A look at the FACTS

H. Richard · May 9, 2016

Wormwood said:
Richard,

This is utter nonsense. The Gospel to the Jews is not a different Gospel than the one given to the Gentiles. Paul preached to Jews and Gentiles the same Gospel. The Bible does not contradict itself. If you really paid attention to what James wrote, you would notice that he says God "does not show favoritism." God does not have different plans for different people based on their skin or heritage. James is referring to the "church" as the 12 tribes, which is very apparent in chapter 5, as the church and its elders are being addressed. Peter also refers to the church by the labels given to the Jews in the OT (1 Peter 2:9-10).

The problem is that you dont understand the terminology used by the early church and how they saw themselves as "true Israel" and how Gentiles were "grafted into" faithful Israel. God is no respecter of persons. All who are of the faith of Abraham are children of Abraham and true Israel. Thus they are part of the 12 tribes. There is no need to create new Gospels based on heritage. All you have to do is understand how the early church understood their standing before God...which is overwhelmingly evident both in the NT and in early church writings.

Your reply is utter nonsense. You really should read your Bible for what it says rather than to make everything fit a blended gospel of law and grace mixed.

Since you think you are now a part of Israel which tribe will you be in?

You say I should understand what the early church proclaimed. If I do that I will wind up in Hell. I have the writings that God has kept for me in the Bible and that is all I need. Could it be that you do not understand history and the heresies that arose in the early churches. Many turned away and incorporated myths in the churches.

2 Tim 1:13-15 Be Loyal to the Faith
13 Hold fast the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.
14 That good thing which was committed to you, keep by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us.
15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
NKJV ------- and obviously you have too.

Wormwood · May 9, 2016

Ill tell you which tribe I'm in when you show me the Biblical precedent for determining the race and heritage of an individual prior to dispensing a particular prescribed gospel based on that person's heritage. Moreover, considering all the northern tribes were all but wiped out with the Assyrian invasion in 722BC, how are we supposed to track any of those tribes? The traces of the northern 10 tribes vanished thousands of years ago....so good luck with that.

“For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 1:22–24, ESV)

Sure sounds to me like Paul preached the same message to Jews as he did to Greeks.

StanJ · May 9, 2016

H. Richard said:
In what you quoted, Acts 2:23 & 36, show me where it says Christ's shed blood paid for the sins of the whole world? Knowing He was killed on a cross does not say anything about His shed blood paying for the sins of the whole world. Many Jews were crucified on a cross by the Romans.
Let me say this, you are dead set on saying that the grace gospel Paul preached was the same as what Jesus and the 12 preached to the Jews You have been taught this all your life.
I DO NOT believe that what Jesus and the 12 preached to the Jews had any of God's grace in it because it was all under the Law of Moses and the covenants made to Israel.

That's not what you asked in your original question. You simply stated that it doesn't mention the shed blood when in fact crucifixion is all about shed blood. The fact that you don't see words you want to see in Scripture means you don't know how to actually read scripture and understand the thoughts that it is conveying.
I suggest you read John 1:17 to see that the same grace spoken of there is the grace that Paul preached.
Jesus brought the New Covenant with him and although he submitted to the old Covenant his purpose was to fulfill it by dying to replace it with the New Covenant. Jesus' Ministry was only to the Jews and was meant to usher them into the New Covenant. What he preached was the good news of the New Covenant which is the same message that Paul preached. What you believe is irrelevant, what the Bible teaches is true.

StanJ · May 9, 2016

H. Richard said:
Your reply is utter nonsense. You really should read your Bible for what it says rather than to make everything fit a blended gospel of law and grace mixed.
Since you think you are now a part of Israel which tribe will you be in?

I think you should read and try to understand what Paul teaches in Romans 11. Jews and Gentiles are all part of the same olive tree which represents the multi-faceted body of Christ.

OzSpen · May 9, 2016

H. Richard said:
In what you quoted, Acts 2:23 & 36, show me where it says Christ's shed blood paid for the sins of the whole world? Knowing He was killed on a cross does not say anything about His shed blood paying for the sins of the whole world. Many Jews were crucified on a cross by the Romans.

Let me say this, you are dead set on saying that the grace gospel Paul preached was the same as what Jesus and the 12 preached to the Jews You have been taught this all your life.

I DO NOT believe that what Jesus and the 12 preached to the Jews had any of God's grace in it because it was all under the Law of Moses and the covenants made to Israel.

Gal 1:8-9
8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
NKJV

Paul never preached that those under grace had to follow the Law of Moses. Jesus and the 12 did. Since following the wrong gospel will make a person accursed it is up to a person to be sure he/she knows what the gospel of grace really is.

As for me I am fully persuaded (convinced) that Jesus' shed blood on the cross has paid for all my sins of the flesh and you can't show me that it doesn't. Salvation is the work of God. I will not waver at the promise of God through unbelief in the grace gospel Jesus gave to Paul.

Rom 4:20-22
20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God,
21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform.
22 And therefore "it was accounted to him for righteousness."
NKJV

Richard,

I beg to differ. Luke 18:13–14 (ESV) proclaims the Gospel of God's grace through Jesus: “But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other.”

If you want to read more of how the Gospel of Jesus was the Gospel of Paul, see John Piper's message in , 'Did Jesus Preach the Gospel of Evangelicalism?' Did Jesus preach Paul's Gospel? Part of Piper's response is:

Give Christ all his glory in the work of salvation, not just half of it. Half is the work of pardoning sin by becoming our wrath-absorbing punishment. But the other half is the work of providing our perfection by fulfilling everything that God required of us, and then imputing it to us.

Don’t rob the Lord of half his glory in bringing you to God. Christ is our pardon. Christ is our perfection. Therefore, knowing that Jesus and Paul preached the same gospel, let’s join Paul from the heart in saying: "I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith (Phil 3:8-9 ESV).

There is NO contradiction between the Gospel preached by Jesus and the disciples and that preached by Paul. That alleged contradiction is your invention.

It is the NT Gospel that includes John 3:16 (ESV). This is the Gospel of grace that Jesus proclaimed and it contradicts what you are trying to convey:

16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read. 17 And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written,

18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives
and recovering of sight to the blind,
to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.” (Luke 4:16-19 ESV)

Sounds like you are creating your own version of the Gospel to make that provided by the crucified Jesus to contradict that proclaimed by Paul. The biblical evidence harmonises Jesus and Paul.

Oz

H. Richard · May 10, 2016

OzSpen said:
Richard,

I beg to differ. Luke 18:13–14 (ESV) proclaims the Gospel of God's grace through Jesus: “But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other.”

If you want to read more of how the Gospel of Jesus was the Gospel of Paul, see John Piper's message in , 'Did Jesus Preach the Gospel of Evangelicalism?' Did Jesus preach Paul's Gospel? Part of Piper's response is:

There is NO contradiction between the Gospel preached by Jesus and the disciples and that preached by Paul. That alleged contradiction is your invention.

It is the NT Gospel that includes John 3:16 (ESV). This is the Gospel of grace that Jesus proclaimed and it contradicts what you are trying to convey:

Sounds like you are creating your own version of the Gospel to make that provided by the crucified Jesus to contradict that proclaimed by Paul. The biblical evidence harmonises Jesus and Paul.

Oz

It also sounds like you will do anything to keep your blended gospel of law with grace. You offer a quote that you think proves your point but how do you reconcile what Jesus said in the following?

Matt 10:5-7 (NKJ)
5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
6 "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'

Matt 15:23-24 (NKJ)
23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, "Send her away, for she cries out after us."
24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

But I see you wish to say He didn't really mean it.

lforrest · May 10, 2016

Jesus was first offered to the Jews then when he was rejected by them the offer was extended to include the Gentiles.

Romans 11:11

Also the parable of the great banquet in luke 14 should give insight into this.

H. Richard · May 10, 2016

lforrest said:
Jesus was first offered to the Jews then when he was rejected by them the offer was extended to include the Gentiles.

Romans 11:11

Also the parable of the great banquet in luke 14 should give insight into this.

What offer was extended? Can't you read where the Jews will be trodden down by the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles is filled. Luke 21:24

I believe the following story, told by Jesus, tells us about what happened to the Jews and about Jesus' offer of grace and salvation in this age.

Matt 22:1-14 NKJV
1 And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said:
2 "The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son,
3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come.
4 Again, he sent out other servants, saying, 'Tell those who are invited, "See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding."'
5 But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business.
6 And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them.

7 But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

Note; This is where God's offer of the Jewish Kingdom was ended with the destruction of the Jewish Temple. The offer will not be repeated until the time of the Gentile is ended.

Grace started;

8 Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy.
9 Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.'
10 So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests.

11 "But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment.
12 So he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?' And he was speechless.
13 Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."
***
There is nothing that those that came did that made them eligible to be at the wedding. Both the good and the bad were welcome (verse 9).
In order to understand verses 11 - 13 it should be noted that during those times the roads were NOT paved as we have them today. The roads were dusty and dirty. It was the custom during that time for the host to furnish clean garments to his guests.

In the story we see that one of the guests refused to wear the garment that was provide by the host. If you can see it the wedding garments are signifying the righteousness that God freely gives those that place their faith, trust, confidence and hope in Jesus’ work on the cross you will realize that the man that was not wearing his garment was refusing to accept the righteousness given by God and was standing in his own righteousness. -- But the Jews understood none of this.

A perfect example of men and women who place their faith, trust, confidence and hope in their own religious works when God has provided the only work that is acceptable to Him; ---- His own.

You show a remarkable lack of Bible knowledge.

OzSpen · May 10, 2016

H. Richard said:
It also sounds like you will do anything to keep your blended gospel of law with grace. You offer a quote that you think proves your point but how do you reconcile what Jesus said in the following?

Matt 10:5-7 (NKJ)
5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
6 "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'

Matt 15:23-24 (NKJ)
23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, "Send her away, for she cries out after us."
24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

But I see you wish to say He didn't really mean it.

Richard,

This is what happens when you ignore what I wrote to push your own view of Jesus's gospel of law + grace being different to what Paul preached.

You obviously don't want to integrate the Scripture I gave from Luke 18:13-14 (ESV), John Piper's sermon in 'Did Jesus Preach the Gospel of Evangelicalism?', and the Scriptures you gave.

The Scriptures you gave involved Jesus's instructions to deal with specific circumstances. They in no way contradict Luke 18:13-14, otherwise that would make Jesus a promoter of contradiction (i.e. a liar), which He is NOT.

You are one who doesn't seem to be able to compute evidence that is given to challenge your views.

Oz

H. Richard · May 10, 2016

OzSpen said:
Richard,

This is what happens when you ignore what I wrote to push your own view of Jesus's gospel of law + grace being different to what Paul preached.

You obviously don't want to integrate the Scripture I gave from Luke 18:13-14 (ESV), John Piper's sermon in 'Did Jesus Preach the Gospel of Evangelicalism?', and the Scriptures you gave.

The Scriptures you gave involved Jesus's instructions to deal with specific circumstances. They in no way contradict Luke 18:13-14, otherwise that would make Jesus a promoter of contradiction (i.e. a liar), which He is NOT.

You are one who doesn't seem to be able to compute evidence that is given to challenge your views.

Oz

Your not interested in the truth. All you want to do is play a blame game. You say I ignore what you say and I say you ignore what the scriptures I post say. You say I am wrong and I say you are wrong. So be it.

I am not interested in your blame game.

iakov · May 31, 2016

H. Richard said:
James 2:20-21
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
(NKJ)

FACT! No, Abraham was not!　 ---- according to the scriptures He was accounted righteous (JUSTIFIED) before God several years earlier, *** BEFORE the birth of Isaac, and before he had done anything to "prove" his faith in God.***

The rest of the passage says:
Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. 4 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. (RSV)

So you have contradicted the explicit, clear teaching of scripture.

And ,THAT, friend, is a fact.

junobet · May 31, 2016

H. Richard said:
James 2:20-21
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
(NKJ)

FACT! No, Abraham was not!　 ---- according to the scriptures He was accounted righteous (JUSTIFIED) before God several years earlier, *** BEFORE the birth of Isaac, and before he had done anything to "prove" his faith in God.***

Genesis 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
(NKJ)

FACT! Not only that, but God accounted him righteous solely for his faith in His Promises, and not by anything that he did.　 There is nothing in Genesis 15 that mentions any works that Abraham did. Paul accurately reports this.　 It seems that James did not consider the account in Genesis 15.　 It was not until Genesis 22, many years after Isaac was born, when Abraham was well over 100 years old, that he agreed to offer Isaac.

James writes:
22　 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23　 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.
24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

FACT! Neither of those last two statements jives with the Genesis 15:4-6 account. Nowhere does the OT Scripture say that Abraham "was called God's friend" BECAUSE he was willing to offer up his son Isaac. In Isaiah 41:8 it states that God called Abraham His friend but nowhere in the context of the chapter does He say it was because Abraham offered up his son Isaac
.
FACT! What James wrote, as shown above, is a direct contradiction of the Gospel that Paul taught and the account given in Genesis 15:4-6. Abraham was righteous before God solely because he believed God’s promises.

In my opinion the book of James is devoid of the gospel of grace as taught by Paul. However, it was completely compatible with the law of Moses. Since the word of God has to be based on truth, I find the book of James is not meant to be used as a book directed to the grace church. It is only truth to those under the Law of Moses, the Jews.
Here are some more facts that support my opinion. I find them interesting.

1. The word “Law” is found in 18 places
2. The word “grace” is found in 2 places
3. The word “Christ” is found in 2 places
4. The word “Justified” is found in 2 place with the words “by works” after them
5. The words “by faith” is found 1 time (justified by works and not by faith only)
6. The word “cross” is not found
7. The word “reconciled” is not found
8. The word “sanctified” is not found
9. The word “saved” is not found
10. The words “in Christ” are not found
11. The shed blood of Jesus on the cross is not mentioned
.
Romans 4:1-7 Abraham Justified by Faith.
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

David Celebrates the Same Truth

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
NKJV

Well, Luther somehow managed to overcome his aversions against the Epistle of James, so maybe so can you.

The solution is that we can’t reach salvation via our good works, but only by God’s grace that we accept in faith. But when God gives us faith, this faith will make us want to do good works. If our faith doesn’t make us want to do good works, it is – as James says – dead. Merely an empty superficial declaration devoid of any true spirituality.

[SIZE=medium]P.S.: and of course getting circumcised as a grown man (ouch!) etc. to fulfill Mosaic law is what Paul meant by “works” and James meant helping out those in need, the kind of charity that is generally considered good, whether you are a Jew or not.[/SIZE]

FHII · May 31, 2016

Was James talking about "good works"? I believe there's a difference. Jesus, Paul, Luke (in the book of Acts) and Peter all spoke of good works. James never said "good works".

I love the book of James and I wish that conversation wouldn't always focus on what was written in the second chapter. If you get passed that, there's some wisdom that should be listened to. Much like the book of proverbs. In fact, aside from the grace vs. Works debate, James handled a similar problem that Paul had with the Corinthians in the same way Paul did.

Yet i gladly stand with H Richard in our position on James, his history which is given in the book of Acts ans indeed those views James gave in his second chapter.

But we should look at good works vs. Works. Not the same thing.

brakelite · Jun 1, 2016

The works that Abraham completed that testified to his faith, were works of obedience. He obeyed God's call to sacrifice Isaac. Hence God's own testimony to Isaac of why He chose Abraham, and why He would be keeping His promise or covenant...Genesis 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham believed???...NO!!!!...but because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

So James is absolutely correct. Abraham was justified by his faith, and that faith was attested to by his obedience.

FHII · Jun 1, 2016

Gen 26 does say Abraham obeyed God. I believe in obeying God and i don't think anyone here disagrees (that doesn't mean we are bound by the law though, because we are told that we not under the law).

Now, Abraham was blessed as was his seed. But the chapter NEVER says his obedience was counted for righteousness. Gen 15 says it was his faith that was counted for righteousness.

Both James and Paul acknowledge that, but James simply draws the wrong conclusion.

Another thing that James and Paul agreed on is that works only justify you in the eyes of men.

H. Richard · Jun 1, 2016

brakelite said:
The works that Abraham completed that testified to his faith, were works of obedience. He obeyed God's call to sacrifice Isaac. Hence God's own testimony to Isaac of why He chose Abraham, and why He would be keeping His promise or covenant...Genesis 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham believed???...NO!!!!...but because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

So James is absolutely correct. Abraham was justified by his faith, and that faith was attested to by his obedience.

You can believe as you want but as for me I will take the words of Paul on this. Do you remember who Paul was? He was the one that Jesus sent to the Gentiles. I will hear him.

Rom 4:1-4 - Abraham Justified by Faith (Gen 17:10)
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
NKJV

Some want verse 3 to read ---3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and along with Abrahams works" it was accounted to him for righteousness."

But it does not say that.

3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

brakelite · Jun 1, 2016

No-one is arguing that Abraham was justified by faith. What I am saying, and what I believe James is saying, is that Abraham demonstrated his faith through obedience. He believed God would provide a substitute for Isaac, right up to he time when he raised the knife, he continued to rust in His God's love and providence. This faith was accounted to him for righteousness. We also must demonstrate our faith and trust in God through our obedience. Jesus said, if ye love me, keep my commandments. John said
1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.......
.....22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 ¶ And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.....
....1 John 4:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Grace and works do harmonize. They are inseparable when considering our eternal destiny. Will our obedience save us? No. Will we be saved if we do not obey? No.

junobet · Jun 1, 2016

brakelite said:
No-one is arguing that Abraham was justified by faith. What I am saying, and what I believe James is saying, is that Abraham demonstrated his faith through obedience. He believed God would provide a substitute for Isaac, right up to he time when he raised the knife, he continued to rust in His God's love and providence. This faith was accounted to him for righteousness. We also must demonstrate our faith and trust in God through our obedience. Jesus said, if ye love me, keep my commandments. John said
1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.......
.....22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 ¶ And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.....
....1 John 4:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Grace and works do harmonize. They are inseparable when considering our eternal destiny. Will our obedience save us? No. Will we be saved if we do not obey? No.

Mmmh, I always thought that the main point of the story was that Abraham demonstrated his faith through obedience by being actually willing to give up what’s nearest and dearest to him to God, not by believing God would deliver a substitute for Isaac all along. That God then did so was a relieving surprise, making the second point: “We, the Israelites, are at least as devoted to our God as our neighbouring tribes are devoted to their God Molech. Just like them we would sacrifice our children to our God, but our God doesn’t really want us to. Instead he let’s us sacrifice animals.”
Just a trifle, otherwise I widely agree.

H. Richard · Jun 2, 2016

brakelite said:
No-one is arguing that Abraham was justified by faith. What I am saying, and what I believe James is saying, is that Abraham demonstrated his faith through obedience. He believed God would provide a substitute for Isaac, right up to he time when he raised the knife, he continued to rust in His God's love and providence. This faith was accounted to him for righteousness. We also must demonstrate our faith and trust in God through our obedience. Jesus said, if ye love me, keep my commandments. John said
1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.......
.....22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 ¶ And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.....
....1 John 4:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Grace and works do harmonize. They are inseparable when considering our eternal destiny. Will our obedience save us? No. Will we be saved if we do not obey? No.

Obey what??? -- The law?? Or our obeying by keeping our faith, trust and confidence in the shed blood of Jesus on the cross.

KingJ · Jun 3, 2016

H. Richard said:
Obey what??? -- The law?? Or our obeying by keeping our faith, trust and confidence in the shed blood of Jesus on the cross.

Daily mental persuasion that blood > sin = saved?

According to Rom 10:9 we need confession with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and to believe in our heart that God raised Him from the dead before we are saved.

Confession with mouth that Jesus is Lord = 1. Agreement with all He taught. 2. Full submission to Him and His ways. 3. Public stand for Him.

Believe in our heart that a man who walked the earth is God of the universe = Only possible if it is revealed to us Matt 16:16-17 and 1 Cor 12:3.

A look at the FACTS

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