was going to sacrifice his son that fulfilled the scriptures, thus, at that point, he was righteous. The faith and the works.)
I still don't understand why you are getting all worked up.
You only saw what you wanted to see and that made you miss this;Born_Again said:
[Copied from the OP] In my opinion the book of James is devoid of the gospel of grace as taught by Paul. However, it was completely compatible with the law of Moses. Since the word of God has to be based on truth, I find the book of James is not meant to be used as a book directed to the grace church. It is only truth to those under the Law of
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So you relegate James into the same category as the law and the prophets.
You should look at more than a few scriptures to draw such a conclusion. The phrase "in Christ" is used in James. Those who are in Christ share in his righteousness. Such righteousness comes by faith.
These paradox in James can be resolved without considering it a different gospel.
You should look at more than a few scriptures to draw such a conclusion. The phrase "in Christ" is used in James. Those who are in Christ share in his righteousness. Such righteousness comes by faith.
These paradox in James can be resolved without considering it a different gospel.
tell me where the words "in Christ" appear in the book of James. My word search for those two words together did not find them in the book of James.lforrest said:
The very first verse in the book of James tells us that James is writing to the Jews with no mention of Gentiles. If you read my study on the book of Acts "A Study/focus on Acts 21:20-21:" you will see that James is still teaching the Law of Moses for the Jews as late as Acts chapter 21. The study is on this forum.
The paradox can only be resolved by knowing that Jesus and the 12 Apostles never said that the Jews were not under the Law of Moses but the Gospel that Jesus gave Paul did.
THE PROBLEM:
James 2:24 You see then that a man is ""justified by works,"" and ""not by faith only.""
But Paul said:
Gal 2:16 "knowing that a man is ""not justified by the works"" of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
There is no way to harmonize or blend the two statements above. Nor is there any reason to want to. In both cases it is being justified before God, not man. Both statements cannot be true unless there is a reason. First came the law and then came grace. To try and make them saying the same thing is to ignore that reason.
""justified by works,"" and ""not justified by the works"" can not be made the same idea.
James 2:1-2StanJ said:
Beware of Personal Favoritism 2 My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality.
2 For if there should come into your assembly a man with gold rings, in fine apparel, and there should also come in a poor man in filthy clothes,
NKJV
Boy are you confused. The words "in Christ" is not in James 2:1
Not at all you're just using a bad translation.H. Richard said:
My brothers, have faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, without partiality.
Problem is everyone misses teh point. It was because God said to Him to go, that he went, and its because He believed God , when God said he would be the father of many nations, that he went, becuase he knew God would Keep His promise. So His work was believing God,(faith) if He did not He would never have gone. He certainly did not go on His own merrit which is where what everyone is trying to do. And yes very first line says to te h12 tribes of Israel so it was to teh Jews He was writng but it was about Faith. not the law.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
A cop out. I suppose if you found the word "" in"" in James 1 and then found the word ""Christ"" in James 2 you would say that is ""in Christ". Where did you go to school?StanJ said:
The two words In and Christ used together is found only in the writings of Paul. The children of God are """IN CHRIST"", placed there by the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
You are raising a Calvinistic type argument on God's omniscience. Are you a Calvinist?H. Richard said:
Do you believe Pharoah's heart was hardened in the sense that he was robbed of free will?
Grasping God is beyond us. But what we can grasp is God's wisdom in selecting Abraham. Have you read how Abraham spoke to God over the destruction of Sodom? Abraham was a very good man. A man after Gods' heart.
I believe Pharoah had faith that God would do as He said. I don't believe that after all the plagues the red sea parting came as a surprise. Do you? Abraham trusted his son's life in God's hands because he had faith in God being a good and righteous God.
You cannot isolate Gen 15:6 from the rest of scripture or even simply context on Abraham.
Just because God can be evil and biased......does not mean He is.
I don't like labels. Once a label is placed on someone it is easy to discount what they say. I am not influenced by any religion's ideas. When I was in a Baptist church I heard the messages but went to the scriptures to see if they were correct. Most all of them teach a gospel that mixes Law with grace and that was not what I see in the scriptures. If a person does not see to who a scripture is written too and why they will think it is written to them instead of for them..KingJ said:
The FACTS remind that the book of James was written to the Jews. It is in the Bible FOR US but not TO US. The children of God are under grace in this age. It is the Holy Spirit that teaches God's children.
As for Pharoah's free will, I believe his heart was hardened by Satan's influence just as many are today.
You made the point, not me. If you're not willing to be clear in your assertions then it's your problem with the results. You make another assertion here that is also wrong. In Christ is found in other New Testament writings that Paul did not himself write. Once in Hebrews and 3X in 1st Peter. I found very easily so I'm kind of wondering why you didn't?H. Richard said:
OzSpen
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Richard,H. Richard said:
The Book of James was written to Christian Jews as James 2:1 (ESV) confirms: 'My brothers [or brothers & sisters], show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory'. They are those who hold faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, so they are Christian believers.
James 1:1 confirms they were 'the twelve tribes in the Dispersion', but throughout, James is providing Christian teaching. This is further emphasised in the passage on prayer of faith (James 5:13-18). The sick are encouraged to call for the elders of the church (not the synagogue) to anoint with oil and pray in the name of the Lord (Jas 5:14).
Oz
I said it was written to the Jews didn't I? You want it to be to Jews who did not believe. Why would James ay all those things to Jews who did not believe?OzSpen said:
Lets set the record clear: ! = there were Jews who did not believe Jesus was their Messiah and King. 2 = There were Jews who DID believe Jesus was their Messiah and King.
James was writing to the Jews who believed Jesus was the promised Messiah and King. These same Jews who believed Jesus was the Jewish Messiah and King were the same ones that Paul said were trying to get the Gentiles saved under grace to go under the law of Moses. As far as those believing Jews teaching Gentiles take a look at what Luke wrote I Acts.
Acts 11:19
19 Now those who were scattered after the persecution that arose over Stephen traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to no one but the Jews only.
These believing Jews were not a part of the body of Christ. There is nothing in the scriptures that say they were saved under grace. They were saved simply because they believed Jesus was their Messsiah and King just as the theif on the cross was
These were not saved because they believed Jesus shed blood paid for all ther sins of the flesh.
NKJV
OzSpen
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Richard,H. Richard said:
That's your invention.
All who are saved become part of the body of Christ, and that includes Jews and non-Jews (Gentiles). 'There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus' (Gal 3:28 NIV).
In the ecclesia of God, ALL believers are included. Jews are NOT excluded.
Oz
I let the scriptures say what they say and you say it is my invention. You should spend more time reading the scriptures instead of thinking up ways to write lies.OzSpen said:
However you are right if you are saying UNDER GRACE all are included. This was not true under the Law of Moses. Gentiles were unclean under the law of Moses.
Eph 2:11-13
Brought Near by His Blood 11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh — who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands —
12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
NKJV
Grace is founded on the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. You won't find the shed blood mentioned in Peter's sermon on Pentecost.
Speaking of writing lies, what exactly do you think Luke is stating an Acts 2:23 & 36?H. Richard said:
If you think being crucified on the cross does not depict the shed blood of Christ then you really don't understand what crucifixion was all about in those days. It was pretty much all about bleeding to death.
In what you quoted, Acts 2:23 & 36, show me where it says Christ's shed blood paid for the sins of the whole world? Knowing He was killed on a cross does not say anything about His shed blood paying for the sins of the whole world. Many Jews were crucified on a cross by the Romans.StanJ said:
Let me say this, you are dead set on saying that the grace gospel Paul preached was the same as what Jesus and the 12 preached to the Jews You have been taught this all your life.
I DO NOT believe that what Jesus and the 12 preached to the Jews had any of God's grace in it because it was all under the Law of Moses and the covenants made to Israel.
Gal 1:8-9
8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
NKJV
Paul never preached that those under grace had to follow the Law of Moses. Jesus and the 12 did. Since following the wrong gospel will make a person accursed it is up to a person to be sure he/she knows what the gospel of grace really is.
As for me I am fully persuaded (convinced) that Jesus' shed blood on the cross has paid for all my sins of the flesh and you can't show me that it doesn't. Salvation is the work of God. I will not waver at the promise of God through unbelief in the grace gospel Jesus gave to Paul.
Rom 4:20-22
20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God,
21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform.
22 And therefore "it was accounted to him for righteousness."
NKJV
Wormwood
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Richard,
This is utter nonsense. The Gospel to the Jews is not a different Gospel than the one given to the Gentiles. Paul preached to Jews and Gentiles the same Gospel. The Bible does not contradict itself. If you really paid attention to what James wrote, you would notice that he says God "does not show favoritism." God does not have different plans for different people based on their skin or heritage. James is referring to the "church" as the 12 tribes, which is very apparent in chapter 5, as the church and its elders are being addressed. Peter also refers to the church by the labels given to the Jews in the OT (1 Peter 2:9-10).
The problem is that you dont understand the terminology used by the early church and how they saw themselves as "true Israel" and how Gentiles were "grafted into" faithful Israel. God is no respecter of persons. All who are of the faith of Abraham are children of Abraham and true Israel. Thus they are part of the 12 tribes. There is no need to create new Gospels based on heritage. All you have to do is understand how the early church understood their standing before God...which is overwhelmingly evident both in the NT and in early church writings.
This is utter nonsense. The Gospel to the Jews is not a different Gospel than the one given to the Gentiles. Paul preached to Jews and Gentiles the same Gospel. The Bible does not contradict itself. If you really paid attention to what James wrote, you would notice that he says God "does not show favoritism." God does not have different plans for different people based on their skin or heritage. James is referring to the "church" as the 12 tribes, which is very apparent in chapter 5, as the church and its elders are being addressed. Peter also refers to the church by the labels given to the Jews in the OT (1 Peter 2:9-10).
The problem is that you dont understand the terminology used by the early church and how they saw themselves as "true Israel" and how Gentiles were "grafted into" faithful Israel. God is no respecter of persons. All who are of the faith of Abraham are children of Abraham and true Israel. Thus they are part of the 12 tribes. There is no need to create new Gospels based on heritage. All you have to do is understand how the early church understood their standing before God...which is overwhelmingly evident both in the NT and in early church writings.
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